Wize Wednesday in The Corner Booth

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*** Topic is: Wize Wednesday Chat - Snape's Life Dept. Is it a plot device, or is there more to it?
*** Topic set by DorisTLC [Sun Apr 9 13:10:46 2006]
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<DorisTLC> Hi Stewie!
<stewiegryf> hey
<stewiegryf> i just realized that. i'm out is california, though, so i'm not really used to using EST
<stewiegryf> and math is just too hard right now
<DorisTLC> I'm in Texas - I'm just getting used to it!
<DorisTLC> haha - I hate math!
<DorisTLC> I'm good at English and History - math is poo!
<stewiegryf> i actually enjoyed math in high school, but have yet to take a math class in college
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<stewiegryf> Which is a little weird seeing as I'm a science major
<DorisTLC> I was an English major - very litle math
<stewiegryf> Hi Equivocal!
<DorisTLC> I took a graduate course in statistics - and in astrology! That was hard!
<DorisTLC> Hi Equivocal - we're just starting
<stewiegryf> eek, I'd imagine.
<DorisTLC> What are you majoring in Stewie?
<stewiegryf> Well, technically I don't have a real major. I'm in a six Pharmacy program in which I don't really recieve a BS, just a Doctor of Pharmacy Degree
<stewiegryf> It combines three years of undergrad and three years of pharmacy school
<DorisTLC> Ooo - I have a neighbor who is a pharmacist. That is a hard program! She was always telling me about school - loads of math!
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<stewiegryf> Yeah, but the thing is I took a lot of AP Math in High School, so I can skip out on the college classes. But yeah, there is a lot of math in the profession.
<DorisTLC> That is always nice
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<DorisTLC> We'll start in a few minutes - most people get in here right after we start!
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<DorisTLC> Hi Montims
<stewiegryf> I'll have to leave in a few minutes though. I'm starting a bowling league tonight!
<DorisTLC> Ooo - I love to bowl! I'm horrible - but I love it
<montims> hmmm - I was going to sneak in quietly and just blend, but everybody stopped talking... Oh hi Doris! *waves*
<DorisTLC> HAHA - you can't sneak in here! LOL
<montims> So I have no idea re the topic - I was hoping to reply to other people's comments - any hints you can give???
<DorisTLC> Yeah - when there are more people here I'll start asking you guys questions - then it just moves
<montims> Ah
<montims> I'll just sit quietly in the corner then...
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<DorisTLC> Hi LJ!
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<LJ> Hi
<Narya> Hi there ..
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<stewiegryf> Now more people are starting to join. You can blend more easily montims! ;)
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<montims> Yay!!! Had you guessed I'm a little nervous with strangers?
<LJ> I'll start giving the link out smile
<tbunny> Hi!
<stewiegryf> Don't worry. We're all nice and mature here.
<Narya> No strangers in the Lounge - we're all friends here!!
<stewiegryf> most of the time
<tbunny> nice and mature? well I suppose if you ignore what goes on in the PC threads...
<DorisTLC> We're one happy family!
<tbunny>
<stewiegryf> that's why i said most of the time tbunny
<stewiegryf> trust me, i know all about those PotterCast threads
<DorisTLC> I've read them all! That is a busy place!
<Narya> I need to download the latest one and listen to it ... haven't caught up with it yet
<stewiegryf> me, who's designing the "Melissa and the Anelli's" myspace page
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<MonieLou> 'ello!
<Narya> Hi there!
<MonieLou> Hey Jules
<MonieLou> How's it been lately?
<Narya> Hiya Monica
<tbunny> hahahah are you? I'm so behind on PC threads and PC. I have no idea what's happening in that "little" corner right now...
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<Narya> Busy, busy ... how are you?
<tbunny> hey mich!
<MonieLou> Pretty good. Tons of exams at school at the mo'
<cairadawn> Hey everyone
<Narya> Best of luck with those!!
<stewiegryf> hehe..."little". good one tbunny
<Narya> Hi!
<MonieLou> Thanks! I hope I do good. Hi, Cairadawn
<michpotter> hey tams
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<cairadawn> Hi tams
<magicmeg8> hi smile
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<gingin77> sweet
<MonieLou> When do we start talking about the topic??
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<MonieLou> Hey gingin
<DorisTLC> We're going to start pretty quick!
<DorisTLC> I had to get a drink
<FlamingHorcri> I LOVE when it tells me I'm invalid
<MonieLou> Goodie
<MonieLou> In the meanwhile... posting!
<LJ> haha, most of the people that just joined are one's that I sent the link to
<LJ> I'm an awesome plugger
<gingin77> yeah LJ you rock
<Narya> I should go and get a drink as well ... brb
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<DorisTLC> Good Job! We'll make you leaky's Press rep!
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<MonieLou> QUESTION: How many people can this chat hold?
<LJ> I'm gonna finish eating, brb
<DorisTLC> It can hold quite a few - last time I asked PHPNick had it set high
<magicmeg8> k laurie
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*** mode/#lounge [+o mlwl] by Snuffles
<MonieLou> Hey EYE-la
<aixla> Hey guys. I can only stay for a few ... got class.
<DorisTLC> We'll get started on the topic in 5 minutes if you guys want to chat
<gingin77> cool
<gingin77> yes i got my color
<michpotter> I'm in class right now, naughty me
<aixla> Of course I miss the important part ...
<MonieLou> Did I get the pronounciation right, Aixla?
<DorisTLC> This give you all a chance to just say hello!
<aixla> *LOL* Unfortunately my class only has 3 people in it, so I won't get away with posting there!
<mlwl> hello! smile
* mlwl waves
<stewiegryf> good job mich!
<MonieLou> Hey there!
<mlwl> lol
<Narya> *waves back*
<DorisTLC> Tape the class! We're more fun!
* MonieLou testing
<aixla> Yes you did, Monie. Thanks
<MonieLou> Def.
<michpotter> lol i'm trying to pay attention to both this and my class
<tbunny> mich! naughty naughty.... won't your teacher notice?
<MonieLou> Hope not!
<stewiegryf> what class are we interrupting?
<michpotter> no, i'm on the computers when she can't see my screen
<aixla> Like being in class with Professor Binns .
<tbunny> you in social studies? send lily in here, i'm too lazy to PM her
<michpotter> my multi media class
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<aixla> Hola
<tbunny> oh right. cool
<elizabeth18> I have a keyboarding class that is the most boring class in the entire world.
<michpotter> i sent lils an email saying to get in here
<mlwl> sounds like it!
<gingin77> hahahahahaha....... chatting during class
<magicmeg8> keyboarding would be so cool smile
<aixla> KeyBOREding
<magicmeg8> lol
<mlwl> keyboarding as in typing?
<mlwl> or piano?
<elizabeth18> yep
<michpotter> i know
<aixla> I have a graduate level practicum ...
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<elizabeth18> typing
<elizabeth18> it's painful
<elizabeth18> the class, not the typing itself
<gingin77> well... i just got out of my last final a little while ago....
<mlwl> sad
<gingin77> i think i failed it
<aixla> Especially if you spend alot of time on the boards and in chats. You learn to type real fast ...
<magicmeg8> lol ah i see
<aixla> Uh oh
<michpotter> yeah
<FlamingHorcri> Failing is the new passing.
<elizabeth18> i had my first AP test today... AP Calc
<stewiegryf> i'll be feelig your pain in about a week gingin
<gingin77> awww
<NickTLC> So, what do you guys think of the topic? SNAPE'S LIFE DEBT
<gingin77> stewie....
<aixla> Sometimes we're harder on ourselves than we need to be. Think Hermione and her OWLS
<stewiegryf> oo, AP calc is a killer
<gingin77> um....
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* MonieLou gazes around intimidated
<michpotter> lily
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<FlamingHorcri> I think that it's paid
<accio_lily> Halloooooe!
<michpotter> welcome
<FlamingHorcri> and done
<Skillet9886> hi all
<mlwl> hi lily!
<FlamingHorcri> but I think Snape lived with it so long that he's screwed up
<mlwl> room 13 misses you!
<Narya> I don't think that it's paid ... not in an ethical sense ...
<gingin77> i dont agree flaming
<mlwl> come back! hehe
<accio_lily> aww! yay!
<stewiegryf> don't be intimidated, just jump right in!
<DorisTLC> Hey guys! We'll get started inone minute! Let's finish with our hellos
<magicmeg8> i definitely think the life-debt is more than a plot device
<gingin77> hey nick asked us
<magicmeg8> ok
<FlamingHorcri> Hey Nick started it ;)
<FlamingHorcri> *points at nick*
<aixla> Yeah Nick, causing trouble
<magicmeg8> lol
<accio_lily> Sorry... I'll hget back on-topic
<Narya> Poor Nick!!
<FlamingHorcri> blame the boy!
<elizabeth18> hello, howdy, hola, bonjour to everyone (I don't hello in any other languages, sorry)
<aixla> Get back on the Off topic topic
<elizabeth18> *don't know hello
<gingin77> i like the howdy
<Mokey> hello everybody
<elizabeth18> howdy it is
<Narya> Hi Mokey
<michpotter> brb guys, paying attention to class for a sec
<gingin77> but you have to add a ya'll to it
<FlamingHorcri> heheh how about "sup yo!"
<stewiegryf> aloha
<FlamingHorcri> haha
<gingin77> howdy ya'll
<mlwl> life debt...... Personally, I'll jump right in & say I think snape is going to die
<aixla> Or WAZZUP?
<elizabeth18> wazzup being my personal pet peeve
<montims> hasn't he saved Harry's life a few times already? And he didn't kill him - hasn't he paid?
* mlwl hides from the snapeophiles
<tbunny> wait... are we on or off topic right now?
<accio_lily> I'm in favour of Snape dying as well, although I think he is 'good'
<mlwl> welllllll
<gingin77> Ahh... but thats where the discussion comes in...
<elizabeth18> depends, tbunny
<aixla> off still
<FlamingHorcri> for all of the times Snape COULD have killed him and didn't
<accio_lily> TAM! (Sorry, last hello, I promise)
<Skillet9886> do you think he's directly saved Harry's life though?
<FlamingHorcri> that's great
<gingin77> in some of our eyes Snape hasnt saved harry
<elizabeth18> on whether you go with Nick or Doris
<mlwl> But is he supposed to?
<gingin77> Harry*
<aixla> Wow, there are alot of people here ...
<cairadawn> I think there alittle of both on topic and off topic
<mlwl> I mean, most eeeeevil characters have that "he's mine or no one's" thing
<Skillet9886> he didn't owe a life debt to Harry, did he? It was to James..
<mlwl> so it's possible snape wasn't allowed
<memyslfnI> I think he will die..
<tbunny> okay. Lily!! >:D<
<aixla> We're on the topic of being off topic
<magicmeg8> lol
<accio_lily> haha
<gingin77> Like the time in book one... It was actualy Hermione who saved Harry, cause she knocked Quirrell over
<Narya> I don't, M ... I think he'll survive to the end
<Skillet9886> Snape was trying to save him though, gingin
<MonieLou> Has it started?
<Mokey> is it a magical rule that life debt passes to next generation or is that just how SNape interprets it
<gingin77> yeah but he technicaly didnt succeed... it was all Hermione
<FlamingHorcri> I think that's how Snape made himself feel better
<mlwl> it would make sense
<elizabeth18> I think so, MonieLou
<MonieLou> I think he wanted to just pay James back
<MonieLou> Thats it
<accio_lily> But he tried... does trying count?
<memyslfnI> oooh! Life Debt..is that the topic?
<MonieLou> He felt he had to
<Skillet9886> I think Snape just didn't want to be in a Potter's debt and decided to pay it back through Harry
<DorisTLC> *Hem Hem* (My teacher voice!) Ok guys - let's talk about SNAPE - and his life dept - just general ideas at first, then Nick and I will add in thoughts and questions - you guys feel free to do the same!
<mlwl> nope trying doesn't count
<gingin77> < doesnt think trying counts
<accio_lily> Agreed, Skillet
<mlwl> "Sorry I ALMOST saved your life there!"
<FlamingHorcri> Okay
<aixla> OK, I've got to go or I'm going to be late. Sorry. My $.02 - Snape is a bad, bad, bad man. That said, I think that he and DD did have something planned. His life will prove crucial in book 7. That's all. Miss you all!
<gingin77> hahahah mlwl
<magicmeg8> lol bye smile
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<accio_lily> bye!
<FlamingHorcri> the fact that it's Snape's fault that Voldemort knew about the prophecy in the first place is more of a debt than he can ever pay back
<MonieLou> Bye Aixla
<memyslfnI> life debt or life dept?
<Narya> I don't think that Snape has fully paid that debt.
<FlamingHorcri> I think that's part of Snape's issue with Harry
<montims> surely he W
<elizabeth18> I think that Snape does not owe Harry a life debt
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<gingin77> i think snape is good...but i dont believe that he has repayed the debt
<elizabeth18> he owed James one
<mlwl> why eliabeth?
<elizabeth18> but now James is dead, so...
<Narya> He owes Harry ....
<michpotter> but it would get passed down
<michpotter> onto harry
<FlamingHorcri> why?
<MonieLou> The life debt can;t be passed to Harry since Harry wasn't the one that he owed it to in the first place
<mlwl> if you didn't succeed, wouldn't it make some sense for it to transfer
<accio_lily> I am still unsure if you can pay life debts through generations, or by passing them through blood (cough)
<elizabeth18> would it get passed down?
<stewiegryf> but he already saved Harry's life in SS
<elizabeth18> why?
<memyslfnI> I see..I agree with Narya..He still owes Harry
<Skillet9886> I don't think Snape owed a life debt for betraying Harry with the prophecy, only for the whomping willow incident with james
<elizabeth18> why would it get passed down?
<DorisTLC> Does it get passed does? Do we say that elsewhere?
<mlwl> when did he?
<MonieLou> Why would something like that be passed down?
<montims> OULD have saved Harry a few times (quidditch matches, screaming shack...) but didn't have to. And he could have killed him at the end...
<gingin77> why cant life debts be passed on
<Mokey> so how powerful is a life debt...if nothing happened to Snape because he didn't repay it to James?
<gingin77> it seems that it has to
<elizabeth18> that's true, Mokey
<mlwl> exactly, mokey!
<magicmeg8> it seems like the only reason snape hasn't killed harry is this life-debt thing ... that's what makes him "good"
<accio_lily> Life debt Pettigrew/Voldemort to Harry (nin reference to blood)
<MonieLou> James died too young, remember that
<Skillet9886> I think there's a lot about the nature of life-debts that we don't know
<elizabeth18> But then there really is no point of a life debt if it just gets passed down because it could be passed down infinately
<gingin77> exactly skillet
<elizabeth18> so nothing would ever happen to the person that owed it
<accio_lily> Next FAQ on JKR.com... Please explain life debts
<NickTLC> Good point Elizabeth
<Skillet9886> I mean, you incur a life-debt when your life is spared by someone else?
<mlwl> LOL, seriously lily!
<magicmeg8> that's true, elizabeth -- there'd be quite a few floating around
<FlamingHorcri> maybe it makes your hair greasy and revolting
<accio_lily> I think so, thus Pettigrew and Harry
<FlamingHorcri> sorry.
<mlwl> HAHAHA horcri
<Mokey> lol Flaming
<FlamingHorcri> Kel
<DorisTLC> !topic Snape's Life Debt - Wize Wednesday Chat topic!
*** Snuffles changed the topic to: Snape's Life Debt - Wize Wednesday Chat topic! (DorisTLC)
<MonieLou> Hehe! Funny
<Skillet9886> but you don't have a life-debt simply for someone saving your life?
<FlamingHorcri> please before I die from being called Flaming lol
<Skillet9886> because Ginny doesn't owe Harry
<gingin77> Maybe its not that the actual life debt passed on to Harry, but its Snape that believes it did
<MonieLou> No, I think it has to run a bit deeper
<Narya> I don't think Snape can be truly free of that life debt so long as he has things on his conscience
<montims> Oh - if he owed James a life debt then James was killed, does that nullify the life debt or does Snape have to punish himself in some way for having failed?
<MonieLou> But then theres the Pettigre debt
<DorisTLC> Then why do you have a life dept? What else needs to be there?
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<elizabeth18> I don't think that anyone who accidentally causes the death of someone else owes that person a life debt
<MonieLou> But then again, Peter had a major connection with Harry
<accio_lily> Does Ginny owe Harry? How is that different from James/Snape?
<Skillet9886> I think Snape was just trying to have all his bases covered by passing on the life-debt to Harry
<gingin77> Wasnt it said that Ginny doenst owe Harry?
<Narya> A moral obligation of some sort. Snape's heart is a closed book
<michpotter> yeah
<MonieLou> Doris, I think there has to be a deeper connection between the two people
<elizabeth18> A moral obligation?
<MonieLou> Like some sort of revenge
<memyslfnI> does anyone wonder if it could be psychological as well? Snape may feel that he has done plenty for Harry already..so he may believe the debt is paid
<FlamingHorcri> Is the term life debt used in the books?
<accio_lily> I'm not sure... This is such a multi-faceted topic
<elizabeth18> Yes, FH
<mlwl> I was just typing the same thing, MMI!
<MonieLou> In both cases of life debts that we've seen, they have been for some sort of revenge
<elizabeth18> in book 3
<NickTLC> Revenge, or just an emotional connection or any sort?
<DorisTLC> I understand that Monilou - I see that too!
<mlwl> (kristin)
<FlamingHorcri> then how do you enforce it?
<accio_lily> Dumbledore says it to Harry, I think, Kel
<Narya> Snape may believe it's paid, but - to me anyway - it's not that simple
<FlamingHorcri> how do you know?
<stewiegryf> What do we really know about life debts? It seems as though we know less about these than we do Fidelius Charms and there are just too many unanswered questions
<MonieLou> I'm thinking Reveger, Nick.
<mlwl> except I was thinking it in the opposite direction....
<magicmeg8> i do wonder at the magical guidelines for a life debt
<FlamingHorcri> doesn't the whole fricken wizarding world owe Harry?
<mlwl> what if the debt is paid
<MonieLou> Its a very powerful thing
<accio_lily> ahhahaha
<memyslfnI> quote from book: "Pettigrew owes his life to you. You have sent Voldemort a deputy who is in your debt...When one wizard saves another wizard's life, it creates a certain bond between them... and I'm much mistaken if Voldemort wants his servant in the debt of Harry Potter."
<Skillet9886> I don't think Snape owes Harry a life-debt...only Pettigrew
<gingin77> we know basicly nothing about life debts
<MonieLou> *Revenge
<mlwl> but Snape thinks it isn't yet
<DorisTLC> Could there be a magical dept - between Wizards? Could a life dept work that way?
<elizabeth18> I think that a life debt has to be more deliberate than what happened to the Potters because of Snape.
<magicmeg8> but "a certain bond" doesn't necessarily mean a magical one.
<FlamingHorcri> does motive matter?
<MonieLou> I think so, Horcri
<elizabeth18> that's true
<michpotter> exactly liz
<Mokey> didn't Jo say there was a reason she couldn't tell us more?
<FlamingHorcri> James saved Snape out of guilt
<elizabeth18> it could be just a guilty conscience thing, I suppose
<accio_lily> Agreed, Elizabeth - Otherwise everyone would owe someone in some obscure way
<Skillet9886> does a life-debt work in a similar way to an unbreakable vow? what happens if you just don't repay it?
<mlwl> I agree, eliabeth, BUT I bet Snape felt a bit guilty nonetheless
<mlwl> if you think there is ANY good in him
<FlamingHorcri> Harry saved Pettigrew because he thought it was the right thing to do
<Mokey> so magicmeg do you just think it is a matter of ethics?
<montims> darn it - I've got to go - I'll be back later (do these chats get saved anywhere so I can catch up? bbfn...
<Skillet9886> is a wizard magically obligated to save someone to whom they are in debt if the situation arises?
<FlamingHorcri> and didn't want Sirius to be a murderer
<MonieLou> We don't know that he saved him out of guilt. All we know is that he saved him at the last minute
<Narya> I don't think he did; James saved Snape because it was the right thing to do
<magicmeg8> i'm just not sure mokey
<magicmeg8> i feel like it's not clear enough
<Mokey> me neither
<MonieLou> Hear, hear, Jules!
<magicmeg8> lol
<elizabeth18> I think that if it's a magical bond Snape doesn't owe a life debt at all, but I could see it being a guilty conscience thing
<accio_lily> Because Harry's a good person - that's why he saved Pettigrew
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<Narya> Sirius wouldn't have murdered Snape ...
<mlwl> not intentionally
<mlwl> BUT
<Narya> and Snape knew that
<mlwl> that desn't mean it couldn't happen
<stewiegryf> could life debts work on the conscience of a person? kind of tormenting them in their dreams and subconscious. is that what makes the person repay them? to ease their minds?
<mlwl> werewolves are a different situation
<Narya> Doesn't, no - but Sirius wouldn't have done that
<gingin77> No i really think snape thought sirius did it intentionaly
<mlwl> I think that's part of it
<magicmeg8> are you sure that snape knew sirius wouldn't allow him to be hurt
<NickTLC> That very well could be, stewiegryf
<Mokey> that's a good point stewie
<mlwl> but may be diff in magic world, stewiegryff
<Skillet9886> I think Sirius was a prankster...I really don't think he thought the consequences fully out on that one
<Narya> He probably did at the time - but in his heart of hearts, he knows different
<gingin77> we know Sirius only wanted to freak him out.... but Snape thought he had planned this
<FlamingHorcri> Sending someone to get murdered by a werewolf isn't a prank
<DorisTLC> In this quote on The Lexicon http://www.hp-lexicon.org/magic/old-magic.html they call life-debts as The old magic, also referred to as ancient magic, is magic which is not cast by wizards with wands. It is part of the "magical-ness" of the universe. There are a number of examples:
<elizabeth18> I do think Sirius planned it
<Narya> Sirisu had his heart in the right place
<elizabeth18> I I don't think he thought about the consequences very much
<gingin77> I think it was a prank.. just not a very well thought out one
<Narya> there was always animosity between those two
<mlwl> it doesn't matter- the result is the same!
<elizabeth18> don't know if I agree with you on that, Narya
<gingin77> Sirius just said it in the heat of the moment i think
<Narya> that would never have changed
<mlwl> *oops, didn't MEAN to kill you!*
<magicmeg8> so a life debt can be compared to harry's protection from harry then.
<magicmeg8> from lily, i mean
<Narya> Sirius was just too impulsive
<FlamingHorcri> I'm so sorry I sent you to be mauled by a werewolf
<accio_lily> I don't think Sirius had worked out the conseqenses of his actions
<FlamingHorcri> my bad
<DorisTLC> exactly meg
<magicmeg8> woot.
<NickTLC> Meg--they're related, yes
<magicmeg8> smile
<mlwl> drunk driving still isn't ok
<mlwl> even if you don't think you'll kill anyone!
<FlamingHorcri> But James knew it could kill him
<Skillet9886> Sirius....didn't think everything all the way through
<Narya> Snape was snooping around the school after them
<magicmeg8> i agree skillet
<Narya> He isn't blameless
<Skillet9886> James seems to have been more rational
<FlamingHorcri> and I'm SURE that Sirius told James what he was going to do
<Narya> And he knows it
<elizabeth18> I agree
<DorisTLC> If the dept transfered to HArry, was it repaid when snape kept Lupin away from the trio?
<FlamingHorcri> so in NOT saving him, he'd be responsible
<mlwl> Sirius knew consequences!
<mlwl> he knew Lupin was a werewolf!
<magicmeg8> but murder due to carelessness isn't that much better than intentional murder
<mlwl> maybe he didn't think it through
<elizabeth18> I think that's very possible, Doris
<mlwl> but it is STILL cruel!
<Narya> Sirius knew - and so did Snape
<Skillet9886> I'm not saying he didn't know what would happen
<FlamingHorcri> Um, wasn't that only in the movie?
<FlamingHorcri> I need to read more
<gingin77> Yeah but Sirius really didnt want Snape killed, he just wanted to scare Snape
<michpotter> i don't think he was thinking clearly that night, his best friend had just been murdered
<accio_lily> I don't know if it is - Snape was saving himself jsut as much
<Skillet9886> I'm just saying that he wouldn't have really thought through the effect that it would kill Snape
<elizabeth18> You could be right, FH
<NickTLC> Nah, it was in the books, just to a lesser extent, Kel
<magicmeg8> ok, i get you skillet smile
<Narya> It's more subtle in the books
<stewiegryf> Does it take an act of equal deliberance to repay a life debt as the one that created it?
<mlwl> good question!
<FlamingHorcri> I would think so
<elizabeth18> I think so, yes
<Narya> But Snape is nobody's fool, and he's certainly not put-upon
<accio_lily> I think so, StwieGryf
<DorisTLC> Good question Stewie! That's an essay in itself!
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<accio_lily> *stewie
<gingin77> that is a great question stewie... and i beielve yes
<FlamingHorcri> <--not writing an essay lol
<magicmeg8> lol
<michpotter> i think yes
<accio_lily> haha
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<gingin77> hahahah FH
<Narya> I think the two acts have to be equal, stewie
<elizabeth18> I don't see why it wouldn't be just as deliberate - equal and opposite reaction sort of thing
<MonieLou> But what are the chances of repaying the act, then?
<Narya> The heart and conscience have to be engaged
<FlamingHorcri> I really think that for a person to pay back something like that it needs to be in the same currency....the same reasoning
<magicmeg8> it would make sense if they were equal
<Pottersgrl> hey everyone
<MonieLou> I mean, only so many people are put in a life/death situation more than once in tehur life
<mlwl> I would tend to agree
<FlamingHorcri> if I lend someone 100 dollars......if they pay me back in 100 pesos.....i'm not going to feel paid back
<michpotter> yeah it would meg
<accio_lily> Yes, I agree kel
<stewiegryf> Then I don't think that Snape has ever fully repaid James' debt. Has he ever deliberately gone out of his way to save Harry?
<Pottersgrl> i agree
<magicmeg8> true kel
<MonieLou> No, he hasn
<gingin77> yeah im feelign you FH... the reasoning behind the actions has to be the same
<Pottersgrl> i hate snape
<Narya> That's the great unanswered question, stewie
<Skillet9886> what about Pettigrew trying to convince Voldemort to use someone besides Harry for the rebirthing in book 4? Was that an attempt to repay the life-debt?
<FlamingHorcri> But why is it Snapes' debt to Harry?
<MonieLou> He's just come short all the time
<michpotter> saved harry yes, but gone out of his way to do it, no
<elizabeth18> no, I don't think so, skillet
<elizabeth18> that was all talk and no action
<magicmeg8> from what we know so far, i don't think snape's gone out of his way
<DorisTLC> If it needs to be the same curency - then would Snape saving the kids be equal to James' act?
<stewiegryf> good question kel
<magicmeg8> the only thing he's done is not kill him, just make him miserable
<accio_lily> I think Pettigrew was just trying to make it easier for himself
<Pottersgrl> DD would 've saved harry anyways
<Narya> No, I don't think so, Doris - I think it has to be Harry
<mlwl> that is possible, doris... but I think Snape will save Harry again
<DorisTLC> Good point Narya
<Narya> Peter is trying to save his own skin, as always
<mlwl> regardless of if he wants to
<memyslfnI> Peters fear of LV outweighs his desire to repay the debt...It is not the same iMO
<Narya> Yes, M
<Narya> Peter is a coward
<DorisTLC> If he wants too - do we think James wanted to save Snape?
<Narya> Yes
<magicmeg8> i agree with that memyslfni
<Skillet9886> did James really go that far out of his way to save Snape, though? I think James just telling Snape not to go after Lupin is just about equal to Snape saving Harry on the broomstick
<FlamingHorcri> I think he saved Snape to save Sirius' butt
<memyslfnI> yes, this is why DD made him Head boy..he grew up alot and stood up to his friends
<Narya> I don't - he would have saved Snape anyway - that is the man he was
<Skillet9886> even though it was Hermione who knocked over Quirrel, he would have been thrown long before then if Snape wasn't saying the countercurse
<accio_lily> A small part of Peter mightn't have wanted to hurt Harry - but he ddiin't want to use him because of his own reasons, not simply because he wanted to protect Harry
<mlwl> that is possible as well... James wasn't a particularly nice youg man
<gingin77> thats the thing.... i think life debts are created in the fact where you wouldnt usualy save this person.. it has to be a truely selfless act..
<NickTLC> Do the motives affect the outcome, then?
<NickTLC> It seems like a no
<Pottersgrl> james did it cause he was agood person and maybe regretted when he teased snape
<magicmeg8> i don't think james liked snape, but i don't think he was ready to accept being party to a possible murder
<Narya> Yes, I think they do
<michpotter> i agree FH, he saved snape, but he had the motive of saving sirius
<stewiegryf> I think that James didn't want any harm to come to Snape because of Sirius' joke. I doubt James cared if Snape lived or died, as long as he or his friends had nothing to do with it
<gingin77> James hated Snape... and Harry hated Pettegrew....
<Narya> I think James did care
<michpotter> but harry saved pettigrew
<accio_lily> I think motives do care
<accio_lily> *metter
<Narya> He might have been reckless, but he did care
<elizabeth18> Except Harry had a real concrete reason to hate pettigrew...
<DorisTLC> I think the motives should effect the outcome. If it's selfless - that should be more of a sacrifice.
<accio_lily> *Matter...
<Narya> And Snape has his own very reckless streak
<NickTLC> At the very moment, though, that the life debt was incurred, were Harry or James feeling hatred toward Snape or Pettigrew?
<elizabeth18> I don't know if motives matter
<elizabeth18> Is magic that sensitive?
<Narya> Proof of that in OotP
<NickTLC> Or were they feeling another emotion?
<gingin77> normaly they wouldnt give a damn but they wouldnt want them to die... well Harry wants pettigrew dead... but he didnt want moony and sirius to become mkillers
<memyslfnI> I agree Narya he did not want Snape to die..
<magicmeg8> i think the james-snape connection is paralleled moreso in the harry-malfoy connection
<FlamingHorcri> well see
<FlamingHorcri> now snape saved Malfoy at the end of HBP
<accio_lily> And Harry still saved Peter, even though he was perfectly within his rights/morals to watch him die and not be judged.
<memyslfnI> the joke went too far and he knew it
<Narya> I think it's deeper than that
<Skillet9886> I think James cared more than Sirius, but that's not saying much
<FlamingHorcri> and since we're transferring debts....
<FlamingHorcri> maybe malfoy has to save Harry now
<FlamingHorcri> and it will all be even
<DorisTLC> I wonder if Lilly played a part in the saving of Snape - I have always wondered that
<MonieLou> Isn't a joke suppose to be funny?
<magicmeg8> maybe kel
<MonieLou> What Sirius did was NOT funny, IMO.
<Narya> I have wondered that too
<FlamingHorcri> like paying your visa with your mastercard
<accio_lily> Wasn't Harry going to kill Sirius before he knew he was innocent? (Or am I confusing movie/book?)
<elizabeth18> What do you mean, Doris?
<Narya> No, it wasn't funny - but that was Sirius at the time
<magicmeg8> he wanted to lily
<gingin77> i dont think lily was 'involved' but i think she found out somehow
<magicmeg8> i don't know if he could have though
<Skillet9886> I really don't think James did anything all that extraordinary...even if you don't like someone, most people wouldn't stand aside and let them be attacked by a werewolf if they knew what was coming
<MonieLou> I don't think that Lily knew about the 'joke'.
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<Narya> James risked his life to save Snape
<memyslfnI> oooh, doof question Doris..she could have helped James "see the light"
<stewiegryf> exactly skillet
<DorisTLC> If lily - asked James, or if she persuaded James to help SNAPE- that might explain her not having to die
<memyslfnI> noy doof..good haha!
<MonieLou> It was mainly sirius who set it up
<elizabeth18> Oh, I see what you mean
<mlwl> good point Doris!
<elizabeth18> I don't think she knew
<memyslfnI> my typing under pressure is terrible!
<gingin77> Doris thats a good theory... but just dont see it happening
<elizabeth18> If James liked Lily and knew she didn't want Snape hurt, then James wouldn't tell her
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<Narya> Lily may have sensed something - but I don't think she knew all the details
<MonieLou> I dont think that James fully knew about it til it was almost commenced
<magicmeg8> why not camie?
<elizabeth18> He might tell her that he saved him, though
<Mokey> I always figured James saving Snape was a split second thing, but that's a good point Doris
<michpotter> what year were they in when james saved snape?
<Narya> Sixth
<elizabeth18> 6th, I think?
<accio_lily> Seventh? Mich?
<FlamingHorcri> Maybe Lily knew - and made James save him
<MonieLou> I thought it was fifth
<FlamingHorcri> so it'd be Snape's debt to Lily - which he'd be more likely to repay
<accio_lily> It mightv'e been 6th
<Skillet9886> do we know what year this happened in? Like what year James and Snape were in when he saved him?
<elizabeth18> Nah, if Lily knew she wouldn't have gone through James
<DorisTLC> I hope we learn all these little details as some point!
<elizabeth18> She would have gone to Snape herself
<Narya> Sixth, I'm pretty sure
<gingin77> I just think that Sirius went to tell James.... hehe guess what i did.... sort of thing
<magicmeg8> ahh, ok
<FlamingHorcri> well she would have yelled at Sirius for it
<MonieLou> Does it say somewhere what year is was?
<MonieLou> Like in the first book, or something?
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<michpotter> because it is plausable that lily and james were dating then, and snape and lily had a friendship of sorts, so lily persuaded james to save snape
<mlwl> I don't remember it saying
<Narya> Can't remember where
<elizabeth18> I think I remember Sirius saying something like
<Skillet9886> haha, ok, little bit of a tape delay on my typing here, sorry
<accio_lily> I htink it does, somewhere
<elizabeth18> "A lot of people are idiots at the age of..."
<elizabeth18> But I don't remember what age
<marielle> Hi everybody
<elizabeth18> I think he said 16
<Narya> Check in GoF, MonieLou
<MonieLou> I thought it was 15.
<Skillet9886> didn't Lily and James only start dating in the 7th year though? when they were Head Boy/Girl?
<magicmeg8> i think that was lupin .. in ootp
<mlwl> hello!
<michpotter> it was 15
<Narya> I think it's there
<FlamingHorcri> y'know - I dislike a lot of people
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<MonieLou> GoF? I was thinking OotP.
<memyslfnI> according to Lexicon it is 6th year
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<FlamingHorcri> but I wouldn't want them to get mauled by a werewolf
<stewiegryf> well, i've got to go now.
<Narya> Might be ...
<michpotter> it was "a lot of people are idots at the age of 15"
<accio_lily> I just don't think james would have let Snape die. or saved him only because Lily asked him to
<Skillet9886> no, they were saying that in OotP in reference to Snape's Worst Memory, not the life-debt
<stewiegryf> bye all!
<magicmeg8> bye stewie smile
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<Narya> bye stewie
<Mokey> bye stewie
<mlwl> bye stewie
<michpotter> see ya stewie
<FlamingHorcri> well a combination of Lily's pressure and the fact that it was REALLY saving Sirius from murder implications
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<FlamingHorcri> i think he would do it then
<Narya> Sirius would not have murdered Snape, no matter the provocation
<elizabeth18> I still think that if Lily knew about the joke she would go tell Snape herself
<Narya> He wasn't a murderer - just my two Knuts
<mlwl> I agree
<DorisTLC> One thing I've always wondered is how much this little incident had to do with Snape becomeing a death eater?
<elizabeth18> Sirius wouldn't have murdered Snape in cold blood
<mlwl> he wasn't MURDERING
<FlamingHorcri> murdering someone and sending someone to get murdered is the same thing in my head
<elizabeth18> but...
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<mlwl> it was laisses faire
<NYBookworm> I think the the life debt is occurred when someone saves an enemy- kind of like in the Bible where Jesus says anyone can help a friend but to help an enemy
<Skillet9886> well, Lily didn't seem too pleased with Snape either, judging by what Harry saw in the pensieve
<NickTLC> Right, it was a prank
<FlamingHorcri> Peter Pettigrew didn't kill the potters
<mlwl> but it would have been harder to fix later
<Narya> He didn't send him either ...
<FlamingHorcri> he just told LV where they were
<NickTLC> A tasteless prank, but a prank nonetheless
<Skillet9886> so she might have tried to convince James/Sirius to call off the joke before warning Snape
<Narya> It was a prank - and a reckless one at that
<Narya> But that was Sirius at the time
<Narya> He grew out of it
<FlamingHorcri> psh "at the time"
<NickTLC> Mm-hm
<elizabeth18> sort of
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<mlwl> he did????
<FlamingHorcri> no he didn't
<mlwl> lol
<MonieLou> One thing I've always wondered is how much this little incident had to do with Snape becomeing a death eater? ----------I don't think that allone had an effect, but I'm sure it added to it. The no acceptance, part.
<elizabeth18> I don't know that he really grew out of it..
<xXxMagicalMandixXx> They all grew out of it.
<Narya> He grew out of it - he admitted it in OotP
<mlwl> I agree, ML
<FlamingHorcri> yeah - and going to the train station as a dog....
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<FlamingHorcri> not reckless
<elizabeth18> Sure, but then look at his actions
<Evreka> Grew out of what?
<accio_lily> Kel
<Narya> I don't think Snape was influenced in that way to become a DE
<mlwl> I don't think Sirius did... he never seemed to "grow up" in book 5
<Skillet9886> reckless, but not life-threatening
<xXxMagicalMandixXx> Not Snape though. I don't ever think Snape gave it up. (immatureness, holding onto childhood)
<FlamingHorcri> not life- threatening?
<elizabeth18> I think that Snape was always a loner and that this was just one more incident of him being an outsider
<FlamingHorcri> maybe his own life
<gingin77> Going to the train station was extreemly reckless... but just think about it... he was locked in a house that he hated for how many months
<magicmeg8> but sirius was pure-blood, and though james wasn't (or was he ... i forget), why would snape be more mad at james than siuus
<Narya> Snape's heart has always been bitter and locked in the past
<NickTLC> Right, I agree Elizabeth
<accio_lily> Reckless, to himself and his safety. In GoF he was very protective of Harry
<michpotter> i still think that sirius has a little reckless streek, but lupin seems to have lost his
<FlamingHorcri> protective in a stupid way sometimes....
<xXxMagicalMandixXx> James was pureblood
<Skillet9886> James was pureblood
<gingin77> trust me... if i was locked up for that long.. i would find any way to get out even though it could be bad forme
<gingin77> for me*
<elizabeth18> yeah, in OotP he went a little hyper
<Evreka> James was a pure blood
<Pottersgrl> bye everyone (good descion)
<FlamingHorcri> Yeah - he could have gone out as a dog any other time
<memyslfnI> here here Narya!...He cannot let go to the humiliation at the hands of the marauders and therefore is furious thet he owed a debt to James
<magicmeg8> ok -- so sirius and james were both pureblood -- why would snape run to the DEs based on his hatred of them
<FlamingHorcri> but going to somewhere that he could be recognized also put harry in danger
<elizabeth18> I don't think he did
<gingin77> but he wanted to say bon voyage to harry
<FlamingHorcri> too bad
<xXxMagicalMandixXx> I don't think he did either.
<FlamingHorcri> it was stupid
<elizabeth18> I think he ran to the DEs because they were the only ones that accepted him
<Skillet9886> I don't think he became a DE just to get back at James and Sirius
<Narya> Snape was always heavily into the Dark Arts at school
<FlamingHorcri> he doesn't seem to understand his own stupidity
<magicmeg8> true
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<Skillet9886> he gained power within the ranks of the DEs...power and respect
<gingin77> heck everyone is guilty of that every once in a while FH
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<FlamingHorcri> Oh and about the DE thing - you go around with who is nice to you- right?
<mlwl> yes, but it wouldn't help anything if you were bullied in school!
<elizabeth18> right, exactly
<NickTLC> So, when Snape incurred this life debt, how pivotal was that in his life's timeline?
<Narya> Becoming a DE is a logical extension of that
<MonieLou> Do you think that Lucius got Snape introduced to teh DEs?
<Evreka> According to Sirius in the cave in GOF, Severus friends ALL became DE
<accio_lily> He became a DE because he loved the dark arts. Think about how he spoke in their first lesson, sixth year
<FlamingHorcri> so if the people on the "good side" are jerks....where are you going to go?
<mlwl> exactly, horcri!
<xXxMagicalMandixXx> I think he just wanted to feel powerful, he wanted to be superior as he thought he was all his school years. He wanted to hurt them like they hurt him.
<elizabeth18> not very, Nick
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<gingin77> I am currently guilty of it.. im suposed to be on crutches.. but do i use them... no ... because my leg doenst hurt and they slow me nown
<NickTLC> Did he change after that much in behaviors or actions?
<gingin77> down*
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<Narya> No, Nick - I don't think so
<FlamingHorcri> he was superior in potions
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<FlamingHorcri> for sure.
<MonieLou> Again I ask, do you think Lucius could have introduced him to the DE ways??
<FlamingHorcri> he invented spells and everything
<elizabeth18> I think that this just sort of solidified his feelings
<elizabeth18> no, monielou
<Narya> Maybe, MonieLou
<Evreka> Possibly, Monie Lou
<elizabeth18> I think he figured it out himself
<Skillet9886> isn't Lucius older than Snape?
<FlamingHorcri> but they looked down on him because he was poor-er than they were
<xXxMagicalMandixXx> Snape wanted revenge.
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<Narya> Yes, he is
<Evreka> But why Lucius?
<FlamingHorcri> Lucius was probably 7th year when Snape was 3rd right?
<Evreka> All his friends were DEs
<Narya> Powerful, influential figure
<michpotter> i think that's right
<magicmeg8> perhaps he made decisions baseed on the shame of being saved by a boy he hated -- or rather was influenced by te incidient
<elizabeth18> late at night, by himself, reading all he could to get ahead
<FlamingHorcri> um - slytherin - kthx
<FlamingHorcri> it's about that easy
<accio_lily> He's still a horrible person, even though he is 'good' ( I believe) No matter what 'side' you are on, he is still a horibble person
<Skillet9886> I thought there were 5 years between Malfoy and Snape
<Narya> About that, yeah
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<Evreka> there's 6 years between them
<MonieLou> How do we know?
<tbunny> alright. I gtg. Have fun talking Snape.
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<elizabeth18> I think Snape would have been self taught
<Evreka> I think
<MonieLou> Did Jo say somewhere?
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<accio_lily> I'm not sure of the number... is it on the movie timeline?
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<Narya> Lucius was born in 1954 or thereabouts
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<Narya> Snape was born in 1960 or thereabouts
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<Evreka> Interviews with Jo said Snape was 35 and Lucius 41 after GOF
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<Skillet9886> yeah, so I doubt they had much interaction at Hogwarts
<xXxMagicalMandixXx> So yeah, six years
<accio_lily> Must dash - Perhaps I shall return. This has been really great!
<magicmeg8> bye lils!
<xXxMagicalMandixXx> Bye lily!
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<Narya> Lucius could have taken young Snape under his wing
<NickTLC> How does this life debt reflect on Snape's portrayal of James as a bully, and on Harry's changed opinion in book 5 of James and Sirius as bullies, and why does Snape still see James as a bully despite this happening?
<gingin77> Yes Snape is a horrible person... but he is still good.. therefore the perfect Antihero
<elizabeth18> I just don't see Snape learning from anyone at all
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<Narya> Snape will always see James as a bully
<elizabeth18> He seems to believe that he is sort of above everyone else
<Narya> and that is bad - he's stuck in the past
<elizabeth18> and so therefore can't learn from them
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<xXxMagicalMandixXx> Narya, I agree! Definetly stuck in the past.
<gingin77> See i think Snape and James bullied each other...but James had friends behind him.. so therefore he won most of ht time
<Narya> Harry sees his father and Sirius in a different light in OotP
<MonieLou> I find that ironic, Narya. I mean, he saw James as a bully, but now he's bullying Harry, James' son.
<Skillet9886> James was a bully...just because he did this one act of morality doesn't change that
<Narya> He realises that they were human
<FlamingHorcri> And the fact that it was 4 or 1 that's fair
<elizabeth18> the bullied often become the bullies, monielou
<Narya> and reckless, and stupid
<FlamingHorcri> or=on
<gingin77> hey i didnt say that it was fair
<gingin77> but that is what happened
<memyslfnI> i don't think that Snape saw James as a "bully" because that would allow Snape to be the "bulee" or weaker..
<xXxMagicalMandixXx> James was so popular that he turned everyone against Snape. Snape never really had a chance.
<Narya> Snape never lost his chance to hex James
<MonieLou> Yes, but to a later generation? Now thats a grudge.
<FlamingHorcri> in retalliation
<marielle> From Lily during Snape worst memory, James was hexing everybody just because he could, seem liked a bully to me.
<Evreka> Let's say Crabbe puts some memory in a Pensieve in a few years. The memory of what happened on the train home end of OOTP
<Narya> I don't think James turned anyone against Snape
<Skillet9886> I really liked that change of Harry's perception in OotP, it's one of my favorite moments...he really grows up there and stops idealizing his father
<Narya> Snape was clearly unpopular in OotP
<gingin77> Actualy i thought it was because Sirius was bored
<elizabeth18> right
<magicmeg8> i know what you mean skillet
<Evreka> That would make DA look like bullies and Crabbe an innocent
<MonieLou> Of course he did, Jules! Look at what he did in the memory!
<xXxMagicalMandixXx> I think everyone thought he was weird, but I think because James was so popular everyone kind of followed.
<MonieLou> All those people laughing at SNape
<NickTLC> Very true, Evreka
<FlamingHorcri> I think that when you're bullied and traumatized by specific people for SEVEN YEARS - and y'know....we don't know if they knew each other before that....
<MonieLou> Making fun of SNape
<Narya> So it's equal to me
<FlamingHorcri> it's going to scar you
<FlamingHorcri> forl ife
<Narya> There is no proof of bullying for seven years
<Evreka> So that one Memory may not tell the whole tale...
<gingin77> Snape hexed the marauders too
<memyslfnI> we saw one snippet in time..it proves that in this case James and Sirius had the upper hand..But I am sure when the tables were turned. Snape gat his revenge
<Narya> And the comment was "bullying toerag"
<mlwl> technically no
<elizabeth18> Oh, I think we can assume that, narya
<magicmeg8> and we don't know whether snape brought it upon himself at first
<Skillet9886> Snape wasn't popular to begin with, but I'm sure the Marauders only made things worse for him
<Narya> which is different from "bully"
<mlwl> but Bullying NEVER starts at age 16 if they've none each other longer
<elizabeth18> Can you bring bullying upon yourself?
<xXxMagicalMandixXx> Exactly, Skillit.
<gingin77> not in that scene but i doubt that snape let them always have the advantage
<MonieLou> No, your right Evreka. But we got a good chink of what the early years of hogwrats must have been like for Snape.
<Narya> Snape was a bully himself, with his knowledge and skills
<elizabeth18> I think Snape was unppopular and James was popular
<elizabeth18> so the just started fighting
<MonieLou> Don't think. That's true
<FlamingHorcri> To me it seemed like Snape was a greasy little loner
<magicmeg8> i mean -- perhaps he was mean to them as first years
<elizabeth18> and probably neither one of them could tell you what started it
<xXxMagicalMandixXx> Snape thought he was superior.
<magicmeg8> and it escalated
<mlwl> it IS bullying if there are 4 on 1
<FlamingHorcri> and james thought it was fun to pick on him
<MonieLou> Its even stated in canon
<memyslfnI> they believed in two different things
<Narya> They were too alike
<Skillet9886> I don't think their interactions were any different than average 8th graders
<MonieLou> Who?
<elizabeth18> alike?
<MonieLou> Snape and James?
<Evreka> Where MonieLou? Isn't it just one memory from one day?
<Narya> Yes
<elizabeth18> How so?
<Narya> Both arrogant
<DorisTLC> I see SNAPE as the extrememly intelligent student who had very few friends
<memyslfnI> yes, Narya they were
<Mokey> but did the mauraders go after him because he was into dark arts or because he was an easy target
<xXxMagicalMandixXx> I think Snape wanted power. He was jealous of James, Sirius, Lupin, and Pettigrew.
<FlamingHorcri> that's what I mean Doris.
<FlamingHorcri> He didn't DO the same things they did
<Skillet9886> I think probably both, Mokey
<Mokey> because being bullied could have fueled his passion for the Dark arts
<FlamingHorcri> he was a bit of a book nerd....a slytherin....poor (I assume from the book)
<Evreka> No idea, MonieLou, but it doesn't prove it was a typical day.
<magicmeg8> i agree evreka
<Evreka> Might have been but we don't know it
<MonieLou> Sirius said that they jixed each other every chance they got
<FlamingHorcri> and he was a half blood
<Narya> Both reckless
<Narya> I think it was even, Mokey
<DorisTLC> Exactly! That made him an outcast - easily picked on by the majority, who may have been jealous of his intelligence. I see that often with the kids I teach
<FlamingHorcri> and James was the opposite of those things
<Skillet9886> I think Snape's and James's/Sirius's attitudes fueled each other....a huge, unpleasant cycle
<elizabeth18> you know, maybe since Snape put this in the Pensieve that means that it is a bit more important that we were thinking
<MonieLou> That seems pretty typical to tme
<elizabeth18> and not really a typical day
<memyslfnI> he probably flaunted his knowledge of the dark arts..otherwise how would they know he knew more hexes then the older students?
<FlamingHorcri> I think that Snape could have really hurt James
<mlwl> i do too, doris
<elizabeth18> something that really embarressed Snape
<Narya> I think they were all equally to blame
<magicmeg8> but that's interesting elizabeth
<MonieLou> Jixing each other every chance they got? TYPICAL
<FlamingHorcri> especially with the knowlede of Sectumsempra? he could have REALLY hurt him
<mlwl> nothing is equal when it is 4 on one
<FlamingHorcri> but he chose not to
<Narya> Yes, very typical
<FlamingHorcri> I wonder why
<gingin77> i get you elizabeth
<NickTLC> Do we find a reversal of this situation, then, of the popular bullying the unpopular, with Malfoy and Harry? Are the two situations comparable?
<Skillet9886> I see that with my students too, Doris...I don't see James and Snape as extraordinary cases
<Narya> Because he knew that spell was illegal, I think ...
<gingin77> Sectumsempra was used that day wasnt it?
<elizabeth18> Malfoy and Harry are both popular
<NickTLC> Comparable but flipped, that is
<elizabeth18> just in different cliques
<MonieLou> But aren't both Harry and Malfoy popular in their own Houses>?
<MonieLou> *??
<FlamingHorcri> yes
<Evreka> Do we know how old Mulciber, Rosiers were?
<Narya> They're typical teens - I see that in my students as well
<MonieLou> Malfoy seems to pull some rank, and Harry the same
<magicmeg8> (harry's popularity level seem to change every month)
<gingin77> I think Harry is more widely popular through the school than Draco is tho
<DorisTLC> Harry is popular - but his friends are scared of him - Harry's love him.
<Skillet9886> I don't think Malfoy or Harry are either as popular as James was
<Narya> Same age as Lucius, I think
<xXxMagicalMandixXx> True Meg!
<DorisTLC> his - being draco
<gingin77> yes skillet... i agree
<Narya> Yes, Harry's friends love him - that's the difference
<MonieLou> I meant in their respective houses
<Evreka> If they were older than Snape and gr