WWW Chat Transcript: 7/11/07, Villainesses in HP |
 Jul 11 2007, 07:26 PM
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Organizing the Halo Rebellion  Posts: 3,301 Joined: 2:09pm April 16, 2006 Location: Being angelic, of course   |
Today's Text Chat Moderators were: Aislinn, fawkes28, Prongs Patronus
[18:57] *** fawkes28 has joined #lounge [19:03] *** cbm has joined #lounge [19:03] <cbm> Hi [19:03] <fawkes28> hey cbm [19:03] <Prongs> hey, cbm [19:03] <fawkes28> better now? [19:03] <Prongs> yes, thank you [19:04] <cbm> I guess the new interface did not work out [19:04] *** Joyhawk2121 has joined #lounge [19:04] <Prongs> neither did the old one [19:04] <fawkes28> hey joyhawk [19:04] <Prongs> hey, joyhawk [19:04] <fawkes28> do you guys still have a choice of the interface? [19:04] <Joyhawk2121> Hello all [19:05] <cbm> I just have the one I have always been using [19:05] <Prongs> !topic Villainesses in HP [19:05] <Prongs> this one looks all newish--not like the CB [19:05] *** Prongs left #lounge [Leaving] [19:05] <cbm> LOL, I just clicked on the same button I always have [19:06] *** ProngsPatronus has joined #lounge [19:06] <cbm> I did not notice the other one [19:06] <fawkes28> yay prongs is back [19:06] <ProngsPatronus> ahhhh [19:06] <ProngsPatronus> the CB [19:06] <ProngsPatronus> ! [19:07] <ProngsPatronus> there we go [19:07] <ProngsPatronus> all is right in the world [19:07] <fawkes28> yay!! [19:07] <fawkes28> so how is everyone? [19:07] <ProngsPatronus> :-) [19:08] <cbm> I am well! [19:08] <fawkes28> always good to hear [19:08] <ProngsPatronus> has anyone seen the movie yet? [19:08] <fawkes28> nope [19:08] <Joyhawk2121> I am good [19:08] <cbm> I will see it Friday [19:08] <Joyhawk2121> I may go tomorrow [19:08] <ProngsPatronus> lol--I am thinking that is why our group has been reduced for tonight, so far [19:08] <fawkes28> i am seeing it saturday [19:08] <cbm> I just need to figure out where [19:09] <ProngsPatronus> it is almost an hour to the nearest movie theater from my house, so these things have to be planned [19:09] <fawkes28> wow - you live in the middle of nowhere [19:10] *** memyslfnI has joined #lounge [19:10] <cbm> I may go to NYC on Friday and see it in IMAX, or see it on a big screen here that is 10 minutes away [19:10] <fawkes28> hey M smile [19:10] <memyslfnI> hi guys! [19:10] <ProngsPatronus> (((M))) [19:10] * ProngsPatronus wonders where Rudius is ... [19:10] <Joyhawk2121> Hi Memys [19:11] <memyslfnI> Hi!!! [19:11] <ProngsPatronus> M has seen the movie already [19:11] <memyslfnI> see my published works! LOL [19:11] <fawkes28> ah very lucky [19:11] <fawkes28> did you approve of the movie? [19:11] *** Joyhawk2121 left #lounge [Leaving] [19:11] <cbm> How was it? [19:12] *** Joyhawk2121 has joined #lounge [19:12] <memyslfnI> there were more liberties taken than in any other movie [19:12] <memyslfnI> there were more liberties taken than in any other movie [19:12] <memyslfnI> But, It was good [19:12] <fawkes28> how does it rank compared to the others? [19:13] <memyslfnI> Luna was wonderful as was snape and Umbridge and Bella [19:13] <memyslfnI> hmmmm [19:13] <memyslfnI> I still liked one the best, [19:13] <cbm> what about the other 5 kids who went to the ministry? [19:13] <fawkes28> one is very good - i enjoy 3 as well [19:14] <fawkes28> i hated 4 though [19:14] <memyslfnI> The trio was pretty good, I hated four too [19:14] <Joyhawk2121> I disliked four too [19:14] *** Aislinn has joined #lounge [19:14] <memyslfnI> Harry was good when sirius dies, the posession scene is wonderful, thought not canon [19:15] <fawkes28> hey aislinn [19:15] <cbm> I try not to think of the movies, it sometimes messes my book understanding [19:15] <memyslfnI> Aislinn I am going to Borders in Crossgates [19:15] <ProngsPatronus> hey, Aislinn! [19:15] <Joyhawk2121> Hey aislinn [19:15] <Aislinn> hi! [19:15] <Aislinn> are you? that's great! [19:15] <fawkes28> of course - got to enjoy the movies just as movies [19:15] <memyslfnI> yes fawkes, but I tihnk this movie was exciting, more than the others [19:16] <cbm> I am interested in how the night at the ministry plays out [19:16] <memyslfnI> but one has that special magical newness that CC captured [19:16] <cbm> mem, had you read any of the books before that? [19:16] <Aislinn> you saw it, M? [19:17] <cbm> before seeing the 1st movie that is [19:17] <Aislinn> I'm just talking to someone now that went to see it last night, and she really liked it [19:17] <Joyhawk2121> Guys I am leaving work and will rejoin you later if I can..Bye [19:17] <cbm> bye [19:17] <Aislinn> bye Joyhawk2121 [19:18] <fawkes28> Hey guys - we are going to start the chat and we know you all know the rules smile [19:18] *** Joyhawk2121 has quit [Bye] [19:18] <ProngsPatronus> Ok, folks--I am going to skip the regular announcements--you know the rules! [19:18] <fawkes28> lol [19:19] <ProngsPatronus> The Harry Potter Books are filled with good guys and villains as well as everyone in between. [19:19] <ProngsPatronus> Often times, men are the ones who are placed in the category of bad or evil characters. However, tonight we shall discuss three villainesses of the series: Narcissa Malfoy, Bellatrix Lestrange, and Dolores Umbridge. [19:20] <ProngsPatronus> How do you define the term villainess? [19:20] <memyslfnI> a feamle bad guy...LOL [19:20] <fawkes28> lol [19:20] *** memyslfnI has quit [Bye] [19:21] <ProngsPatronus> in the context of HP, I suppose it would be anyone who either works for LV, or who obstructs Harry's role as his bete noir [19:21] *** memyslfnI has joined #lounge [19:21] <fawkes28> but do you just have to be on the "bad guy's" side to be a villainess? [19:21] *** memyslfnI has quit [Bye] [19:21] *** memyslfnI has joined #lounge [19:22] <fawkes28> or do you actually have to do something that is evil? [19:22] <cbm> that is good prongs, but I think that if it meant saving dracos life, she would go against LV [19:22] <memyslfnI> I am having trouble ! LOL [19:22] <cbm> narcissa that is [19:22] <Aislinn> which button are you clicking? the Here hyperlink, or the grey button? [19:22] <ProngsPatronus> I am not so sure she would [19:22] <memyslfnI> the grey button [19:22] <fawkes28> because narcissa is different from the other two [19:22] <Aislinn> OK, that's the old forum, which is fine [19:22] <ProngsPatronus> that includes Umbridge in my definition [19:22] <cbm> she was going against LV when she made the vow with snape [19:23] <Aislinn> yes, Prongs, I was just going to include Umbridge [19:23] <ProngsPatronus> she tries to thwart Harry's every move [19:23] <fawkes28> true, cbm [19:23] <Aislinn> I think she is a villain [19:23] *** nympheart has joined #lounge [19:23] <cbm> Umbridge is a sadistic ... [19:23] <Aislinn> hi nymph [19:23] <fawkes28> but is villainess just defined as someone who goes against the hero? [19:23] <nympheart> hello [19:23] <fawkes28> hey nymph smile [19:23] <cbm> I thiink they need to do bad or evil acts to fit the bill [19:23] <Aislinn> maybe not directly against the hero, but certainly against the beliefs and values of the hero [19:24] <ProngsPatronus> no, I was doing that with the given that HP is on the side of the Light [19:24] <cbm> I also think that bad and evil are by definition against Harry's interests [19:24] <ProngsPatronus> I also think that people who knowingly hurt others can be included in that definition [19:24] <Aislinn> agreed cbm [19:24] <fawkes28> good point, prongs [19:25] <ProngsPatronus> hey, nymph--didn't see you come in! [19:25] <nympheart> hi Prongs, I'm sneaky like that [19:25] <cbm> would that make romilda vane a villianesse as she tried to ensnare harry with a love potion? Or does it take a more evil act? [19:26] <ProngsPatronus> she was being selfish, but not malicious [19:26] <nympheart> Romilda didn't actually mean to hurt Harry, at least she didn't think so, so I wouldn't say she counts [19:26] <fawkes28> and being a teenager [19:26] <ProngsPatronus> umbridge is malicious [19:26] <Aislinn> to me, it needs to be more evil, cbm [19:26] *** Love4Fawkes has joined #lounge [19:27] <nympheart> hi love [19:27] <fawkes28> is it also limited to age though? like pansy - could she be? [19:27] <cbm> I consider the who idea of a love potion to be bad, making someone love you against their will is pretty bad in my book [19:27] <ProngsPatronus> I think one has to have evil enshrined in the heart to be evil [19:27] <cbm> I like that prongs [19:27] <nympheart> I don't think people like Pansy actually understand what evil means [19:27] <ProngsPatronus> and then to act upon it, to become a villain/ess [19:28] <Aislinn> hey Love4Fawkes [19:28] <Love4Fawkes> Hi everyone [19:28] <fawkes28> hey love [19:28] <ProngsPatronus> so, a villainess is someone who acts upon the evil in their hearts [19:28] <memyslfnI> choices, as DD says! [19:28] <ProngsPatronus> hey, Love [19:28] <Aislinn> yes, Prongs, I'd agree with that [19:28] <ProngsPatronus> exactly, M [19:28] <Aislinn> choices - exactly [19:29] <ProngsPatronus> what do you think of that definition, cbm? [19:29] <ProngsPatronus> Are there any villainesses from other novels, who remind you of Narcissa, Bellatrix or Umbridge? [19:29] <cbm> I like that [19:30] * cbm was on the phone [19:30] <fawkes28> Bella could be the Wicked Witch of the West [19:30] <memyslfnI> Cruella D'Eville reminds me of Bella! Not the disney version, the Dodie Smith version [19:30] <ProngsPatronus> or east [19:30] <Aislinn> Cruella deville and bella seem a matched pair biggrin [19:30] <Aislinn> snap, M! [19:30] <fawkes28> oh, i like that you guys [19:30] <Love4Fawkes> I can see cruella deville and bella! [19:30] *** nympheart requested CTCP wonders from #lounge: what Bella would do to a puppy [19:31] <ProngsPatronus> the Queen in the original version of Snow White [19:31] <Aislinn> I hate to think of it, nymph! [19:31] <memyslfnI> read the novel, Smith is brilliant [19:31] <fawkes28> for which character, prongs? [19:31] <memyslfnI> the ice queen in Narnia [19:31] <ProngsPatronus> I was thinking for Narcissa [19:31] <ProngsPatronus> she is so self-absorbed [19:31] <ProngsPatronus> mirror, mirror, on the wall... [19:31] <fawkes28> yes, i was thinking that as well even though they are opposite in appearance their characters are similar [19:32] <nympheart> I like that Prongs [19:32] <fawkes28> umbridge is tough [19:32] <ProngsPatronus> for Umbridge, I have o go to Dickens [19:32] <ProngsPatronus> Uriah heep [19:32] <Aislinn> Umbridge also reminds me of the Nurse in One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest [19:32] <ProngsPatronus> Nurse Ratchett! [19:32] <Aislinn> that's the one [19:33] <fawkes28> ah, it's been so long since i read it [19:33] <Love4Fawkes> me two fawkes [19:33] * fawkes28 tries to remember [19:33] <ProngsPatronus> she is all about the rules [19:33] <memyslfnI> the George RR Martin Series, whats the name of the mother of the king? Aislinn I know you haave read them [19:33] <ProngsPatronus> there is no compromise for her [19:33] <Aislinn> exactly, prongs [19:33] <Love4Fawkes> Umbridge is all about creating the rules smile [19:33] <Aislinn> ooh, erm.... [19:33] <Aislinn> yes! [19:34] <Aislinn> :D [19:34] <fawkes28> she is getting me to read them too! [19:34] <fawkes28> havent read yet laugh [19:34] *** Aislinn has quit [Bye] [19:34] <memyslfnI> great books!!! [19:34] <cbm> She is about control and protecting fudge [19:34] <fawkes28> i have the first one sitting in the pile of books that i need to read [19:35] <ProngsPatronus> I was also thinking about an historical figure for DJU [19:35] <ProngsPatronus> Cardinal Richelieu [19:35] *** Aislinn has joined #lounge [19:35] <ProngsPatronus> Why did Jo choose not to make Andromeda Black, Narcissa and Bellatrix’s sister, a villainess? [19:35] *** NYBookworm has joined #lounge [19:35] <fawkes28> hey nyb [19:35] <ProngsPatronus> hey, NYB [19:35] <nympheart> I think the family trend needed to be broken [19:35] <nympheart> hi NYB [19:36] <cbm> To show that it is about choices and not birth [19:36] <NYBookworm> hi [19:36] <fawkes28> yes, nymph [19:36] <ProngsPatronus> I agree, cbm [19:36] <memyslfnI> yes cbm! [19:36] <fawkes28> not everyone in the family can turn out to be evil if they so choose [19:36] <fawkes28> same with Sirius [19:36] <ProngsPatronus> there would be a 'good' Slytherin for you... [19:36] <cbm> Look at sirius [19:37] <Love4Fawkes> Andromeda was also used to show how pure blood minded the Black family was [19:37] <memyslfnI> who did she marry again? [19:37] <nympheart> true love [19:37] <cbm> In her choice of who she married [19:37] <nympheart> Ted Tonks [19:37] <ProngsPatronus> Ted Tonks [19:37] <Aislinn> she married Ted Tonks [19:37] <memyslfnI> thanks! [19:37] <ProngsPatronus> lol [19:37] <ProngsPatronus> The name Narcissa comes from mythology. Narcissus could never stop admiring his own reflection. How have we seen this characteristic portrayed in Narcissa? [19:37] <Aislinn> and was Cersei who you were thinking of earlier, M? [19:38] <memyslfnI> thanks! Aislinn! another series I am waiting for! [19:38] <cbm> We also see her caring about Draco [19:38] <fawkes28> i think mostly as how she carries herself - she acts superior to everyone around her [19:38] <Aislinn> Narcissa does seem the type that is quite self involved [19:38] <nympheart> Narcissa never interacts much with other people [19:38] <ProngsPatronus> I think Draco is a reflection of her success as a pure-blood [19:38] <NYBookworm> definitely she seems to admire herself and her abiliteis and prehaps at [19:38] <NYBookworm> one time (before Azkaban she was like that with beauty as well) [19:38] <ProngsPatronus> he is living proof that she has 'done her duty' [19:38] <Love4Fawkes> I agree fawkes. We don't actually see her loving herself, but the way she acts we infer it [19:38] <memyslfnI> if her reflection is Draco, she may see herself in him [19:38] <fawkes28> yes, prongs - she is very proud to be a pureblood [19:39] <Aislinn> she seems to have that aristocratic, blue-blood attitude that everyone is inferior to her [19:39] <ProngsPatronus> I just don't think it is really love, in her case [19:39] <ProngsPatronus> more like obsession [19:39] <fawkes28> it's interesting that she fits the model that Hitler would have wanted - blond hair, the right blood status [19:39] <Aislinn> you don't think she loves Draco? [19:40] <nympheart> stereotypically she's also blonde, and that kind of has a vain vibe [19:40] <ProngsPatronus> not as much as she obsesses over him--no, not really [19:40] <fawkes28> i think she loves Draco but i dont know how true her love is for Lucius [19:41] <ProngsPatronus> I think that, as the father of her child and as a pureblood, she likes being married to him [19:41] <Aislinn> yeah, I tend to think of her as pampering him, which is similar to Petunia with Dudley [19:41] <nympheart> well, she wouldn't let Bella blame Lucius for what happened at the ministry [19:41] *** Love4Fawkes left #lounge [Leaving] [19:41] <ProngsPatronus> I don't really think that narcissa loves anyone but herself [19:41] <Aislinn> i do think she loves both of them [19:41] <Aislinn> do you think all of her actions in Spinner's End were feigned? [19:41] <cbm> I also think she loves draco and probably love lucius, though we have seen no sign of it [19:41] <ProngsPatronus> and the Black Toujours Pur [19:42] <fawkes28> i think her marriage with lucius was either arranged or she didnt have much of a choice otherwise because she had to marry a pureblood [19:42] <ProngsPatronus> in that sense, even though Lucius is a pureblood, she married beneath her station [19:42] <ProngsPatronus> no, not feigned--but a different motivator [19:42] <NYBookworm> I don't think she faked anything I think she loves Draco otherwise she [19:42] <NYBookworm> wouldn't have done that and she seems to defend lucius so she probably [19:42] <NYBookworm> loves him too [19:43] <Aislinn> but we don't know what his circumstances are - he clearly comes from money, so his family may be as pure as the Black one [19:43] <fawkes28> she wouldnt have gone to that length if she didny love draco [19:43] <Aislinn> that was my impression too, NYB [19:43] <ProngsPatronus> I think she defends Lucius because she is defending her place in society [19:43] <ProngsPatronus> Narcissa is all about herself [19:44] <fawkes28> but spinners end really contradicts that [19:45] *** MafaldaWeasley has joined #lounge [19:45] <ProngsPatronus> I am not so sure it does [19:45] <nympheart> hi Mafalda [19:45] <ProngsPatronus> hey, mafalda [19:45] <fawkes28> hey mafalda [19:45] <Aislinn> hey MafaldaWeasley [19:45] <MafaldaWeasley> hello guys!! good evening [19:45] <ProngsPatronus> Narcissa is described as pale with long, blond hair while Bella is described as quite the opposite with her skin and hair darker. Why does Jo portray these two villainesses as opposite in appearance? [19:46] <Aislinn> interesting question [19:46] <ProngsPatronus> it is an intereasting question [19:46] <cbm> brb [19:46] <Aislinn> maybe to make a distinction in our minds between the two sisters? [19:46] <MafaldaWeasley> interesting...maybe they are daugthers of different moms? [19:46] <fawkes28> you would think because Jo made them opposite in appearance, they would be opposite in character [19:46] <fawkes28> but they aren't [19:47] <nympheart> Bella is more involved with the Dark Arts and more deadly, Narcissa isn't as malicious, we've never heard of her hurting anyone [19:47] <ProngsPatronus> I think, perhaps, that Narcissa is once removed from LV--and Bella is up to her eyeballs [19:47] *** dracoloveroftheworld has joined #lounge [19:47] <nympheart> hi dracolover [19:47] <fawkes28> the one with the dark hair is more evil [19:47] <Aislinn> hi dracolover [19:47] <dracoloveroftheworld> hi [19:47] <fawkes28> hi dracolover [19:47] <MafaldaWeasley> helo Dracolover [19:47] <Aislinn> Narcissa does seem more removed from the DE action [19:48] <dracoloveroftheworld> yes she does [19:48] <fawkes28> i wonder if it foreshadows their future - the dark and the light [19:48] <nympheart> it might [19:48] <dracoloveroftheworld> what foreshadows what? [19:48] <ProngsPatronus> Harry has black hair [19:48] <MafaldaWeasley> I think Narcissa being so pale haha maybe she will become and Inferi [19:48] <memyslfnI> ying and yang, possibly [19:48] <fawkes28> we are talking about bella and narcissa's appearance [19:49] <ProngsPatronus> united in purpose, but opposite in action [19:49] <nympheart> that's good me [19:49] <dracoloveroftheworld> oh, well they are has different as night and day [19:49] <memyslfnI> two sides of the same coin [19:49] <dracoloveroftheworld> looks wise [19:50] <ProngsPatronus> When the two sisters are approaching Spinner’s End, Narcissa is the one who appears to be the dominant one while her sister struggles to catch up with her. What does this scene tell us about the sister’s relationship? [19:50] <MafaldaWeasley> seriously, I find hard that their appearance to be forshadowing. JK is very against steriotipes [19:50] <dracoloveroftheworld> it tells us that narcissa has the upper hand for bellatrix [19:50] <dracoloveroftheworld> over bellatrix i mean [19:51] <ProngsPatronus> bella is a one-note samba [19:51] <nympheart> Cissy can take a stand when she feels the need to, Draco being in danger really drove her [19:51] <fawkes28> i found this very interesting because usually bellatrix is the one who is loud and in charge and narcissa is in the background [19:51] <ProngsPatronus> Narcissa is much more focused [19:51] <Aislinn> I think that, even in her twisted state, Bella cares about her sister [19:51] <fawkes28> that is a good point, nymph [19:51] <fawkes28> she was very determined and nothing was going to stop her [19:51] <MafaldaWeasley> I think it shows that Bella cares for Narcissa. She fears Narcissa to be caugh [19:51] <dracoloveroftheworld> she should, they are blood related, and in reality, they really only have eacht other [19:52] <nympheart> Bella really isn't a leader. Ever. She only follows orders, but if I were LV I wouldn't trust her to make decisions either, she doesn't think properly. [19:52] <fawkes28> it was interesting that Bella kept falling behind and had to catch up [19:52] <dracoloveroftheworld> well she is a follower, yet she in her own twisted way could be a leader. [19:53] <memyslfnI> Narcissa is the dominant on ein the relatinship, Bella calls her "cissy", reverts back to when they were children almost [19:53] <MafaldaWeasley> I think her falling back, maybe Azkaban left a mark on her body as well. Narcissa on the other hand is perfectly healthie [19:53] <nympheart> That could very well be Mafalda [19:53] <dracoloveroftheworld> narcissa also has been living a life of luxury [19:53] <fawkes28> yes, malfada - i think being in azkaban had a huge impact on her mental state [19:53] <MafaldaWeasley> yes, me, I agree. [19:53] *** chocolateisnotforbreakfast has joined #lounge [19:54] <ProngsPatronus> and her physical state--look how haggard Sirius is [19:54] <dracoloveroftheworld> i agree as well [19:54] <nympheart> hi chocolate [19:54] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> !!! hi guys! [19:54] <fawkes28> hey chocolate! smile [19:54] <ProngsPatronus> hey, chocolate! [19:54] <dracoloveroftheworld> hi chocolate [19:54] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> :-D [19:54] <fawkes28> we've missed you in here [19:54] <Aislinn> hi chocolateisnotforbreakfast [19:54] <MafaldaWeasley> hi choco! [19:54] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i've missed you guys too! *hug* [19:54] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> what's the question/ [19:55] <ProngsPatronus> we have a new one coming up momentarily [19:55] <dracoloveroftheworld> what is it? [19:55] <ProngsPatronus> Narcissa made the Unbreakable Vow because she loves her son. How far would she go to protect Draco? [19:55] <nympheart> Far enough for Snape to potentially die [19:55] <dracoloveroftheworld> most mothers would die to protect their chldren [19:56] <ProngsPatronus> oh, I think she would protect her progeny however she could [19:56] <dracoloveroftheworld> i think she would die for him [19:56] <fawkes28> she seemed pretty desperate here - i think she would put her life on the line [19:56] <ProngsPatronus> short of dying [19:56] <ProngsPatronus> she's no Lily [19:56] <Aislinn> it is telling that she didn't sacrifice here - she asked Snape to do the sacrificing for her [19:56] <dracoloveroftheworld> why short of dieing [19:56] <fawkes28> no, she is not lily [19:56] <MafaldaWeasley> Far enought to not to care about anyone else but her son and her loss. Anybody on the way of their survival, must be eliminated. [19:56] <ProngsPatronus> yes, Aislinn [19:56] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> She would betray her husband [19:56] <fawkes28> that is interesting, aislinn [19:56] <dracoloveroftheworld> in a heartbeat, i dont think he really cares for draco [19:56] <ProngsPatronus> and her husband's 'employer' [19:56] <nympheart> and defy both LV and her sister [19:57] <dracoloveroftheworld> bcause none of them really care. [19:57] <memyslfnI> I agree, PP I don' t think she would die for Draco, but she would make sure others suffer if he is in dire straits [19:57] <dracoloveroftheworld> although i think snape might care for draco [19:57] <Aislinn> yes, I see her more as avenging, than as sacrificing [19:57] <ProngsPatronus> there is a world of difference in that, though, M [19:57] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i don't know dracolover... i think Snape cares more for the idea of a mother/son relationship than draco himself maybe? [19:57] <fawkes28> prongs, you think she is going to live up to her name then? [19:57] <ProngsPatronus> which is why I maintain that she does not really love Draco [19:58] <Aislinn> it is the same attitude of entitlement that she displays [19:58] <MafaldaWeasley> I think she didn't get in the way, because she couldn't. Had she stepped into it, LV would have killed them both [19:58] <ProngsPatronus> Lily stepped in the way [19:58] <dracoloveroftheworld> well she loves him in a way, that he is the only one that we know of to carry on the malfoy name [19:58] <memyslfnI> PP, do you think he is there to "further the Malfoy line?" that is what she sees him as? [19:58] <dracoloveroftheworld> lily had something she didnt. bravery [19:58] <ProngsPatronus> yes, I do [19:59] <dracoloveroftheworld> yes [19:59] <ProngsPatronus> Narcissa is all bout herself, and the position she holds in society [19:59] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> Draco and Narcissa are fiercely loyal to each other - it's obvious when anyone insults Draco's mother, or when Narcissa threatened the trio in Madam Malkins [19:59] <nympheart> The way Bella made it seem, it looks like it did take some guts to do what Cissy did [19:59] <ProngsPatronus> I think her son and husband are a reflection of that [19:59] <memyslfnI> she needs to keep up Appearances, hense, her name [19:59] <dracoloveroftheworld> well loyalty is one thing, and love is another [19:59] <MafaldaWeasley> I agree choco [20:00] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> There was one time when Harry insluted both Narcissa and Lucius in the same breath, and Draco only stood up for his mother [20:00] <fawkes28> very similar to Petunia in that way, M [20:00] <ProngsPatronus> oh, I think Narcissa is the WW equivvalent of Petunia [20:00] <dracoloveroftheworld> which mean he doesnt really care about his father [20:00] <nympheart> I agree with that Prongs [20:00] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> his father is just a source of power, i feel [20:00] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> not love or loyalty or affection [20:01] <ProngsPatronus> I think that his mother's revenge would be more intimate and more terrible to Draco [20:01] <dracoloveroftheworld> but at the moment he is out of the picture, draco is the lord untill lucius is free. [20:01] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> and draco couldn't handle it [20:01] <ProngsPatronus> which is all to the good, in Narcissa's eyes [20:01] <ProngsPatronus> she has her thumb on Draco [20:02] <dracoloveroftheworld> yes, b/c without someone strong in the picture, they have problems, but narcissa could be strong [20:02] <ProngsPatronus> and a blonde in Widow's weeds? Quite attractive [20:02] *** Love4Fawkes has joined #lounge [20:02] <dracoloveroftheworld> she could be the one in charge, really,. [20:02] <nympheart> wb, Love [20:02] <ProngsPatronus> wb, love [20:02] <Love4Fawkes> Thanks [20:02] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i think he's got too much of his mother in him... to be really evil you have to sever your connections with everyone, because other people are just a drain and a weakness... Draco can't be evil because he won't sacrifice his love for his mother. He wouldn't betray her, and almost took Dumbledore's offer to keep both of them safe. [20:02] <dracoloveroftheworld> which he should of. [20:03] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> he almost did, but was interrupted [20:03] <dracoloveroftheworld> which mean he could be suaded to at least tneutrality [20:03] <Love4Fawkes> I agree chocolate. Draco has the potiential to be evil, but again it is his choices [20:03] <memyslfnI> draco has not made choices that leave him beyond redemption. [20:03] <dracoloveroftheworld> it is the choices that makes us [20:03] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> right, me [20:03] <ProngsPatronus> I think Draco has learned the inclination to evil [20:03] <ProngsPatronus> after all, he has been steeped in it since birth [20:04] <nympheart> even so, he couldn't kill [20:04] <ProngsPatronus> I find Draco lazy, actually [20:04] <dracoloveroftheworld> so he needs a new background [20:04] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> me too, prongs [20:04] <memyslfnI> I think once he looked it in the face though, it was too much, so he lowered iwand [20:04] <ProngsPatronus> hwe really hasn't had to work for anything until HBP [20:04] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> he doesn't do anything for himself [20:04] <Aislinn> he is lazy [20:04] <Aislinn> again, very much like Dudders [20:04] <dracoloveroftheworld> yet, he can manpulate people [20:04] *** Love4Fawkes has quit [Bye] [20:04] <ProngsPatronus> which is what Harry's first impression of him is [20:04] *** Love4Fawkes has joined #lounge [20:05] <dracoloveroftheworld> definetl;y [20:05] <ProngsPatronus> The statement of intermarriage could also hold true for her sister Bellatrix. Hoe much do Bellatrix and Rodolphus actually love each other? [20:05] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i feel like both dudley and draco were raised into what they are, without much self-influence. They themselves don't know who they are [20:05] <nympheart> hard to say, we've never seen them together [20:05] <Aislinn> We don't really know much of anything about rodolphus [20:05] <fawkes28> she is always obsessing over voldemort [20:06] <Aislinn> it doesn't seem that it is a strong relationship [20:06] <memyslfnI> she certainly doesn't care if he is safe, she follows the dark lord and no other, he is second fiddle [20:06] <dracoloveroftheworld> most pureblood marriges ar arranged [20:06] <nympheart> though I think Bella is probably more interested in the war than her husband at the moment [20:06] <fawkes28> i think her marriage was done just because they are both purebloods [20:06] <ProngsPatronus> he is a complaisant husband, don't you think? [20:06] <fawkes28> yes, they both just seem to want power - i guess that is their common ground [20:06] <Love4Fawkes> I think she is more interested in LV than her husband [20:06] <dracoloveroftheworld> true. [20:06] <memyslfnI> she overpowers his presence [20:06] <ProngsPatronus> yes, she is, love [20:07] <nympheart> she definitely does, me [20:07] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i think someone with her ability to torture and murder shows that she is unable to be empathetic... she only has a husband to continue the pure-blooded line... it's loyalty to pure-bloodedness and to Voldemort that makes her marry, not love. If she was really able to love, how could she justify to herself killing a husband or a wife? [20:07] <ProngsPatronus> it is her mono-mania which dominates him, I think [20:07] <nympheart> it's interesting though that she hasn't managed to continue the pure-blood line as far as we know [20:07] <ProngsPatronus> she also says she would sacrifice a child of hers to LV in a heartbeat [20:07] <dracoloveroftheworld> she does love someone, her sister. [20:07] <Love4Fawkes> Bella said she would be more than willing to give up her only son to LV, that tell me she doesn't have much ability to love [20:07] <ProngsPatronus> that speaks volumes to me [20:07] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> right, prongs [20:07] <memyslfnI> yes PP! [20:08] <fawkes28> yes, it does, prongs [20:08] <Aislinn> I don't know why, but i get the impression that he is a weak man [20:08] <fawkes28> but then again - it is not surprising at all [20:08] <NYBookworm> I think she's just married because it appropriate for her staus [20:08] <NYBookworm> to be married, and perhaps she can't have children otherwise she [20:08] <NYBookworm> would've taken that stus step as we;; [20:08] <dracoloveroftheworld> i get the impression, that she lives to serve, which is why, she could very much love her sister. [20:08] <ProngsPatronus> I get the impression that the only common ground Bella and her husband have is LV [20:08] <Love4Fawkes> That would make sense Aislinn because she is such a strong presence [20:08] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> that's why narcissa is so different! she loves her son, while other death eaters only see children as a continuation of pure=bloodedness and another person to give to voldemort [20:08] <dracoloveroftheworld> i meanif you think about it, lv, loves himself, which shows us that everyone has the abilty to love [20:09] <ProngsPatronus> and yet, Draco is a Death Eater [20:09] <Love4Fawkes> I'm not sure LV even loves himself [20:09] <dracoloveroftheworld> he followed his father. [20:09] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i don't think he's self-loathing, though [20:09] <dracoloveroftheworld> well if he hated himself, he would be dead [20:09] <ProngsPatronus> as much as I would like to discuss that, dracolover, that will have to wait for another day [20:09] <memyslfnI> but, I think he was all talk, he wasn't ready, he was forced to [20:09] <dracoloveroftheworld> darn. [20:10] <ProngsPatronus> toniught is for the ladies [20:10] <dracoloveroftheworld> i feel bad for him [20:10] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> hehe [20:10] <memyslfnI> whats that song? Lagies night? [20:10] <dracoloveroftheworld> we dont give the ladies enough credit [20:10] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> I think they'll get it next week, Draco smile mother's love, i predict, will be big [20:11] <dracoloveroftheworld> nothing can break a mother's love [20:11] <ProngsPatronus> Bellatrix seems to have feelings for Lord Voldemort. What type of love, if any, does she feel toward him? [20:11] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> *cough* merope! [20:11] <ProngsPatronus> I think Voldemort is her God [20:11] <dracoloveroftheworld> she is the one that made lv. [20:11] <memyslfnI> she feels obsessive love [20:11] <Aislinn> obsession is the word [20:11] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i agree prongs [20:11] <ProngsPatronus> she is an acolyte [20:11] <Aislinn> hero worship [20:11] <ProngsPatronus> a disciple [20:11] <nympheart> I wouldn't call it love, I'd call it obsessive admiration [20:11] <Love4Fawkes> I agree, obsession [20:12] <fawkes28> obsession gone horribly wrong laugh [20:12] <Aislinn> I don't think Love has anything much to do with it [20:12] <dracoloveroftheworld> obession is powerful [20:12] <fawkes28> i think she wants power and he has power thus she is drawn to him [20:12] <memyslfnI> a desciple is a good word PP< Its almost like a cult [20:12] <ProngsPatronus> I think she lusts for power--personal power [20:12] <ProngsPatronus> something she and LV have in common [20:12] <nympheart> they also share a love for causing pain [20:12] <ProngsPatronus> yes [20:13] <memyslfnI> they ae sadistic [20:13] <Aislinn> I think she buys into his belief system [20:13] <ProngsPatronus> it is a marriage of minds who glory in living in Hell [20:13] <dracoloveroftheworld> well said [20:14] <fawkes28> she is weak and seeks someone strong to lift her up to greatness [20:14] <memyslfnI> she was raised on it, and embrases his power and outward goals. I wonder what will happen if she takes Harry's comment about Lv not being a pure blood to task [20:14] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> I think that she was raised to not love others... she loves pure-bloodedness, which she thinks Voldemort is, and she loves power [20:14] <Aislinn> yes, M, I do wonder if that shook her [20:14] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> voldemort personifies both, to her [20:14] <ProngsPatronus> is it love, or is it worship? [20:14] <Aislinn> not love [20:15] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> it's not love [20:15] <Love4Fawkes> it is close to worship [20:15] <Aislinn> she doesn't understand the concept [20:15] <fawkes28> she doesnt have it in her to love [20:15] <ProngsPatronus> not as we understand the concept [20:15] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i think she might have it, still... but it's so far buried and would require some psychology visits and drugs to get it out [20:15] <fawkes28> her soul is too impure [20:15] <dracoloveroftheworld> i have to go. bye guys. [20:16] <fawkes28> bye [20:16] <nympheart> bye dracolover [20:16] <ProngsPatronus> thanks for coming in, dracolover [20:16] <memyslfnI> bye [20:16] <Aislinn> bye dracolover [20:16] <ProngsPatronus> I do think that she has a chance of redemption [20:16] <ProngsPatronus> so the ability to love must not be wholly crushed in her [20:16] <memyslfnI> do you PP? I think she has likked too many [20:16] *** cbm has quit [Bye] [20:16] <nympheart> only if she gets counciling and drugs [20:16] <MafaldaWeasley> I think she does have some kind of love for her family or some love for the honor of the Name she carries. I think most of the Black were a bit disturbed by the pureblood concept and other issues [20:16] <memyslfnI> killed rather [20:16] *** dracoloveroftheworld has quit [Bye] [20:17] <Love4Fawkes> well, JKR said only LV was beyond redemption so I guess you would have to be right Prongs [20:17] <ProngsPatronus> Jo said everyone is capable of redemption, except LV [20:17] <ProngsPatronus> so, by definition, she has that chance [20:17] <fawkes28> yes, she did [20:17] <memyslfnI> that is true, good point [20:17] <ProngsPatronus> will she take it---no [20:17] <fawkes28> but i dont think she will take it [20:17] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i could picture her breaking down, seeing memories of her as a child, falling in love with a muggle boy and having it beaten out of her [20:17] <ProngsPatronus> eep [20:17] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> that would make you think differently of her [20:17] <nympheart> I thought what Jo said is that the mentally ill ones had no chance of redemption? I think I remember my mind jumping to Bella before LV [20:17] <ProngsPatronus> scary thought--much like Eileen Prince [20:18] <fawkes28> i think she is mentally ill actually [20:18] <ProngsPatronus> Most of the prisoners of Azkaban are driven into insanity by the dementors. How much of an effect have they had on Bellatrix? [20:18] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> and her motivations - motivations gotta come from somewhere [20:18] <memyslfnI> I think she will think about the muggle blood in Lord Voldemort and hesitatate [20:18] <Love4Fawkes> Maybe she's a little more insane, but I don't really think so [20:18] <nympheart> 14 years, I think they had an enormous effect on her [20:18] <memyslfnI> she is a nut jobber...dhe is unhinged [20:18] <ProngsPatronus> I thyink bella was mad before she entered the gates of Azkaban [20:18] <Aislinn> I think it honed her hard edge [20:19] <nympheart> probably, Prongs, but I think she's worse now [20:19] <Love4Fawkes> I agree Prongs [20:19] <fawkes28> i dont think she was too sane before azkaban so i think azkaban really put her far over that line of sanity [20:19] <ProngsPatronus> I think Azkaban focused her rage and mental instability [20:19] <fawkes28> she doesnt seem to live in reality [20:19] <memyslfnI> well, she tortured Frank and Alice LB , that is not a sign of a clear mental state [20:19] <MafaldaWeasley> I think it has taken all her sanity away, except her obssession for the Dark Lord and pure bloods. well, the same happened to Sirius, right? he got a bit shaken as well and what kept him sane, at least enought to have his powers on control was his obssession to get Peter [20:19] <Aislinn> and like Sirius, she may have hung on in a way that others didn't [20:19] <fawkes28> her use of that baby voice at the ministry - it is just not normal [20:19] <ProngsPatronus> lol--no it isn't, M [20:19] <Aislinn> rage is not a happy emotion, so she could focus on it [20:20] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> I think she was desensitized to violence and driven to partial madness before azkaban [20:20] <ProngsPatronus> rage can give great strength, though [20:20] <ProngsPatronus> I think that is part of why she is so dangerous [20:20] <Aislinn> it's something that the dementors couldn't suck out of her [20:20] <fawkes28> she gets a kick out of harming others - it is an illness [20:20] <nympheart> definitely, Prongs [20:20] *** Joyhawk2121 has joined #lounge [20:20] <nympheart> hi joy [20:20] <fawkes28> wb, joyhawk [20:20] <ProngsPatronus> wb, joyhawk [20:20] <Aislinn> welcome back Joyhawk2121 [20:20] <Love4Fawkes> Hi Joy! [20:20] <MafaldaWeasley> hello joy [20:21] <ProngsPatronus> we are talking about the madness of Bellatrix leStrange [20:21] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> her loyalty to voldemort got her through, I think... the thought that he would return and reward her... might have been "happy" though [20:21] <Joyhawk2121> Hello again everyone This post has been edited by fawkes28: Jul 11 2007, 08:20 PM |
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Jul 11 2007, 08:07 PM
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Organizing the Halo Rebellion Posts: 3,301 Joined: 2:09pm April 16, 2006 Location: Being angelic, of course |
[20:21] <nympheart> it might have been fact to her, chocolate
[20:21] <MafaldaWeasley> I don't think she was sick before. I think that on her mind she was doing the right thing. That's why she likes to hurt people, because he believes it's her right to do so. I think she got really ill after Azkaban [20:22] <memyslfnI> she certainy believed in her cause. [20:22] <ProngsPatronus> Bella was dueling with her cousin, Sirius, at the Ministry. Is she a better dueler than Sirius or did she just get lucky? [20:22] <MafaldaWeasley> choco, I think she was sure he would return and take her out, but I think her feelings were of revange of those who had locked her. It is not a happy feeling so she could have kept it [20:23] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> I feel like a lot of death eaters are driven by pure-bloodness... they follow Voldemort because he is the key to their pure-bloodedness meaning something. Bellatrix would certainly believe that and want to fight for Voldemort, if she believed he would provide that world for her [20:23] <Aislinn> I think a bit of both [20:23] <memyslfnI> I think sirius got careless and underestimated Bella [20:23] <nympheart> Sirius wouldn't have died if he hadn't been in front of the Veil [20:23] <Love4Fawkes> They were pretty evenly matched until she hit him, and if he wasn't near the veil he might not have died [20:23] <fawkes28> i think most of it was because sirius was in the house for a year [20:23] <MafaldaWeasley> yes, Nymph... [20:23] <Love4Fawkes> yes, fawkes. Very out of practice [20:23] <fawkes28> he was out of practice and still weak from azkaban [20:24] <Aislinn> she managed to elude other Order members, and took out Tonks, so she has some skills [20:24] <fawkes28> he also may have underestimated Bella too [20:24] <Aislinn> she got out of Azkaban later than he did, though, fawkes [20:24] <ProngsPatronus> I think she had changed since the last time he had seen her [20:24] <ProngsPatronus> I think that he underestimated her terribly [20:24] <MafaldaWeasley> I have no doubt Bellatrix is very skilled, but I think Sirius wouldn't be dead if he had not fallen through the veil [20:24] <nympheart> true fawkes, Sirius was taunting her [20:24] *** svernor has joined #lounge [20:24] <Aislinn> hi svernor [20:24] <Joyhawk2121> I think so too Prongs [20:24] <fawkes28> she did, but i think she was able to bounce back more quickly than sirius [20:24] <ProngsPatronus> hey, svernor [20:24] <nympheart> hi svernor [20:25] <ProngsPatronus> ok--one more bella question [20:25] <ProngsPatronus> then we will move on to DJU [20:25] <memyslfnI> sirius was fighting his own demons, he felt useless and I think that made him cocky [20:25] <MafaldaWeasley> Sirius was cocky [20:25] <ProngsPatronus> After Harry failed to use an Unforgivable Curse on Bellatrix, she tells him that you have to really mean them and want to cause them pain. Out of all the Death Eaters, how evil would you consider her to be? [20:25] <Aislinn> that's true me [20:26] <Aislinn> I think she's right up there as one of the most evil [20:26] <Love4Fawkes> I think she is one of the most evil. [20:26] <nympheart> I think she'd have to be right at the top [20:26] <Aislinn> she seems to glory in causing pain and suffering [20:26] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> agreed with aislinn [20:26] <ProngsPatronus> I think that cockiness is a Black family trait [20:26] <nympheart> I'd put her above Lucius [20:26] <Aislinn> look at how she reacted to finding out who Neville was [20:26] <fawkes28> yes, besides voldemort - i would say she is the evilest [20:26] <Love4Fawkes> lol, it does seem to be Prongs [20:26] <memyslfnI> i do too. she is willing to kill anyone in her wy, and she enjoys it [20:26] <fawkes28> that was horrible, aislinn [20:26] <MafaldaWeasley> yes PP, totally a family thing. [20:26] <ProngsPatronus> right next to LV---where she wants to be [20:26] <Joyhawk2121> I think she's at the top of the list [20:27] <MafaldaWeasley> I think she's metally disturbed and she believes she's acting properly, but I wouldn't give her the top of the list [20:27] <fawkes28> the way she talks about having to really want to cause pain really chills you to the bone [20:27] <Aislinn> when she hit Neville with the Cruciatus, and then said "That was just a taster" - Ooh, that was pure evil. [20:27] <ProngsPatronus> it does me, too [20:27] <memyslfnI> yes aislinn [20:27] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> just like some nazi soldiers seemed to enjoy doing their work in concentration camps, is how I see her [20:28] <memyslfnI> good one Chocolate [20:28] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> but she doesn't seem as strong or confident when she isn't around enemies [20:28] <ProngsPatronus> but at least she is honest about it, which is more than I can say about our next vilaainess [20:28] <nympheart> I wonder how evil someone can be considered to be when they are completely out of their mind? They can't see situations and actions the same way. [20:28] <Love4Fawkes> All the death eaters seem to enjoy their work though [20:28] <ProngsPatronus> mental illness does not, except in very extreme cases, absolve one of resposibility for one's actions [20:28] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> she gets her power, her sense of self, from hurting others... if she doesn't have someone to hurt or someone to overpower, then she sees herself as useless to Voldemort's cause [20:29] <Aislinn> yes, chocolate, and that cannot be excused. [20:29] <MafaldaWeasley> yes Nymph, that's why i don't give her the top of the list. [20:29] <fawkes28> she had to have tortured neville's parents for a long time - which is one of the evilest acts in the series [20:29] <nympheart> you wouldn't consider Bella's case to be extreme? [20:29] <ProngsPatronus> a rue sadist [20:29] <ProngsPatronus> no [20:29] <ProngsPatronus> LV is extreme [20:29] <ProngsPatronus> Bella is not [20:29] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i think she knows what she's doing... it's premeditated, which isn't forgiven in mental illness cases [20:30] <ProngsPatronus> although she is close [20:30] <memyslfnI> i agree fawkes, and one probably watched the other one get tortured, so they knew what was going to happen to them [20:30] <fawkes28> after all she has done, i dont think she really should be redeemed [20:30] <ProngsPatronus> not up to us, fawkes [20:30] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> take that back, i don't know that last statement for a fact lol [20:30] <MafaldaWeasley> many crazy people act premiditated [20:30] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i withdraw my statement :-D [20:31] <ProngsPatronus> Harry and Dudley are attracted by dementors on Privet Drive, and they could have had their soul sucked out of them, which cannot be reversed. What would cause Dolores Jane Umbridge to commit such a crime? [20:31] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i don't get her motivations [20:31] <memyslfnI> she wanted Harry "out of the way", he was causing fudge stress, and it was all for fudge [20:32] <Aislinn> Her value system is one that is dominated by self centered views of right http://www.leakylounge.com/index.php?act=p...302456&st=0 Leaky Lounge - Harry Potter discussion forum for movies, books, and more! -> Editing Post WWW Chat Transcript: 7/11/07and wrong, and a desire for power [20:32] <ProngsPatronus> to me, she is more evil than Bella [20:32] <nympheart> I've often wondered if the dementors weren't supposed to Kiss them, just scare them. It seems sometimes that dementors are drawn to Harry's soul. [20:32] <fawkes28> she wanted power - to please fudge - even though i dont think he would have approved of it [20:32] <memyslfnI> I agree PP [20:32] <MafaldaWeasley> yes, I agree Prongs [20:32] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> it feels like pure power without reason is really strange... did she love fudge? did she want to have political power for a reason, to achieve something? [20:32] <Aislinn> she doesn't care who she hurts in the process. [20:32] <Love4Fawkes> She is obsessed with Fudge [20:32] <fawkes28> fudge is just a git he is not evil like umbridge [20:32] <Aislinn> I don't think she is obsessed with fudge [20:32] <memyslfnI> she was the bella to fudges LV [20:32] <ProngsPatronus> she is obsessed with being the eminence gris [20:32] <Aislinn> I think she is obsessed with the system, and being at the top of that system [20:32] <MafaldaWeasley> She's obssessed to keep the status quo actually, not Fudge, but to keep her position, her power [20:33] <ProngsPatronus> the power behind the throne [20:33] <Love4Fawkes> She LOVES power [20:33] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i want to know what she wanted... did she want to eradicate half-breeds because of a bad childhood experience? if there's one thing i don't like about JKR's stuff is that sometimes, some characters do things for reasons that are too simple... and real people aren't that simple [20:33] <fawkes28> she could have had harry's soul sucked out - it is a huge crime - i cant even comprehend her thought process there [20:33] <ProngsPatronus> it certainly speaks to her own insecurities, doesn't it? [20:33] <Aislinn> Her willingness to sacrifice others with no hesitation, in pursuit of maintaining the Status Quo, is truly chilling. [20:33] <nympheart> we really have no idea what Umbridge's background is at all [20:33] <memyslfnI> but she wanted to please fudge, we don't know if she wanted his spot in the furture, but she wanted to be recognized by him [20:33] <memyslfnI> I think they are related [20:34] <memyslfnI> they both are described as Frog like [20:34] <memyslfnI> they both are described as Frog like [20:34] <Aislinn> that's possible, Me [20:34] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> usually people want power for a reason... to change something or to achieve a goal that they couldn't achieve without that power [20:34] <fawkes28> she may have wanted his position [20:34] <ProngsPatronus> she must have made peace with the loss of Fudge, though--she still retains her power in Scrimgeour's reign [20:34] <memyslfnI> brother and sister perhaps [20:34] <fawkes28> but i dont think he would have been happy if she was successful [20:35] *** cbm has joined #lounge [20:35] <Aislinn> I think it is about the bureaucracy itself, and being at the top of the established food chain. [20:35] <memyslfnI> the woman behind the man, she makes the calculated moves to keep him in power [20:35] <ProngsPatronus> yes, Aisliin, I agree [20:35] <Aislinn> not about any particular Minister [20:35] <MafaldaWeasley> yes Aislinn [20:35] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> but what did she get out of it [20:35] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> other than power - power's too simple [20:35] <ProngsPatronus> power for herself [20:35] <cbm> r u talking about the toad? [20:35] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> yes [20:35] <ProngsPatronus> she is a master manipulator and insinuator [20:35] <memyslfnI> she got Hogwarts, all to herself [20:35] <Aislinn> being part of what she sees as the "in" crowd - the established power [20:35] <MafaldaWeasley> she got Hogwarts and the change to form minds [20:36] <cbm> what does any sychophant get out of it? I have no idea. [20:36] <ProngsPatronus> in fudge, she got the masochist to her sadist [20:36] <ProngsPatronus> I think that is why they were so close [20:37] <ProngsPatronus> she may have a harder time of it with Scrimgeour, though [20:37] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> even nazi germany had a reason and a motivation to do what they did, even if it was an absolutely crazy reason... i wonder what motivated her [20:37] <Joyhawk2121> testing [20:37] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i see ya joy [20:37] *** Love4Fawkes has quit [Bye] [20:37] <ProngsPatronus> Scrimgeour wants something from Harry, badly [20:37] <Aislinn> continuing what felt familiar and safe to her, chocolate [20:37] <MafaldaWeasley> he wants to be legitimated on the power as well [20:37] <ProngsPatronus> I can see him sacrificing Dolores on the altar of necessity [20:37] <cbm> I would call fudge an egomaniac, not a sadist [20:37] <Joyhawk2121> thanks Choco [20:37] *** hrh7 has joined #lounge [20:38] <fawkes28> hey hrh7 [20:38] <ProngsPatronus> hey, hrh [20:38] <Aislinn> she sees anything outside of the Ministry party line as threatening the Status Quo [20:38] <nympheart> hi hrh [20:38] <hrh7> hi [20:38] <Aislinn> hi hrh [20:38] <MafaldaWeasley> hi HrH [20:38] <ProngsPatronus> she loves the control, too [20:38] <ProngsPatronus> as much as power [20:38] <fawkes28> she is acting like a nazi soldier [20:38] <hrh7> Are we talking about Umbridge? [20:38] <ProngsPatronus> lol [20:38] <ProngsPatronus> yes [20:38] <Aislinn> yes [20:38] <MafaldaWeasley> no, I don't see her as a nazi, I see her a buroucrat [20:39] *** delafayette has joined #lounge [20:39] <Aislinn> hey delafayette [20:39] <nympheart> hi delafayette [20:39] <delafayette> We chatting? [20:39] <MafaldaWeasley> hello delafayette [20:39] <ProngsPatronus> hey, dela [20:39] <ProngsPatronus> Dolores Jane Umbridge is described with a “pallid, toadlike face” with her pink cardigan. Her voice is described as, “high-pitched, breathy, and litte-girlish”. How did you make judgements on Umbridge based on her appearance? [20:40] <ProngsPatronus> I knew she was bad news [20:40] <Aislinn> it was such an effective picture to paint [20:40] <fawkes28> i thought she was fake [20:40] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i wonder if she was just as afraid as fudge to admit that Voldemort had returned? maybe something awful happened to her when he was first in power, and she was willing to do anything to keep lying to herself and everyone to prevent him from returning/ [20:40] <Aislinn> she sees herself as innocent and girly, but it is clearly so fake [20:40] <fawkes28> i didnt initially think she was evil though - just fake [20:40] <MafaldaWeasley> somebody that values apparences [20:40] <cbm> Her appearance is made to resemble a toad as she fits the definition of a toady [20:40] <Aislinn> wolf in sheep's clothing [20:40] <fawkes28> i also thought she was going to be ditzy [20:40] <ProngsPatronus> good point, cbm [20:41] <nympheart> I instantly thought she was going to be really annoying [20:41] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i had a teacher like her.... so obnoxious [20:41] <cbm> someone else in my reading group pointed it out and it made total sense to me [20:41] <Joyhawk2121> axactly Aislinn [20:41] <delafayette> Ever see Kim Possible? [20:41] <ProngsPatronus> that is the kind of description one would associate with a Marilyn Monroe [20:41] <nympheart> she kind of reminded me of my dentist... [20:41] <cbm> not in any marilyn pictures I have ever seen [20:41] <delafayette> ther episode with the stuffed animal lady [20:41] <ProngsPatronus> I mean the attributes [20:41] <cbm> ok [20:41] <fawkes28> i can see that, prongs [20:42] <nympheart> nope, sorr dela [20:42] <ProngsPatronus> breathy , high pitched voice [20:42] <ProngsPatronus> little -girl like [20:42] <ProngsPatronus> all that pink [20:42] <cbm> she is short and squat, that is what I remember about her [20:42] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> reminded me of bellatrix... her baby voice [20:42] <delafayette> Umbridge makes me think of her [20:42] <ProngsPatronus> I hated pink before I read Ootp--now, it reminds me of her [20:42] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> the second time through, obviously lol [20:43] <fawkes28> gee, thanks laugh [20:43] <MafaldaWeasley> I always thoguth Umbridge was very fat and mean looking like a frog, very ugly haha, not Imelda Stanton [20:43] <ProngsPatronus> sorry, fawkes [20:43] <ProngsPatronus> I think of your colour as fuschia [20:43] <fawkes28> good [20:43] <cbm> I agree comepletely mafalda [20:43] <nympheart> Staunton did pull off the acting well though [20:44] <ProngsPatronus> We see Umbridge villainess ways with Harry’s detentions. How effective is this punishment? Which punishment in the muggle world is comparable to Umbridge’s? [20:44] <delafayette> I am not going to see the movie till sunday [20:44] <Aislinn> that punishment was appalling! [20:44] <ProngsPatronus> I think it was hideously effective [20:44] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> nothing compares... it's total physical and mental punishment [20:44] <fawkes28> not too effective because harry kept speaking his mind [20:44] <nympheart> It made Harry more defiant [20:44] <Aislinn> it displayed definitively what an evil woman she really was [20:44] <ProngsPatronus> it is like corporal punishment in a militant group [20:45] <delafayette> ya just ticks him off [20:45] <fawkes28> it is the worst physical abuse [20:45] <Joyhawk2121> That was just cruel I think [20:45] <MafaldaWeasley> I think it would have worked with everybody else that was not Harry. [20:45] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> reminded me of The Chokey from Matilda... a horrible punishment that is too awful to tell parents about [20:45] <Aislinn> it is psychological as well, fawked [20:45] <cbm> the length of the tortures is what makes it cruel [20:45] <Aislinn> fawkes [20:45] <fawkes28> it writes in his own blood - how sick and twisted can you get? [20:45] <MafaldaWeasley> yes cbm. I agree [20:45] <Aislinn> the words she forced him to write, and the way she took credit for him controlling his temper [20:45] *** memyslfnI has quit [Bye] [20:46] <ProngsPatronus> it is sick and twisted [20:46] <Aislinn> I could feel my blood pressure rising as I read it [20:46] <MafaldaWeasley> Harry was a bit dummy as well, he should have complain to Minerva about it. [20:46] *** svernor has quit [Bye] [20:46] <cbm> and she still works for the ministry, that is what bugs me [20:46] <delafayette> wouldn't you think someone else would know what she is like at the Ministry? [20:46] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i love when harry pulls it out again to Slughorn... telling him "i must not tell lies" and brandishing his scar [20:46] <ProngsPatronus> she is the reason why OotP is my least favourite book [20:46] <Aislinn> yes, cbm! [20:46] <fawkes28> but psychologically, harry could hold his own - he didnt let her wear him down [20:46] <Aislinn> she really needs to receive some karmic retribution [20:46] <MafaldaWeasley> it's my leats favorite as well PP. [20:46] <fawkes28> Only 15 minutes left, everyone! This has been a great chat! I want to remind you all that this transcript can be found at the Corner Booth Forum http://www.leakylounge.com/Corner-Booth-f184.html. [20:47] <ProngsPatronus> wow--time flies when one is having fun [20:47] <Aislinn> oh, it's one of my favorites, but it wasn't the first time I read it [20:47] <Aislinn> the tension in it is hard to take at first [20:47] <MafaldaWeasley> yes, she could be transformed into a bug and being stepped over by a centaur [20:47] <fawkes28> yes, me too, Aislinn [20:47] <ProngsPatronus> Which Education Decree was the most unfair? Why? [20:47] <Joyhawk2121> It's one of my favorites as well [20:48] <nympheart> the one where Umbridge gets to assign punishments [20:48] <cbm> her taking over the punishments [20:48] <fawkes28> declaring herself headmaster [20:48] <MafaldaWeasley> I think all of them. They were totally biased [20:48] <nympheart> suddenly justice is very subjective [20:48] <fawkes28> how dare she take over dumbledore's role [20:48] <delafayette> High Inquisiter one [20:48] <Joyhawk2121> I agree all of them were biased [20:48] <Aislinn> the one where she has authority above the teachers [20:49] <cbm> my favorite was when she tried to sensor the quibler [20:49] <nympheart> that was hilarious, cbm [20:49] <fawkes28> yes, cbm - she was very foolish [20:49] <Aislinn> idiot woman [20:49] <ProngsPatronus> she never knows when to stop [20:49] <delafayette> didn't the inquisiters burn witches for hearicy in the middle ages? [20:49] <ProngsPatronus> to me, this was one of the most 'star wars moment in the series [20:50] <cbm> she is a control freak trying to control something that was beyond her control [20:50] <ProngsPatronus> the more you tighten your grip, the quicker they slip from your grasp... [20:50] <ProngsPatronus> Umbridge insulted the centaurs in the forest by calling them filthy half-breeds. Thus, she got carried off by them. Did the punishment fit the crime? [20:50] <cbm> yes [20:50] <Aislinn> it did, but it wasn't enough [20:51] <ProngsPatronus> yes, it did [20:51] <Joyhawk2121> yes [20:51] <fawkes28> it wasnt enough? [20:51] <ProngsPatronus> I cheered [20:51] <delafayette> true she got away didn't she? [20:51] <cbm> if only it had taught her some humility [20:51] <Aislinn> it fit that particular crime, but she needs to answer for other crimes [20:51] <nympheart> I think it fit all of her crimes, but not just that one [20:51] <NYBookworm> well I don [20:51] <cbm> agreed aislinn [20:51] <NYBookworm> know that I would've thought so if it weren't for the rest of the book her actiosn [20:51] <MafaldaWeasley> naaa, DD was way to nice to get her out [20:51] <ProngsPatronus> I think o9f it as the other half of the golden Rule [20:52] <ProngsPatronus> the part that spells out the consequences of one's actions [20:52] <MafaldaWeasley> I wonder what they did to her, though [20:52] <cbm> we will see what happens to the ministry in DH, maybe she will get her just reward, though it would not surprise me if she turned into a DE [20:53] <ProngsPatronus> hehehe--I am content to leave that one to my fertile imagination, mafalda [20:53] <nympheart> I don't think she's a DE, she'd start challenging LV's power eventually if she were [20:53] <delafayette> ;put her head in the time jar [20:53] <ProngsPatronus> Out of the three villainesses: Narcissa, Bellatrix, and Umbridge, who do you consider to be the most evil? [20:53] <Aislinn> she needs to be revealed as the evil, ugly toad that she really is [20:53] <Aislinn> Umbridge [20:53] <ProngsPatronus> Umbridge [20:54] <MafaldaWeasley> Umbridge [20:54] <nympheart> hard question, not Narcissa [20:54] <cbm> I do not think she is a DE, but what happens to the power hungry when the only power left is LV? [20:54] <Joyhawk2121> Bellatrix [20:54] <delafayette> Ya Umbridge [20:54] <cbm> Bella, Umbridge, Narcissa [20:54] <Aislinn> Bella is a close second [20:54] <ProngsPatronus> that is a good question, cbm [20:54] <delafayette> that was evil Bellatrixs was mean [20:54] <MafaldaWeasley> It's hard to judge Narcissa. We have too little about her [20:54] <ProngsPatronus> I agree, aislinn [20:55] <cbm> I consider what she did to the longbottoms to be the worst act done in the series so far [20:55] <nympheart> I'd really like to know Umbridge's past before I can judge [20:55] <delafayette> Narcissa was mislead like Malfoy [20:55] <Aislinn> Narcissa is vain, egotistical, bigoted, but not in the same league as the other two [20:55] <hrh7> Bellatrix kills with no remorse. [20:55] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> Bellatrix [20:55] <ProngsPatronus> Bella did the worst thing--but, overall, I pick Umbridge [20:55] <MafaldaWeasley> who knows... we haven't seen Narcissas real motivations to judge [20:55] <cbm> we do not know bella on a daily basis [20:55] <Aislinn> Umbridge would have also, hrh7, if Harry had not stopped the dementors [20:56] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> Narcissa was willing to sacrifice the life of another person to keep her son safe... that's pretty selfish, even if it is out of love [20:56] <MafaldaWeasley> Longbottoms were attacked by a pak of mad people..it's sad indeed [20:56] <Aislinn> she at least asked him to volunteer though, chocolateisnotforbreakfast [20:56] <ProngsPatronus> it is interesting that Umbridge would have performed the Cruciatus on Harry, if Hermione had not stopped her [20:56] <Aislinn> yes, Prongs - her actions aren't that different from Bella's [20:56] <ProngsPatronus> the same curse [20:57] <MafaldaWeasley> yes, choco... I find her to judege her without knowing the nature of her connection to Snape and her motivations,so Narcissa is an opend subject [20:57] <Aislinn> but she hides them under a fluffy pink cardigan [20:57] <ProngsPatronus> she just hides her evil under a patina of harmlessness [20:57] <Aislinn> lol [20:57] <ProngsPatronus> Bella, at least, is not ashamed of her evil [20:57] <delafayette> Umbridge is like a female LV [20:57] <ProngsPatronus> ok--one last question for the night [20:58] <ProngsPatronus> Which of these women will live and which will die? [20:58] <cbm> Maybe more like a female lucius as her evil is in support of someone else [20:58] <cbm> bella dead umbridge dead narcissa live [20:58] <MafaldaWeasley> Narcissa will die. Bella and Umbridge will live and pay for their acts [20:58] <nympheart> I think Umbridge will live as a failure, and the others will die [20:59] <delafayette> Just bella dies [20:59] <Aislinn> that would be wonderful, nymph - to have her live as a failure [20:59] <ProngsPatronus> I agree with you, nympheart [20:59] <Joyhawk2121> I think Umbridge and Narcissa will live and Bella will die [20:59] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> I think they'll all live [20:59] <delafayette> probably by Nevilles hand [20:59] <cbm> I think narcissa will try to protect draco and that may save her also [20:59] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i could see bellatrix killing draco [21:00] <ProngsPatronus> too bad there isn't a ward at St. Mungo's for the criminally insane [21:00] <delafayette> but not by an unforgivable curse [21:00] <MafaldaWeasley> Oh, I so do not want Neville to kill. I want him to live happily, and for that he must bust Bellatrix and put her into jail [21:00] <ProngsPatronus> I so agree, mafalda! [21:00] <delafayette> he will like trip her and she will fall off something [21:00] <MafaldaWeasley> I don't think it would be fair with Neville and all he represents to have to kill [21:01] <fawkes28> i think bella will die [21:01] <delafayette> like an accidential death while fighting [21:01] <ProngsPatronus> yes--and it would make an interesting contrast for the end of the book [21:01] <fawkes28> i cant picture jo letting her live [21:01] <ProngsPatronus> Neville--the Boy Who Almost Was, with the intact soul [21:01] <MafaldaWeasley> I find hard Narcissa to live... [21:01] <MafaldaWeasley> hehe Prongs [21:01] <ProngsPatronus> Harry, The Boy Who Lived-- with Voldemort's death on his conscience [21:02] <MafaldaWeasley> yeah...it's too cruel [21:02] <fawkes28> if narcissa lived, she would come after harry herself [21:02] <fawkes28> i mean bella [21:02] <delafayette> I don't think narcissa will bw that promanant in book 7 [21:02] <cbm> I think he could sleep well after that [21:02] <hrh7> I think Bella will die. She would do anything to help or save LV so unless he lives I think she will die trying to save him.. [21:02] <nympheart> with Ginny's help, cbm [21:03] <MafaldaWeasley> I think we are going to see her die in the very begining of the book, but that's me and my nuts over here [21:03] <ProngsPatronus> love is a sovereign medicine [21:03] <fawkes28> Well, it was a great chat, but we must say our goodbyes now [21:03] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i can't believe it's almost over! [21:03] <fawkes28> thanks for coming everyone! [21:03] <cbm> 10 days smile [21:03] <ProngsPatronus> folks, I hate to say it, but it is time to turn out the lights for another Wednesday chat! [21:03] <Joyhawk2121> Bye guys gotta watch Larry King with Daniel Radcliff as the guest tonight [21:03] <delafayette> bye [21:03] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> 9 days! [21:03] <MafaldaWeasley> bye guys! [21:03] <nympheart> bye everyone! Great chat! [21:04] <ProngsPatronus> absolutely, joy! [21:04] <MafaldaWeasley> have a great week [21:04] *** nympheart left #lounge [Leaving] [21:04] <hrh7> Thanks. Bye [21:04] <Joyhawk2121> great chat all [21:04] <cbm> bye [21:04] *** MafaldaWeasley has quit [Bye] [21:04] *** hrh7 has quit [Bye] [21:04] <delafayette> Oooh did you hear regis kept kallin dan Harry lol [21:04] <ProngsPatronus> be sure to vote for next week's topic! [21:04] <Aislinn> bye folks! see you next time smile [21:04] *** cbm has quit [Bye] [21:04] *** delafayette has quit [Bye] [21:04] *** NYBookworm has quit [Bye] [21:04] *** chocolateisnotforbreakfast has quit [Bye] [21:04] *** Joyhawk2121 has quit [Bye] [21:04] <ProngsPatronus> ((((hugs to all))) [21:04] <ProngsPatronus> good night! This post has been edited by fawkes28: Jul 11 2007, 08:37 PM -------------------- |
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