WWW Chat Transcript: 6/20/07, Alchemy |
 Jun 20 2007, 08:21 PM
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Organizing the Halo Rebellion  Posts: 3,301 Joined: 2:09pm April 16, 2006 Location: Being angelic, of course   |
Today's Text Chat Moderators: cloudpic, Expelliarmas, fawkes28, Prongs Patronus
[17:55] *** Nimthiriel has joined #lounge [17:55] *** MagicalKreacher has joined #lounge [17:55] *** fawkes28 has joined #lounge [17:55] <ProngsPatronus> hello, hello! [17:55] <Nimthiriel> heya smile [17:56] <ProngsPatronus> ready for the awesome chat tonight? [17:56] <Nimthiriel> kinda scared actually lol [17:57] <ProngsPatronus> aww [17:57] <Nimthiriel> i know nothing of alchemy [17:57] <Nimthiriel> i hope to learn something though [17:57] <ProngsPatronus> you will have fun, really! [17:57] <fawkes28> you will! [17:57] <Nimthiriel> lets hope! lol [17:57] *** beccabear747 has joined #lounge [17:57] <beccabear747> -waves- [17:57] <ProngsPatronus> hey, becca [17:58] <fawkes28> hey becca [17:58] <Nimthiriel> becca! [17:58] <beccabear747> 'ello 'ello [17:59] *** MagicalKreacher has quit [Bye] [18:00] <ProngsPatronus> ok [18:01] <ProngsPatronus> so, how has the week gone for everyone? [18:01] <Nimthiriel> pretty well thanks yours? [18:02] <ProngsPatronus> busy busy [18:02] <beccabear747> yes yes well [18:03] <fawkes28> my last day of work tomorrow! [18:03] <ProngsPatronus> woohoo! [18:03] <beccabear747> yay! [18:03] <fawkes28> good job, prongs! [18:04] <ProngsPatronus> lol [18:04] <beccabear747> i start driver's training next week... [18:04] *** Expelliarmas has joined #lounge [18:04] <fawkes28> hey expie [18:04] <ProngsPatronus> not a wooter or a squee-er, actually [18:04] <Expelliarmas> buenos aires, peeps [18:04] <ProngsPatronus> hey, expie! [18:05] <beccabear747> -hasds out pre-chat cupcakes- [18:05] <Expelliarmas> whoooo, cupcakes! [18:05] <ProngsPatronus> ooo--are they chocolate ? [18:05] <beccabear747> sure [18:05] <beccabear747> lol [18:06] *** chocolate89 has joined #lounge [18:06] *** nympheart has joined #lounge [18:06] <beccabear747> Choco taco! [18:06] <ProngsPatronus> lol [18:06] *** NikkiBell has joined #lounge [18:06] <chocolate89> hello becca! [18:06] <fawkes28> hey chocolate, nymph, and becca [18:06] <chocolate89> hhave we started? [18:07] <nympheart> hello [18:07] <chocolate89> hhello fawkes [18:07] *** NikkiBell has quit [Bye] [18:07] <beccabear747> hi fawkes [18:07] <chocolate89> hhello becca [18:07] <Nimthiriel> Choco! [18:07] <fawkes28> nope, at 7:15 [18:07] <ProngsPatronus> we will be starting in a bit--we like to get comfortable first [18:07] <chocolate89> awa hey Nim~ [18:07] <chocolate89> aahh ok [18:07] <chocolate89> well then hello everyone [18:07] <chocolate89> hhow goes it? [18:07] <ProngsPatronus> hello, hello! [18:08] *** Punky has joined #lounge [18:08] <chocolate89> PUNKY!! [18:08] <nympheart> hi punky [18:08] <ProngsPatronus> hey, punky! [18:08] <Nimthiriel> Punky! [18:08] <Punky> Hey! [18:08] <beccabear747> PUNKY!! [18:08] *** fantasyweaver has joined #lounge [18:08] <beccabear747> -hugs- [18:08] *** NYBookworm has joined #lounge [18:08] <ProngsPatronus> hey, fantasy, NYB [18:08] <nympheart> hi fantasy and NYB [18:08] <chocolate89> **misses punky* [18:08] <beccabear747> *does too* [18:09] <chocolate89> hhello nyb [18:09] <fantasyweaver> hi [18:09] <chocolate89> hhello [18:09] <chocolate89> i keep typing double Hhs... [18:09] <ProngsPatronus> glad you could join us [18:09] <beccabear747> lol [18:09] <fantasyweaver> my typing skills, are not good either [18:09] <chocolate89> gglad to be here [18:09] <chocolate89> oh my lord... [18:09] <Nimthiriel> hehehehe [18:10] *** NikkiBell has joined #lounge [18:10] <NikkiBell> hi everyone smile [18:10] <Nimthiriel> hi [18:10] <fantasyweaver> hello [18:10] <NikkiBell> I got kicked out for a sec there lol [18:10] <nympheart> hi Nikki [18:10] <fantasyweaver> kickedout? [18:10] <NikkiBell> yeah, i think i hit a button by mistake and it disconnected the chat [18:10] <fantasyweaver> Oh [18:10] <ProngsPatronus> oopsie [18:10] <chocolate89> i havent been to one of these innn ageees [18:11] <beccabear747> same [18:11] <NYBookworm> hi [18:11] <fantasyweaver> i never have [18:11] <chocolate89> never? [18:11] <chocolate89> owell they are awesome [18:11] <fantasyweaver> not this one [18:11] <NikkiBell> i have been to one before, but did not stay long [18:11] <fantasyweaver> why not? [18:11] *** DorisTLC has joined #lounge [18:11] <chocolate89> hey doris! [18:11] <nympheart> hi doris [18:11] <Punky> I'm looking forward to a discussion on Alchemy, I don't know much at all about it [18:11] <fawkes28> sometimes snuffles acts up [18:11] <NikkiBell> i got bored lol [18:11] <Punky> Hi Doris [18:11] <beccabear747> hi Doris! [18:11] <fantasyweaver> hello [18:11] <nympheart> same here Punky [18:11] <DorisTLC> Hi everyone, sorry I'm late! I forget the time difference! [18:12] *** AlchemistApprentice has joined #lounge [18:12] <NikkiBell> Hi Doris smile [18:12] *** RedEft has joined #lounge [18:12] <DorisTLC> I love LOVE this topic! [18:12] <ProngsPatronus> hey, doris! [18:12] <nympheart> hi AA and RedEft [18:12] <DorisTLC> Hi Nikki, and Hello Alchemist! [18:12] <chocolate89> really doris? [18:12] <NikkiBell> Hi Alchemist and Red [18:12] <chocolate89> why do you like it so much? [18:12] <AlchemistApprentice> hey all [18:12] <DorisTLC> I've a masters in literature - and LOVE the history, Science, and the beauty of Alchemy, all blended together [18:13] *** Love4Fawkes has joined #lounge [18:13] <Nimthiriel> i still dont understand it lol, ive been reading about it all week...hopefully this will help me [18:13] <AlchemistApprentice> hi all sorry getting my text set [18:13] <beccabear747> sounds fascinating [18:13] <nympheart> hi Love [18:13] <NikkiBell> I have a degree in Lit too...specifically medieval [18:13] <chocolate89> hhello love!!!! [18:13] <ProngsPatronus> hey, AL [18:13] <Love4Fawkes> hi all! [18:13] <chocolate89> and sounds great doris [18:13] <Nimthiriel> hi Love [18:13] <AlchemistApprentice> which color can I NOT use? [19:15] *** fawkes28 has joined #lounge [19:15] <chocolate89> i i wish it did to love [19:15] <chocolate89> lol jk [19:15] <Nimthiriel> I may not be talking too much tonight more just reading! I doubt i'll have much input [19:15] *** NikkiBell has quit [Bye] [19:15] *** NikkiBell has joined #lounge [19:15] <DorisTLC> Expie - I had a prof tell me to take it in small chuncks, and it will stick. Eventually it all just makes sense, you see references to it in lgreat iterature everywhere! [19:16] <ProngsPatronus> ol, al [19:16] <NikkiBell> wow chat does NOT like me tonight [19:16] <fawkes28> i am sure you will be fine, nim - we will all learn something [19:16] <NikkiBell> how do i change color? [19:16] <fantasyweaver> should I not have joined this? I mean I don't know a thing bout alchemy [19:16] <DorisTLC> We'll kick it for you Nikki [19:16] <Expelliarmas> is there an "Alchemy for Dummies"? [19:16] <NikkiBell> haha Doris [19:16] <beccabear747> lol [19:16] <DorisTLC> FW - you'll love it! [19:16] <Love4Fawkes> i know nothing about alchemy [19:16] <Nimthiriel> lol [19:16] <AlchemistApprentice> actually there is! [19:16] *** h_turner has joined #lounge [19:16] <DorisTLC> These girls are the best [19:16] <Expelliarmas> that figures! [19:16] <Love4Fawkes> mental note: buy alchemy for dummies [19:16] <NikkiBell> How do I change the color of my font? [19:16] <beccabear747> hehe [19:16] <fawkes28> time to start the chat! [19:16] <fawkes28> We will be starting the discussion in a few minute. You're not going to be able to type for a few minutes while we make some announcements, please bear with us, you'll be able to type again soon. [19:16] <Expelliarmas> fantasy we're in the same boat [19:17] <fawkes28> There may be times during the chat when a moderator will want to PM something to you. Please keep an eye on the top of your screen, right next to the button with #Lounge on it. A button will appear with one of the mods' names on it. If you see that appear, click on it to see the PM that has been sent to you by that mod. [19:17] *** h_turner has quit [Bye] [19:17] <fawkes28> You won't be able to reply to that PM, but if you could just say something like "Sooner, got it" in the main chat, to let us know that you have seen it, that will be great. We'd also like to remind you that the rules of the Lounge also apply here in the Corner Booth, and may be found here: http://www.leakylounge.com/?act=rules [19:17] <fawkes28> If you need to contact us during the chat, send one, or all, of us a PM on the Lounge. We will be checking them regularly, but if we haven't replied after a little while then please let us know here that you have sent a PM. Thanks for your cooperation! [19:17] <fawkes28> While its easy to drift off in various directions, let's all try to have a fun chat by sticking to the topic for today. OK, moving on to the topic for the chat! [19:17] <ProngsPatronus> In a 1998 interview with The Herald, Jo said, “To invent this wizard world, I've learned a ridiculous amount about alchemy. Perhaps much of it I'll never use in the books, but I have to know in detail what magic can and cannot do in order to set the parameters and establish the stories' internal logic." [19:18] <ProngsPatronus> Jo clearly found studying alchemy to be important in writing her series so let’s explore what alchemy is and how it relates to the Harry Potter series. Special thanks to Arianhrod for simplifying alchemy in Potterverse by writing her two brilliantly written Scribbulus essays which can be found here: http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/#scribbulus:essay:116 [19:18] <ProngsPatronus> Let’s start with the basics! How do you define alchemy? [19:18] <nympheart> nikki, on the right of the bottom of the chat screen there's arrows that you have to click and you can change colors [19:19] <AlchemistApprentice> to me alchemy is science, mystic and philosphy all as one [19:19] <Expelliarmas> yes, someone please define it using very small words [19:19] <ProngsPatronus> alchemy, to me, is the search for enlightenment [19:19] <NikkiBell> awesome thanks [19:19] <fawkes28> alchemy seems like it is the forerunner of chemistry [19:19] <ProngsPatronus> yes, chamistry grew from alchemy [19:19] <NikkiBell> That essay is great. I was looking for some info earlier to get me ready for the chat. [19:19] <AlchemistApprentice> yes each part having a greater meaning and quest PP [19:19] <chocolate89> i agreee prongs [19:19] <fantasyweaver> um, a study of elements and the things that come form them [19:19] <ProngsPatronus> *chemistry [19:20] <chocolate89> well it can mean so much more than that fantasy [19:20] <fantasyweaver> ok [19:20] <ProngsPatronus> good, al [19:20] <DorisTLC> alchemy is various things - it's a science at it's basic core [19:20] <nympheart> the idea was to find out how to turn any metal into gold, but it is also a quest for the alchemist's self-fulfillment [19:20] <fawkes28> i love how you need to be pure of heart in order to get anywhere in alchemy [19:20] <AlchemistApprentice> (winks ) thanks and as fantasy Choclate fantasy can be found in every science [19:21] <fawkes28> only certain people are able to do it [19:21] <ProngsPatronus> and a philosophy--because, when alchemy developed, these were not seperate disciplines [19:21] <fantasyweaver> isn't that always the case, fawkes [19:21] <AlchemistApprentice> only those with the pure of heart or soul if you are to follow the texts and tales [19:21] <NikkiBell> So, what is the overall definition then [19:21] <chocolate89> well it doesnt really have a true definition [19:21] <AlchemistApprentice> I can't see any true ONE defintion [19:22] <chocolate89> iit can mean many things [19:22] <fawkes28> it is a matter of interpretation [19:22] <NikkiBell> I always that it was the practice of early medicine. Or am I confusing it? [19:22] <ProngsPatronus> it is a school of thought that combines, science, philosophy, and mysticism [19:22] <chocolate89> depends on how you look at it [19:22] <Love4Fawkes> i'm now even more confused. . . lol [19:22] <beccabear747> same love... [19:22] <AlchemistApprentice> exactly so many facets to alchemy - everyofusingne can see what they wish too that is why it can be con [19:22] <ProngsPatronus> it is something akin to the medieval Theory of Everything [19:22] <AlchemistApprentice> sorry typing one handed [19:22] <DorisTLC> Good definition Prongs - it's as complex as humanity [19:23] <fawkes28> and one of its goals to to create the philosopher's stone - correct? [19:23] <ProngsPatronus> yes--that is the end product [19:23] <AlchemistApprentice> yes [19:23] <chocolate89> yes [19:23] <fawkes28> however, for good purposes not bad [19:23] <Love4Fawkes> ok, I can get that prongs [19:23] <ProngsPatronus> There are seven stages of transformation in alchemy and thus we have seven books in the series. Each book represents a stage; however, the seven stages are also represented in each book. [19:24] <NikkiBell> So, it was basically a study of various sciences, answers to things that happened, etc. but the overarching goal was to develop [19:24] <NikkiBell> the sorcerer's stone? [19:24] <ProngsPatronus> The first stage is called calcination, which is the break down of the confused mass. [19:24] <fantasyweaver> almost anything can be used for eatiher purpose [19:24] <nympheart> Harry is the confused mass? [19:24] <chocolate89> definitely [19:24] <NikkiBell> Yes, I agree [19:24] <AlchemistApprentice> yeah Nikki it is the driving base but as stated so much more [19:25] <AlchemistApprentice> well if you see Harry as the actual stone others see Harry as the alchemist [19:25] <NikkiBell> Interesting [19:25] <AlchemistApprentice> aka apprentice under DD the other alchemist [19:25] <NikkiBell> Sorry for changing colors so much am trying to find one my computer like [19:25] <NikkiBell> s [19:25] <chocolate89> hm... i like that alchemist.... [19:25] <fantasyweaver> if arry is the alchemist what is the stone [19:25] <NikkiBell> How can Harry be the stone? He found the stone in the text [19:26] <ProngsPatronus> There are seven stages of transformation in alchemy and thus we have seven books in the series. Each book represents a stage; however, the seven stages are also represented in each book. [19:26] <ProngsPatronus> The first stage is called calcination, which is the break down of the confused mass. [19:26] <ProngsPatronus> It is the stage where the person begins to evaluate his life. How has Harry completed this process? [19:27] <nympheart> it's symbolic, nikki [19:27] *** beccabear747 has quit [Bye] [19:27] <ProngsPatronus> lol--ok, now we have the full question all in one place [19:27] <NikkiBell> lol [19:27] *** beccabear747 has joined #lounge [19:27] <Expelliarmas> woot! [19:27] <Love4Fawkes> ok, found it in wikipedia and maybe I understand it a little more. [19:27] <beccabear747> oopsy [19:27] <NYBookworm> so would that be in the first book when he learns he's a wizard (or at DD's wrap up? [19:27] <NikkiBell> Harry began to evaluate his life as time passed. In the first book, he learned the basics about his past. [19:27] <Expelliarmas> Well, Harry did go from thinking himself a Muggle to gaining entrance into the wizard world [19:27] <AlchemistApprentice> he has not finished as par the series but in the first book he did finish IMHO [19:28] <ProngsPatronus> in the first book, Harry is the confued mass [19:28] <nympheart> I think he started evaluating when he discovered he was a wizard and that his parents were murdered [19:28] <NikkiBell> The evaluation process is still going on for him. [19:28] <AlchemistApprentice> exactly expelliarmas [19:28] <ProngsPatronus> unfocused, and unaware [19:28] <Love4Fawkes> I agree nikki [19:28] <Expelliarmas> He learned his parents were murdered and did not die in a car crash [19:28] <Expelliarmas> and that his mother's love saved him [19:28] <Love4Fawkes> but I think the process is ongoing for most of us [19:28] <Nimthiriel> yes... [19:28] <fantasyweaver> He has started to enter the wisaring world [19:28] *** fantasyweaver has quit [Bye] [19:28] <chocolate89> i think hes still continuing [19:28] *** fantasyweaver has joined #lounge [19:28] <AlchemistApprentice> unware of his true abilities [19:28] <chocolate89> and its an ongoing process between him and voldemort [19:28] <chocolate89> and wont be fully finished until the final show down [19:28] <Expelliarmas> watch out for that backspace button, fantasy, it will boot you from the chat [19:29] <AlchemistApprentice> absolutley he is still finding more about himself in each book [19:29] <fawkes28> just the transformation from regular person to a wizard - that is a huge step to break down [19:29] <fantasyweaver> sorry the computer wouldn't let me type [19:29] <ProngsPatronus> so he is the Prima Materica [19:29] <NikkiBell> As time passes in HP1, he learns more history about his past and the life he was uneducated about. He continued to evaluate from thereon. [19:29] <chocolate89> exactly [19:29] <chocolate89> still doing so now [19:29] <fantasyweaver> he also learns about his present [19:29] <NikkiBell> Prongs what is that? [19:29] <Love4Fawkes> Harry really began evaluating his life when he finds out that he is the one that needs to defeat LV [19:29] <AlchemistApprentice> is there other Prima Materica characters though [19:29] <ProngsPatronus> Prima Materica=confused mass [19:30] <chocolate89> that Love, is what i would call the halfway point [19:30] <fawkes28> so he needs to break things down in order to go forward with his life and journey [19:30] <nympheart> he can't be the completed stone or alchemist until the stages are all the way through [19:30] <NikkiBell> Good point, nymph [19:30] <NikkiBell> Neville appears as a confused mass if you ask me [19:30] <NikkiBell> lol [19:30] <AlchemistApprentice> not only break down things- but conquer challenges to reach piniacle [19:30] <ProngsPatronus> correct, nymph [19:31] <chocolate89> well, in a way, all three of the trio could be looked at as confused mass [19:31] <fawkes28> he has to learn who he is first before he can help others [19:31] <ProngsPatronus> so, the first book is a breaking down of the preconceptions of his life [19:31] <chocolate89> as we are following the three of them through their life evalutaions.... [19:31] <AlchemistApprentice> yes and isn't intresting how close by phophecy and by birthdates Harry and Neville are- are they both confused mass [19:31] <ProngsPatronus> in the Muggle world, he is a ghost [19:31] <NikkiBell> Right [19:31] <ProngsPatronus> in the WW, he is The Boy Who Lived [19:31] <fantasyweaver> who [19:31] <fawkes28> everything he ever believe turned out to not be true - that is a huge thing to get over [19:31] *** As_Weasley_as_I_wannabe has joined #lounge [19:31] <ProngsPatronus> hey, as weasley! [19:31] <AlchemistApprentice> LOL [19:31] <Love4Fawkes> sure is fawkes [19:32] <NikkiBell> Hi Weasley [19:32] <Expelliarmas> actually, fawkes, in some ways that was a good thing [19:32] <As_Weasley_as_I_wannabe> Hi! [19:32] <Expelliarmas> hello awaiw [19:32] <ProngsPatronus> it is necessary [19:32] <NikkiBell> So the breakdown of preconceived notions serves as calcination in the series via HP1. [19:32] <As_Weasley_as_I_wannabe> I know zilch about alchemy, so I thought I'd lurk 'n' learn. K? [19:32] <fantasyweaver> very good, it's why we got the series [19:32] <ProngsPatronus> yes, nikki [19:32] <nympheart> good, as weasley, you're about where the rest of us are [19:32] <AlchemistApprentice> so how does the inner search work for the confused characters are they all then on a quest and do they all become alchemists? [19:32] <fawkes28> of course, As_Weasley_as_I_wannabe [19:33] <ProngsPatronus> In Harry Potter and the Philosopher’s Stone we are introduced to Nicholas Flamel, who was an actual alchemist who is said to have died in the 1400’s. What made Jo decide to incorporate the character of Flamel in her novel rather than just the use of the Philosopher’s Stone? [19:33] <ProngsPatronus> I think it is a symbol of just what the PS actually does in the Potterverse [19:33] <chocolate89> To show that it can be used for good reasons, not just bad. [19:33] <Expelliarmas> well, the Muggles would believe Flamel died. Wizards would know better. [19:33] <chocolate89> there are people who have a purpose for it [19:33] <nympheart> I think she enjoys turning legend into the reality of the books, for one [19:33] <NikkiBell> I think she wanted to add some substance to her fictional text. [19:33] <fantasyweaver> i think to give the idea that it really is our worlsd [19:33] <DorisTLC> I think it gives it that feeling of authenticity [19:34] <Love4Fawkes> well someone had to have made the philosopher's stone and using a real muggle ties the wizarding world into our world [19:34] <fawkes28> i think it is interesting because Jo used takes events from the present to explain the wizarding world so i am fascinated that she chose to incorporate flamel even though he lived in the 1400's [19:34] <ProngsPatronus> and it also sets up the reasons for LV wanting the Stone [19:34] <Love4Fawkes> like just maybe it could be true. . .lol [19:34] <NikkiBell> She wanted to use some authentic information that is true to make the book seem all the more real so her readers could better connect to it. [19:34] <fawkes28> oh, i like that Doris [19:34] <NikkiBell> The issue though, is how many readers really knew about there actually being a Flamel when they read HP1? I didn't know until tonight. [19:34] <Love4Fawkes> that's what I was trying to say Nikki, you said it so much better! [19:34] <fawkes28> it really does - makes you feel like you are back in that time [19:35] <ProngsPatronus> I think that, in Europe, it is well-known [19:35] <NikkiBell> fawkes lol 5 points for us both! [19:35] <Expelliarmas> I knew there was a flamel and with the internet people could just google it, plus i believe he's mentioned in the DaVinci Code [19:35] *** LandonWoodrow has joined #lounge [19:35] <chocolate89> he is [19:35] <As_Weasley_as_I_wannabe> It could be as simple as getting us all to fixate on Flamel, and by way of Flamel, the series. It causes us to want to ask "Why?". [19:35] <fantasyweaver> i didn't know about flamel i knew the Pilosophers stone was supposed to be real [19:35] <fawkes28> I think by having flamel in the book and be Dumbledore's partner, it also gives us a sense of how great and intelligent dumbledore is [19:35] <Love4Fawkes> i noticed it in the davinci code too [19:35] <NikkiBell> I am reading about alchemy on Wikipedia right now. It is interesting that it says schools and institutions persued alchemy years ago. Y [19:36] <As_Weasley_as_I_wannabe> Hi, LandonWoodrow! [19:36] <AlchemistApprentice> I think Flamel is a clue as well as authenticity [19:36] <NikkiBell> It mentions Europe, China, etc. but not England. [19:36] <Love4Fawkes> a clue to what? [19:36] <ProngsPatronus> what kind of clue, al? [19:36] <NikkiBell> Love I never noticed that [19:36] <nympheart> a clue to the alchemy throughout the series, you mean? [19:36] <AlchemistApprentice> to how she jk- learned and shape some of the plot and charcters [19:36] <fawkes28> it definitely bring a historic feel [19:36] <AlchemistApprentice> and yes how she correlates history and fantasy [19:37] <chocolate89> well it also helps alotttt with the plot [19:37] <ProngsPatronus> and it makes the Wizarding World timeless, in a real sense [19:37] <chocolate89> its not some crazy outlandish idea, it actually has a meaning [19:37] <AlchemistApprentice> well there are some that feel alchemy is only rel;ated to the first book only [19:37] <ProngsPatronus> yes, chocolate [19:37] <Love4Fawkes> i guess we'll learn in this chat how its related to other books! [19:37] <AlchemistApprentice> very true- lots of meaning and hints to the plot lines throughout the series [19:37] <fawkes28> it does seem to tie most especially to the first book but she also wasnt sure if there would be any more books published [19:38] <ProngsPatronus> Severus Snape is known as the catalyst, or the vitriol, which is the most important element in alchemy and is the one in which all other reactions take place. The vitriol is present in all seven stages of alchemy. How did Snape fulfill his role as the vitriol in the first book? [19:38] <fantasyweaver> i need to go [19:38] *** fantasyweaver has quit [Bye] [19:38] <fawkes28> Snape fulfills this role perfectly [19:38] <NikkiBell> bye fantasy [19:38] <ProngsPatronus> thanks for coming, fantasyweaver [19:38] <NikkiBell> Harry's reactions to Snape? [19:38] <fawkes28> we were all fooled by him and thought he was the bad guy [19:38] <Expelliarmas> well, he sure pushes Harry [19:38] <AlchemistApprentice> (raises hand) he shapes Harry's reactions pushing buttons and causes- reactions [19:38] <Love4Fawkes> he certainly created a reaction within Harry! [19:38] <nympheart> Harry suspected him as the thief and drove him to find the stone and LV [19:38] <NikkiBell> Right Alchemist [19:38] <chocolate89> sSnape is there to change the course of everything througout the first book [19:39] <ProngsPatronus> he also focuses Harry, I think [19:39] <ProngsPatronus> distills, him, in a way [19:39] <fawkes28> he definitely caused reactions from Harry and it motivated Harry to get the stone before he did [19:39] <AlchemistApprentice> and books to follow- he is the most egminac character and why because he is the spider another important alchemy symbol [19:39] <Nimthiriel> yes he did Fawkes [19:39] *** cloudpic has joined #lounge [19:39] <fawkes28> i dont know how passionate he would have been about getting the stone if it was anyone else but snape [19:40] <fawkes28> he made it his mission to stop snape [19:40] <fawkes28> hey cloudpic [19:40] <AlchemistApprentice> lol fawkes- yeah cloudpic [19:40] <NikkiBell> But this is the thing, if JK wanted to add a sense of authenticity to the texts, why would she focus on alchemy if it was not a dominant science in England? [19:40] <DorisTLC> He also serves as Harry's teacher, and the source of Harry's anger much of the time [19:40] * cloudpic waves to all Alchemy fans! [19:40] <ProngsPatronus> hey, cloudpic! [19:40] <NikkiBell> hey cloudpic [19:41] <ProngsPatronus> we are talking about Snape as vitriol [19:41] <chocolate89> hwa hey clould [19:41] <AlchemistApprentice> ahh but alchemy is in many countries and her plots always include equality among all [19:41] <chocolate89> ccloud* [19:41] <fawkes28> classroom teacher, if you could call him that, Doris [19:41] <NikkiBell> From what I have read just now it was studied fiercly in China, India, Ancient Persia, etc. [19:41] <NikkiBell> Did it also pop up in England? [19:41] <ProngsPatronus> nikki, I think that she views her form of magic and alchemy as integral [19:41] <DorisTLC> But Harry does learn from him, even if his methods are wrong [19:41] <AlchemistApprentice> Snape is the spider and in many ways the "science" teacher of Hogwarts which is rather intresting [19:42] <NikkiBell> Interesting [19:42] <ProngsPatronus> yes, al [19:42] <Love4Fawkes> that is interesting Al [19:42] <ProngsPatronus> a spider....hmmmm.... [19:42] <NikkiBell> Doris, which makes it ironic that Mad-Eye Moody squashed and tortured spiders in HP4 [19:42] <nympheart> what does the spider symbolize? [19:42] <NikkiBell> Could that be foreshadowing something? [19:42] <AlchemistApprentice> he is not the alchemist but teaching the rest of the students the science of magical chemists- [19:42] <AlchemistApprentice> yes Doris! [19:42] * Expelliarmas sees Snape as more of an overgrown bat [19:42] <chocolate89> hehee [19:43] <ProngsPatronus> lol, expie [19:43] <NikkiBell> lol [19:43] <DorisTLC> LOL Expie that is good [19:43] <beccabear747> lol [19:43] *** RedEft has quit [Bye] [19:43] <Love4Fawkes> lol [19:43] <DorisTLC> but he's a spider - with bat like characteristics [19:43] <NikkiBell> Snape and Mad-Eye always had issues. Perhaps this means something for HP7 [19:43] <nympheart> definitely a spider, he's spun a web of lies no matter how you see him [19:43] *** Punky has quit [Bye] [19:43] <AlchemistApprentice> heheheheh hmmmm help me PP spider symbol..... [19:43] <NikkiBell> bye punky [19:43] <chocolate89> Snape and Mad Eye are very diffrent for very different purposes [19:43] <fawkes28> yes, he has nymph [19:43] <As_Weasley_as_I_wannabe> But it wasn't Moody who had the prob with Snape, it was Barty, Jr. [19:43] <AlchemistApprentice> right think of Snape as the spy and the web he weaves incorporating the charcters reactions [19:43] <NikkiBell> of course [19:43] <NikkiBell> true true [19:44] <ProngsPatronus> Neville Longbottom was introduced to the reader while looking for his toad, Trevor. In alchemy, the toad is seen as a lowly creature who does not begin to emerge until the 5th stage (OotP), with some help. Do your beliefs about Neville in Philosopher’s Stone coincide with the alchemical beliefs of the toad? [19:44] <chocolate89> Well [19:44] <nympheart> wow, Neville definitely emerged in OOtP [19:44] <Nimthiriel> it does certianly fit.. [19:44] <chocolate89> yes that [19:44] <AlchemistApprentice> (does horseshack wave of hand)YES! [19:44] <NikkiBell> Yes, 100% [19:44] <Love4Fawkes> oh, wow. that is so true! [19:44] <NikkiBell> brb [19:45] <As_Weasley_as_I_wannabe> I felt such pity for Neville in SS/PS. I actually cheered for him in GoF and OotP. [19:45] <Expelliarmas> well, I never saw Neville as being lowly; he was the pivotal person who got the points to push Gryffindor to a win in the House Cup [19:45] <ProngsPatronus> tell us about the toad, Al [19:45] <Love4Fawkes> no, Neville was never lowly, but his skills certainly were [19:45] <fawkes28> see, I have never seen Neville as a lowly creature [19:45] <AlchemistApprentice> hey I was looking for help with spider from you hold on [19:45] <Expelliarmas> but I do agree the OOTP was as much a turning point for Neville as Harry [19:45] <chocolate89> and his self confidence [19:45] <ProngsPatronus> expie, I think that, though we know Neville is gold, others at Hogwarts see him as lowly [19:45] <chocolate89> me to expelliarmu [19:45] <cloudpic> Neville was considered lowly, first by his own family and to some extent by the teachers/students at Hogwarts [19:45] <nympheart> and he saw himself that way [19:45] <fawkes28> i think he did not have a lot of confidence in himself but he always had bravery - he proves himself greatly when he stands up to his friends [19:46] <Love4Fawkes> it was in Ootp that he showed some skill and then in HBP McGonagall even compliments him and he didn't do too bad on his OWLS [19:46] *** RedEft has joined #lounge [19:46] <ProngsPatronus> wb, redeft [19:46] <cloudpic> He was missing a key ingredient... [19:46] <AlchemistApprentice> well there is the difference in toads and frogs- some say toads are omens of bad happens while frogs are rebirth [19:47] *** Val_Halla has joined #lounge [19:47] <nympheart> hi Val [19:47] <As_Weasley_as_I_wannabe> Yes, cloudpic. [19:47] <beccabear747> hey Val [19:47] <cloudpic> Odd though, Trevor is a fairly pleasant being in the series... connected to Neville, but the other Toad is vile [19:47] <AlchemistApprentice> yes cloudpic [19:47] <As_Weasley_as_I_wannabe> Hem, hem. [19:47] <ProngsPatronus> the fifth book, though, marks his elevation from "toad" to a person more confident in himself [19:47] <chocolate89> elol [19:47] <cloudpic> although Trevor seems always to abandon Neville [19:47] <Expelliarmas> well, trevor is forever trying to escape with countless bids for freedom [19:47] <Expelliarmas> psyche, cloudpic! [19:47] <cloudpic> LOL Expie [19:47] <ProngsPatronus> we also have Umbridge, the "Toad", in that book [19:48] <AlchemistApprentice> ok all I hate to go but i have to leave- life with kids [19:48] <fawkes28> there must be some kind of symbolism with him always trying to escape [19:48] <Expelliarmas> well, that Toad shows up in OOTP [19:48] <AlchemistApprentice> have a good chat!!! [19:48] <beccabear747> bye Al! [19:48] <nympheart> bye Al [19:48] <Love4Fawkes> me to Al. have to put the son to bed, but I'll be back. [19:48] <ProngsPatronus> thank, for coming, Al [19:48] <cloudpic> bye, Al! [19:48] *** Dreamteam has joined #lounge [19:48] <Nimthiriel> bye AL [19:48] <chocolate89> bye bye [19:48] *** Love4Fawkes has quit [Bye] [19:48] <As_Weasley_as_I_wannabe> Maybe it's showing Neville's inner battle of trying to overcome his lowliness. [19:48] <ProngsPatronus> hey, dreamteam [19:48] <Expelliarmas> perhaps the countless bids for freedom are symbolic of Neville looking for his own freedom [19:48] *** Piewacket has joined #lounge [19:48] <DorisTLC> Bye Al [19:48] <fawkes28> hey Piewacket [19:48] <AlchemistApprentice> bye I'll try to come back later [19:48] <fawkes28> smile [19:48] <ProngsPatronus> good point, expie [19:48] <DorisTLC> Hi Piewacket and Dreamteam [19:48] <fawkes28> come back soon, AL [19:49] *** AlchemistApprentice has quit [Bye] [19:49] <fawkes28> hey dreamteam [19:49] <cloudpic> Dunno... I always thought Trevor was just busy... not fleeing [19:49] <Dreamteam> Hi everyone [19:49] <Piewacket> Hey Doris [19:49] <DorisTLC> Good point [19:49] <Piewacket> hiya fawkes 28 [19:49] <As_Weasley_as_I_wannabe> Odd that Trevor is always missing, yet always found. [19:49] <cloudpic> But I'm not clear what Trevor has to do with alchemy? Does his connection to Neville give us any insights? [19:49] <NikkiBell> back, hope i did not miss too much lol [19:49] <DorisTLC> Trevor is evolving [19:49] <beccabear747> wb [19:49] <DorisTLC> like a toad turning into a prince [19:49] <Piewacket> is there a protector link in alchemy? [19:50] <DorisTLC> Trevor is the symbol [19:50] <chocolate89> why do u say that doris? [19:50] <fawkes28> that is interesting, Doris [19:50] <ProngsPatronus> yes, Doris [19:50] <nympheart> I like that doris [19:50] <NikkiBell> I agree with Doris. Neville is going to be huge in the last book if you ask me. [19:50] <DorisTLC> Look at how Neville has evolved, of all the students, he's been the one who has changed the most. He's always been brave, but he's grown in his own belif in himself [19:50] <fawkes28> Neville has grown but i would never say that he was lowly like the toad is symbolized [19:50] <ProngsPatronus> the whole idea is that a common substance is turned into something precious--gold [19:50] <As_Weasley_as_I_wannabe> Totally! [19:50] <Piewacket> I agree...but I didn't think that because of alchemy... [19:51] <DorisTLC> Right Prngs [19:51] <ProngsPatronus> in Neville, we see that process, as well as Harry [19:51] <NikkiBell> I think Harry and Neville have changed the most [19:51] <Piewacket> i agree [19:51] <DorisTLC> it's the symbolism - something seemingly lowly - turns into something precious [19:51] <fawkes28> that is a great explaination, prongs [19:51] <As_Weasley_as_I_wannabe> I believe that Neville will be a huge asset to Harry in this book. [19:51] <NikkiBell> Although the majority of the changes for Harry have been in the physical world around him, but Neville is more internal [19:51] <ProngsPatronus> alchemy is full of symbols [19:51] <As_Weasley_as_I_wannabe> Unfortunately, I fear that it will be in the form of self-sacrifice. [19:51] <ProngsPatronus> a code of sorts [19:51] <NikkiBell> I agree [19:52] <ProngsPatronus> Jo has used these symbols in her characters, as well [19:52] <fawkes28> yes, nikki - neville has to face his own demons - we see that with his boggart in PoA [19:52] <NikkiBell> What are some of the other symbols in alchemy? [19:52] <DorisTLC> Yes she has - her work is rich in symbollism! [19:52] <Expelliarmas> not to worry, NikkiBell, we'll get to them [19:52] <NikkiBell> definitely [19:52] <NikkiBell> ok lol [19:52] <ProngsPatronus> Harry is signaled out as a unique individual when McGonagall places him on the Quidditch Team as the youngest player in over one hundred years at Hogwarts. Harry’s position on the team is Seeker and his goal is to get the Golden Snitch. What are your thoughts on Jo interweaving Quidditch into the storyline and its relationship to Alchemy? [19:53] <DorisTLC> Harry is chasing the gold! [19:53] <cloudpic> Alchemy and Quidditch *mouth drops open*? [19:53] <nympheart> the Snitch is the Stone? [19:53] <NikkiBell> I think Quidditch was put in merely to make the texts appealing to young boys who might not have otherwise read the series. [19:53] <chocolate89> twell [19:53] <fawkes28> he is seeking enlightenment [19:53] <DorisTLC> Or "Seeking" the gold to use the word correctly [19:53] <chocolate89> think of quidditch as a process [19:53] <NikkiBell> I like the idea of Harry seeking a future or answers to his world [19:53] <ProngsPatronus> yes [19:53] <chocolate89> where the final solution is caputring the gold [19:53] <cloudpic> I saw Quidditch as symbolic, but never considered the connection to alchemy... fascinating [19:53] <Expelliarmas> or seeking the solution to Voldemort [19:53] <ProngsPatronus> it is interesting to me that the game doesn't stop until the Snitch is found [19:53] <DorisTLC> And Capturing the gold, makes one win most of the time [19:54] <NikkiBell> cloudpic how symbolic? [19:54] <fawkes28> he alone is the one who can "win the game" which is really what he has to do with voldemort [19:54] <chocolate89> rexactly doris [19:54] <ProngsPatronus> which is the whole point in alchemy [19:54] <nympheart> are the players connected to alchemy? [19:54] * cloudpic says that's for another chat... as it's not alchemic, Nikki [19:54] <NikkiBell> fawkes excellent point [19:54] <fawkes28> i think they are, nymph [19:54] <DorisTLC> And - he can't win the game without a missing piece! Which is a snitch - or a golden object [19:54] <chocolate89> there are 7 players [19:54] <chocolate89> which is another symbol for alchemy [19:54] * Expelliarmas *cough*locket*cough* [19:54] *** Dreamteam left #lounge [] [19:55] <ProngsPatronus> there are seven players on the team,. too [19:55] <fawkes28> i think it is symbolic that Ron is the Keeper - just as he is Harry's protector and friend [19:55] <NikkiBell> 7 players like 7 books? 7 symbols? 7 phases? [19:55] <ProngsPatronus> yes [19:55] <chocolate89> exactly [19:55] <ProngsPatronus> the number seven is related to alchemy [19:55] <ProngsPatronus> it is thought of as the perfect number [19:55] <NikkiBell> 7 also relates to the 7 Deadly Sins [19:55] <DorisTLC> it's a magic number [19:55] <fawkes28> yes, nikki - seven is a powerful number [19:55] <fawkes28> the beaters represents the obstacles that Harry faces [19:55] *** cloudpic has quit [Bye] [19:55] <DorisTLC> 7 wonders of the world [19:55] <As_Weasley_as_I_wannabe> THE powerful number. [19:55] *** SevenofNine has joined #lounge [19:55] <ProngsPatronus> there is also the Keeper--which was ron [19:56] <nympheart> speak of the devil, hello seven [19:56] <NikkiBell> Hi sevenofnine [19:56] <ProngsPatronus> Weasley is our king... [19:56] <Expelliarmas> heya, seven [19:56] <SevenofNine> Greetings everyone! [19:56] <ProngsPatronus> hey, seven! [19:56] <DorisTLC> Just the names of the positions, Ron keeps, Harry Seeks - those fascinate me [19:56] <fawkes28> hey seven [19:56] <chocolate89> i agree doris [19:56] <SevenofNine> *waves* [19:56] <Nimthiriel> hey sevin [19:56] <Nimthiriel> seven* [19:56] <NikkiBell> I never thought of it that way Doris [19:56] <fawkes28> Hermione watches on the sidelines - but in SS she does save Harry from falling which i think is symbolic [19:57] <SevenofNine> Ginny chases? [19:57] <nympheart> and seeks too, seven [19:57] <chocolate89> normally yes [19:57] <DorisTLC> She gives knowledge - [19:57] <ProngsPatronus> the Keeper, the Beaters, Seeker, Chasers [19:57] <SevenofNine> Good point nymph [19:57] <SevenofNine> I forgot about that one. [19:57] <DorisTLC> Ginny chases - but she doesn't chase the gold, only harry does [19:57] <fawkes28> I also think it is interesting Ginny takes over as a seeker for Harry - she really is his rock in HBP [19:57] *** NYBookworm has quit [Bye] [19:57] <ProngsPatronus> she chases Harry, who is the gold [19:57] <Expelliarmas> she was also seeker in OOTP [19:57] <SevenofNine> I can see Fred & George as Beaters outside of the Quidditch Pitch [19:58] <fawkes28> yes, seven [19:58] *** CarpeDiem has joined #lounge [19:58] *** bubblehead has joined #lounge [19:58] <SevenofNine> And she helped them seek Sirius out [19:58] <DorisTLC> She fills in for Harry when he can't do his job expie [19:58] <NikkiBell> Hi carpe and bubble [19:58] <ProngsPatronus> hey, Carpe, bubble [19:58] <chocolate89> hello carpe!!! [19:58] <SevenofNine> *grins wickedly* Right Doris [19:58] <bubblehead> hi everyone [19:58] <fawkes28> but i also think beaters represent obstacles - perhaps the death eaters? [19:58] <NikkiBell> I can't remember OOTP or HBP [19:58] <CarpeDiem> Hi all! [19:58] <NikkiBell> I am rereading so I can pick up on everything again [19:58] <fawkes28> hey carpe and bubble [19:58] <As_Weasley_as_I_wannabe> Ginny is often compared to a cat. Are cats related to alchemy? [19:58] <SevenofNine> Hey carpe [19:58] <DorisTLC> Hey Carpe [19:58] <SevenofNine> And bubble too [19:59] <SevenofNine> Okay, so I'm dumb [19:59] <SevenofNine> I don't get the Alchemy thing. [19:59] <DorisTLC> No you are not [19:59] <NikkiBell> it is really complex...i barely get it [19:59] <SevenofNine> What is the significance? [19:59] <ProngsPatronus> there is the Green Lion, which is an alchemical symbol [19:59] <fawkes28> you can get it [19:59] <chocolate89> and Ginny is a gryffindor... [19:59] <NikkiBell> green lion woah oxymoron there... green for Slytherin lion for Gryffindor [20:00] <chocolate89> thats a bit ironic... [20:00] <SevenofNine> laugh [20:00] <nympheart> no! It's my high school mascot! [20:00] * Expelliarmas fears she and Seven are in the same Leaky boat, but it does get better [20:00] *** NYBookworm has joined #lounge [20:00] *** EruditeWitch has joined #lounge [20:00] <ProngsPatronus> I think beaters also represent pulverising--as one would do to elements to prepare them for the process [20:00] <NikkiBell> could that foreshadow the two sides merging for a common goal? [20:00] <fawkes28> hey EruditeWitch [20:00] <ProngsPatronus> hey, EW! [20:00] <EruditeWitch> Hey there! [20:00] <chocolate89> hello erudite [20:00] <EruditeWitch> I just got home! [20:00] <SevenofNine> Is Alchemy a way for forecast the future? [20:00] <NikkiBell> hi ny and ew [20:00] <SevenofNine> *TO [20:00] <bubblehead> hmmm [20:00] *** janieb has joined #lounge [20:01] <ProngsPatronus> The Mirror of Erised is said to come from Jo’s imagination. What alchemical implications, if any, does this mirror hold? [20:01] <EruditeWitch> I dont' think alchemy can really act as psychic ability [20:01] <NikkiBell> seven it is basically a study of philosophy, etc. in which one is trying to change lead to gold...check out wikipedia [20:01] <Expelliarmas> heya, janieb [20:01] <SevenofNine> I've read a lot of posts inthe Alchemy thread in OB, and a lot of what's being said seems to be forecasting. [20:01] <ProngsPatronus> hey, janieb [20:01] <chocolate89> it shows that one has to have a pure heart [20:01] <chocolate89> to be able to reach their goal in alchemy [20:01] <NikkiBell> Seeing into the past [20:01] <janieb> Hi everyone! [20:01] <nympheart> the mirror lets you see inside yourself [20:01] <SevenofNine> Cool. I like that, Chocolate. [20:01] <EruditeWitch> I think that alchemy can help us interpret the present and how it will affect the future, but not actually see the future [20:01] <Expelliarmas> well, you don't actually see into the past; it shows you what your heart most desires [20:01] *** Punky has joined #lounge [20:02] <fawkes28> I think Jo did an awesome job with the mirror and alchemy because only the pure of heart could retrieve the stone [20:02] <SevenofNine> The mirror can also perhaps show weaknesses? [20:02] <chocolate89> well it depends if your heart wants something from the past, present, or fture [20:02] *** Piewacket has quit [Ping timeout] [20:02] *** Love4Fawkes has joined #lounge [20:02] <chocolate89> of course seven [20:02] <NikkiBell> wow lag [20:02] *** leakylurker has joined #lounge [20:02] <CarpeDiem> The mirror allows you to see all sorts of things. It can be the past, the future, somone, something...yes, whatever your heart deisres. [20:02] <SevenofNine> It could show you that what you obsess over has no true importance [20:02] <fawkes28> it was also a test for Dumbledore to see how pure Harry's heart was - to see if he would be up to the task one day of defeating voldemort [20:02] <ProngsPatronus> I think it means that one has to detach from desire for material things, because the search for gold is as much an inward journey as an outward process [20:02] <chocolate89> Harry adn Voldemort saw sort of the same thing, just had differet intentions [20:02] <Expelliarmas> hello, leakylurker [20:02] <SevenofNine> Well, said, Prongs. [20:02] <leakylurker> Hi! [20:02] <chocolate89> and Voldemorts intentions can be loooked at as a weakness, his fear of death [20:02] <NikkiBell> hi leaky [20:03] *** memyslfnI has joined #lounge [20:03] <SevenofNine> And intention is everything [20:03] <ProngsPatronus> Voldemort says as much [20:03] <ProngsPatronus> "there is only power...and those too weak to seek it" [20:03] <EruditeWitch> so as Harry becomes stronger and becomes gold, the things VM views as weakness turns into the things that will actually help harry overcome [20:03] <ProngsPatronus> hey, M [20:03] <EruditeWitch> Hi M! [20:03] <fawkes28> hey M [20:03] <NikkiBell> heya m [20:03] *** Val_Halla left #lounge [] [20:03] <chocolate89> eexactly erudite [20:03] <SevenofNine> Well said, Erudite [20:03] <memyslfnI> Hey, I made it!!! [20:03] <chocolate89> hello memys [20:03] <fawkes28> yay! [20:04] <SevenofNine> Hi! [20:04] <fawkes28> we are talking about the mirror and its relation to alchem [20:04] <fawkes28> *alchemy [20:04] <EruditeWitch> and I thought I'd be the late one! [20:04] <ProngsPatronus> M, we are talking about the mirror of erise [20:04] <ProngsPatronus> reised [20:04] <chocolate89> hehe [20:04] <ProngsPatronus> lol--erised [20:04] <memyslfnI> The had mirror (like the oe held by Hermione) is an alchemical symbol or venus [20:04] <memyslfnI> for, rather [20:04] <ProngsPatronus> venus, or love [20:04] <memyslfnI> hand mirror [20:04] <SevenofNine> ?? [20:04] <EruditeWitch> but do we really want to call Erised a mirror or a window? [20:05] <SevenofNine> So the mirror represents love? [20:05] <EruditeWitch> I would call it a window [20:05] <memyslfnI> in Cos, hermione holds a hand mirror to see around corners [20:05] <SevenofNine> Can represent? [20:05] *** bubblehead has quit [Ping timeout] [20:05] <CarpeDiem> memy, is it just the hand mirror or mirrors in general that are a symbol? Can this also relate to the Mirror of Erised? [20:05] *** LandonWoodrow has quit [Bye] [20:05] *** GranjoGranger has joined #lounge [20:05] *** mystical56 has joined #lounge [20:06] <fawkes28> that is a good question, carpe [20:06] <ProngsPatronus> hey, granjo [20:06] <GranjoGranger> Hi [20:06] <NikkiBell> hi granjo [20:06] <ProngsPatronus> hey, mystica [20:06] <memyslfnI> also in alchemy, those who were seeking transfermation were true alchemists and those wher were seeking riches were called puffers. (this relates as we see Harry's vision inthe mirror as opposed to Rons) [20:06] <EruditeWitch> Do you know that if Ron has a mirror than all three have one? And one out of three has used it to their advantage [20:06] <SevenofNine> So LV is a puffer? I like that [20:06] <ProngsPatronus> ron has a mirror in his room [20:06] <Love4Fawkes> i like that too seven [20:06] <Nimthiriel> lol nice Seven [20:06] <EruditeWitch> And we know Harry's hand held and now broken mirror is VER Y important [20:07] <ProngsPatronus> it tells harry to smarten up when he stays with them [20:07] <nympheart> Sirius's mirrors [20:07] <fawkes28> the mirror also tells us a lot about harry and voldemort's choices and how one is pure of heart and the other is very impure [20:07] <memyslfnI> the "hand mirror" is the symbol for venus, think of the symbol for femaale" [20:07] <EruditeWitch> So Harry's mirror comes out of love, Hermione's out of cleverness [20:07] <SevenofNine> Very indeed, Fawkes [20:07] <EruditeWitch> Hermione is ruled by Venus by the way [20:07] <SevenofNine> So what does it say about Ron? [20:07] <SevenofNine> Is he in danger? [20:07] <SevenofNine> Because of what he saw? [20:07] <ProngsPatronus> the Stone must come from both amle and female--be "born" into existance [20:08] <memyslfnI> the red king and the white queen [20:08] <nympheart> is the female Hermione or Ginny? [20:08] <EruditeWitch> Don't get me started on the chemcial wedding [20:08] <EruditeWitch> don't even get me started [20:08] <memyslfnI> (Harry = stone) Lily was the white queen james was the red king [20:08] <ProngsPatronus> The second stage is called Dissolution, which breaks down the first stage even further. [20:08] <SevenofNine> laugh [20:08] <janieb> lol [20:08] <ProngsPatronus> The second stage is called Dissolution, which breaks down the first stage even further. [20:09] <ProngsPatronus> Young Tom Riddle was a smart man who had the opportunity to choose the path of enlightenment and possibly create the Philosopher’s Stone. However, he chose a darker path to immortality, creating Horcruxes, as we first see with his diary. Why didn’t he choose the path of enlightenment? [20:09] <NikkiBell> When Harry learned of Sirius that could be see as dissolution because he was confused and misleaded about information relating to his parents' death. He thought one thing and the other happened. [20:09] <EruditeWitch> Ron is likened to James in OotP and Hermione is likened to Lily in actions [20:09] <memyslfnI> I diagree with that, he was never worthy of the journey. [20:09] <EruditeWitch> I agree, M [20:09] *** mystical56 has quit [Bye] [20:09] <memyslfnI> very few can take that path [20:10] <nympheart> I think genetics played a role [20:10] <NikkiBell> Riddle sought more because he was greedy. [20:10] <EruditeWitch> but I would add that he doesn't see the Journey as worthy [20:10] <fawkes28> why M? [20:10] <ProngsPatronus> I think the two are mutually exclusive [20:10] <SevenofNine> But greed is a choice. [20:10] <SevenofNine> Where do genetics come in? [20:10] <NikkiBell> true [20:10] <CarpeDiem> LV would have been tied directly to the stone...one stone. In the case of the horcrux he can create and hide manyy, making death nearly impossible. [20:10] <chocolate89> agreed carpe [20:10] <SevenofNine> Are some people more prone to problems with greed? [20:10] <leakylurker> I don't think the stone was good enough [20:10] <fawkes28> Dumbledore said that he could have put the past behind him when he started Hogwarts and he could have made the choice to start over [20:10] <Love4Fawkes> lol, not another LV and genetics discussion! [20:10] <nympheart> Tom was never normal in the first place [20:10] <leakylurker> He thought he could do better [20:10] *** squalloogal has joined #lounge [20:10] <NikkiBell> hiya squall [20:11] <squalloogal> hi [20:11] <ProngsPatronus> hey, squall [20:11] <squalloogal> hi guys [20:11] <SevenofNine> But could he have been different if he'd been raised in a loving home? [20:11] <EruditeWitch> Can Harry put his past behind hime? [20:11] <SevenofNine> Hi squall? [20:11] <squalloogal> hi guys [20:11] <memyslfnI> the idea is that the stone has only been produced by very few, flamel is the only known maker with his partner Albus DD. If anyone with the smarts could do it, we would have more of them..Only the ones worthy of enlightment can create the stone [20:11] <EruditeWitch> him* [20:11] <Expelliarmas> the stone would have required LV to depend upon it for immortality--LV relies on nothing and no one [20:11] <EruditeWitch> Do you guys think Harry needs to make a metephorical or literal stone? [20:11] <Love4Fawkes> LV doesn't just want to beat death, he wants ultimate power. according to what I understand, his soul is not pure so he would not be able to create the philosophers stone. [20:11] <ProngsPatronus> the point is that LV chose the physical immortality over the spiritual one--thus making him the false alchemist [20:11] <NikkiBell> I disagree. If Quirrell didn't help LV he wouldn't have been able to come back [20:11] <NikkiBell> same with Wormtail, etc [20:11] <fawkes28> but tom is extremely bright - not many wizards are as bright as he is [20:12] <CarpeDiem> Exactly Expell! He's far too paranoid for that. [20:12] <SevenofNine> I agree Love. [20:12] <memyslfnI> Tom R tried to become immortal by taking shortcuts, (not worthy) Flamel and DD took the long and ardous journey [20:12] <SevenofNine> I think it's more than immortality, although that is an important part of it.l [20:12] <ProngsPatronus> intellect will not get you the Stone, though [20:12] <GranjoGranger> He relies on the horcruxes to keep him alive. [20:12] <memyslfnI> exactly PP [20:12] <ProngsPatronus> one has to be pure of heart [20:12] <EruditeWitch> So we are saying Volemort is the antithesis [20:12] *** cbm has joined #lounge [20:12] <fawkes28> there arent many people with his intelligence - the only one he fears is now dead - he doesnt have many to rival his intelligence [20:12] <cbm> HI [20:12] <fawkes28> hey cbm smile [20:12] <EruditeWitch> so Harry must become Voldemort's opposite. So that is our gold stage [20:12] <SevenofNine> Hi cbm [20:12] <ProngsPatronus> hey, cbm [20:12] <memyslfnI> and the only one we know if in the story is Harry..(and DD, but he is dead) [20:12] <Expelliarmas> well, LV is a flat crazy, psychopath who would never chose anything with a human connection This post has been edited by fawkes28: Jun 20 2007, 08:45 PM |
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Jun 20 2007, 08:46 PM
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Organizing the Halo Rebellion Posts: 3,301 Joined: 2:09pm April 16, 2006 Location: Being angelic, of course |
[20:13] <squalloogal> Is there really anything left of tom in voldy?
[20:13] <memyslfnI> he ses it as a weakness [20:13] <EruditeWitch> 1/7 [20:13] <SevenofNine> Exp laugh [20:13] <EruditeWitch> that's Tom [20:13] <NikkiBell> LV and HP as being polar opposites is clear...good vs. evil...the traditional fairy tale [20:13] <squalloogal> voldy is so corrupted that he may have lost some of toms skills [20:13] <Expelliarmas> there's an itty bitty piece of Riddle soul in Voldemort [20:13] <cbm> 1/7th and I bet he tries to supress that [20:13] <EruditeWitch> That's the piece Harry has to bring out [20:13] <EruditeWitch> and once that piece is exposed, it can be destroyed [20:13] <memyslfnI> we have discussed LV's perverted journey of transformation as opposed to Harry's true one. think of the cauldron in the graveyard [20:14] <squalloogal> hooray desroyed [20:14] <SevenofNine> So if all the horcruxes are destroyed does that mean LV becomes TR again? [20:14] <EruditeWitch> but would Harry want to destroy the shred of humanity in that dark figure? Or are we lookin at the ultimate act of mercy here? [20:14] <Love4Fawkes> that's a good point squalloogal. There isn't much left of Tom only LV, but is LV as bright as tom or has he lost some of that too? [20:14] <memyslfnI> it means he is vournerable, he can be killed [20:14] <Nimthiriel> hmm thats a good question [20:14] <nympheart> I don't think so seven, their destruction doesn't make LV whole [20:14] <Expelliarmas> I doubt it, 7, he opted for the physical transformation. [20:14] <SevenofNine> True. [20:14] <GranjoGranger> It is that piece of Riddle which is so rattled when DD would call him Tom. [20:14] <squalloogal> thanks [20:15] <Love4Fawkes> I don't htink so Seven, so much more than Horcruxes made LV who he is. [20:15] <squalloogal> he has lost his looks perhaps he has lost his skills and passions a bit aswell [20:15] <ProngsPatronus> In Alchemy, spiders symbolize fate and fortune. We are introduced to these creatures in Chamber of Secrets with Aragog, who also resurfaces in Half-Blood Prince, where he dies. Do spiders represent fate and fortune for you in the series or do they symbolize something else? [20:15] <SevenofNine> Yes, Love. [20:15] <janieb> It was Tom's soul that has been torn 6 times [20:15] <GranjoGranger> Harry should just call him Tom and he will melt or something once he destroys all the horcruxes. [20:15] <Expelliarmas> Well, in HBP we also have Snape hanging out at his pad--Spinner's End [20:15] <chocolate89> served as one mans forturne, and another ones fate [20:15] <SevenofNine> Gotta run. Bye everyone [20:15] *** SevenofNine has quit [Bye] [20:16] <cbm> We also saw spiders in book 1 where Harry moves them out of the way [20:16] <squalloogal> mm perhaps fear of the coming paths [20:16] <EruditeWitch> So does Aragog dying mean fate? He means fortune in the use of his venom. And Harry gained fortune by giving the venom to slughorn [20:16] <ProngsPatronus> thanks for coming, seven [20:16] <NikkiBell> I think they do represent fate and fortune. Aragog could have killed Harry (i.e. fate) but he led to Harry's success (i.e. fortune) [20:16] <memyslfnI> Harry is not afraid of them, i think its fate. [20:16] <EruditeWitch> Excellent NIkki~! [20:16] <memyslfnI> they also represent balance, I bet Snape' [20:16] <chocolate89> The Spider determined Hagrids Fate [20:16] <fawkes28> i think of the three fates here [20:16] *** RedEft has quit [Bye] [20:16] <Love4Fawkes> I always thought that spiders seemed to symbolize evil or fear [20:16] <chocolate89> and SlugHorns forturne [20:16] <EruditeWitch> The Spider gave Harry fortune [20:16] <memyslfnI> snapes patronus is a spider [20:16] <fawkes28> and them cutting the thread [20:16] <ProngsPatronus> harry has been involved with spiders all his life [20:16] <NikkiBell> thanks lol [20:16] <ProngsPatronus> so, he has been a child of fate all his life [20:16] <EruditeWitch> As the resident shipper, I would argue that spiders gave Ron fate. [20:16] <DorisTLC> Hagrid tells the boys to follow the spiders [20:16] *** MsCrookshanks2006 has joined #lounge [20:16] <leakylurker> do we know Snapes patronus [20:17] <leakylurker> ? [20:17] <squalloogal> me 2 love 4 fawkes [20:17] <CarpeDiem> Hiya MsC [20:17] *** fawkes28 has joined #lounge [20:17] <chocolate89> hello ms c! [20:17] <MsCrookshanks2006> hiya Carpe [20:17] <leakylurker> oh thanks! [20:17] <MsCrookshanks2006> Hi Choco [20:17] <Love4Fawkes> hi msC [20:17] <EruditeWitch> I'm sorry to beat the dead horse...but why did RON follow the spiders? [20:17] <MsCrookshanks2006> Hi everyone sorry I'm late [20:17] <ProngsPatronus> hi, Mscrookshanks [20:17] <Expelliarmas> no, leaky, Jo wouldn't say what ol' greaseball's patronus was [20:17] <EruditeWitch> What was his reasoning in CoS? [20:18] <Love4Fawkes> Ron is loyal to Harry and that is where Harry was going. [20:18] <NikkiBell> when did Ron follow them Er? [20:18] <chocolate89> agreed [20:18] <squalloogal> hi crookshanks [20:18] <memyslfnI> EW, I think it was because Harry did, [20:18] <nympheart> Ron followed them because Harry was going to and it was the only way to help Hagrid [20:18] <ProngsPatronus> into the forest [20:18] <CarpeDiem> If spiders represent fear perhaps meeting Aragog was facing your fear and the death in HBP is the realization that fear is only temporary? [20:18] <leakylurker> He overcame his fear for his friends [20:18] <NikkiBell> ahh [20:18] <EruditeWitch> I would argue that when Harry passed Ron the note in CoS and Ron looked at Hermione's empty seat before steeling his resolve [20:18] <chocolate89> agreed carpe [20:18] <MsCrookshanks2006> I bet Snapes patronus is a snake [20:18] <EruditeWitch> it shows that he went in there for Hermione [20:18] <EruditeWitch> I would argue, towards his fate [20:18] <Punky> So if they do represent fate is there a reason for Snape being connected to a spider so often? [20:18] <Love4Fawkes> that is what the spiders represent to me Carpe [20:18] *** ProngsPatronus has quit [Bye] [20:18] *** ProngsPatronus has joined #lounge [20:18] <memyslfnI> good point EW [20:19] <chocolate89> yes Punky [20:19] <squalloogal> oh I like that carpe [20:19] <MsCrookshanks2006> good Carpe [20:19] <MsCrookshanks2006> i liek that [20:19] <chocolate89> because snape determined dumbledores fate [20:19] <chocolate89> and many others fate as well [20:19] <chocolate89> depends on how you look at it [20:19] <EruditeWitch> Snape determined the Potter's fate [20:19] *** RedEft has joined #lounge [20:19] <memyslfnI> yes he did [20:19] <EruditeWitch> and he will probably determine Draco's [20:19] <EruditeWitch> and in some ways did with the Vow [20:19] <memyslfnI> and possible has had a hand in Harry's, even more than the fate of his parents [20:19] *** beccabear747 has quit [Bye] [20:20] <CarpeDiem> Agreed chocolate. Snape himself, as a spider perhaps, is the one actually weaving the web of fate for the others? So much of the story is crutial on his actions. [20:20] <cbm> I think he is still bound to protect draco by the second vow [20:20] <fawkes28> because he was the messager to voldemort, EW? [20:20] <EruditeWitch> if he was there that night.. [20:20] <ProngsPatronus> The basilisk is an important creature in alchemy, and we know it was placed in the chamber by Slytherin. Was Slytherin an alchemist? [20:20] <squalloogal> yes I think thats right carpe [20:20] <EruditeWitch> Yes Fawkes. if we are talking about The Potters [20:20] <ProngsPatronus> I think this is a fascinating question [20:20] <nympheart> he may have tried to be [20:20] <NikkiBell> how was it an important creature in alchemy? [20:20] <Love4Fawkes> i agree prongs [20:20] <cbm> great question, I would not be surprised if he was [20:20] <As_Weasley_as_I_wannabe> I am VERY interesed in Draco's symbolism in alchemy. We know he's good at potions. [20:20] <leakylurker> I don't think so, it doesn't seem like he would be interested in spiritual enlightment [20:20] <janieb> Perhpas both he and Gryffindor were [20:20] <fawkes28> I think he may have been one; however, he was not able to achieve enlightenment and thus failed [20:21] <chocolate89> well Nikki [20:21] <EruditeWitch> YES Janie!!!! [20:21] <ProngsPatronus> the basilisk is also called "regulus", king of serpents [20:21] <chocolate89> that doesnt make him not an alchemist [20:21] <Love4Fawkes> since i knew nothing of alchemy until tonight i never gave this much thought, but it seems he might have been. [20:21] <chocolate89> iit makes him one unable to reach the goal [20:21] <fawkes28> i was thinking that too, janie - partners like flamel and dumbledore [20:21] <nympheart> ooh, that's cool prongs [20:21] <EruditeWitch> Paracelcus was very involved in the value of snakes in alchemy [20:21] <memyslfnI> no, the basilisk is a symbol of conjuction [20:21] <CarpeDiem> Yes, I think he was certainly attempting to change and "purify" the wizarding race. Only allowing those with pure blood to learn and practice magic cetainly would have created a veryvaluable element. [20:21] <squalloogal> oh the blacks [20:21] <memyslfnI> the meeting of the higher and lower powers [20:21] <EruditeWitch> Is WeaselDiva here? [20:21] <NikkiBell> carpe excellent point [20:21] <squalloogal> regulas black [20:22] <squalloogal> king of the snakes [20:22] <fawkes28> no, EW [20:22] <chocolate89> dun dun dun [20:22] <squalloogal> oh that is good [20:22] <EruditeWitch> She has a lot to say on Basilisks [20:22] <EruditeWitch> and Weasleys [20:22] <memyslfnI> I brought my notes< Psychologically, the Basilisk represents the melding of our higher and lower natures in Conjunction, a process that must be continued in the next three operations of alchemy for this "Child of the Philosophers" to become the Living Stone of the fully integrated [20:22] <janieb> Interesting Carpe, the lesser stone and the greater stone [20:22] <squalloogal> and blacks by the look of things [20:22] <EruditeWitch> So do you think Regulus is Black Vitriol and Harry must align his white-ness or albedo stage with Regulus' work? [20:23] <squalloogal> huh? [20:23] <squalloogal> I must be dimm [20:23] <EruditeWitch> or could this tie regulus with more evil than good? [20:23] <Expelliarmas> ditto, squall! [20:23] <squalloogal> I don't understand that question [20:23] <Love4Fawkes> i've just read that three times M and I'm still confused [20:23] <EruditeWitch> Sorry [20:23] <GranjoGranger> Confused too. [20:23] <ProngsPatronus> the basilisk is formed by a toad hatching the egg of a ---- [20:23] <NikkiBell> woah i just looked up basilisk in wikipedia and it had a connection to "Sirius" a star in the sky [20:24] <EruditeWitch> Dogstar [20:24] <squalloogal> that I know [20:24] <DorisTLC> hey guys - i have to get johnny from basketball - i'll try to get back before y'all are done! [20:24] <ProngsPatronus> so, you have the conjuction of two different forces to create the magic of the basilisk [20:24] *** DorisTLC has quit [Bye] [20:24] *** terivic has joined #lounge [20:24] <fawkes28> bye doris [20:24] <Expelliarmas> "hatching the egg of a ----" seems darned near impossible [20:24] <squalloogal> egg hatched out comes a basilisk [20:24] *** leakylurker has quit [Bye] [20:24] <janieb> Whoa, I forgot about "the toad" [20:24] <memyslfnI> In the books, my take was that when Harry defeated the Basilisk, it was a symbol for the changing of a process. Harry continued to the next level of his transformation to the living and vreathing stone. [20:24] <ProngsPatronus> hey, terivic [20:24] <EruditeWitch> I agree M [20:25] <ProngsPatronus> lol--yes, it does, expie [20:25] *** terivic has quit [Bye] [20:25] <ProngsPatronus> that is why we are not overrun with the beaties [20:25] <Nimthiriel> Yeah expie [20:25] <EruditeWitch> So did we have two completely different sets of transformations in the series? [20:25] <Love4Fawkes> i see that M, but it seemed to have happened a little early didn't it? [20:25] <fawkes28> well, he learned from that stage and was able to move on but what i find interesting is that he would not have been able to move on if it wasn't for Fawkes [20:25] <janieb> Which vame first. the rooster or the egg? [20:25] <squalloogal> thank goodness prongs [20:25] <ProngsPatronus> *beasties [20:25] <memyslfnI> there are still many more levels to go [20:25] <squalloogal> can't be many about [20:25] <squalloogal> even though they live for ages [20:25] <EruditeWitch> I always looked at it as three levels. But they didn't really start until OotP [20:25] <ProngsPatronus> The third stage of transformation is known as separation and coincides with Prisoner of Azkaban. It is at this stage where one decides what to keep and what to throw away. How is the stage of separation represented for Harry in his third year? [20:26] <squalloogal> the toad of course [20:26] <EruditeWitch> Back up here....if the third stage happens in PoA...does it start again in OotP? [20:26] <ProngsPatronus> there is a lot of separation symbols in PoA [20:26] <Expelliarmas> here, i don't see the separation but rather a joining where Harry finds Sirius as his godfather [20:26] <fawkes28> he has to separate himself from wanting to hear his mom when the dementors come around in order to move forward with his life [20:26] <Love4Fawkes> keep sirius, throw away wormtail? [20:26] <EruditeWitch> Excellent Fawkes [20:27] <nympheart> the intended separation of Buckbeak's head from the rest of his body [20:27] <Expelliarmas> but i guess he does lose sirius in the end [20:27] <squalloogal> oh yes expell [20:27] <ProngsPatronus> well, they wanted to separate bioth Sirius and Buckbeak from their heads [20:27] <EruditeWitch> he has to keep his friends close....we see this in Ron's semi sacrificial act and Hermione's time turner [20:27] <Love4Fawkes> just kidding, sorry, seriously, Harry has to seperate from Sirius who he had just bonded with. [20:27] <NikkiBell> he has to separate himself from the idea of living back in the past i.e. with sirius, a family member figure, and he has to throw this idea away because of sirius at risk [20:27] <fawkes28> but even Sirius helps him move forward - rather than backwards in the past [20:27] <EruditeWitch> There's no adult to save him in this one [20:27] <Expelliarmas> and the poor ol' greaseball loses his Order of Merlin, so there is separation and loss all around [20:27] <memyslfnI> Symbols of Separation include swords, scythes, arrows, knives, and hatchets, we see the ax and the beheadding in PaO [20:27] <NikkiBell> he keeps the concept of contact and a relationship with sirius, but it is not a strong one as he originally wanted [20:27] <Love4Fawkes> lol expie [20:27] <memyslfnI> of buckbeak [20:28] <Love4Fawkes> and we see the sword again i think when Harry is waiting for DD in the office [20:28] <ProngsPatronus> to go to hogsmeade, Harry had to make himself invisible, [20:28] <Love4Fawkes> or no, sorry, that was not PoA [20:28] <squalloogal> so in other words he needs to keep growing up and not being stagnant? [20:28] <ProngsPatronus> thus separating himself from his classmates [20:28] <EruditeWitch> Harry Ron and Hermione all fight in PoA [20:28] <ProngsPatronus> yes, squall [20:28] <fawkes28> it is interesting that Harry physically attacks Snape - he learns that on his quest he will have to do what it takes to seek the truth even if it means breaking traditional rules [20:28] <ProngsPatronus> to achieve the stone, one must keep growing and refining oneself [20:29] <nympheart> He was separated from them with the dementors, too [20:29] <CarpeDiem> Keeping and throwing away...sounds like Harry trying to figure out more about his past from his father's friends. He is also piecing together the real story behind Sirius Black. [20:29] <EruditeWitch> Harry seperates from preconcieved notions of who to trust [20:29] <Love4Fawkes> But shouldn't all this seperating be what Harry choices to leave behind and what he choices to carry with him on his journey? [20:29] <GranjoGranger> Separating his growing up self from his younger delf, ongoing process. [20:29] <fawkes28> i think so, Love [20:29] <ProngsPatronus> yes, love [20:30] <ProngsPatronus> but it isn't always physical things that get separated [20:30] <Love4Fawkes> In PoA Harry seemed to stop wishing his parent's alive and seemed to start accepting the people he had in his life as his family. [20:30] <fawkes28> he has to bring with him what is most important rather than what is tying him down and holding him back [20:30] <janieb> After blowing up Aunt Marge, he was willing to separate himself from everything (or thought he already had by practicing underage magic) [20:30] <memyslfnI> also there is seperation between the different stages of alchemy. When DD dies in HBP, there are arrows flying over his coffin, he has seperated himself from the journey and has finished the great work (Symbolized by the phoenix flames) [20:30] <squalloogal> love fawkes do you mean like carrying his friends along with him? [20:30] <NikkiBell> okay all this is has great, but i am going to go [20:30] <ProngsPatronus> thanks for coming, nikki [20:30] <NikkiBell> have fun! keep up the good work prongs and the others smile [20:30] <nympheart> bye Nikki [20:30] <EruditeWitch> bye! [20:30] *** NYBookworm has quit [Bye] [20:30] <fawkes28> yes, janie - he doesnt care what happens to him at that point [20:30] <CarpeDiem> Oh...very good poing Love. In the end he has to come to the realization that he saved himself using the patronus, not his father. [20:30] <ProngsPatronus> bye, NYB [20:30] *** NikkiBell has quit [Bye] [20:31] *** terivic has joined #lounge [20:31] <fawkes28> well, yes - keeping his friends is important [20:31] <Love4Fawkes> thanks, CarpeDiem, I was wondering if I was being clear enough [20:31] <ProngsPatronus> Sirius Black is a new character introduced in Prisoner of Azkaban who represents salt, one of the three most important elements in alchemy. Salt represents the beginning and the end. How does Sirius represent the beginning for Harry in Prisoner of Azkaban? [20:31] <EruditeWitch> This is the first time Harry feels connected to a family of sorts [20:31] <squalloogal> so does that mean book 7 sees that seperation? [20:31] <fawkes28> i think Sirius gives Harry the hope for the family he never had [20:32] <janieb> His connection to Sirius is a kind of rebirth [20:32] <fawkes28> it is the beginning of a new journey [20:32] <Love4Fawkes> I agree fawkes and EW [20:32] <EruditeWitch> Harry becomes Harry and not the young boy of leaden steps [20:32] <MsCrookshanks2006> and seperation from the dursleys [20:32] <GranjoGranger> Truth about parents, real family in Sirius [20:32] <EruditeWitch> he realized what there is to fight for [20:32] <memyslfnI> oooh, in all the things I have read, I have interpreted Harry as salt...The stone begins and ends with salt. [20:32] <EruditeWitch> EXACTLY! [20:32] <squalloogal> seperation from ginnie [20:32] <EruditeWitch> That's what I scream from the top of my lungs to the misguided ones, M [20:32] <ProngsPatronus> M, is it possible that there are different cycles between the generations? [20:33] <EruditeWitch> More than possible, Prongs. James-Sulphur, Sirius Salt, Lupin Mercury [20:33] <memyslfnI> it could be, but then sirius would be the stone of his generation, and I would have placed DD in that role [20:33] <EruditeWitch> Ron- Sulphur. Harry Salt, Hermione Mercury [20:33] <Expelliarmas> But it is in PoA that Harry finally gets a connection to James and Lily. And Sirius and Lupin give him more of a connection to James. [20:33] <Love4Fawkes> DD and sirius are different generations [20:33] <ProngsPatronus> he gave his life for Harry in OotP [20:33] <ProngsPatronus> did he not reach gold then? [20:34] <squalloogal> so whats ginnie? [20:34] <ProngsPatronus> good point, love [20:34] <memyslfnI> yes, the salt would have to go with the mercury of Lily and the sulfur od james [20:34] <EruditeWitch> Well JKR said that Sirius was coming to play again [20:34] <fawkes28> is the salt representative of the alpha and omega? [20:34] <EruditeWitch> I think Sirius is going to reach gold through the mirror [20:34] <Nimthiriel> *is so very confused* [20:34] <ProngsPatronus> lol- [20:34] * fawkes28 hugs nim [20:34] <nympheart> me too Nimthiriel [20:34] <memyslfnI> but was he worthy of the journey ew? lIKE hARRY/ [20:34] <Love4Fawkes> me too nim! just when i thought I was understanding! [20:34] <Nimthiriel> hahahah thanks [20:34] <Nimthiriel> yeah [20:34] <Nimthiriel> lol [20:34] <ProngsPatronus> perhaps we need to clarify what salt, suphur, and mercury are in alchemy [20:34] <EruditeWitch> Was Sirius worthy? [20:35] <EruditeWitch> not when he died. [20:35] <nympheart> yes please, prongs [20:35] <EruditeWitch> But in death, he may get there [20:35] <squalloogal> thanks prongs that would be nice [20:35] <janieb> yes please prongs [20:35] <EruditeWitch> I think he died in the white stage, [20:35] <Love4Fawkes> that would be great prongs! [20:35] <memyslfnI> Salt sulfur and Mercury anfe the three heavenly bodoes that make up the stone [20:35] *** DeadlyChill has joined #lounge [20:35] <memyslfnI> my tyoping stinks! [20:35] <EruditeWitch> I see that! [20:35] <fawkes28> you are good, keep going! [20:35] <ProngsPatronus> they are the three elements of the stone [20:35] <janieb> lol! [20:35] <squalloogal> hi deadlychill [20:35] <ProngsPatronus> and all need to be present for the stone to occur [20:35] <DeadlyChill> Hi [20:36] <Love4Fawkes> oh, its becoming clearer! [20:36] <nympheart> and apparently each of them have a different purpose [20:36] <ProngsPatronus> so, we have the Trio [20:36] <Love4Fawkes> its as clear as mud as we are fond of saying at work. [20:36] <memyslfnI> you need the three bodies, as PP has stated and the four elements to balance to create the stone [20:36] <memyslfnI> 7! [20:36] <ProngsPatronus> Ron, as sulphur, hermione as mercury, and harry as salt [20:36] <fawkes28> ah!!! [20:36] <EruditeWitch> Unless you ship H/Hr you guys! [20:36] <ProngsPatronus> Harry--the beginning and end of the work [20:36] <Nimthiriel> wow... [20:36] <memyslfnI> yes, PP [20:36] <janieb> how do they interact with one aonther? [20:36] <squalloogal> ok [20:36] <MsCrookshanks2006> now I am understanding [20:36] <memyslfnI> just like DD before him [20:36] <fawkes28> excellent, prongs [20:37] <EruditeWitch> Do you guys have a quote with that beginning and end of work thing? [20:37] <CarpeDiem> this is the stone as in the phillosopher's stone, correct? Representing the series as a whole? [20:37] *** RedEft has quit [Bye] [20:37] <ProngsPatronus> yes, carpe [20:37] <fawkes28> they all need to work in harmony in order to achieve the end result [20:37] <squalloogal> so how come dd is a stone and harry isn't? [20:37] <memyslfnI> janieb, mercury and sulfur must "resolve" [20:37] <Love4Fawkes> lol, ron and hermione = harmony? [20:37] <EruditeWitch> Ron and Hermione must come together [20:37] <ProngsPatronus> dd was farther along in his great work [20:37] <memyslfnI> they have been called the "quarrelling couple" [20:37] <EruditeWitch> Unless of course you ship H/Hr...then you mark Harry has sulphur [20:38] <EruditeWitch> which makes no sense [20:38] <ProngsPatronus> lol [20:38] <ProngsPatronus> EW [20:38] <MsCrookshanks2006> yes but they come together at the funeral [20:38] <janieb> thanks Memys and fawkes--does vitriol act only on salt? [20:38] <nympheart> what are mercury and sulphur? [20:38] <Love4Fawkes> huh, interesting [20:38] <squalloogal> its NOOOOT harry [20:38] <memyslfnI> yes!! janie [20:38] <squalloogal> Its ron [20:38] <squalloogal> harry and ginnie [20:38] <ProngsPatronus> Mercury is intellect [20:38] <fawkes28> that is an intriguing question, janie [20:38] <squalloogal> its always been ginnie [20:38] <EruditeWitch> Salt is Earth [20:38] <ProngsPatronus> which is hermione [20:38] <EruditeWitch> ? [20:38] <ProngsPatronus> ron is the body--sulphur [20:38] <MsCrookshanks2006> Mercury would be Hermione [20:38] <EruditeWitch> I thought Salt was the body [20:39] <ProngsPatronus> Harry is salt--the spirit [20:39] <fawkes28> but earth is also represented by hufflepuff [20:39] <memyslfnI> vitriol is an acid that dissoles all substances, except gold!! [20:39] <Love4Fawkes> Harry surely is the spirit of the trio [20:39] <EruditeWitch> I've made the argument before that Ron is. But I won't go into it now [20:39] *** RedEft has joined #lounge [20:39] <fawkes28> which would make that Harry then - right M? [20:39] <ProngsPatronus> yes [20:39] <ProngsPatronus> interpretations vary [20:39] <ProngsPatronus> which is one of the wonderful things about alchemy! [20:39] <squalloogal> cool [20:40] <MsCrookshanks2006> Harry presnce links the trio so i would agree that he is salt [20:40] <Love4Fawkes> i agree MsC [20:40] <EruditeWitch> I think once our three chemicals combine, and our four elements...then Harry becomes gold and is inpenetrable [20:40] <Nimthiriel> as much as i understand of this, i agree also MsC [20:40] <ProngsPatronus> exactly, EW [20:40] <squalloogal> oh I do like that [20:40] <Love4Fawkes> lol nim [20:40] <EruditeWitch> So how do we get slytherin in the fold? [20:40] <squalloogal> harry is gold [20:40] <EruditeWitch> Draco? [20:40] <fawkes28> the 5th element is Harry [20:40] <chocolate89> igoes back to how harry is almost nothing without ron and hermione [20:40] <squalloogal> can't be defeated [20:40] <EruditeWitch> He would make it seven [20:40] <squalloogal> nice [20:40] <EruditeWitch> Harry is Quintessence. Almost. [20:41] <memyslfnI> Salt is the third heavenly substance in alchemy and represents the final manifestation of the perfected Stone. The Emerald Tablet calls it "the Glory of the Whole Universe." For Paracelsus, Salt was like a balsam the body produced to shield itself from decay. It has also been associated with the Ouroboros, the Stone, and the Astral Body. In general, Salt represents the action of thought on matter, be it the One Mind acting on the One [20:41] <fawkes28> soon [20:41] <nympheart> So the trio together make the stone, not just Harry? [20:41] <memyslfnI> from my crib notes [20:41] <ProngsPatronus> there are the four elements--water=slytherin, earth=hufflepuff, air=ravenclaw, and fire=gryffindor [20:41] <EruditeWitch> Harry is the beginning and end of the stone [20:41] <ProngsPatronus> thanks, M! [20:41] <CarpeDiem> You have NOTES, memyslfnI? smile [20:41] <EruditeWitch> But Sulphur and Mercury must combine with salt [20:41] <fawkes28> Harry wouldnt be able to have gotten as far as he did without the other "elements" [20:41] <Love4Fawkes> so we need the houses to unite and the trio to come together in harmony? [20:42] <squalloogal> ouroboros the unbreaking snake? [20:42] <memyslfnI> who happens to have out of body (ASTRAL) experiences [20:42] <ProngsPatronus> yes, that's it, exactly, fawkes [20:42] <squalloogal> the eternity symbol? [20:42] <ProngsPatronus> yes, squall [20:42] <fawkes28> i think they are already in harmony - the trio [20:42] <Love4Fawkes> that is true, they are [20:42] <fawkes28> it is the houses that need to get in order [20:42] <memyslfnI> yes Fawkes, DD says that he needs his friends, Tow Riddle was a loner [20:42] <EruditeWitch> we need the houses in Harmony [20:42] <cbm> would harry and the snake qualify as out of body? [20:42] <ProngsPatronus> ok--is everybody up to speed? [20:42] <janieb> Once Ron and Hermione snog-they will be [20:42] <EruditeWitch> DRACO DRACO DRACO [20:42] <Love4Fawkes> i think so [20:42] <MsCrookshanks2006> lol [20:42] <squalloogal> oh my goodness [20:42] <memyslfnI> lol [20:42] <nympheart> I think so, Prongs [20:42] <ProngsPatronus> The trio has to descend to the Shrieking Shack, which is representative of the Below, in order to gain knowledge. When Harry eventually ascends to the above, out of the Shrieking Shack, he has the knowledge that Sirius did not betray Harry’s parents. Why must one descend into the below before rising to the above? [20:43] <GranjoGranger> for ballance [20:43] <EruditeWitch> You need to go through all stages. What goes up, must come down [20:43] <memyslfnI> yes GG! [20:43] <squalloogal> so you could say harry may create himself..... as it were [20:43] <chocolate89> there are certain things one must over come before reaching the top [20:43] <EruditeWitch> And in that shack, all three chemicals unite to come to a means [20:44] <fawkes28> see when i think of the below and above, i always think of physical places - but it really is about states of mentality, i think [20:44] <CarpeDiem> Some answers are very well hidden...and in the oddest places. It shows what lengths Harry is willing to go through to find the truth. [20:44] <squalloogal> voldy marking him started the selection and his choices continued the link apon itself coming back to the prophesy? [20:44] <memyslfnI> he is "broken down" and recombined in a sense in order to be transformed, you cannot transcend to enlightment unless you look inside yourself [20:44] <nympheart> that makes a lot of sense, fawkes [20:44] <EruditeWitch> ooooh and the people in the shack could be representative of what is inside of Harry! [20:44] <ProngsPatronus> yes [20:45] <janieb> nicely said, fawles [20:45] <Love4Fawkes> i was just wrestling with that thought myself fawkes. the shack isn't literally below. its kind of on a hill, but I guess symoblically it was below [20:45] <MsCrookshanks2006> I agree Carpe.. it shows Harrys resolve to seek out the truth or justice [20:45] <ProngsPatronus> it is "inside", and one has to go in a tunnel to get there [20:45] <Love4Fawkes> well said Me [20:45] <memyslfnI> he travels below in each book...the trap door, the chamber, the shack, the lake and the maze, the DoM and the cave in HBP [20:45] <GranjoGranger> Below also means deep indide self [20:46] <CarpeDiem> I like the states of mentality and enlightenment. Harry was chasing Sirius to get answers and eventually had to question himself to fin the truth. It made him a stronger person. [20:46] <memyslfnI> yesGG [20:46] <EruditeWitch> Wow M [20:46] <EruditeWitch> I never realized that [20:46] <squalloogal> that is soooooo cool [20:46] <EruditeWitch> I think Harry will go into the underworld with the help of Sirius as a guide. That will be his last below [20:46] <CarpeDiem> Yes, very cool. Wow [20:46] <MsCrookshanks2006> wouldn't it also be full circle..the other elements met there.. [20:46] <squalloogal> how does JK put all this in a book [20:46] <memyslfnI> I agree EW [20:46] <EruditeWitch> or Gringotts.... as per the cover [20:46] <memyslfnI> she is a genius squaloogal [20:46] <chocolate89> genuis erudite [20:46] <Love4Fawkes> oh yes Gringotts is certainly below [20:46] <chocolate89> gringotss... [20:46] <chocolate89> amazing [20:46] <squalloogal> you can say that again [20:47] <squalloogal> gringottes is below [20:47] <janieb> ditto for me [20:47] <nympheart> I think more along the lines of Egyptian pyramid [20:47] <squalloogal> way below [20:47] <EruditeWitch> do you thinkt he Veil could have been moved? [20:47] <MsCrookshanks2006> James Sirus and Lupin all met there for lupin sake and a gain we find Ron Harry and Hermione there [20:47] *** AlchemistApprentice has joined #lounge [20:47] <squalloogal> below the understanding of muggles [20:47] <chocolate89> quite possible [20:47] <squalloogal> and below the city [20:47] <ProngsPatronus> wb, al [20:47] <memyslfnI> AL!!!!!! [20:47] <EruditeWitch> hey al! [20:47] <squalloogal> into the bowels so to speak [20:47] <AlchemistApprentice> MMMMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmm [20:47] <chocolate89> hello alchemist [20:47] <nympheart> I doubt it, Erudite, the MoM was built around it I think [20:47] <fawkes28> Only 15 minutes left, everyone! This has been a great chat! I want to remind you all that this transcript can be found at the Corner Booth Forum http://www.leakylounge.com/Corner-Booth-f184.html. Don't forget to vote in the latest poll for the next WWW chat here: http://www.leakylounge.com/forums.html#entry1258974 [20:47] <chocolate89> welcome back [20:47] <MsCrookshanks2006> hello alchemist [20:47] <fawkes28> *This chat will continue at the in the Study Hall of the Chamber of Chat http://www.chamberofchat.com/chat/enter.asp* [20:47] <squalloogal> hi [20:47] <AlchemistApprentice> ok catching up continue gang [20:48] <ProngsPatronus> The fourth stage is called conjunction and it unites the masculine and the feminine. This stage also is a marking point in which we see Harry continuing to make decisions to the path of enlightenment. Which decisions have Harry made in Goblet of Fire to continue on his path toward self-actualization? [20:48] <GranjoGranger> The veil devides two realities. It can be anywhere/ [20:48] <Love4Fawkes> you ready to run the chat nim? [20:48] <EruditeWitch> Wow. I can think of so many ways masculine and feminine unite! [20:48] <MsCrookshanks2006> the decision to help Cedric [20:48] <janieb> I think his "saving people thing" is an important choice he made in GoF [20:49] *** Punky has quit [Bye] [20:49] <CarpeDiem> Harry "discovers girls" in GoF smile [20:49] <EruditeWitch> Fleur...meets Bill [20:49] <memyslfnI> he chooses to make the playing field even for cedric, very honorable, and to take the cup together, (poor cedric) [20:49] <chocolate89> hehe [20:49] <ProngsPatronus> in Gof, we see harry fgo for the golden egg [20:49] <GranjoGranger> How many examples would you like? [20:49] *** Punky has joined #lounge [20:49] *** RedEft has quit [Bye] [20:49] <EruditeWitch> Hermione and Ron's Yule Brawl [20:49] <squalloogal> well to go back for cedric in the maze and to give his chance of winning away [20:49] <EruditeWitch> Krum and Hermione [20:49] <AlchemistApprentice> yes Harrys pure heart- sacrifice [20:49] <MsCrookshanks2006> wb Punky [20:49] <fawkes28> yes, i think so two, janieb - it is when you realize that he is a hero [20:49] <ProngsPatronus> go under the water to save his friends, and go into the maze to win [20:49] <nympheart> He chose to go with cedric for the cup and not take it himself [20:49] <squalloogal> hi punky [20:49] <memyslfnI> yes, PP I was jsut typng that [20:49] <ProngsPatronus> great minds... [20:50] <memyslfnI> LOL! [20:50] <nympheart> and he chose to go down fighting LV, not to sit behind a tombstone [20:50] <EruditeWitch> I can't really picture Harry self actualizing in GoF though. I think he is still VERY deluded [20:50] <fawkes28> he is rare in the way that he would rather make sure everyone is ok than win a race [20:50] <janieb> Come to think of it--I can't think of a moment when winning the cup meant anything to him [20:50] <Love4Fawkes> He sees LV come back and even then he must know he was meant to face him [20:50] <AlchemistApprentice> will his willingness to sacrifice himself be what Lv tries to exploit- [20:50] <Expelliarmas> time for me to go home, see y'all later [20:50] <GranjoGranger> He told Cedric bout rhe dragons. [20:50] <fawkes28> but i think it shows he is on the right path, EW [20:50] *** Expelliarmas has quit [Bye] [20:50] <AlchemistApprentice> bye [20:50] <ProngsPatronus> bye, expie [20:50] <janieb> bye, Expie [20:50] <memyslfnI> He stands true and tall to face him [20:50] <EruditeWitch> I guess. He STARTS the path in GoF. And begins the Black stage at the end of that [20:50] <fawkes28> he is still in the Black Stage and has a long process ahead of him [20:50] <Love4Fawkes> Harry is really beginning the process of self actualizing. [20:50] <squalloogal> i can janieb [20:50] *** As_Weasley_as_I_wannabe has quit [Bye] [20:51] <MsCrookshanks2006> i think LV will and has exploited that trait in harry [20:51] <squalloogal> before he was chosen he dreamt about it [20:51] <fawkes28> it is the beginning of the end for him - at least when cedric dies [20:51] <Nimthiriel> bye expie [20:51] <AlchemistApprentice> yes which shows he is no longer a boy but a wizard and man [20:51] <EruditeWitch> But this is when Voldemort becomes real, and Harry's connection to him is exposed [20:51] <janieb> Oh yes, thanks--I had forgotten [20:51] <Love4Fawkes> according to Erik Erikson very few people make it through all the stages to self actualization [20:51] <AlchemistApprentice> real in flesh but soul is dead [20:51] *** Puzzlepiece has joined #lounge [20:51] <fawkes28> yes, voldemort coming into a body is a turning point [20:51] <Love4Fawkes> its intriguing that he had 7 stages too. . . [20:51] <CarpeDiem> Competing in a tournement like that, and as vastly inferirior as he was, Harry eventually realized to trust himself and his instincts. Even though he was helped in some way or another, he was stronger in the end because of it. [20:51] <squalloogal> no prob [20:51] <ProngsPatronus> yes--LV stops being HomunculusMort, and becomes a real and present danger [20:51] <AlchemistApprentice> while Harry chooses life [20:51] <fawkes28> interesting, love [20:52] <nympheart> Love, I've been connecting this to psych the entire chat [20:52] <memyslfnI> this is his own perveted take on alchemy, he steals and doesn't earn [20:52] *** RedEft has joined #lounge [20:52] <Love4Fawkes> i'm just catching on nymph! [20:52] <MsCrookshanks2006> Agree Caerpe [20:52] <janieb> LOL, Prongs! [20:52] <EruditeWitch> And Flamel beleives only the worthy should practice [20:52] <EruditeWitch> did he sign his own death warrant by taking Harry's blood? [20:52] <memyslfnI> as does William Lily [20:52] <AlchemistApprentice> yes erud! [20:52] <GranjoGranger> Everyone should practice. [20:52] <ProngsPatronus> i THINK HE DID, ew [20:52] <MsCrookshanks2006> yes Erud [20:52] <memyslfnI> i think so [20:53] <Puzzlepiece> probably [20:53] <EruditeWitch> Gleam of triumph! [20:53] <janieb> Is the triumph his death? [20:53] <MsCrookshanks2006> Gleam of triumph [20:53] <GranjoGranger> It is all about stages of grrowth. [20:53] <ProngsPatronus> all that gleams is not gold... [20:53] <AlchemistApprentice> gold from whom? [20:53] <squalloogal> well taking harrys blood is just taking something else he prizes but hasn't earned [20:53] <ProngsPatronus> The first task involves capturing a dragon’s eggs. Dragons are mentioned throughout the series and a dragon even graces the presence of the deluxe American edition. From an alchemical standpoint, what role will dragons play in the final book? [20:53] <GranjoGranger> becoimg gold [20:54] <EruditeWitch> Dragons are fire [20:54] <memyslfnI> Dragons equal blackening, [20:54] <janieb> How do we find out the 12 uses dragon's blood? [20:54] <fawkes28> dragon's blood - is going to be important [20:54] <Puzzlepiece> dragon blood, according to the prices, is as good as gold [20:54] <AlchemistApprentice> absolutely- dragon's [20:54] <Nimthiriel> yes i think so [20:54] <EruditeWitch> oooooooh Dragon's blood as a destroyer of a horcrux [20:54] <fawkes28> it was that tony hint from the chocolate frog card in PS [20:54] <AlchemistApprentice> norbert returns [20:54] <squalloogal> won't they be a conecting bridge? [20:54] <Puzzlepiece> norbert wont return. [20:54] <memyslfnI> The dragon in flames is a symbol of fire and Calcination. Several dragons fighting is symbolic of Putrefaction. Dragons with wings represent the volatile principle; dragons without wings represent the fixed principle. A dragons biting its own tale is the Ouroboros and signifies the fundamental unity of all things. [20:54] <memyslfnI> Back to Top [20:54] <memyslfnI> from by crib notes... [20:54] <squalloogal> I don't think it is norbert [20:54] <Love4Fawkes> In HBP Slughorn mentions how expensive Dragon's blood has become. wonder if we will find out why. [20:54] <GranjoGranger> There is still dragon's blood at Grimmauld Pl. [20:55] <squalloogal> I think it is a different bread [20:55] <EruditeWitch> Antipodean Opaleye [20:55] <squalloogal> an Australian dragon [20:55] <ProngsPatronus> lolM [20:55] <EruditeWitch> only friendly dragon [20:55] <fawkes28> is dragon's blood one of the elements in creating the philosopher's stone? [20:55] <Puzzlepiece> dragon blood : Hagrid's face [20:55] <nympheart> the volatile principle and fixed principle are...? [20:55] *** As_Weasley_as_I_wannabe has joined #lounge [20:55] <memyslfnI> dragons blood is a componant of the stone, is it not..with basilik venom and phoenix tears, Harry is well on his way [20:55] <EruditeWitch> Well then Harry only needs Dragon's blood [20:55] <ProngsPatronus> dragon's blood is actually a mineral--cinnabar [20:56] <EruditeWitch> and doesn't the Hermetic character slay the "Dragon of Ignorance"? [20:56] <memyslfnI> yes, it is [20:56] *** As_Weasley_as_I_wannabe left #lounge [] [20:56] <memyslfnI> forgot that PP! [20:56] <AlchemistApprentice> dragon=draco?????????????????/ [20:56] <Puzzlepiece> no. [20:56] <squalloogal> its aussie of course its friendly [20:56] <EruditeWitch> Well Hermione already slayed him, Al [20:56] <Love4Fawkes> lol [20:56] <AlchemistApprentice> right [20:56] <GranjoGranger> What is Draco? [20:56] *** Riddle2 has joined #lounge [20:56] <AlchemistApprentice> draco malfoy [20:56] <ProngsPatronus> The fifth stage of transformation is known as either fermentation or the Black Stage. The first part of this stage involves death while the second part represents new life or resurrection. How do we see this stage represented in Order of the Phoenix? [20:56] <MsCrookshanks2006> hi riddle [20:56] <Riddle2> =) [20:56] *** janieb has quit [Bye] [20:56] *** janieb has joined #lounge [20:57] <memyslfnI> Sirius death [20:57] <Puzzlepiece> Sirius BLACK [20:57] <ProngsPatronus> hey, riddle [20:57] <squalloogal> lol erud [20:57] <nympheart> The House of Black is an obvious one [20:57] <ProngsPatronus> yes, M and puzzle [20:57] <fawkes28> yes, Harry entering the house of a dying person [20:57] <EruditeWitch> Yes it is the Death of Black that ushers Harry into the White stage or ALBUS [20:57] <Puzzlepiece> I think that is coincidence more than planted though [20:57] <GranjoGranger> Arthur's close call. [20:57] <memyslfnI> the entire hose of black represents decay and putrification.. [20:57] <AlchemistApprentice> black as in mind- Harry is in a black place [20:57] <EruditeWitch> He is the prince of Darkness in this one [20:57] <CarpeDiem> That's my thought too Al. [20:57] <EruditeWitch> but not at the end [20:57] <Love4Fawkes> well Capslock harry is reborn at the end of Ootp with new understand of his life. [20:57] <ProngsPatronus> and black as in spirit, too [20:58] <squalloogal> isn't the whole house at first dead and abandond? [20:58] <ProngsPatronus> capslock harry [20:58] <GranjoGranger> Harry deep in a black place [20:58] <fawkes28> it is necessary for Sirius to die so that Harry can reach a higher level of the above --- trying to use the right terminology [20:58] <squalloogal> harry and the order reserect it back to life [20:58] <cbm> Is learning the prophecy resurrection as it sets harry on his path? [20:58] <EruditeWitch> But as BLACK dies, Harry moves into white, which is where he is in Book Six. He is enlightened about VM and IN LOVE [20:58] <CarpeDiem> I see that too, fawkes. Well said [20:58] <squalloogal> the same thing that happens to sirus if only just before his death [20:58] <AlchemistApprentice> nwell one must die to lead the way for the next or to guide [20:58] <memyslfnI> he is being torn apart on all sides, he is being discredited and he is realizing that the govt. can be currupt, he is realizing his dad was not a saint. he is being torn down to be built up [20:58] <fawkes28> well, also Harry's mood throughout the book is dark until after Sirius dies and he learns the prophecy [20:58] <ProngsPatronus> as black dies in book 5, albus dumbledore comes to rescue harry [20:59] <MsCrookshanks2006> I agree loves.. Sirius would have stood infront o f harry [20:59] <fawkes28> his anger transforms into something productive but he must experience it in order to move on [20:59] <EruditeWitch> The prophecy brings in enlightenment. And the Mercurius Albedo Albus Dumbledore [20:59] <ProngsPatronus> and come to terms with it, too [20:59] <memyslfnI> it is acceptance that culminates in HBP. he has accepted his task [20:59] <squalloogal> but as he is torn something new is birthed [20:59] *** Puzzlepiece has quit [Bye] [20:59] <AlchemistApprentice> yes M embraced it [20:59] <memyslfnI> (hellow white stage!) [20:59] <EruditeWitch> Which means the WHITE can die and move into the RED [20:59] <EruditeWitch> Rubeus This post has been edited by fawkes28: Jun 20 2007, 08:56 PM |
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Jun 20 2007, 08:56 PM
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Organizing the Halo Rebellion Posts: 3,301 Joined: 2:09pm April 16, 2006 Location: Being angelic, of course |
[21:00] <ProngsPatronus> The sixth stage is called distillation or is known as the White Stage. This is a purification stage to prepare the person for their final goal of enlightenment. Did Harry succeed in achieving this stage?
[21:00] <AlchemistApprentice> goota go gang! hugs [21:00] <memyslfnI> interesting, the last line in HBP has to do with looking at the "golden" sun [21:00] <ProngsPatronus> thanks so much, Al [21:00] <EruditeWitch> Well he was more prepared than he was at the begining of this stage [21:00] <AlchemistApprentice> np [21:00] *** AlchemistApprentice has quit [Bye] [21:00] <EruditeWitch> and one last "golden day of peace" with R/Hr [21:00] <memyslfnI> They see gold on the horizon [21:00] <memyslfnI> yes [21:00] <Love4Fawkes> well he prepared for his final goal, but i'm not sure he actually acheived this stage [21:00] <MsCrookshanks2006> i think so.. he is preparing himself for what he has to do [21:00] <EruditeWitch> He did the moment WHITE died [21:01] <squalloogal> how can he have achieved it if it is not yet complete? [21:01] <ProngsPatronus> and we have Rubeus Hagrid carrying the body of Albus Dumbledore [21:01] <CarpeDiem> I think white will come when LV is dead maybe? [21:01] *** terivic has quit [Bye] [21:01] <ProngsPatronus> ushering in the red stage [21:01] <cbm> I have to go, bye [21:01] <EruditeWitch> "The difference between entering into the battle with your head held high and being dragged in" [21:01] *** cbm has quit [Bye] [21:01] <ProngsPatronus> bye, cbm [21:01] <janieb> Nice catch, Prings! [21:01] <Love4Fawkes> what is the red stage? [21:01] <memyslfnI> he did, he achieves the knowledge , the key to the white stage and the moving on to the red stage is to keep this knowledge and realization a permanant state [21:01] <CarpeDiem> Love that quote EruditeWitch [21:01] <janieb> oops, Prongs! [21:01] <EruditeWitch> That's when Harry becomes white...when he decides to hold his head high [21:02] <EruditeWitch> That's from the book [21:02] <memyslfnI> the red stage is the final stage after the chemical wedding [21:02] <EruditeWitch> BILL AND FLEUR! [21:02] <ProngsPatronus> and when he decides to leave Hogwarts, too--and carry on with his own "noble Work" [21:02] <nympheart> Bill and Fleur's wedding? [21:02] <memyslfnI> yes [21:02] <squalloogal> i don't like the red stage [21:02] <memyslfnI> it is a bloody stage [21:02] <janieb> Steak tartar, anyone? [21:02] <Love4Fawkes> so red will be achieved at the very end of the series? [21:02] <memyslfnI> we will see death [21:02] <GranjoGranger> Each book was a mini cycle so he completed the sixth one and moves to the seventh and highest/ [21:02] <EruditeWitch> When Harry becomes the power and DD yeilds control...that's what Harry is white [21:02] <Nimthiriel> gotta run guys! byeeeeee! [21:02] *** Riddle2 has quit [Bye] [21:03] <nympheart> bye nim [21:03] *** Nimthiriel has quit [Bye] [21:03] <ProngsPatronus> red is the last stage before the gold of the stone [21:03] <EruditeWitch> When Hagrid dies, so will The Red Stage end [21:03] <ProngsPatronus> bye, nim [21:03] <Love4Fawkes> oh, so DH is red [21:03] <chocolate89> hheading over to the coc guys [21:03] <chocolate89> been great! [21:03] <EruditeWitch> so Hagrid will fight in the warlike red stage [21:03] <chocolate89> later mates [21:03] <janieb> *jb tries not to think about the red stage* [21:03] <squalloogal> not hagrid [21:03] <memyslfnI> we see Hagrid's role in HBP beginning to form as a poeron of importance when McGonnegal asks him his opinion [21:03] <EruditeWitch> and when he dies, Harry goes on to gold [21:03] <CarpeDiem> See ya chocolate89 [21:03] <ProngsPatronus> thanks for coming [21:03] *** chocolate89 has quit [21:04] <ProngsPatronus> Snape, as the vitriol, shakes our foundation to the core when he kills Dumbledore. The vitriol is supposed to remain unchanged during the process of alchemy. What insight does alchemy give us in regards to Snape’s loyalty? [21:03] <squalloogal> thats nasty [21:04] <EruditeWitch> Red is carrying white to it's death [21:04] <ProngsPatronus> [21:04] <ProngsPatronus> and yes, we are going on for a little bit [21:04] <memyslfnI> vitriol is essential to the story [21:04] <janieb> Woo hoo! [21:04] <EruditeWitch> That he's in it for HIMSELF [21:04] <nympheart> That he must still hold the same loyalty he has throughout the series, apparently [21:04] <CarpeDiem> Wonderful! Thanks Prongs! [21:04] <squalloogal> i second that woo hoo [21:04] <nympheart> I agree EW [21:04] <EruditeWitch> either that, or he's been on one side the ENTIRE TIME [21:04] <EruditeWitch> which would have to be evil [21:04] <memyslfnI> it is a acid, and I said earlier, has no effect on gold byu redily dissolves other metals [21:05] <MsCrookshanks2006> Thanks Prongs [21:05] <MsCrookshanks2006> Thanks everyone! [21:05] <ProngsPatronus> my pleasure [21:05] <fawkes28> yes, EW [21:05] <MsCrookshanks2006> bye [21:05] <EruditeWitch> Snape killed Mercury [21:05] <memyslfnI> PP thanks for having this chat topic! [21:05] *** MsCrookshanks2006 has quit [Bye] [21:05] <Love4Fawkes> right nympheart, so he can't really be loyal to himself as that would been changing loyalties between DD and LV also [21:05] <EruditeWitch> Has he dissolved sulphur? [21:05] <GranjoGranger> so how could he kill DD? [21:05] <ProngsPatronus> you are welcome, M! [21:05] <fawkes28> which is why i think he started out on the bad side, there he will remain [21:05] <squalloogal> yep the whole oroborus thing has set me off for another month [21:05] <janieb> He is loyal to DD, but can't get over his hatred [21:05] <Punky> So he's the catalyst to make other changes occur but he's always had the same goal in mind? [21:06] <ProngsPatronus> the thing about snape is that he remains true to himself--to vitriol--his role in the books [21:06] <memyslfnI> yes PP a catylist is a perfect word [21:06] <fawkes28> however, really he is just in it for himself - he had to change to be on Dumbledore's side but the vitriol doesnt change [21:06] *** DeadlyChill has quit [Bye] [21:06] <EruditeWitch> Snape doesn't change [21:06] <EruditeWitch> I agree completely [21:06] <fawkes28> i think so, punky [21:06] <Love4Fawkes> i agree fawkes [21:06] <CarpeDiem> It's interesting that no one but Harry can create an emotional reaction from Snape either... [21:06] <ProngsPatronus> The seventh stage is called coagulation, which is the highest stage of perfection before achieving enlightenment. This stage brings about a new found confidence in oneself. What will this stage look like for Harry? [21:06] <memyslfnI> I think, since virtiol becomes a weak acid at the end of the process, that Snape will suffer, I think he will go blind [21:07] <fawkes28> yes, that is quite interesting carpe [21:07] <squalloogal> thats not true dd created an emotion of hate [21:07] <ProngsPatronus> that is a fascinating thought, M [21:07] <EruditeWitch> Accepting his "weakness" [21:07] <fawkes28> that is interesting too, M [21:07] <squalloogal> they argued in the forest [21:07] <EruditeWitch> that being Love. Which Harry isn't taking siriusly [21:07] <janieb> I think Ginny will be by his side at important times [21:07] <EruditeWitch> but he will after the Chemical Wedding [21:07] <ProngsPatronus> does it become weak because there is nothing else for it to purify/refine? [21:07] <EruditeWitch> when he sees how important it is. It is this love that will let him go on to become gold [21:07] <memyslfnI> I have no idea! LOL! [21:08] <squalloogal> so what is ginnie? [21:08] <ProngsPatronus> Lily had red hair--can she also be part of the red stage? [21:08] <EruditeWitch> She's Secret Fire [21:08] <memyslfnI> Harry will take charge, he has no distractions, )hogwarts, Quiddith< Ginny) He will be focused on his task [21:08] <fawkes28> i honestly think he is going to surrender himself to save the entire wizarding world and that is where some old magic will take place and bring down voldemort [21:08] <squalloogal> will she replace on of the trio when they die like her brother? [21:08] <EruditeWitch> La LA LA I'm not listening [21:08] <fawkes28> so he will rise above everyday things, M? [21:08] <EruditeWitch> Ron won't die [21:08] <squalloogal> is there a green stage? [21:09] <EruditeWitch> he's take his essence of Rue! [21:09] <memyslfnI> he has been distracted throughout, hasn't he..He will have to put all those aside and move ahead, IMO [21:09] <squalloogal> alot is said about green [21:09] <EruditeWitch> Ginny is representative of the love within Harry, that he will learn to carry with him like a sheild of confidence [21:09] <fawkes28> but he will also have to forgive to move ahead too [21:09] <EruditeWitch> but she won't be there, only in spirit. As a fire inside of him [21:09] <ProngsPatronus> there is something called the green lion, isn't there--a sort of flash between the white and red stages [21:09] <EruditeWitch> like M found on the symbol [21:10] <memyslfnI> yes fawkes, Harry as the quintessence, cannot hate [21:10] <fawkes28> he will have to forgive Snape, I believe and put his hatred aside in order to really achieve enlightenment [21:10] <janieb> I think that's the most important choice he will make (again), Fawkes [21:10] <squalloogal> green lion? [21:10] <memyslfnI> remember the book Harry reads in HBP? Quintessence: A Quest? [21:10] <fawkes28> yes, i do - gotta love those hints [21:10] <GranjoGranger> Harry read a book? [21:10] <squalloogal> whats the deal with green lion prongs? [21:10] <ProngsPatronus> M, explainh the green lion [21:11] <memyslfnI> he is still on his quest to balancing ..he cannot hate [21:11] <EruditeWitch> Biting my tongue to not let in my shippy snarkiness [21:11] <ProngsPatronus> I am not sure how to explain it properly [21:11] *** DeadlyChill has joined #lounge [21:11] <squalloogal> but green is important [21:11] <EruditeWitch> Lily's eyes [21:11] <memyslfnI> the green lion I thought was Vitriol, there is also a red lion [21:11] <squalloogal> harrys got his mothers eyes [21:11] <EruditeWitch> Gryffindor's Green Lion [21:11] <squalloogal> green eyes [21:11] <janieb> and a white lion as well [21:11] <squalloogal> green lion ....red dragon [21:12] <EruditeWitch> James is the Red Lion [21:12] <squalloogal> so is lilly the green lion? [21:12] <ProngsPatronus> ok, folks [21:12] <EruditeWitch> oh bummer! [21:12] <memyslfnI> Lilly is the white queen [21:12] <ProngsPatronus> that is all for tonight [21:12] <memyslfnI> LOL! We cold go on all night [21:12] <fawkes28> Thanks for coming to the chat! smile [21:12] <GranjoGranger> Is there an essay that explains all of this coherently? [21:12] <squalloogal> did griffindor have a green lion?????? don't remember seeing that [21:13] <fawkes28> and staying a little bit later too! [21:13] <janieb> You all rock the stone--thanks everyone! [21:13] <Love4Fawkes> we are over by 10 minutes. thanks for the extende chat! [21:13] <nympheart> I'm not sure how much more my brain could have taken [21:13] <ProngsPatronus> sorry--the subject is so vast, that we could go on all night1 [21:13] <EruditeWitch> does this turn into a thread or a different place for live chat? [21:13] <memyslfnI> see Ari's scribby essay in issue 1 and 2 [21:13] <Love4Fawkes> thanks everyone. this was a wonderful chat!!!! [21:13] <nympheart> it was very interesting, thanks! [21:13] <CarpeDiem> Wonderful questions and conversation all. [21:13] <fawkes28> yes, the essays are awesome! [21:13] <squalloogal> thankyou [21:13] <Punky> Thank you so much for this chat guys! [21:13] <memyslfnI> bye all! [21:13] <nympheart> bye [21:13] <CarpeDiem> Great job CB mods. Thanks! [21:13] *** nympheart left #lounge [] [21:13] *** memyslfnI has quit [Bye] [21:13] <ProngsPatronus> yes=---if you want to know about alchemy, read the scribbulus essays by arianhrod [21:13] *** Love4Fawkes has quit [Bye] [21:13] *** CarpeDiem has quit [Bye] [21:13] *** janieb has quit [Bye] [21:13] *** Punky has quit [Bye] [21:13] <ProngsPatronus> thanks for coming, everyone--I am glad we could have this chat! [21:14] <GranjoGranger> Most informative. Bye. [21:14] *** GranjoGranger has quit [Bye] [21:14] *** squalloogal left #lounge [] [21:15] *** EruditeWitch has quit [Bye] -------------------- |
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