WWW Corner Booth Transcript: Jun 14, 2006, Themes in HP |
 Jun 28 2006, 08:15 AM
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Chief Cat Herder  Posts: 3,514 Joined: 10:28am August 6, 2005 Location: In the Corner Booth - home of the elusive Holy Grain!    |
*** magicmeg8 has joined #lounge
Topic is: Themes in Harry Potter (Aislinn) <magicmeg8> haha *** LJ has joined #lounge <magicmeg8> zomg, l.j is here!!! <magicmeg8> haah *** Trozam has joined #lounge *** stewiegryf has joined #lounge *** SoonerGryffindor has joined #lounge *** Poet has joined #lounge <magicmeg8> Hey guys! <stewiegryf> hey everyone! <Aislinn> hi guys! <Poet> Oh happy day! <SoonerGryffindor> hello all <SoonerGryffindor> woot! I was able to get into the chat without troubles <Aislinn> yay! *** Accio-Chocolate-Frog has joined #lounge <stewiegryf> that's always good *** Belenzie has joined #lounge <Aislinn> We'll give people a chance to join us, and get started in a little bit <Belenzie> okay it worked! *** beadgirl has joined #lounge <Belenzie> guess what!!!....i finally made my first "true" post today!! <magicmeg8> congrats bel biggrin <SoonerGryffindor> good for you bel <Belenzie> ....stupid quick reply <LJ> SoonerGryffindor: what do you mean without troubles, do you normally? <LJ> awesome Bel, where to? <SoonerGryffindor> the last couple of weeks were bad <LJ> when you first tried to get in, or throughout? <Aislinn> we had those bugs the night we discussed lupin, and then got a late start sometime recently *** harryfreak359 has joined #lounge <Belenzie> snape and hermione....the wizards of the twentieth century forum <SoonerGryffindor> what ais said *** stinkywinky has joined #lounge <Belenzie> i didn't know quick reply didn't count as a real post <magicmeg8> it doesn;'t? <SoonerGryffindor> I think it does <Aislinn> I thought it did <LJ> oh yeah, forgot bout those troubles, Snuffles had a bit of a fever, he's fine now <beadgirl> i always thought it did <Aislinn> !botsnack <stinkywinky> Hi all! * Snuffles munches on a yummy treat <harryfreak359> i thought it did too <magicmeg8> smile <Aislinn> just feeding him to be sure! <magicmeg8> lol <LJ> we remember to feed him everyday now *** Potternerd has joined #lounge <Belenzie> well i've used it a few times before and it never counted.. and i just did "reply" today and it finally counted on my post counter <SoonerGryffindor> heh, looks like half or room 2 is in here <SoonerGryffindor> *of *** Potternerd has quit [Bye] <Poet> Thank goodness Snuffles recovered <stewiegryf> i was just thinking that sooner <Aislinn> hmmm, I'll have to test that out, bel <magicmeg8> yes, we were all pleased, poet biggrin <SoonerGryffindor> I've never had a problem with quick reply not counting my posts <magicmeg8> we have to keep him in the house now, though, 'cause he's run away before. <harryfreak359> me either <magicmeg8> lol <SoonerGryffindor> however, what is the problem with internet explorer and the back button? <Aislinn> well, you know how snuffles doesn't like to be locked up <Accio-Chocolate-Frog> quick reply has never worked for me. But I only tried it a few times. <harryfreak359> yeah i get that <stinkywinky> I'm having that trouble too <Belenzie> well maybe its cuz i'm canadian??? ;) <Aislinn> I think the techies are still working on that one sooner <stewiegryf> oh, that explains it all bel...;) <Poet> Accio- Chocolate-Frog: Any chance of getting your name changed to "Accio All Chocolate!" <stewiegryf> lol <beadgirl> i dont think that has anything to do with it <magicmeg8> haha bel. well, i like to proof my posts, so i usually do the full reply. <SoonerGryffindor> me too meg <magicmeg8> smile <Accio-Chocolate-Frog> yeah all chocolate and then a diet coke to wash it down. <Aislinn> me too, or I'd get my quotes wrong <SoonerGryffindor> we really need a chocolate smiley <stewiegryf> i usually use quick reply. it's always worked fine for me, but I'm using FireFox <magicmeg8> nothing's worse than thinking you've got the coding right, posting, and realizing it's all a bunch of symbols, lol. <Belenzie> well i'm still new or asit says on my prof. "through the brick wall" so i'm slowly learning <LJ> I always preview too, and I usually quote someone's post, so it goes to Reply anyway <Accio-Chocolate-Frog> I'm just starting to get the hang of it too. But the quotes didn't work the other day? *** DorisTLC has joined #lounge *** Brin has joined #lounge <LJ> Hey D <SoonerGryffindor> I found out the hard way that you can only use so many quotes before your post gets garbled <magicmeg8> Long time, no see, doris smile <stewiegryf> Accio: I think someone said they were redoing the coding that day, you just happned to see it at the wrong time <LJ> 10 quotes per post <Poet> We have Biscuit or HAD biscuit. Maybe we need Chocolate Biscuit (a dewy-eyed pink smiley eyeing chocolate bar) <SoonerGryffindor> yep smile <DorisTLC> Hey everyone <stewiegryf> hey doris! <stinkywinky> hi! <SoonerGryffindor> hi Doris <beadgirl> hi! <DorisTLC> How is everyone tonight? <SoonerGryffindor> great smile <harryfreak359> good <stinkywinky> fine <Poet> 'lo <stewiegryf> good, but its not really "night" in california yet... <stinkywinky> You? <Poet> Ready to be academic! <DorisTLC> Haha -- not night here in Twxas either! <SoonerGryffindor> same here from Oklahoma <DorisTLC> Texas* - I should look before I hit enter <harryfreak359> or in Arizona <beadgirl> im in pennsylvainia, so its gettin there lol <LJ> it's 12:10am here <SoonerGryffindor> heh, doris... you don't want to know how a Sooner spells texas....lol <DorisTLC> Then it's good morning to LJ <stewiegryf> Sooner...do you know that it took me a couple of days to make the connection between your name and Oklahoma? <stewiegryf> lol <Accio-Chocolate-Frog> It's 6:00 in Minnesota. <stinkywinky> 6pm in MO <SoonerGryffindor> not a football fan, eh? <LJ> woot, it's officially Don's birthday now smile <stewiegryf> no, i am. that's the thing. <SoonerGryffindor> lol <Poet> Excellen LJ - I assume you're at *cough* work? <stewiegryf> just don't know what i was thinking <SoonerGryffindor> ha! My avatar should have told the story <stewiegryf> it wasn't my brightest moment, i admit <LJ> haha, not right now - it's past midnight <SoonerGryffindor> lol stewie *** beadgirl has quit [Bye] <stinkywinky> Anyone remember the questions we were to discuss? <harryfreak359> sotra <stewiegryf> themes in HP <harryfreak359> sorta* <SoonerGryffindor> oh, we're here to discuss questions? *wink <stinkywinky> Someone name a theme in HP <Poet> Oh duh I knew that LJ. 12:10am not 12:10pm <stewiegryf> Death in HP <Brin> Light vs dark <stinkywinky> color green <Poet> yep <SoonerGryffindor> Love <Belenzie> is there ever gonna be a free for all chat???? you know we just start talking and we just go with the flow...wherever it may take us?? <harryfreak359> bravery <Accio-Chocolate-Frog> Loyalty,death and bigotry <Belenzie> choices!! <stinkywinky> difficult choices, right choices <Poet> Sacrifice <Aislinn> its time <Belenzie> love! <SoonerGryffindor> yay <stewiegryf> I think we should wait for the mods to start us off <stinkywinky> ohh good one poet! <magicmeg8> We will be starting the discussion in 5 minutes. You’re not going to be able to type for a few minutes while we make some announcements, please bear with us, you’ll be able to type again soon. <Belenzie> mods...sods....majority rules we start now!!! <stinkywinky> waiting patiently <Aislinn> There may be times during the chat when a moderator will want to PM something to you. Please keep an eye on the top of your screen, right next to the button with #Lounge on it. A button will appear with one of the mods' names on it. If you see that appear, click on it to see the PM that has been sent to you by that mod. You won’t be able to reply to that PM, but please say let a mod know you've recieved it in the main chat. <LJ> If you need to reach us, send us a PM on the Lounge - we'll check for them periodically. If we don't reply shortly thereafter, you can let us know in the CB that you sent one, but please only tell us once so it doesn't disupt the discussion. <Aislinn> Tonight we’re going to discuss themes. Themes are recurrent ideas that run through a story, usually implied messages about life, society, or human nature. JKR has said that she didn’t set out to write a moralistic tale, or to send us specific messages, nevertheless, there are several themes that emerge naturally from the Potterverse. Some of the themes that are evident include: choices, loyalty and bigotry, among others. *** Aislinn has quit [Bye] *** Aislinn has joined #lounge <Aislinn> Let’s take on one theme at a time, OK? How about if we start with the theme of choice <magicmeg8> Well, obviously, choice is very important to the series. We see it everywhere. <magicmeg8> Feel free to share your thoughts smile/ <Aislinn> you guys can type again <LJ> you can all talk now, <harryfreak359> yes, if different choices had been made the story would have turned out different <SoonerGryffindor> Can we start anywhere, or do you guys have a specific question *** Sidrat2006 has joined #lounge <stinkywinky> I love how JKR makes the point that it is often the difficult choice that is the right one. <Accio-Chocolate-Frog> One big choice is when Harry chose Ron over Draco in PS/SS <Aislinn> Sooner, let's talk about the theme of choice first <harryfreak359> yeah, that was a good choice, imagine if harry picked draco of ron adn hermione? *** MissLadyLynn has joined #lounge <SoonerGryffindor> Harry chooses Gryffndor over Slytherin <Aislinn> Yes, Accio, I agree that was the 1st really big choice Harry made <magicmeg8> Hi, MissLady -- at the moment we're talking about the theme of choice in HP <stinkywinky> Well, he also made the choice to leave the Dursley's and go to Hogwarts with Hagrid <Accio-Chocolate-Frog> Hermione also chose friendship over rules during the whole troll incident <Aislinn> do people think that Harry would have turned out differently if he hadn't made that choice? *** tbunny has joined #lounge <MissLadyLynn> thanks, magic <magicmeg8> smile <Aislinn> true, stinky <SoonerGryffindor> Well, he wouldn't have had the same friends *** Poet has quit [Bye] <Brin> Sometime it is not just hard to make a difficult choice but to accept a difficult choice. For example Harry has felt angry with DD choice for Snape to teach him Occlumency. *** Poet has joined #lounge <SoonerGryffindor> and he wouldn't have been ble to do what he has done so far <Poet> Even the Sorting Hat can be swayed by the strong choice that one has to be in one house over another <magicmeg8> I think his strengths would have been used in different ways, Ais. <Sidrat2006> The sorting hat just gives you it's opinion. It doesn't put you anywhere you don't want to be *** stinkywinky has quit [Bye] *** aixla has joined #lounge <stewiegryf> I think that Harry would have been different, but not as much as people think. He is very strong willed, and he would still have some of the same characteristics <Aislinn> so you think its primarily the choice of each kid? <Sidrat2006> Which is how some people join houses they really don't belong to <magicmeg8> Hi, aixla at the moment we're talking about the theme of choice in HP <Accio-Chocolate-Frog> What if they don't know they have a choice <SoonerGryffindor> I think that the hat decides, but it does take into consideration their choices <aixla> Thanks, I'm between clases, only have a minute <Aislinn> I agree stewie <Brin> I think maybe you only have a choice when the hat tetters between more than one house. <Poet> Some students probably don't assert themselves to be in one house or another, but obviously Harry and Hermione did. I assume Sirius did as well if he was already detesting the Dark Arts at age 11 <aixla> I came in late, so excuse me if it's been said ... Perhaps a child making a choice/not making a choice shows where he belongs <aixla> It takes a certain kind of 11 year old to be that strong willed <stewiegryf> good point aixla <SoonerGryffindor> I would love to hear how Sirius got into Gryffndor <Aislinn> you mean if he doesn't make a choice, that in itself is a kind of choice? <aixla> Yes <stewiegryf> what about neville? do you all think that he was assertive with the Hat? <Poet> So, the hat is just one canon example of choices winning over "genetics" or "fate" <magicmeg8> I think you and Poet are both right, Aixla <SoonerGryffindor> the hat took a long time with Neville <Aislinn> I think so, poet <aixla> Neville is stronger than he lets on <harryfreak359> yeah, well he is brave some of the time <SoonerGryffindor> I think it had to look a little deeper with him <Accio-Chocolate-Frog> Maybe his disire to be in Gryfendor won out. <aixla> To have been through everything he has, and still be so sweet and kind takes courage *** Whisperwing has joined #lounge <aixla> Hola whispering' <Belenzie> yeah i think the hat had to help neville "see" what house he belonged to <stewiegryf> I agree. I think while he may seem shy on the outside, he is really assertive deep down <MissLadyLynn> Whether or not Neville was assertive with the hat, I definatelt think that he was placed in to the proper house <Whisperwing> Hey EYE-la! <LJ> I think that the Hat looks into the persons heart and mind, determines that persons strengths/abilities from within them. <magicmeg8> So, would Neville and other students choose to be in a certain house? <magicmeg8> I'm inclined to agree with you, Laurie. <aixla> *LOL Whisper, you rememberd. Grettings, We're discussing choice in HP, specifically the sorting hat <harryfreak359> yeah me too <Accio-Chocolate-Frog> I think their may be a bit of prestiege associated with certain houses <SoonerGryffindor> me too <Aislinn> so it may be a choice in their heart, even if they don't express it <SoonerGryffindor> yes <Sidrat2006> The Hat is only an object, a magical one sure, but it will only give it's opinions on where it thinks you will do well. It's your decision <Whisperwing> Certainly it rattles off a list of attributes into the ear of whomever it's taking some time with. <Belenzie> yeah like draco did choose to be in slytherin because thats where he thought he belonged...where he wanted to belong <aixla> I think it's interesting that just because we know a little about a character, we assume we know what house they'll be in. I mean, if we didn't know better we never would have guessed that Pettigrew would be a gryffindor! <Aislinn> right, bel <Sidrat2006> We've only heard what the Hat said to Harry though <magicmeg8> good point, Sid. <SoonerGryffindor> I loved how Harry argued with the hat smile <aixla> Didn't Hermione say that the hat considered Ravenclaw for her? *** Mokey has joined #lounge <Whisperwing> Yes but Hermione also said it had considered putting her in Ravenclaw <harryfreak359> yes she did <Aislinn> we got a hint that the hat considered putting Hermione in Ravenclaw * Whisperwing grins <Sidrat2006> see the hat is only there to suggest. <SoonerGryffindor> yes, but Hermione did the same thing Harry did I think. Rmember, she said on the train she wanted to be in Gryffindor <Whisperwing> Never mind the long time it took with Seamus Finnegan. <Belenzie> well i have always found it wierd that 9!! Weasleys were put in gryffindor, they are all different in their own right...percy has always seemed more slytherin to me <aixla> What does it mean that the hat barely touched the head of Malfoy? <SoonerGryffindor> that he's a hopeless case? lol <Whisperwing> Didn't like his hair product. <aixla> *LOL <Aislinn> but maybe they all have a core of courage that they get from their family <Sidrat2006> the Hat decided they both had the same idea. why discuss it? <Belenzie> his want of slytherin was so strong the hat didn't need to help him decide <aixla> It will take alot of courage for Percy to come back to his family, and I think he will <Whisperwing> Eau du Serpente? <SoonerGryffindor> lol ww <stewiegryf> the hat was using legilimency on Draco <Sidrat2006> probably <Brin> I believe the hat is able to know what is in their heart whether they act on it or not. <harryfreak359> yeah <aixla> Huh, does that mean an oclumens could fool the hat? <Aislinn> me too brin <Mokey> that's a good point brin, I agree <Accio-Chocolate-Frog> What is really interesting is that the hat wants inner house unity. <Sidrat2006> You wouldn't need to would you? <Whisperwing> WHo at the age of eleven would be an Occlumency master? <Belenzie> well there are a feww who thought that draco's hair was the half blood prince <Poet> This is just my opinion, but if Percy had wanted to be in Slytherin....the hat would have probably seen that in his heart and place him there. <SoonerGryffindor> the hat has the brains of the 4 foudners. I think it would be hard to fool it <Sidrat2006> unless you didn't want any HeadMaster to be told what the Hat saw of course <Belenzie> ....... serious!!!! i love slythergenic where ever she is! <harryfreak359> exactlywhat i was going to say whisper *** aixla has quit [Bye] <Whisperwing> Slytherins don't get made Minister of Magic, do they? <SoonerGryffindor> we don't know for sure <harryfreak359> hopefully not, but probably <MissLadyLynn> Percy probably does belong in Gryffindor, and he BETTER show it in the next book <Accio-Chocolate-Frog> Why not they are the ambitious house <Sidrat2006> I thought the current MoM was in slytherin? <stewiegryf> Maybe Percy choose Gryffindor just for that reason, Whisper <Brin> We don't know really. I'd say Fudge seems slytherin like. <Sidrat2006> don't know why <SoonerGryffindor> I agree Brn <Whisperwing> But if the majority of them were Gryffindor, that would be all the incentive Percy needed to want to be Gryffindor as well. <Whisperwing> Yah <Mokey> Fudge seems a little wishy wasy for Slytehrin to me <harryfreak359> fudge i say is a hufflepuff <Belenzie> i didn't say percy wanted to be in slytherin i\he just seems slythereny...just like harry he was slytherin material but he wasnted to be somewhere else <Aislinn> What other choices do we think are critical to Harry's path in this story? <Mokey> I would think so too harryfreak <Whisperwing> Making the friends he makes. <SoonerGryffindor> the choice he made to fight LV head on in GoF <harryfreak359> yeah <Accio-Chocolate-Frog> I think Percy has lots of Ravenclaw in him too. <stewiegryf> I'd say the choice to go after the stone in PS and prove that he was worthy of fighting LV <Poet> Still talking about choices? <Sidrat2006> The choice to be a very grounded child despite his upbringing and examples, he is certainly a good house guest <MissLadyLynn> i'm gonna go now, my eyes are freaking out watching the words move. smile <Brin> Harry's choice to defy the rules at the school for his safety <Mokey> the choice he made to split the cup with Cedric, I thinnk is important *** BamaHP has joined #lounge *** MissLadyLynn has quit [Bye] *** stewiegryf left #lounge [] <magicmeg8> Hi, BamaHP -- we're talking about choice in HP at the moment. <SoonerGryffindor> the choice to not let Lupin & Sirius kill PP <Mokey> hi Bama <Belenzie> to trust in dumbledores judgement....but i think he's being stupid in that respect if he listened to what dumbles said in bookmk 6 about the horcruxes <Brin> His choice in the end of book 6 to seperate from ginny <BamaHP> Hey guys <SoonerGryffindor> hey Bama <Aislinn> that was a critical one, wasn't it sooner? *** Trozam has quit [Bye] <Brin> His choice to let Hermione and Ron cont. on with him. CRITICAL CHOICE <Belenzie> best choice in his life that one!!! <SoonerGryffindor> yes...I'm still hoping for payback on that one *** Trozam has joined #lounge <Poet> Harry made a choice in the graveyard to take Cedric's body back, though he was at risk himself. Ron made a choice in the Book 1 chess "graveyard" to sacrifice himself for Harry's sake <Aislinn> me too <magicmeg8> I hadn't thought of that, Poet. <Whisperwing> For instance, when he heard the voice of the Basilisk, his first reaction was to run to save whoever it was the voice was promising to kill, not even if he'd known it was Mrs. Norris would that have changed, I'd think. <Mokey> I agree brin, that's probably the most importand choice IMO <Belenzie> harry chose to forget that snape was in the order!1 <Aislinn> I agree, whisperwing <SoonerGryffindor> that was a bad choice bel <Brin> Harry choice to try and save Siruis twice <Belenzie> yeah but it crucial <BamaHP> I think a lot of the choices Harry makes, he feels that he doesn't have any other choice. <BamaHP> Even though he does. <SoonerGryffindor> that whole saving people thing? <Mokey> Harry seems to go with his gut alot <Accio-Chocolate-Frog> What about the choice to fight willingly instead of being made to fight. Go in with your head up. <Brin> He has a choice for sure but HArry does what he can live with. <magicmeg8> I agree Bama, his choices are sort of between extremes. <Aislinn> I see him as being driven by a central choice to fight against the dark side and everything LV represents <SoonerGryffindor> ACF, I think that choice will be what saves his life <Aislinn> many of the choices that may seem not like choices seem to stem from that <harryfreak359> yeah <Accio-Chocolate-Frog> He has a good moral compass <SoonerGryffindor> amazingly enough <harryfreak359> "moral fiber" <Whisperwing> And yet then again, even casual seeming choices, like blowing off Draco's overtures od friendship from the beginning, come to have far-reaching repercussions. Fed Draco's apparent obsession with him, for starters. <Whisperwing> of^ <harryfreak359> yeah i agree <Sidrat2006> Being able to survive the first year in school was pretty impressive too, not just the fame factor <magicmeg8> True, Whisperwing. It seems that all of Harry's choices, and choices in general, have a lasting, though subtle, impression on others. <Brin> Why would HArry chose Draco as a friend. He might as well be best friends with Dudley. <harryfreak359> lol <Accio-Chocolate-Frog> Would you have been able to give Harry over as a baby to the Dursley's. That was a hard choice that DD made. <magicmeg8> Brin, he could have chose to gain power by joining with Draco. <magicmeg8> *chosen <Whisperwing> If status meant something to Harry, more than honest friendship, that would make it another story. *** tbunny left #lounge [] <Aislinn> but Draco was the 1st kid he met - he could have made the choice to make friends with the first person who reached out to him <Brin> I think DD has made some tough choices. Like how long he took to tell Harry all. <BamaHP> His mother made an important choice as well. <harryfreak359> oh yeah <SoonerGryffindor> good thing he didn't Ais <Whisperwing> I still think McGonagall would have tried to convince Dumbledore to let her raise him if he weren't so adamant it had to be his blood relations. <Aislinn> Do you think that was the right choice, brin? <Aislinn> agreed, sooner <Brin> I'm dying to know what makes DD chose to trust Snape to the very end. <Mokey> I think it shows Harry's strong character that he didn't make friends with Draco. Alot of people in Harry's position would just be glad to have a friend <Aislinn> exactly, mokey <harryfreak359> me too brin <Belenzie> well if draco hadn't gone all high and mighty in madame malkins and instead introduced himself then would harry of befriended him or atleast acknowledged him positively??, and would that of changed harry behavior to harry appropiatly??...i think so <Brin> No, I think DD waited too long. Harry should have been told prior to the Sirius Vision <BamaHP> Harry had a glimpse into Draco's character before the offer though. *** aixla has joined #lounge <aixla> Sorry guys. What did I miss? <Aislinn> me too <SoonerGryffindor> good thing Draco was obnoxious <Belenzie> i meant draco's behavior to harry**** <magicmeg8> Yeah. I think if Draco hadn't talked to Harry as long as he did in Mme. Malkin's, Harry might've sat with him on the train. <Poet> Fortunately Harry had the chance to see Draco for who he really was - Draco in Madame Malkins' made an offensive comment about Hagrid. <Whisperwing> But Harry had his fill of status-seeking from living with the Dursleys, after all. <Poet> Brinn- great topic of "choice" ! <aixla> Really? I think Harry disliked him from the very first word. That tone he took with the Malkin was terrible <Aislinn> He does seem willing to give people the benefit of the doubt until they show themselves not to deserve his trust <BamaHP> Harry is a good judge of character...uhem (snape) uhem <aixla> No, that's Hagrid <Belenzie> well is that who draco really is or what he "chooses" to be at hogwarts <SoonerGryffindor> so is it a good thing really n the long run that Dudley treated him so bad? <Aislinn> agree bama! <Belenzie> cuz he's a lot different in book 6 <Aislinn> I think that is who he really is bel <aixla> Draco thought he was the Death Eater type, like his dad. When he actually had to act on it, though, he realized he didn't have it in him. He's all talk. <BamaHP> I don't know who Snape is working for...but Harry is right about Snape's character. <Whisperwing> Draco wasn't 'in' Hogwarts when Harry first encountered him. <Belenzie> i disagree, i think we saw more of the real draco malfoy in book 6 then we ever have <Brin> I think Draco has made some tough choices whether he really wanted to or did what his Dad wanted him to <harryfreak359> harry cant judge snape fairly anymore <aixla> We don't really know who we are until we hit a certain age. Even at 27 I don't know who I am yet, or who I will be. <Aislinn> How about the choices that someone like Percy makes, or Crouch Sr, or Fudge? Is JKR telling us anything with these choices? <Accio-Chocolate-Frog> who you are in a crisis is different then who you are when things are going well too. <SoonerGryffindor> Their choices are made for their own personal gain <Poet> What about Draco's choice to not kill DD? He was even crying in the bathrooms. <aixla> The problem with the Ministry characters is that we can't see all their information or motives *** kyrane has joined #lounge <aixla> Just like any government <Brin> Yes I think JKR shows us that there are the right and wrong reasons to make choices and Percy makes his decisions based on the wrong info and Fudge is the same *** eponine244 has joined #lounge <Belenzie> and mean that in a positive way...just like narcissa......who's views changed on narcissa after book 6??.....mine were really just confirmed but i bet alot were surprised by her <SoonerGryffindor> I think she is telling us that we also need to consider the greater good, and not just what is good for us at the time <Accio-Chocolate-Frog> yeah but he didn't have a problem with killing the wrong people to get to dumbledore. <aixla> I do believe that Percy really did think he was doing the right thing. He was a believer in law and order, a believer in the ministry. The idea that Fudge could make a mistake didn't occur to him. <Mokey> a lot of these people make passive choices, I think Jo is telling us that it's necessary to be strong and brave and active, because "do nothing" choices can have just as big repercussions <aixla> Or the idea that Fudge would lie to save his skin. <SoonerGryffindor> I agree mokey <Whisperwing> I figured she was thoroughly devoted to Draco when it came up that she was against letting Draco go to Durmstrang in GoF. <Mokey> well put aixla <Brin> Fudge for instance makes his choices out of fear he will be disliked and booted from the ministry. Well in the meantime a lot of people are hurt and then he is booted from the ministry <Aislinn> right <aixla> Self-fufilling propchecy <aixla> sorry. I can't spell <harryfreak359> yeah brin *** DorisTLC has quit [Bye] <BamaHP> I think there is something Jo is saying about stubborn choices. Percy, Snape, Fudge, etc...have all decided to stubbornly stick to their decisions even when the evidence is clearly against them. <aixla> Like LV ... he tried so hard to avoid his fate that he brought it on himself <Brin> Percy is choosing to following his career at the expense of his family. At the expense of love. He has hurt a lot of people this way. <aixla> But if you believe that you are doing the right and noble thing, sometimes you have to go against your family *** DorisTLC has joined #lounge *** eponine244 has quit [Bye] *** eponine244 has joined #lounge <SoonerGryffindor> But the real question is whether or not Percy realizes that he made the wrong choices yet <Poet> So, perhaps Accio, Draco was driven by fear rather than moral choice <Brin> True but when your proven wrong as Percy has been and you cont. then you are guilty <aixla> I think so. Just the way he talked to his mother at Christmas <Whisperwing> He's probably lost Penelope Clearwater a long time ago for much the same reason. COming across as a young Ebenezer Scgrooge in my opinion. <harryfreak359> i think he has sooner <Whisperwing> Er, Scrooge <Brin> I think that Draco is defenitly driven by fear <Belenzie> he will....about 3 seconds before he dies in his mother arms <eponine244> I like the Percy/Scrooge paralell <Aislinn> One of the choices we see being made by the folks at the ministry is to treat different magical creatures not as equals *** Sidrat2006 has quit [Bye] <SoonerGryffindor> ooooh, that's such a sad thought bel <Brin> Scrooge is a great way to describe Percy <Mokey> I think wrong is a strong word...everything is subjective, if Percy thinks he's doing the right thing then he is being true to himself <SoonerGryffindor> cough*umbreidge*cough <Whisperwing> But hopefully he'll come to his senses long before he's a miserly old man. <Aislinn> which brings us to another theme - bigotry and racism <Brin> The ministry will pay for how they have treated others. <Belenzie> yeah well that or something close to that is gonna happen <eponine244> Hopefully he turns around sooner thatn Scrooge does <Mokey> (please don't read that as I like him, cause I don't ;) ) <Whisperwing> Aha. *** aixla has quit [Bye] <SoonerGryffindor> blood status *** bitznbats has joined #lounge <Aislinn> that's one of the big ones, sooner <Belenzie> just like voldemort thinks killing mindlessly is right so its okay and understandable cuz he's being true to himself smile <harryfreak359> major part of the books <Aislinn> and certainly something that we see Draco exhibiting <magicmeg8> Hi Bitznbats -- at the moment we're talking about the theme of prejudice in HP <Brin> I think bigotry is probably the most distaste full of the theme we have to deal with. It sad because as a society we are so guilty of it and its like shining a big spot light on our horrible vices. <Poet> Where does the Ministry's biogtry come from? <BamaHP> I think most bigotry in the books is a product of upbringing. Uncle Vernon, Aunt Marge, and Draco are really good examples. <Mokey> bigotry and racism is the biggest them in the books IMO. I think its very important that Harry never gives in to prejudice <SoonerGryffindor> I wonder if Draco would have held Harry's status againt him if they would hve become friends? <harryfreak359> perhaps, sooner <Brin> Upbringing is certainly how bigorty is spread. <Aislinn> he probably wouldn't have let him forget it sooner *** aixla has joined #lounge <Aislinn> Poet - that's a good question <Mokey> good point soonergryffindor, that makes me wonder if the DE's knew LV's blood status <Whisperwing> I think it's a little naive to think that the concept of 'half-bloods' doesn't exist in the 'real' world -- it's a tremendous issue for Native American tribal records, actually. <aixla> Am I the only one who's getting booted off every five minutes? <Aislinn> I think it stems from fear <SoonerGryffindor> Well, we know they freaked when Hrry mentioned it <Belenzie> think wizards have it all wrong i think the whole being true to your blood meant more about family than blood in the litaral sense, and just got it wrong through the generations <LJ> I don't think they do, or at least didn't before he became the Dark Lord <Trozam> I hear you there, Whisperwing. <Aislinn> are you using the back space key aixla? <Brin> I don't think Draco and Harry would have been able to maintain a friendship. Lucius would forbid it don't you think. Harry is a representation of what he hates. <Aislinn> that'lll kick you off <aixla> Aha. Thanks <Whisperwing> Some tribes more than others, of course. <aixla> Are we still talking about magical creatures and such? I was just wondering what you guys think of House Elves. I mean, they couldn't always have been servants. Where did they come from? What did they used to be like? <aixla> Maybe that's a little OT. Sorry <magicmeg8> We're talking about prejudice in HP, aixla smile <SoonerGryffindor> wow, elves almost deserve their own topic <Poet> Of course bigotry exists in the real world. The Ministry of Magic is a wizarding organization. Centaurs have prejudices against wizards too ;) <magicmeg8> which can be applied to elves <magicmeg8> and non-human creatures. <Whisperwing> Then House Elves is on topic <Aislinn> aixla - we can talk about them in relation to how they are treated within wizarding society <Accio-Chocolate-Frog> Part of the problem of prejudice I see is the ignorance of the situation. Full blood wizard families like the Weasleys may not see the problem until it is too late. <aixla> Did house elves make a choice to become this way? <harryfreak359> why would they? <Aislinn> Poet - is that a chicken and egg kind of thing thought? <Aislinn> though *** stewiegryf has joined #lounge <aixla> I don't know. But they're so powerful ... how else could it have happened? <SoonerGryffindor> maybe we should ask ourselves why they are so willing to remain servants? <Whisperwing> Were they in fact magically created, a race that began as a conjuration of a powerful wizard in ancient times? <magicmeg8> Hey Stewiegryf - at the moment we're talking about prejudice in HP, <aixla> True. They make the choice (see, back on topic) to stay where they are. <Poet> I agree Aislinn - government biotry due to fear of other creatures being more powerful than they - similar to countries being afraid of each other and being at war with one another. <bitznbats> because they have been for as long as they can remember <Mokey> I think it's interesting that we never hear anything of this from prof binns class, or from hermiones research <Brin> DD really works off of education. He tries to teach acceptance without pointing out how everyone is treating each other poorly. He tells Sirius to treat Kreacher better and he offers to pay Dobby more than he wanted. <aixla> About house elves? <stewiegryf> thanks...my computer and i are having some issues right now <Aislinn> yes, Poet - that's what I see too <eponine244> It was probably graduall, they just started as regular servants and were treated worse as time went on. <aixla> The whole "Frog in a frying pan" theory <SoonerGryffindor> but somewhere magic is involved <Aislinn> Brin - I think that's an important point <bitznbats> exactly <Aislinn> I see JKR doing that with us the readers also <Accio-Chocolate-Frog> I don't think all house elves are treated bad. <Aislinn> She is so good at getting points across without being preachy about it <Poet> Aislinn - it IS a catch22 situation perhaps - trust lacking amongst many magical races <eponine244> Maybe they weren't putting up a fight, so they were bound by one or two "bad wizards", and then it spread. <SoonerGryffindor> I agree Ais, one reason I love these books so much <Brin> THis gradual power shift is typical. The issue with Hitler started small. Slowly groups handed over a little more and a little more until things got out of hand. Much like we see now. I think groups like the Giants and elves feel into this problem. <Aislinn> yes poet <aixla> Crap. GTG <Whisperwing> night aixla <harryfreak359> bye <eponine244> Bye <SoonerGryffindor> bye <Trozam> Bye <aixla> For some reason my friends want to eat ... <aixla> c-ya *** aixla has quit [Bye] <Aislinn> that seems to be what is happening in the wizarding world as well brin *** SteffiLynn has joined #lounge <harryfreak359> ok, how about umbridge, she defintiely show prejudice <bitznbats> All the house elves can't be treated bad as didn't Molly say she would have liked one but couldn't afford one or something along those lines? <Brin> DD tries to expose these kids to everything. I think he hopes they will learn to be more accepting. <magicmeg8> Hey Steffilynn - at the moment we're talking about prejudice in HP, <SoonerGryffindor> Umbridge is a real piece of work all right <Brin> Perfect contrast is DD and Umbridge and how they treated the Centaurs <Whisperwing> It's more that they haven't a grand enough home to attract one... <Mokey> bye everybody, it was nice chatting with you <SteffiLynn> Hi everyone, thanks sorry i'm late got caught up in my CoS anylization smile *** Mokey has quit [Bye] <magicmeg8> DD and Umbridge present two extremes in the series concerning treatment of others. <SoonerGryffindor> bye <harryfreak359> bye <BamaHP> What about Snape? He has a different sort of prejudice altogether. A family prejudice. <Whisperwing> They could be dirt-poor but if they lived in a mansion they'd still get a house-elf <Aislinn> as well as the legislation Umbridge got pushed through against werewolves <harryfreak359> yeah, i hated what she said about lupin sad <SoonerGryffindor> what prejudices do you think Snape has Bama? <stewiegryf> i don't think snape is prejudice...He is just holding a grudge <BamaHP> He mistreats Harry for being the son of James. <Brin> Snape has an issue with any gryffindore. <SteffiLynn> I don't think so much has a prejiduce as a grudge <harryfreak359> against James <BamaHP> Its a prejudice. <Poet> There is a parallel story to the one about bigotry amongst the races. That story plays itself out every day in the halls of Hogwarts <BamaHP> A grudge is against James. <SteffiLynn> yes <harryfreak359> yep <BamaHP> A prejudice is against harry. <Whisperwing> But he's particularly hateful of Harry though, and that's directly linked to his problems with James. <SoonerGryffindor> well then Harry has the same prejudice against Snape <Aislinn> Lupin seems to represent a different kind of prejudice for the wizarding world <kyrane> There is much prejudce amongst houses <BamaHP> Harry is reacting to Snape. <Whisperwing> Harry had no idea that Snape and his father had known eachother and yet he still took an instant dislike to him. <magicmeg8> Good point, Kyrane. The houses bring about differences and thus cause for prejudice. <harryfreak359> what we saw in the pensieve definitely show snpae has reason to hate james <SoonerGryffindor> Are we as readers prejudices against certian houses? <harryfreak359> snape* <harryfreak359> no <harryfreak359> not at all <SteffiLynn> Yes but i think the prejiduce against Lupin is understandable to an extend even if i don't agree with it <Aislinn> I see some prejudice against the Slytherins because of the way they are written *** SteffiLynn has quit [Bye] <kyrane> its written in that way.. Hufflepuffs are introduecd as being the house for duffers *** Piccolotto649 has joined #lounge <SoonerGryffindor> yeah, but I stll wonder if that is because we see this through Harry's POV or not <kyrane> so immediatly thats our impression without seeing a hufflepuff character <Brin> There is a lot of socio-economic discrimination in these stories as well <harryfreak359> of course i feel favortism for the houses <magicmeg8> Right, every house has its stereotype. <Piccolotto649> oooh good there are people here <Aislinn> I think that changes once we meet Cedric though *** SteffiLynn has joined #lounge <kyrane> then theres the sorting hat song which is full of stereotypes <magicmeg8> Hi, Piccolotto, we're discussing the theme of prejudice in HP *** BamaHP left #lounge [] <Piccolotto649> nice <Aislinn> I don't know if it is stereotypes so much as traits <Piccolotto649> ok fill me in <SoonerGryffindor> Thank Goodness Luna is in Ravenclaw, because Cho makes me really dislike that house....grr <Aislinn> lol <eponine244> Cedric is a stereotypical Huff. when we first meet him, but he gradually breaks those stereotypes, or at least stretches them. <Whisperwing> After all, what the Hat says is positives. <Accio-Chocolate-Frog> I think people are the same in all the houses. We put the labels on them. <harryfreak359> yeah, i agree sooner <Whisperwing> Are there positive prejudices? *** stewiegryf left #lounge [] <magicmeg8> good question, Whisperwing. <harryfreak359> good question <SoonerGryffindor> good queston <kyrane> do you think the idea of these houses being split by personality encourages steroetying and prejudice?? <Brin> Stereotyping <SoonerGryffindor> both <SteffiLynn> i do to some extent <Accio-Chocolate-Frog> yes absolutly *** Piccolotto649 has quit [Bye] <Aislinn> although we do see cooperation among different Houses in the DA *** Belenzie has quit [Bye] <SoonerGryffindor> all except one *** Piccolotto649 has joined #lounge <Accio-Chocolate-Frog> They didn't include any slytherins though. <Aislinn> and for the most part, the Gryffs get along with the Hufflepuffs they share Herbology with <Piccolotto649> sorry my internet messed up <Accio-Chocolate-Frog> Well for good reason. <kyrane> why do you think that is included in the books when JK already highlights prejudice in the half bloods <SteffiLynn> i think it could be used to teach teamwork and leadership as well as pointing out what they need to work on <Poet> Prejudice against Hufflepuff was erased by a strong leader standing up for their house - her name is Sue smile (Sue is a bit like Dumbledore in this regard - reminds us of the equality amongst all) <bitznbats> I think Jo created the stereotypes to break them to show that your can't judge a book by it's cover <Brin> I think the division of houses is dependent on the situation. THere are plenty of examples of the groups working fine together with the exception of the slytherines <Piccolotto649> i think she highlights it becasue it is a part of life in reality <SoonerGryffindor> lol Poet <Whisperwing> Because prejudice has many faces and isn't one or two-sided. <magicmeg8> How about Whisperwing's point on prejudice: Are there any "good" prejudices that we've seen in the series? <Aislinn> that's a good point bitznbats <SoonerGryffindor> its a hard question to answer <kyrane> Maybe the "duffers " line was writen to be contradicted by cedric to show that steorotypings are not always right <Piccolotto649> i'm sure they're are...i can't point any out at the moment <harryfreak359> i think when we think of slytherin we think evil and mean, but we are fogetting about one slytherin in the books <harryfreak359> Slughorn is a slytherin, and i dont think he show asny of the traits <Aislinn> "good" prejudices to me would be turning a blind eye to the faults of someone you like <SoonerGryffindor> Slughorn <bitznbats> exactly my point kyrane <Piccolotto649> good point sooner <SteffiLynn> what do you mean by good prejiduces i think you need to explain further what you mean <Aislinn> kind of like with Hagrid and his Care of Magical Creatures class <Whisperwing> Well Harry wasn't exactly keen on him, really. <SoonerGryffindor> like Harry does with his father until he is forced to see it? <Brin> I think Slughorn would sell his own mother out for a large pot of gold <kyrane> its said in PS/SS thats all bad wizards are in slytherrin - does that mean that we can asume everyone else in huf/rav anf gryf are good? <Accio-Chocolate-Frog> I think to have a prejudice is to have an assumption about something with out any real evidence or knowledge. <Aislinn> yeah, that's a good example sooner <Aislinn> no kyrane <magicmeg8> Have we seen prejudices as an advantage in situations, I suppose? <Aislinn> we have seen that they are not <Brin> Wormtail went bad <Whisperwing> But it's the negative aspect that pushes it past presumtion or assumption into prejudice, isn't it? <Aislinn> I think so whisperwing <bitznbats> well in PS/SS they still beliebe that Sirius was bad so that can't be right even then kyrane <kyrane> excatly so thats a unlegitimate prejuduce <LJ> Ron said that Ky, but in a later book (might be CoS) it says that MOST bad wizaerds/witches were in Slytherin <SoonerGryffindor> Also, Harry ignores Sirius mistreatment of Kreacher <magicmeg8> Yeah, it's CoS, laurie. <Accio-Chocolate-Frog> They all believe that as long as the have DD they are all safe. <LJ> *wizards <harryfreak359> yeah sooner <eponine244> Because Harry doesn't like Kreacher. <SteffiLynn> I doubt all bad wizards come out of Slytherin. and it would be a great disadvantage for people to believe that bad wizards can't come out of the other houses <eponine244> If he did, it might be different. <harryfreak359> and bc he looks up to sirius <Whisperwing> The belief in Dumbledore being the safety that will protect them all was proven wrong when Cedric died, wasn't it? <Aislinn> We talked about prejudice against half or muggle bloods, and different creatures. The other type I see hinted at by JKR is prejudice against people with illness <Aislinn> We see this with Lupin <Poet> Is it because of our prejudice toward Gryffindor that we are able to be more forgiving of Peter Pettigrew ? Forgiveness is a positive thing even though he may not ever deserve it. <magicmeg8> Good point, Ais. <Aislinn> He could represent mental illness or something like HIV <SoonerGryffindor> also with Frank and Alice Longbottom <Whisperwing> Yes, legislation put through by Umbridge made it even harder than ever to get employment for Remus. <SoonerGryffindor> I remember Draco making a very bad statement about mental illness <SteffiLynn> i can definitely see the mental illness connection <SteffiLynn> with lupin imean <Aislinn> People don't seem to be able to get past his lycanthropy to recognize the truly wonderful person he is <eponine244> I see the Longbottoms as being more pitied than predjudiced against, but I make the connection. *** Belenzie has joined #lounge <Whisperwing> That's like pushing to keep AIDS-positive kids out of school. *** CarpeDiem has joined #lounge <Aislinn> exactly whisperwing <harryfreak359> yeah <eponine244> You should keep in mind that Lupin is one of the very, very few werewolves that are decent. <SoonerGryffindor> well, people like Fenir out there running around don't exactly help Lupins case <harryfreak359> no they dont <Aislinn> well, we don't really know others besides Fenrir <kyrane> you think Lupins ill? <Accio-Chocolate-Frog> How do we know their aren't more decent one's? <SoonerGryffindor> yeah, but I get the idea that there are more like him than lke Lupin <Aislinn> that is actually the kind of assumption that prejudice is based on <SteffiLynn> yes eponine that's why i understand a lot of ppl are prejiduced against him <Brin> I don't know if we can say Lupin is the only one. We really don't meet to many beyond him. <Whisperwing> Remus and Fenrir are the polarizing elements of the lycanthropic community, sort of like Xavier and Magneto... <bitznbats> eponine how do we know that dosen't it say is fantatic beasts that when not transformed ww's are 'normal people?' <Aislinn> Is Lupin or Fenrir more representative of the werewolf community <Belenzie> but the fact that he taught for 10 months without incident should prove in favour of him....but alas they disregard it...sigh <CarpeDiem> Do you think it's worrth sorting through all the "bad" werewolves to find a Lupin every now and then? *** Ginny-From-A-Bottle has joined #lounge <SoonerGryffindor> otherwse, Lupin would not have needed to try to get all of them on ther side <SteffiLynn> it isn't so much him personally but the werewolf in him <Brin> We see prejudice with how you look. MOODY and the "New" Bill will certainly meet problems <Trozam> Of course, it's worth sorting through if you find a Lupin. <Whisperwing> Dude, that totally sounds like the old "only good Indian is a dead Indian" pjilosophy. <eponine244> I don't think they should all be mistreated, but they should be a case-by-case basis *** Lizzieangel90 has joined #lounge <bitznbats> is it worth writing off all the good ones because of one bad one? <eponine244> People just don't want to put in the work to do that. <Aislinn> sooner, Lupin has to work to get them on his side because they have been ostracized by the wizarding community <magicmeg8> Hey GFAB and Lizzie - we're talking about prejudice in HP at the moment, particularly characters' views of illness <eponine244> IT's laziness. <SteffiLynn> i agree that every person should be givin a fair chance <SoonerGryffindor> Ais, I think Fenir is more representative from what we have seen...because of the way they have been treated <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Hi Meg - sorry - late - thought it started at 8 <Lizzieangel90> thanks meg! i was lost for a few seconds <SoonerGryffindor> its a vicious cycle <Accio-Chocolate-Frog> But look at how they attack children. I think that a cure should be a priority. <Aislinn> I don't know that I agree with that sooner <harryfreak359> yeah it should be <Brin> THey don't ALL attack kids. <Aislinn> prejudices are based on that kind of fear <Whisperwing> And yet the people within repressed groups seem just as willing to let other groups be denigrated, it's horrifying to me to hear someone who's Native American making racist comments about other groups like Arabs or blacks.. <eponine244> How many of them will be willing to accept something like that though? It may become a sore point. <Aislinn> and assumption <eponine244> "Why change when we have more power/inspiring fear this way?" <SteffiLynn> I think that a lot of the Wizard prejiduce toward non wizards is to to the persecution they went through centuries ago <harryfreak359> yes i agree ais <Brin> Assumptions are made a lot in this book *** Poet has quit [Bye] <SoonerGryffindor> I just always got the feeling that Lupin was trying to "convert" most of the werewolves *** Poet has joined #lounge <Aislinn> but what other choice have they had, sooner? <kyrane> I have to sleep bye guys <SteffiLynn> I've done a bit of reading on the witchcraft trials and some of the things they were put through were horrible <Brin> He was trying to convert them away from LV <SoonerGryffindor> I know, that's why I said it was a vicious cycle <harryfreak359> bye <Aislinn> they were shunned by wizards and offered acceptance by fenrir <CarpeDiem> ok, see ya kyrane! <Aislinn> bye kyrane <Whisperwing> Rather like Hagrid trying to connect with the giants... and there were a good many who were 'coming around' until the first leader was killed. *** kyrane has quit [Bye] <bitznbats> maybe the werewolve werent on the orders side as only LV seems to give them any respect <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Agree W/W <Aislinn> but that doesn't mean they are all like fenrir <Lizzieangel90> I always thought that Lupin was just trying to "save" the werewolves from the darkness of Fenrir <Accio-Chocolate-Frog> When they change they loose themselves completly there is no humanity left.. *** Synesthesia has joined #lounge <SoonerGryffindor> true, but they haven't been offered many choices <Synesthesia> hello <Aislinn> just like many people, they allow themselves to be led by a more powerful personality <bitznbats> hi <Aislinn> yes lizzie <SoonerGryffindor> thanks to people like Umbridge <harryfreak359> yah sooner <Aislinn> Lupin is offering them another choice <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> too right S/G <Lizzieangel90> yes Ann <SteffiLynn> I personally think umbridge is some kind of half-breed herself <SoonerGryffindor> lol <Synesthesia> ha! <CarpeDiem> It's hard to "convert" or "save" the werewolves because there is nothing for Lupin to "lure" them with. What promises can he make? Many wizarding folk don't approve of werewolves at all. <harryfreak359> LOL <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> good call Steff <Aislinn> which brings us back to choices again - lol <SoonerGryffindor> see? It all connects...lol <Brin> Hey how about a new theme <SteffiLynn> well she's always described as being froglike <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> she is referred to as bull-frog ish <magicmeg8> Madame Maxime reaction to the assumption she was a giant was obviously shock, yet Hagrid wears his heritage proudly. What do you thinkthis reflects in society? *** MotherOfFawks has joined #lounge *** HeleneB has joined #lounge <bitznbats> yeah steph half human half toad <harryfreak359> choices and prejudice are foten connected <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> what mythical creatures are similar? <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> goblins - she's short <Aislinn> I don't know if he wears his proudly, meg <SteffiLynn> i think umbridge would be mortified if anyone found out she was half breed <SoonerGryffindor> poor Hagrid, he really put himself out there with her <Aislinn> he shut himself in his hut for days when it came out <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> goblins have a vicious streak <magicmeg8> Hi helene and Motherof Fawkes -- we're focusing on prejudice in HP at the moment. <Synesthesia> how folks will hide what they are because of just... the stigma of it <Whisperwing> The Wolfsbane potion, it could be mass-marketed and werewolves who stayed on a strict regimen of dosage could surely be given a chance to show that they are safe to be around? <magicmeg8> Hmm. That's true, Ais. I'd forgotten about that. <Brin> HAgrid is an example of how to accept the "dangerous" or "different" <Synesthesia> he never learned to love his giantness until after that whole debockle <Aislinn> again, because of the way giants are treated by the larger wizarding community <SoonerGryffindor> I agree Ais, he doesn't exactly advertise it <harryfreak359> we are showing prejudic right now guys <Aislinn> right whisperwing <HeleneB> Hi! What about the spell that Lockhart refers to in CoS that could get rid of being a werewolf? <magicmeg8> True, Brin -- he sticks up for all the "misunderstood" creatures. <SteffiLynn> even hagrid hid his giant heritage until madaam maxime <Lizzieangel90> Hagrid is proud he is half giant...but honestly he is actually very lucky to be working at hogwarts...if it weren't for dumbledore...who knows where he'd be <Piccolotto649> yeah but he had reason to <Synesthesia> once that evil no good reporter exposed it, then he began to wear it proudly when he realized his friends would stick by him. <HeleneB> Or are there those--like in XMen--who don't feel they need a cure? <Brin> I don;t think he hid This post has been edited by Aislinn: Jun 28 2006, 08:23 AM |
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Jun 28 2006, 02:41 PM
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Chief Cat Herder Posts: 3,514 Joined: 10:28am August 6, 2005 Location: In the Corner Booth - home of the elusive Holy Grain! |
<SoonerGryffindor> that darn Rita Skeeter
<Ginny-From-A-Bottle> correct Brin <Poet> Since giants are supposedly "vicous" maybe there is more prejudice against a woman giant than a man - and Maxime is a Headmaster not just a teacher <Synesthesia> probably miserable and alone, the poor fellow. <Piccolotto649> yeah she's quite the bi*** <Whisperwing> naughty <Piccolotto649> well she is <Synesthesia> Maxime still has great magic skillz unlike a lot of giants and hagrid... <SoonerGryffindor> I agree, Maxine had more to lose with that info getting out <HeleneB> She's horrible but her horribleness is not unique to females. ;) <Synesthesia> i reckon she'd be afraid folks would think she'd eat her children or something <Brin> Rita is our reality check. She says out loud what a lot of people think. She is the Dursleys of the wizarding world <Piccolotto649> yeah hagrid is a bit of an oaf unfortunatly <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> yep - maxime has formidable magical skill <Piccolotto649> but he has a humongous heart *** DorisTLC has quit [Bye] <SteffiLynn> i doubt he isn't proud but it isn't what he thinks that he was worried about but what the parents think <Piccolotto649> and that counts for a lot <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> I'm not so sure Piccolo <Synesthesia> they'd be like OMG you're a giant, you'll eat your students!!!! <Brin> But YES she is ugly in and out <SoonerGryffindor> lol Syn <Piccolotto649> go on ginny <Synesthesia> and she's rather rude in her gossiping too... <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> I don't really think hagrid is an oaf magically <Whisperwing> She did turn out to be quite the trouper when it came to 'roughing it' on the nature trail. <Lizzieangel90> i truely wonder how she became headmistress at a school without people looking into her background <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> a little rusty maybe <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> he's not been allowed to use it <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> but <magicmeg8> Unfortunately, Hagrid's lack of schooling puts him at a disadvantage. He's obviously very knowledgable about CoMC, but he hasn't been taught everything he coudl have. <Synesthesia> probably because she had skillz.... <HeleneB> Are the French wizards more broad minded than the Brits? <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> he had not difficulties casting a pigs tail on dudley <Piccolotto649> ok true oaf is a little extreme but i don't think he has any real skill magically <Synesthesia> so folks ignored the half giant thing <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> or dousing the fire on his house <Whisperwing> Smile for us, Maxime? <Piccolotto649> i think even a 3rd year would be able to take him <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> I just think he's out of practise <Piccolotto649> true <Synesthesia> probably... as he has a 3rd year education <magicmeg8> Do you think the fact that Hagrid is half-giant influenced the degree of his punishment while in school? <SoonerGryffindor> nah, the spells just bounce off of him <Accio-Chocolate-Frog> Well good thing he has tough skin. <Lizzieangel90> welll...she was truely shocked when Hagrid assumed she was a giant...it may be a "taboo": thing everywhere <Piccolotto649> yeah but he never got a full education *** HeleneB has quit [Bye] <Synesthesia> poor fellow. nearly 50 years of no magic. <SteffiLynn> i think the french are to a certain extent i mean Fluer is quite proud to have veela blood in her line <Piccolotto649> and that counts for a lot <Trozam> Picco, before you say that remember that he faces off 4 aurors and Umbridge in a fight, and got out without being hurt. <Aislinn> that's an interesting question meg <Synesthesia> except forbidden magic <SoonerGryffindor> I wonder how many knw about it Meg? *** severouslyobsessed has joined #lounge <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> And...didn't he cast the spell on dudley without uttering it? <Whisperwing> His wand was broken because of the Chamber being opened in his third year so he's working with a faulty tool. <Aislinn> I think it may have played a part <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> or am I just getting that from the movie <Synesthesia> he has giant blood <Piccolotto649> yeah i believe you're right <SoonerGryffindor> I think it played a part if they knew about it <Piccolotto649> i wonder how that happened <Synesthesia> it makes him immune to certain sorts of spells <Synesthesia> like stunning. <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> That's advanced spellcasting <SteffiLynn> i also think the type of mix plays a part in whether or not a person is accepted <CarpeDiem> Meg, good question! I'm sure he came to Hogwarts with much contreversy and probably had to walk a very thin line. Much like Lupin when he came to teach. <Aislinn> that's true, sooner. we don't know if they knew <Piccolotto649> i don't think Jo had that this far ahead into the books for non verbal spells <Whisperwing> But Trozam, it was his giant blood that protected him in the showdown with the Aurors, magical resistance like dragons. <Piccolotto649> that = thought <Synesthesia> keeps him from getting stunned <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> correct W/W <SteffiLynn> giants, werewolves, both have negative connotations <Trozam> However, it would make it harder for a 3rd year to really hurt him. <Lizzieangel90> I think the influence of Dumbledore protected Hagrid from the worst possible punnishment <Synesthesia> they equal violence and distruction, but not all are like that, which is what wizards of the world do not get. <Whisperwing> WHat aboout the centaurs, what about their prejudices against humans? <Brin> anything not wizard has a bad connotation <Synesthesia> they have pride... <harryfreak359> a lot of pride <Lizzieangel90> and dumbledore kept hagrid around and made him keeper of the keys and then a teacher <Piccolotto649> they prejudice human becasue human prejudice them <Synesthesia> like some sort of tribe on the margins has to have as much pride as possible to insulate themselves <Piccolotto649> they have no prejudice to other creature that we know of <Piccolotto649> just humans <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> It speaks volumes that DD trusted Hagrid with his life <Whisperwing> WIzards in particular <harryfreak359> b/c of people like umburdge <Synesthesia> humans oppress them, so they oppress back... <Piccolotto649> yep <Aislinn> Do you think it is prejudice, whisperwing, or just a desire to be self sufficient <eponine244> Centaurs take the "you don't really like us, so we're going to be extreme and declare ourselves superior." attitude <Aislinn> ? <Piccolotto649> wizard mainly becasue they;re the only one they have contact with <Synesthesia> and they go on about their superiority <Synesthesia> even Frienze does it... <Piccolotto649> so muggles i suppose they may be more leniant with <Poet> Centaurs appear to feel above all creatures though. <bitznbats> I think with the cenataurs that wizards tried to class them as non-human intelligence which they were really offended by <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Yes Poet <Aislinn> I agree bitznbats <Synesthesia> they do not want to be slaves to humans like the elves are. <Synesthesia> goblins come to mind <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> There's a snobbishness about them <Aislinn> they seem very proud and quick to offend <Piccolotto649> that cus we're seeing it from a wizards point of vierw (through harry) *** tbunny has joined #lounge <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> sense of superiority <SoonerGryffindor> I wonder about the goblins <Accio-Chocolate-Frog> Well then...is thier a higherarchy? <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> S/G - I think it's hinted at that they have a vicious streak <Piccolotto649> i would generally say wizards are oin the top <Aislinn> what do you mean, accio? <eponine244> It almost seems like the centaure created the predjudice against them by being superiour in their attitudes. <Piccolotto649> and then it's goblins and centour after them <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> hence why they're so good at banking <Synesthesia> yes, they are not to mess with, goblins... <harryfreak359> i think goblins feel prejudice against huiams <MotherOfFawks> The "high-and-mighty" centaurs would be really dangerous if they didn't also have a thing about not getting involved. <Synesthesia> but, huamsn will still oppress them anyway, which is why they fought back so strongly in the past <harryfreak359> instead of the other way around <Aislinn> the wizards want to place themselves on top piccolotta <Lizzieangel90> accio...do you mean different "classes" of people.. like in midevil times? <CarpeDiem> Accio, the higherarchey is generally made up by whoever is in control. Since there are more humans they make the laws and the stereotypes. <Synesthesia> eespecially pure blood types *** michpotter has joined #lounge *** Tanaqui has joined #lounge <Whisperwing> Even FIrenze, while he's teaching Divination, unintentionally casts apersions on the students' abilities to properly comprehend his instructions because of the limitations of the human mind. What's he got to benefit from maintaining the prejudices of his people when his own people have reviled him and cast him out for his association with humans? <Aislinn> hi guys! <Synesthesia> pure blood types want to be above everyone. <magicmeg8> Good point, Carpe <SteffiLynn> we don't neccesarily know that there are more humans <Poet> Goblins consider themselves clever and I would imagine they feel a prejudice toward their own race as well? <LJ> hey <Piccolotto649> yo LJ <Synesthesia> hi <SteffiLynn> goblins seem to be money crazy <magicmeg8> Hey, Mich and Tanaqui -- we're discussing prejudice in HP at the moment, particularly against centaurs/goblins/elves. <Aislinn> we don't know a lot about the goblins, except we hear a lot about goblin wars in History of Magic *** Whisperwing has quit [Bye] <Piccolotto649> yeah <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Yes - greedy like the dwarves <Tanaqui> thanks! <Piccolotto649> they can take care of themselves <Synesthesia> i imagine the goblins have sharp weapons <Synesthesia> lots of them... <Piccolotto649> lol <Synesthesia> that they carry around and they'll jump on wizards and cut them a lot <SteffiLynn> they also seem to have some type of magic of their own <Piccolotto649> i think it's more magic *** severouslyobsessed has quit [Bye] <Synesthesia> so that keeps wizards in line... and magic too <Aislinn> Let's shift gears to another theme <Synesthesia> and they control and make the money <Aislinn> In all your books, the continuing theme is that people are not what they appear to be. Sometimes they seem dangerous, and are good. Sometimes helpful people are bad. It looks like Harry is being taught to overlook first impressions and to be suspicious of people. Do you think that's something kids need to learn more than other generations? <harryfreak359> k <Synesthesia> indeed <SoonerGryffindor> Lockhart <Aislinn> this was a question from an interviewer to JKR <Synesthesia> especially nowadays with that first impression concept <Synesthesia> which just isn't completely logical... *** kadi has joined #lounge *** Brin has quit [Bye] <Synesthesia> people, children and adults need to learn to look deeper. <Piccolotto649> what was her answer? <Synesthesia> that's what dumbledore is about <SoonerGryffindor> there's a good case of don't judge a book by the cover <Synesthesia> looking deeper. <harryfreak359> sometimes first impressions are correst though <MotherOfFawks> Dumbledore is not about being suspicious though. <Synesthesia> accepting differences, giving people second chances, looking at the whole picture. <Aislinn> Rowling: You're right, this is a recurring theme in the books. People are endlessly surprising. It's a very jaded person who thinks they've seen every possible nuance of human nature. <eponine244> First impressions are important to some extent, but you have to combine that with a deeper knowledge <harryfreak359> yes <Aislinn> JKR:Sometimes I get asked 'What would be your recipe for a happier life?' And I've always said 'A bit more tolerance from all of us.' <Synesthesia> indeed. you have to completely try to understand people. <Tanaqui> i know my past was riddled with bad first impressions because i was shy...so i do think harry learning that lesson is a great <Synesthesia> and not be completely naive of course <SoonerGryffindor> Look at the the attractiveness of Tom RIddle and Gilderoy Lockhart--just goes to show that you have to look deeper <SteffiLynn> well i think it's hard. u have to teach kids to love everyone but to also be cautious. people aren't always what they appear to be but you can't treat them badly <Synesthesia> dumbledore is wise and compassionate, but he's not really naive. <Lizzieangel90> Kids need to look past first impression now a days to be safe..its just soooo tearifying the people out there in the world who first seem nice, but are very bad people. Its first a safety thing <Synesthesia> he was suspicious of Tom Riddle despite his handsomeness after all. <Tanaqui> and the first impression of hermione--she's turned out to be very loyal to harry, etc. <eponine244> Sometimes, it's intuition. <Aislinn> I think this ties into the prejudice theme, as she seems to be saying to embrace what is different about people <harryfreak359> yes lizzie <MotherOfFawks> But it is so true that parents are EXPECTED to teach their children to suspect--even fear strangers--and how is that going to lead to further tolerance? <Synesthesia> indeed. it is important to do that. <SoonerGryffindor> I wonder what it means that Snape is portrayed as so unattractive? <harryfreak359> hmm, that hesGOOD! <Synesthesia> well, when folks are young, they have to be a bit suspicious of strangers with the world we live in... <Aislinn> that's a good point mother of fawks *** Chaser_133 has joined #lounge <Synesthesia> now peers on the other hand... *** michpotter has quit [Bye] <Synesthesia> making fun of other children because of their differences <Tanaqui> i think snape may be putting forth a bad impression on purpose... <SoonerGryffindor> lol harryfreak <eponine244> He's obviously more closely scrutinized because of that, Sooner. <Synesthesia> that is just wrong... adults on the other hand <Synesthesia> you got to be careful with them... <Aislinn> but I don't think parents teach children to feel this way about other kids <CarpeDiem> How old does a child need to be to realize these lessons though? At what point can they grasp the fact that this "werewolf "may not be the same as the others that have scared me before? <Synesthesia> kids some to just... learn stuff like that on their own... <SoonerGryffindor> so I wonder whre JKR is leading us here? <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Age of reason = 7 years old *** Chaser_133 has quit [Bye] <Aislinn> One way to learn tolerance is to take the time to really understand other people's motives. Yes, you're right. Harry is often given an erroneous first impression of someone and he has to learn to look beneath the surface. When you look beneath the surface he has sometimes found that he is being fooled by people. And on other occasions he has found very nice surprises. <Tanaqui> mmmmm...i think it's different for each child and the experiences they've had <Synesthesia> kids have got to learn to be careful without being completely hateful. <Aislinn> that was the last bit from her response *** danae24 has joined #lounge <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Correct Tanaqui <Aislinn> JKR's words, not mine <SoonerGryffindor> My 8 year old daughter has just started reading HP, and she already hates the Durlseys <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> I have seen 5 year olds with more sense than 15 yr odls <Synesthesia> JKR really gets it... <Lizzieangel90> children tend to think how their parents think about different issues...until they are old enough to form their own opinion, their views may be very crowded <Tanaqui> for example, harry's had a good experience with a werewolf <kadi> good point lizzie <Synesthesia> it was like that with me as a kid. <kadi> new color biggrin <Tanaqui> another child may not have even seen a werewolf, but only been told stories <MotherOfFawks> Supervision. Kids don't have judgement when we're talking about predators. Supervision is better than conditioning them to fear. <Synesthesia> my relatives had their prejuidices. it took me years to shake them away from me. <Aislinn> which is why its so important for parents to teach this tolerance to their kids lizzie <Lizzieangel90> sorry...not crowded... clouded** <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Good for you Syn <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> *off topic - but had to say it* <Aislinn> lol <kadi> many times it is just something someone has to experience for themselves-- till you know what it feels like to be prejudiced you really can't empathize or learn from it <Synesthesia> thanks... <danae24> It's better to let children get their own points of view on those kinds of topics......... <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Too right Kadi <magicmeg8> We see what happens to someone like Dudley, whose parents are afraid of everything unlike them -- he's a good example of the product of intolerance. <Tanaqui> oooo--dursleys, now there's a family that has some prejudices...was that because of first impressions? <Aislinn> to be prejudiced, or to have someone be prejudiced against you, kadi? <kadi> me too synesthesia! <SoonerGryffindor> which is probably one reason why Harry is so good about not being prejudiced <Synesthesia> they had all sorts of prejuices towards haitans or something like that... or other religions... but i shook them. *** Poet has quit [Bye] <kadi> not always aislinn but many times that's how we learn *** Poet has joined #lounge <kadi> and be doers not just sayers <Aislinn> good point meg <Synesthesia> Harry has been picked on a lot <SteffiLynn> well i don't kow it really depends on the kid i nannied for a woman who taught her son it was wrond to be <censored> and she was a lesbian and even though she showed a prejiduce to gays he really didn't have a problem with it <Synesthesia> so he's a bit more compassionate in a way for it <SteffiLynn> and he was5 <Synesthesia> and they disliked gayness too -_- <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> lol <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> interesting and odd <Lizzieangel90> to be honest...everyone has some kind of prejudice....its not just racial or species... its the way society works <SteffiLynn> ridiculous she was teaching her child to hate her and he wouldn't do it!!! <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Unfortunately, you're right to a point L/A - you see it everywhere <Tanaqui> and in some ways, sticking to a point of view may make you *look* prejudiced, even if you're not <SteffiLynn> same applies in the wizarding world <Aislinn> that's true, lizzie, but I think if we try to recognize it in ourselves, we can keep it to a dull roar <danae24> I guess the hatred that the Dursleys exorted towards Harry help him be open minded....... the oportunity to be diferent from them....... <eponine244> I think what's hardest, and what Harry has to work on is learning to be kind to those that he doesn't agree with or think are right. <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> If it's not racial bias it's religious or something else <SteffiLynn> exactly Dursley taught hate but harry learned love *** Piccolotto649 has quit [Bye] <MotherOfFawks> Ciao! <Synesthesia> indeed, but he will never tolerate snape <Lizzieangel90> yes... i agree ann <Tanaqui> so harry's open minded about the dursleys? (devil) <Synesthesia> even if he knew snapes entire story *** MotherOfFawks has quit [Bye] <Synesthesia> not quite like dumbledore who doesn't have to know the whole story to be compassionate at least <kadi> harry is probably the exception to the rule <SteffiLynn> i don't think harry hates them not like they hate him <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> no - Harry is as biased with the Dursleys as they are with him <Aislinn> I think that Harry is realistic about the Dursleys <Lizzieangel90> i will be back in 15 minutes everyone... must go finish cleaning! byebye... this is soo much fun! smile *** danae24 has quit [Bye] <Synesthesia> yug. cleaning <Aislinn> bye lizzie <Synesthesia> harry dislikes them bcause they were cruel to him... <SteffiLynn> i mean he saved Dudley <CarpeDiem> There is a difference between caution from poor past expereinces and all out prejudiceness. Harry could be very bitter toward those around him because of the way he was raised. The same with Lupin and his tollerance of those that treat him poorly. <Synesthesia> it's their own fault. <Synesthesia> but they were not very grateful *** Lizzieangel90 has quit [Bye] <kadi> usually kids treated like him end up with some severe emotional disabilities <Synesthesia> they were like, you put him in danger in the first place. <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Correct CD <SteffiLynn> well i think harry does have some severe emotional problems <Synesthesia> *thinks suddenly of lupin's compassion and sweetness* <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Everyone is conditioned by their environment <Aislinn> Prejudice is not based on facts - past experience is facts that true perceptions can be based on <Synesthesia> he's cool the way dumbledore was.... <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> It takes a strong individual to be able to rise out of these conditions <Synesthesia> always warm and pleasant despite how much his life sucks. the poor guy is quite poor <Tanaqui> is harry prejudiced agains slytherins? (devil) <SteffiLynn> he thinks he has to do everything alone <harryfreak359> yes <Synesthesia> indeed... he dislikes them... <SteffiLynn> no <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> I believe he is Tanaqui <Synesthesia> they are everything he really isn't in a way <SoonerGryffindor> does anybody think that Harry needs to forgive Voldemort to succeed? <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> At best he's neutral <Synesthesia> but he'd still feel sorry for them in the right circumstance. <SteffiLynn> i don't think he is prejudiced against all slytherin <Synesthesia> like he felt sorry for malfoy <Poet> I think so Tanqui - Harry has some prejudices still to overcome <Synesthesia> but not for snape <SteffiLynn> not after slughorn <CarpeDiem> Tan, I think he's had a LOT of bad experiences with them. I think he would be cautious but not prejudice. <Synesthesia> he just hates evil *** Lizzieangel90 has joined #lounge <harryfreak359> yeah <Synesthesia> or people who follow the crowd and don't use their internal morality the way he does. <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Yes - syn - and that in itself is a bias <Lizzieangel90> ok...nope...i can't stay away <Tanaqui> okay, great answers, thanks! <Synesthesia> good as cleaning is no fun <Synesthesia> otherwise i'd have it done now <kadi> maybe if the book ever mentioned some decent slytherins he wouldn't be-- but he is so inclined because that's mostly the case <eponine244> In PS, Harry mentions that he thinks the Slyth. look mean maybe because someone told him they wre a "bad lot" <harryfreak359> lol <CarpeDiem> It's hard to say though because Harry is not your typical hero...he makes mistakes!! smile <Lizzieangel90> i have to do it later...but i want to stay here... whats the new theme? <harryfreak359> lots of mistakes <Aislinn> One of the themes I've seen mentioned a lot in the Lounge is the theme of redemption. Do people think that redemption is an important theme of HP? <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> I don't think anyone can claim to be unbiased about at least one thing whether that thing is deemed to be good or bad <Tanaqui> oo, so most of the wizarding world is prejudiced against slytherin? <Poet> Sooner - I have a hunch that forgiveness is an important them in the books. I wonder if at age 17 Harry has the maturity to forgive though. <Synesthesia> yes. it's an excellent theme. <SoonerGryffindor> me too Poet <magicmeg8> It seems like what goes around comes around in HP, Ais. <Synesthesia> about how imperfect people are, but they still can go to the right side. <Tanaqui> yep--dd tried to redeem tom, but couldn't find the goodness in him <Aislinn> have we actually seen any acts of redemption yet? <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Yes - both Aislinn and Poet - forgiveness - redemption - both important themes <kadi> it does megs <Synesthesia> they still can redeem themselves and become good <Poet> We are all rooting for the Weasleys to be redeemed from their poverty ;) <Synesthesia> look at snape saving harry despite his hatred. <Synesthesia> that does take quite a bit of courage in a way. <SoonerGryffindor> maybe if we knew why DD trusted Snape <SteffiLynn> yes i think redemption will play a seious role in the series as well as forgiveness <Aislinn> lol poet! <magicmeg8> For instance, when Draco was taunting Harry in GoF, he was then humiliated by being turned into a ferret. <Synesthesia> *would love for the weasleys to get rich* <SteffiLynn> do you think harry could forgive voldemort? <kadi> sirius redeemed himself to harry/DD etc *** Belenzie has quit [Bye] <Synesthesia> i doubt it <harryfreak359> NO!\ <Synesthesia> voldermort has been too evil <Synesthesia> killing people <Tanaqui> i don't think harry can forgive within the span of the series <Synesthesia> ruining people's lives <Tanaqui> maybe when he's older <Synesthesia> now malfoy. he's just wacked <SteffiLynn> I think if he had to he could *** Belenzie has joined #lounge <SoonerGryffindor> I think Harry may have to Tan <Aislinn> redemption though is the act of the person who has sinned or wronged another, not the consequences for their actions <Synesthesia> insane parents going on about purebloodedness every day. <Synesthesia> and once he cut him into pieces he freaked out <SteffiLynn> he already showed sympathy toward him in OotP <CarpeDiem> Harry seemed to forgive Peter, who was just as closely tied to his parent's death. It's hard to say if he qould forgive voldemort. <Synesthesia> when he was a child and his mother died. <eponine244> If harry feels different about anyone, I think it will be pity, not forgiveness. <Aislinn> I'm still waiting to see a "bad" character make a redemptive act <Poet> I think that there are several people who need to be redeemed for us to feel a certain closure at the end of book 7. Whether all of those people are redeemed or not is yet to be seen. <harryfreak359> Harry didnt forgive peter <Trozam> And there is a marked difference between forgiving what someone did, and forgetting the actions. <Synesthesia> he did save him <Poet> Percy, Peter P., Snape, Tom Riddle <Synesthesia> but did not forgive. <SteffiLynn> i believe he will <Synesthesia> so that bond will come into play <SoonerGryffindor> I agree with your list Poet <kadi> what about RAB-- he was redeemed *** pinklaura has joined #lounge <kadi> or she biggrin <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Yes - seems to be kadi <Aislinn> yes, I agree with that list as well <SoonerGryffindor> I think so kadi <magicmeg8> It seems that we have a lot of people that COULD redeem themselves but haven't <LJ> good point Kadi <Aislinn> yeah, that one is possible kadi <Synesthesia> malfoy for example... <Synesthesia> he could have gone to the right side <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Will Draco redeem himself? <SteffiLynn> i think if anyone that has harmed harry tried in earnest to redeem themselves that harry will forgive <Poet> Good one kadi <magicmeg8> However, Slughorn did redeem/prove himself by pushing away his pride and dgiving Harry his Horcrux memory. <SoonerGryffindor> Honestly, I hope Draco doesn't <Synesthesia> that's why dumble door was begging him so much in a dignified way <Aislinn> yes steffi <CarpeDiem> Poet, could we add the Dursleys to that list? Do they need to be redeemed in some fashion? <Aislinn> that's a good one too meg <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Agree CD <SteffiLynn> the ultimate expression of LOVE is to FORGIVE! <Aislinn> yes carpe - they have definitely wronged Harry! <eponine244> Someone has to admit that they were wrong in order to gain redemption, and I don't know if some of these characters will be humble enough to do that. <Synesthesia> if they could just... ask harry's forgiveness for treating him like steaming dog droppings his whole life <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Not so sure about Vernon or Dudley but petunia most definitely <Synesthesia> and never seeing the good kid he was. <SteffiLynn> you never know harry's forgiveness of LV might be what finishes him off <harryfreak359> there are something people cant forgive <Aislinn> agreed eponine <magicmeg8> LoL, good point Steffi -- and that's an imporatn part in the books. <harryfreak359> it is what makes us human <kadi> peter was redeemed in voldemort's eyes <Poet> Yes Carpe ! Petunia at least needs to be redeemed I think. *** Ameena has joined #lounge *** Synesthesia has quit [Bye] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> hmmm - not so sure kadi <Aislinn> Harry can still choose to forgive any of them, but they need to seek their own redemption <SoonerGryffindor> I agree Ais *** Synesthesia has joined #lounge <magicmeg8> Hey Julie, we're talking about themes in HP, particularly redemption and examples of it. <kadi> well...he's still a git-- but he came back to him <Synesthesia> i despise this computer and will not miss it. <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> I think V will hold something over on PP as long as he's alive <SteffiLynn> that is true a person doesn't have to seek redemption for you to forgive <eponine244> Exactly. Hary can't redeem them. THey have to lose their pride. <Synesthesia> forgiving voldermort is a tall order... *** Ameena left #lounge [] <Synesthesia> now the dursleys, <Synesthesia> humans like him... <Synesthesia> who are just caught up in their prejudices and feelings of middle class superiority.. <SoonerGryffindor> I think Petunia will do something to earn her redemption <SteffiLynn> it is indeed <Synesthesia> perhaps he can open his heart to them <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> I think Vernon is just plain ignorant *** Tanaqui left #lounge [] <eponine244> But Harry can forgive people who dont' think they need it. It=love, Harry's power <Lizzieangel90> I honestly don't think Harry will ever truely forgive voldemort...just give him what he truely deserves <pinklaura> i don't know if harry will forgive voldemort, but possibly acknowledge voldemort's humanity <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> He chooses not to understand those that are different <pinklaura> (sorry, got here late) <Synesthesia> perhaps petunia can learn to value her nephew instead of just letting vernon tear him down. <kadi> i don't think he has to forgive him-- i just think he has to be apathetic to him-- and not acknowledge him having any power over his emotions at all <Synesthesia> but voldermort isn't human anymore <Poet> I'm not sure I agree that admitting is necessary, but one act or a series of acts that overcome whatever anger or prejudice we have left against that person after whatever length of time has passed - redemption being a way to speed up the "time heals all wounds" <SteffiLynn> but think about this a person who is abused or has a loved one murdered still feels trapped by the person that did it to them long after that person is dead if they don't forgive <SoonerGryffindor> Actually, I think part of Harry already pities him <Synesthesia> he merely is a killing machine, who kills for his own immorality <harryfreak359> i agree sooner <pinklaura> i agree, sooner <Synesthesia> and will never know the pain and beauty of love <Synesthesia> poor him <SteffiLynn> even if harry kill LV he is going to have to forgive him <SoonerGryffindor> and the part that pities him may open the door for other emotions besides anger to come through <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Agree with this S/G Actually, I think part of Harry already pities him <CarpeDiem> I think Harry will realize at some point that Voldemort is truly alone while Harry, because of his ability to love and be loved, is surronded by all he needs to defeat LV. <kadi> why steffi? <Synesthesia> indeed <Synesthesia> his two close friends <SteffiLynn> because he will never be at peace until he forgives him <Synesthesia> even his dead parents protect him. <harryfreak359> I agree CD <Synesthesia> voldermort never had that or wanted that. <SoonerGryffindor> which is even more reason to pity him <Synesthesia> Harry even has the love of Ginny... <Aislinn> rats - this chat is going by too fast! There is one other theme that JKR has said is central to her books, and that is the theme of death. What do you think she is telling us with the deaths in her books? <Synesthesia> but I doubt voldermort ever opened his hear. <Synesthesia> heart <Synesthesia> she's saying that death is a part of life, the next adventure <SteffiLynn> maybe i'm taking too much of a theological approach but i think forgiveness will be a key <Synesthesia> and nothing to fear the way voldermort fears it <kadi> that life is but a vapor-- it comes harder and faster than you can ever imagine <CarpeDiem> Aislinn, I think she's telling us to never get to attached to one character sad <Synesthesia> he fears it so much he wants to kill to preserve his meaningless life <SoonerGryffindor> I know that JKR has said that her greatest fear is losing a loved one <Lizzieangel90> that death can sometimes be the only thing that can give you the strength to do what you have to do <Synesthesia> not like dumbledore who sacrifices himself for all he loves. <Aislinn> ooh - so sad, carpe <Synesthesia> at least that is how i see it. <magicmeg8> Good point, Kadi -- it seems very mysterious in the series <Synesthesia> and Sirius does the same <Aislinn> she has said that she is trying to show the sudden brutality of death <kadi> sooner-- didn't she write about losing sirius when she lost her own mother? <Synesthesia> puts himself right on the line for Harry. <Aislinn> and how evil it is to take a life <SoonerGryffindor> actually, she lost her mother before the first book <Aislinn> no, it was earlier <Aislinn> right sooner <Synesthesia> it's cruel, it's sudden, but it's a part of the pattern and there's no reason to go through the lengths that voldermort goes through *** KimmyBlair has joined #lounge <pinklaura> i think we see the suddenness of death, but also that death isn't the worst thing in the world... <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> The worst sort of evil Aislinn <kadi> i think i read a interview though-- where she put her own feelings into harry about that <Aislinn> right, g-f-a-b <eponine244> She emphasises the nobility of sacrificing oneself for the life of another repeatedly. <SoonerGryffindor> There are worse things than death--Albus Dumbledore <Synesthesia> yes, harry's mom <Synesthesia> dumbledore, sirius.... <CarpeDiem> The deaths that she has shown us have always been quick and sudden. Most did not see it coming. Perhaps we are being told to cherish those around us? <magicmeg8> Also, I think, of course, particular attention is paid to how others' deaths affect the characters -- ex. lily's sacrifice give harry a tangible protection <Aislinn> yes - it was about the Mirror of Erised kadi <Aislinn> that's a good point meg <kadi> lol ahhh <kadi> biggrin.gif <magicmeg8> why, thank you ann biggrin <kadi> thanks <Lizzieangel90> good point meg *** Poet has quit [Bye] *** Poet has joined #lounge <magicmeg8> So, death is a very real, complete thing in the series, imo <Aislinn> smile <magicmeg8> though we see the effects of it. <CarpeDiem> As an aside, it has always bothered me that Harry never seemed to tryly grieve for Sirius' death. <Synesthesia> he did though <kadi> also that it happens-- and we have to keep living <Synesthesia> he was in agony. <Aislinn> yes, carpe, that bothered me some too <Synesthesia> pure utter agony. <Lizzieangel90> sometimes bad things ie. death have to happen for good ie. life to fully happen <pinklaura> but also, we have things like the veil and luna believing in an afterlife, so maybe death isn't so final, meg? <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> I think with Harry - this is his first real loss - he doesn't really know how to cope <Synesthesia> and through the summer there was the fear of voldermort taking over *** eponine244 has quit [Bye] <Aislinn> that's true synesthesia <KimmyBlair> I think Harry's grief for Sirius was to not grive *** eponine244 has joined #lounge <Synesthesia> and not to mention the pile on pain of losing cedric and then his father older brother figure. <magicmeg8> True, Laura -- but i think i mean in the sense that characters aren't coming back -- or it doesn't seem that they will <Synesthesia> there wasn't even a funeral either. <KimmyBlair> he went through it all with cedric <Aislinn> he seems to channel it into his quest against LV <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Harry experiences a lot of confusion, denial <Synesthesia> plus there were hormones to consider too <eponine244> Jo hasn't ever cheapened death or its effects. <harryfreak359> it made him stronger <Poet> I am facinated by the theme of death in the books. The Black family elves for instance get their heads on the wall after they die. Others get their portraits to help others remember them <SteffiLynn> i always wondered if wizards had like religion in the muggle sense of it. i mean they celebrate christmas? <Synesthesia> rage, anger, just laying there not moving... <Aislinn> Unfortunately, we only have 15 minutes left sad <pinklaura> that's true, meg :-) <Synesthesia> aw <SteffiLynn> :'( <Lizzieangel90> people dying that are close to harry...it seems to give him the fuel to get closer to killing voldemort...almost like the deaths really need to happen *** bitznbats has quit [Bye] <harryfreak359> yeah too bad <eponine244> And I have to go close, seeing as I'm at work. I'll talk to you all later. Bye! <Synesthesia> i got to eat dinner <Aislinn> bye eponine! <harryfreak359> bye <SteffiLynn> bye <kadi> plot wise all the deaths served a purpose lizzie <KimmyBlair> I think the deaths make Harry realize he has to fight Voldie sooner than latter <KimmyBlair> the longer he waits <Aislinn> agreed, kadi *** eponine244 has quit [Bye] <Lizzieangel90> yes <KimmyBlair> the more people who die close to him <magicmeg8> Good point, Lizzie -- he's a constant reminder of the reality of daeth. <Synesthesia> indeed <SteffiLynn> even cedrics? <magicmeg8> or death. lol <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Good observation KB *** Accio-Chocolate-Frog has quit [Bye] *** bitznbats has joined #lounge <pinklaura> well, kadi, it seems harry has been set up to "avenge" those deaths. <SoonerGryffindor> I agree Kimmy *** tbunny has quit [Bye] <Synesthesia> before he loses more people, suddenly like that. <SteffiLynn> what point was their in his death <Synesthesia> or even at school hearing about these other deaths or at home <Trozam> It was the intial shot, the first pain from Lord V's return. <Lizzieangel90> if you doesn't do something to stop voldemort...more people will die... he is inspired to fight even harder <harryfreak359> to make him storonger to fight LV <kadi> or proceed alone <KimmyBlair> he knows he is the only one who can top it <magicmeg8> (Oh, hey kimmy) <Aislinn> JKR talks about the purpose of Cedric's death: Death is an extremely important theme throughout all seven books. I would say possibly the most important theme. If you are writing about Evil, which I am, and if you are writing about someone who is essentially a psychopath, you have a duty to show the real evil of taking human life <Lizzieangel90> he* not you..sorry <KimmyBlair> (yes mwegs) <Poet> Of course the deaths allow Harry to fight his own fight while still having the influence of the dead to be a guide to him - his parents in the graveyard....Dumbledore's portrait. Sirius's house as a place of refuge *** Tanaqui has joined #lounge <Synesthesia> especially as random as cedric's death was... shcking. the movie didn't begin to cover that enough <Aislinn> right Poet <Poet> I agree Lizzie - Harry HAD to stop Voldemort and he knows it <CarpeDiem> Good point Poet <KimmyBlair> I think if the first person to die had been someone VERY important to Harry like Sirius, instead of Cedric who was just an aquantance Harry would of never gotten over it <Aislinn> that's an interesting point kimmy <kadi> it bothered me much more in the movie than in the books kimmy <harryfreak359> remember what harry says after sisirus's death? <KimmyBlair> as we grow up the people who we often see die are those further away from us... <SteffiLynn> yea me to but i think that's because i could see it <harryfreak359> in the sixth book to DD <KimmyBlair> and then later in life those closer <SteffiLynn> DD had me in tears for hours <KimmyBlair> we need those further away to die first so we can learn how to process death <Aislinn> me too steffi <KimmyBlair> if you start right away with those close you just can't process it and can get lost in grief <Aislinn> and still anytime I read it again <Lizzieangel90> i agree kimmy... i learned the other way about death... but very good point <SteffiLynn> me too <SoonerGryffindor> even though Harry was an orphan, death was still an abstract concept to him..he had to see it up close and personal <KimmyBlair> awww <KimmyBlair> yeah <kadi> i don't think you can ever really process death kimmy-- no matter how many funerals you go to -- when a truly loved one dies-- your going to go to pieces <Aislinn> that's a good point sooner <KimmyBlair> his parents have died (which are people very close to him) <SteffiLynn> yea me too the person that died first in my life happened to be in my dining room <Synesthesia> yeah. <KimmyBlair> but he was so young he didn't process it <Aislinn> it became more real and personal <Synesthesia> especially when you don't deal with it completely in a way... <KimmyBlair> yeah <Synesthesia> *Still has not gotten over losing my grandmother or jan* <Lizzieangel90> you go to pieces..you just got to learn to put them all together again..and they are not going to go back the same way <Synesthesia> i'm sorry steffie... <KimmyBlair> Harry didn't probably proplery deal with his parents loss until at least Cedric died <Synesthesia> *thinks of voldermort tearing his soul apart* <KimmyBlair> which could of lead to his :angsty: faze in OOtP *** Belenzie has quit [Bye] <kadi> time, distraction, being surrounded by loved ones (and for some people prayer) are really the only things that can console or help with dealing with death <SoonerGryffindor> well, that and hormones....lol *** Poet has quit [Bye] <Tanaqui> harry also had to deal with discovering the *real* way his parents died... <pinklaura> i don't think harry has totally gotten over his parents death...i mean, in the first book he desires to be with them in the mirror of erised <SteffiLynn> ty syn was a long time ago but it was my first real experience so i can see the point made earlier <Synesthesia> he was in shock when it happened and had time to process it more. <Aislinn> OK, with just over five minutes left, do people have final thoughts on the various themes we've discussed? <Synesthesia> it's pat of him all the time, losing them. <Synesthesia> i think it;'s cool the way JKR gets it! <KimmyBlair> I like that Jo doens't cheapen death <Synesthesia> she understands this important interesting fact of life, and it's why i love reading those books so much <KimmyBlair> that once your dead your dead <SteffiLynn> i don't think harry ever had a chance to really grieve his parents i mean it was a closed subject with the dursleys <Synesthesia> even when they make me get all weapy... <kadi> and seeing his parents in the mirror-- and hearing them with the dementors-- he secretly wanted to keep hearing them <Synesthesia> like the way the 7th book will make me. <SoonerGryffindor> I love the way that JKR puts them out there and lets us really think hard about them <CarpeDiem> Agreed Synesthesia, it's amazing how these separate themes seem to weave back and foth to create an amazing set of stories! <Aislinn> me too sooner <harryfreak359> yeah <Synesthesia> about prejudice, death, everything. i love that. <Tanaqui> when you stop and think about everything harry's had to deal with, it's amazing he's still a pretty good kid <Synesthesia> good stories = life's blood <LJ> good point <Aislinn> there are so many great themes and messages that are so subtly included in the books <Synesthesia> like what dumbledore said about him. <SoonerGryffindor> okay, I gotta go feed my kids now. See y'all later <Synesthesia> and his soul being whole even after being shattered by death. <Synesthesia> i got to feed me... and this rabbit <harryfreak359> bye sooner <SteffiLynn> i honestly believe that even though the dementors brought back the sounds of their death hearing the love that they had for him is what help him to produce such a strong patronus <Aislinn> bye sooner! *** SoonerGryffindor has quit [Bye] <Lizzieangel90> JKR is truely a mastermind and masterfully intertwines the many themes that are found in real life and literature and brings them to terms we can understand and analyze <KimmyBlair> Bye everyone! <KimmyBlair> nice chat! <Synesthesia> yeah ^^ <Synesthesia> so true! <harryfreak359> bye *** LacewingFlies has joined #lounge <Aislinn> great contribution everyone! <SteffiLynn> bye <LacewingFlies> oh <harryfreak359> yes i think we are a very wise bunch here <LacewingFlies> just realised I popped in quick enough to say bye <kadi> yes! lovely smile bye guys have a good night! <Synesthesia> now to eat pineapple <Synesthesia> great talk *** kadi has quit [Bye] *** pinklaura left #lounge [] *** LacewingFlies has quit [Bye] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> bye everyone! <KimmyBlair> bye! <harryfreak359> bye ginny <SteffiLynn> it's so wonderful to have ppl who i can talk to about this that don't think i'm nuts <KimmyBlair> hahaha <Synesthesia> yeah ^^ *** Ginny-From-A-Bottle left #lounge [] <SteffiLynn> !!! thanks everyone!!! <Aislinn> Thanks for joining in the chat! Just a reminder that this topic will be continuing over in the Study Hall of the Chamber of Chat, which can be found at http://www.chamberofchat.com/chat/enter.asp <Lizzieangel90> that's what we are here for <Synesthesia> a lot of folks i know don't get why i like it <harryfreak359> lol seconded <CarpeDiem> Bye all! smile <magicmeg8> Yes, great job everyone -- lost of really wonderful points <Synesthesia> now to wander away. <harryfreak359> bye <CarpeDiem> Thanks Aislinn smile <magicmeg8> lol steffi <Aislinn> smile <SteffiLynn> bye everyone have a great nite see ya next week! *** CarpeDiem has quit [Bye] *** KimmyBlair has quit [Bye] <Lizzieangel90> this has been a great chat! smile <harryfreak359> yeah it has <Aislinn> thanks for joining in! <Aislinn> it was great!! *** SteffiLynn left #lounge [] *** Synesthesia has quit [Bye] <harryfreak359> dinner time i think! <LJ> bye all, awesome chat <harryfreak359> bye *** harryfreak359 has quit [Bye] <Lizzieangel90> thanks for the great chat mods!! <Lizzieangel90> i'm going to really leave now! *huggles8 <Lizzieangel90> byebye! <Aislinn> You're welcome <Aislinn> bye! <magicmeg8> aw -- bye lizzieliz This post has been edited by Aislinn: Jun 28 2006, 02:46 PM --------------------  To listen and share great filks, check out Swishandfilk.com New stuff: Nina's Piece of Me, MJ's Return to Forever & my Now We'll See |
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