WWW Corner Booth Transcript: Mar 28, 2007, Light and Dark Magic |
 Mar 28 2007, 08:32 PM
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Total Eclipse of the Elf  Posts: 2,102 Joined: 4:47pm July 3, 2005 Location: Kansas City  |
Moderators for this chat: futureweasley, Poet, Aislinn, fawkes28, Expelliarmas
[18:00] <Poet> Hi futureweasley [18:01] *** fawkes28 has joined #lounge [18:01] *** Aislinn has joined #lounge [18:01] *** stewiegryf has joined #lounge [18:01] <futureweasley> hi stewie [18:01] <Poet> hi stewiegryf [18:01] <stewiegryf> Hello! [18:01] <futureweasley> hi fawkes and Aislinn [18:01] <Poet> Hi Aislinn and fawkes28 [18:01] <stewiegryf> Happy Cover Art Day! [18:01] <futureweasley> happy Cover Art Day [18:01] <fawkes28> Hey all [18:01] <futureweasley> that's just awesome, isn't it?! [18:01] <Poet> yes yes [18:01] <stewiegryf> Amazing! [18:02] <fawkes28> we've been having some awesome discussions today [18:02] <futureweasley> warning: I officially cannot type this evening [18:02] *** Yasmina has joined #lounge [18:02] <fawkes28> hey yasmina [18:02] <futureweasley> hey Yasmina! [18:02] <Yasmina> hi [18:02] <stewiegryf> I love the text on the UK editions [18:02] <futureweasley> the Children's one, Stewie? [18:03] *** HPMommy has joined #lounge [18:03] <futureweasley> I think it's so insightful [18:03] <Poet> Me too, though I wish it spoiled us a bit more [18:03] <futureweasley> hi HPMommy [18:03] <HPMommy> Hi! [18:03] <Poet> Hi HPMommy [18:03] <fawkes28> hi hpmommy [18:03] <stewiegryf> Both [18:03] <Yasmina> hi HPmommy [18:03] <stewiegryf> The adult version has some different text as well. [18:03] <HPMommy> smile [18:03] <futureweasley> Chamber 007 is representing tonight!! [18:03] <Poet> I hadn't notice the differences [18:03] <fawkes28> i love the UK version - the chidlrens and luckily i will be getting that one first [18:03] <HPMommy> I'm finding hard not to read what was written on the covers [18:03] <Poet> But its hard to compare the two side by side in terms of text [18:04] <HPMommy> We are!! [18:04] <HPMommy> I love the UK version as well [18:04] <futureweasley> HPMommy, I don't think it really gave ANYTHING away [18:04] <Poet> Nothing much HPMommy [18:04] <futureweasley> it was just a little teaser...more like a recap [18:04] <fawkes28> i am so excited to get the book in my hands [18:04] <HPMommy> I'm amazed at how much Hermione and Ron look like the actors [18:04] <Yasmina> yes me too ...can't wait [18:04] <futureweasley> me and Arthur Levine will be balling [18:05] <Yasmina> yes I thought so too.... [18:05] <fawkes28> the UK version is only 608 pages - we should be able to finish it in no time [18:05] <HPMommy> I really like Arthur Levine's voice [18:05] <HPMommy> It's very soothing [18:05] <Poet> It's a lot shorter than the US version. Very odd. The pages must have much smaller print [18:05] <futureweasley> I still have to see the interview he gave on Today [18:05] <Poet> Or they have bigger pages [18:06] <fawkes28> i need to watch the video - i have been in the CB all day [18:06] <Poet> I haven't seen it either [18:06] <futureweasley> I've been illegally chatting from work today [18:06] * futureweasley is naughty [18:06] * fawkes28 is too [18:06] *** Punky has joined #lounge [18:06] <Poet> I don't have Internet at work, so no chance to be naughty. I called my sister at lunch and made her describe the covers to me though [18:06] <HPMommy> Hi Punky [18:06] * stewiegryf logged onto Leaky in the Library inbetween classes [18:06] <Punky> Hey [18:07] <futureweasley> hey there Punky! [18:07] <Aislinn> hey punky - welcome back smile [18:07] <Punky> Long time no see! [18:07] <futureweasley> purple.is.mine. [18:07] <Yasmina> I quit my job a while ago...so no chance to be naughty either [18:07] <Punky> never future [18:07] <fawkes28> work will always be there - cover art days won't always be there [18:07] <stewiegryf> Not if I have anything to say about that... [18:08] * futureweasley prepared to kick Punky in the shins [18:08] <stewiegryf> :) [18:08] <fawkes28> it is the last one sad [18:08] <futureweasley> oooooooh [18:08] <HPMommy> I'm grabbing green [18:08] <futureweasley> you guys are just as naughty as I am [18:08] <fawkes28> let's all share - [18:08] * fawkes28 feels like the teacher in here too [18:08] <Yasmina> how can i get a color [18:08] <futureweasley> >> on the bottom bar, Yasmina [18:08] <fawkes28> bottom right where you type [18:08] <Aislinn> down in the lower right hand corner [18:08] <Poet> Yes, only futureweasley can use purple [18:09] <Poet> ;) [18:09] <futureweasley> LOL [18:09] <Punky> aww man [18:09] *** animaguscow has joined #lounge [18:09] <fawkes28> punky, you can keep it [18:09] <stewiegryf> She's got a mod-opoly on the color. [18:09] <fawkes28> i give you permission [18:09] <Yasmina> i'm just testing the color [18:09] <Poet> coughcough [18:09] <futureweasley> hahaha, it's not true, though if I ever have the option to dictate policy in the Corner Booth, that will be the #1 thing I change [18:09] <Yasmina> nice i'.nm taking orange [18:10] <fawkes28> oh we already have an awesome rule - only woo hooing allowed [18:10] <Poet> what rule is that? [18:10] <futureweasley> woot [18:10] <futureweasley> woot [18:10] <stewiegryf> I thought you would dictate everyone accept your Snape/Petunia ship future. [18:10] *** CFourier has joined #lounge [18:10] <fawkes28> stop that [18:10] <futureweasley> JKR taught me that it's all about choices [18:10] <Poet> And please no smiley emoticons smile They make my screen go jumpy biggrin [18:10] <fawkes28> psst - you just did the emotions [18:10] <Poet> I know ;) [18:10] *** CFourier left #lounge [] [18:10] <Poet> :wink: [18:10] <fawkes28> elf gal [18:11] <futureweasley> Griphook. Enough said [18:11] * Poet is evile [18:11] <Poet> dobby [18:11] <fawkes28> it is a goblin - deal with it [18:11] <Aislinn> goblin [18:11] <fawkes28> hehehe [18:11] <futureweasley> LOL [18:11] <Poet> fighfight! [18:11] *** MafaldaWeasley has joined #lounge [18:11] <Yasmina> Let's make a bet [18:11] <Poet> definitely an elf on Harry's back [18:11] <Aislinn> hi MafaldaWeasley [18:11] <futureweasley> no betting...it's illegal [18:11] <HPMommy> That is so Dobby!! [18:11] <fawkes28> no way - it is a goblin [18:11] <MafaldaWeasley> hello dears [18:11] <fawkes28> HpMommy!!! [18:11] <animaguscow> It's an elf [18:11] <Aislinn> goblin [18:11] <fawkes28> boo [18:12] <HPMommy> Elf [18:12] <futureweasley> HPMommy...you are killing me [18:12] <Aislinn> laugh [18:12] <Punky> I agree, it's a goblin [18:12] <fawkes28> i am so not hanging out with you now [18:12] <futureweasley> YES! [18:12] <Poet> The winners get Dairy Milk [18:12] <futureweasley> we got Punky! [18:12] <MafaldaWeasley> I think it's Dobby [18:12] <stewiegryf> It's both a goblin and a house elf! [18:12] <Yasmina> go HPMommy [18:12] <HPMommy> What? [18:12] <HPMommy> Did I miss something? [18:12] <futureweasley> lol Stewie [18:12] <fawkes28> nice try, stewie [18:12] <stewiegryf> Everyone wins [18:12] <Aislinn> an Elflin! [18:12] <futureweasley> Half-elf? [18:12] <fawkes28> we have been debating this all afternoon [18:12] <Yasmina> you rooted for Dobby!!! [18:12] <Poet> The UK children's edition of the book [18:12] <fawkes28> the goblin side won of course [18:12] <HPMommy> It is definitely Dobby [18:12] <futureweasley> but of course [18:12] <Poet> Dobby or die [18:12] <stewiegryf> Kreacher [18:12] <HPMommy> You know it! [18:12] <futureweasley> whoa, harsh [18:12] <HPMommy> ;) [18:13] <Poet> Or I'll SPEW [18:13] <MafaldaWeasley> haha I agree Poet [18:13] <Punky> lol [18:13] <futureweasley> not Kreacher...PLEASE not Kreacher [18:13] *** leakylurker has joined #lounge [18:13] <stewiegryf> Winky? [18:13] <HPMommy> Eeeeek [18:13] <HPMommy> I hope not [18:13] <HPMommy> Still drunk [18:13] *** leakylurker has quit [Bye] [18:13] <Aislinn> it's a goblin, goblin, goblin! [18:13] <futureweasley> he'd be looking for a place in Harry's back to stick that sword [18:13] <Yasmina> not kreacher...but definitely dobby [18:13] <MafaldaWeasley> Kreacher, just if it is to backstab harry [18:13] <HPMommy> Why would it be a goblin? [18:13] <MafaldaWeasley> yeah Future [18:13] <fawkes28> yes, Aislinn knows what is going on [18:13] *** kaelgirl has joined #lounge [18:13] <Punky> You have to compare it to the other covers it's a goblin [18:13] <HPMommy> Because of they're rebellion? [18:13] <fawkes28> they are at Gringotts - HPMommy [18:13] <futureweasley> hi LeakyLurker [18:14] <stewiegryf> Beacuse professsor Binns never shuts up about goblins [18:14] <HPMommy> With Dobby [18:14] <fawkes28> yes and they have been underestimated for years [18:14] <Poet> maybe [18:14] <fawkes28> pffft [18:14] <HPMommy> LOL [18:14] <futureweasley> why would Dobby be helpful in Gringotts? [18:14] <fawkes28> exactly Stewie [18:14] <stewiegryf> But I still think its an elf. [18:14] <HPMommy> Because the elves have very strong magic [18:14] <fawkes28> he isn't helpful there - no Dobby [18:14] <Aislinn> is there UK cover or chapter art of elves or goblins, punky? [18:14] <HPMommy> I"m going back to look now [18:14] <Punky> The cover art [18:14] <futureweasley> I think the Goblins make more sense if they are in Gringotts [18:14] <Yasmina> Yes HPmommy...and we don't even if the goblins are taking sides [18:14] <Aislinn> which cover? [18:15] <Punky> OotP, I think [18:15] <Poet> We will be starting the discussion in a few minutes. You’re not going to be able to type for a few minutes while we make some announcements. Please bear with us, you’ll be able to type again soon. [18:15] <MafaldaWeasley> I think Dobby make more sense, we are seeing somebody who's having Harry's back... [18:15] <stewiegryf> And what about the sword? Gryffindor's sword? [18:15] <Poet> Welcome to this WWW chat in the Corner Booth! The chat is led by moderators who ask pre-prepared questions. While it's easy to drift off in various directions, let's all try to have a fun chat by staying on topic. The rules of the Lounge apply in the Corner Booth: http://www.leakylounge.com/?act=rules [18:15] <Poet> During the chat a moderator may send you a Booth Message. A button next to #Lounge will appear with one of the mods' names on it. Click on the button, read the message, click back on the #Lounge button, and then type something like "Poet, I got it" into this main chat. [18:15] <Poet> If you need to contact us during the chat, send us a PM on the Lounge. If we haven't replied after about 10 minutes, give us a heads-up here in the chat. OK, moving on to the topic introduction! [18:15] <futureweasley> There are three Unforgivable Curses and the use of any one of them may result in a life sentence in Azkaban. [18:16] *** ltbrave23 has joined #lounge [18:16] <futureweasley> The Cruciatus Curse causes an insufferable amount of pain to its victim. Excessive use of this curse can damage a person’s mind. [18:16] <futureweasley> The Imperius Curse takes complete control of the person and forces the victim to do whatever the one the one who cast the spell wants. This curse is the only Unforgivable Curse that a person can fight. [18:16] <futureweasley> The Killing Curse (Avada Kedavra) causes an instant death with a flash of green light. There is no known counter-curse. Harry Potter is the only known survivor of this curse. [18:16] <futureweasley> Magic is often analyzed on a spectrum ranging from Light to Dark Magic. Let’s analyze our interpretations of these terms and begin our chat! [18:16] <futureweasley> How would you define Dark Magic? [18:16] <futureweasley> magic with the intent to do harm [18:17] <MafaldaWeasley> It's the one that is made in a selfish act [18:17] <Poet> The intent and the damage it creates [18:17] <fawkes28> I think Dark Magic involves evile intentions [18:17] <Aislinn> Yes, I'd agree that intent is a large part of it [18:17] <futureweasley> yes, I agree with all of those things. [18:17] <kaelgirl> magic that was made to cause destruction [18:17] <futureweasley> I think that it's about the intent [18:17] <Aislinn> intent to damage or destroy [18:17] <ltbrave23> well yes, but it is also dark because of the connotations put on it [18:17] <Yasmina> yes it definitely requires evil intentions to be able to perform it [18:18] <kaelgirl> nothing good comes from it [18:18] <futureweasley> however, like Harry learned, even with the best of intentions, you can perform dark magic and not fully capitalize or understand it's power [18:18] <Poet> Magic that takes away from others - their belongings, life, free agency, belongings, etc [18:18] <fawkes28> besides intent - i think also the intensity of the spell [18:18] <kaelgirl> I agree, fawkes. Dark magic is quite intense [18:18] <Aislinn> I think the reason that Harry was ultimately unsuccessful, future, is that he just truly does not have evil intent in his heart [18:18] <fawkes28> like hexing someone and giving them a bloody nose - doesn't not classify as Dark Magic [18:19] *** terivic has joined #lounge [18:19] <futureweasley> each spell has been steeped in tradition...and likely polished and morphed into what it has eventually become [18:19] <Poet> Unless its a serious bloody nose intended to permanently injure.... Most can be fixed pretty easily [18:19] <futureweasley> actually, Aislinn, I was referring to sectumsempra...not so much Crucio...but I think we will hit on that later [18:19] <Poet> I like that futureweasley [18:19] <futureweasley> sorry [18:19] <Aislinn> yes [18:20] *** VickyRybs has joined #lounge [18:20] <futureweasley> How would you define Light Magic? [18:20] <Aislinn> I think it is magic that is created for the purposes of helping a person [18:20] <fawkes28> magic that has good intentions and helps a person or person [18:20] <VickyRybs> Erm.. what is this chat about, if you don't mind my asking? smile [18:20] <stewiegryf> Anything that is not dark. Basically, something that isn't malicious. [18:20] <futureweasley> magic with the intent to heal or help [18:20] <Yasmina> something that requires self sacrifice [18:20] <fawkes28> like types of healing magic [18:20] <Poet> Fixes something, creates things people need [18:20] <animaguscow> magic to heal or helps others. [18:21] <Yasmina> or like Lily's magic...protection of Harry [18:21] <kaelgirl> its also for defense [18:21] <Poet> Vicky, the topic is light and dark magic [18:21] <fawkes28> stewie, i don't think it can be just anything that is not dark [18:21] <Aislinn> I think that light magic is essentially creative, while dark is essentially destructive [18:21] <ltbrave23> well, as we have seen light magic can cause damage too [18:21] <ltbrave23> but it is mostly defensive [18:21] <VickyRybs> OK, thank you smile [18:21] <kaelgirl> there are hexes and I don't think they're dark [18:21] <futureweasley> aren't there areas of gray all thoughtout the series? I don't think "light" and "dark" can so easily be defined at times [18:21] <fawkes28> yes, it can - like love - but that is where the intentions come in [18:22] <ltbrave23> i agree future [18:22] <Poet> I agree future - there is light magic, dark magic, and in between [18:22] <MafaldaWeasley> I agree with you future [18:22] <Aislinn> I'd agree that there are gray areas [18:22] <futureweasley> Jo actually talks about the difference between a hex and a charm and a spell...it's quite interesting to read it from her minds eye [18:22] <Yasmina> or maybe neutral magic...neither light or dark? [18:22] <kaelgirl> I would say that spells like the Bat Bogey Hex would be in the grey [18:22] <Punky> or a lot of the simple charms they learn, it isn't good or evil it just is [18:22] <fawkes28> we'll chat about all of those hexes, etc in a bit smile [18:23] <Aislinn> she does seem to place them along a continuum, future [18:23] <futureweasley> the only reason I wouldn't agree with that, Yasmina, is that I think any magic performed has intention...I don't think that "neutral" magic can be preformed [18:23] *** VickyRybs has quit [Bye] [18:23] <Poet> Just like she has characters along a continuum [18:23] <fawkes28> yes, i can agree with that, future [18:23] <futureweasley> it's like an oxymoron [18:24] <ltbrave23> i think it is the intention of the caster that defines whether or not a spell is light or dark, i mean there are exceptions of course [18:24] <stewiegryf> So it wouldn't really be a spell that is considered dark or light but rather the intent of the caster? [18:24] <fawkes28> i say it is more intent than anything [18:24] <futureweasley> I guess that's how I see it, Stewie [18:24] <Poet> She never reallyl says light magic, but she does say Dark Magic. We've seen many of the characters use magic that is in those areas of gray - mostly for fun [18:24] <kaelgirl> well, I wouldn't say that it all has to do with intent. Like the Unforgivable spells take bad intent no matter what [18:24] <stewiegryf> I kind of agree with that. [18:24] <Yasmina> in that case then light will be anything that is not dark [18:25] <futureweasley> Is Light and Dark always to be equated with Good and Evil? (question by member: The Curious Mr Quint) [18:25] <Poet> I think so [18:25] <fawkes28> i love this question [18:25] <kaelgirl> I think so as well [18:25] <Aislinn> I do think that there is a connection, yes [18:25] <ltbrave23> i think so, but it shouldn't necessarily [18:25] <fawkes28> see it makes me think that it doesn't always need to be - even though most of the times yes, it is [18:25] <futureweasley> honestly, I don't think so. Like I said, sectumsempra...dark magic performed by a wizard who did not know its consequence [18:25] <MafaldaWeasley> I think nothing is too simple as that [18:26] <kaelgirl> thats true, future [18:26] <Yasmina> I think so too....not that light magic ouldn't harm...but it was not created to make harm [18:26] <Poet> Dark magic I think was often created by evil people for evil intents, though I can think of good people accidentally using Dark spells or trying to use them for less-than evil reasons [18:26] <kaelgirl> "always" is a strong word. [18:26] <Aislinn> but the spell itself was evil, future. It causes damage, that is it's intent [18:27] <futureweasley> right Yasmina...I agree...it incantation as it is written has to do with the creator's intent...which I think the caster "assumes" when casting said spell [18:27] <Aislinn> the creator claimed that spell was "for enemies' [18:27] <fawkes28> but then the question comes down to does the intent just need to be evil to make it Dark or does the spell just matter [18:27] <futureweasley> wow, how many times can YOU use the word "cast" in one sentence, eh? [18:27] <Aislinn> thus - evil intent [18:27] <Poet> Sometimes the words themselves are so accurate or strong that the intent doesn't have to be as strong or as well-meant [18:28] <Poet> ...from what we've seen with a certain spell in Book 6 [18:28] <kaelgirl> there seems to be a fine line with the intent thing [18:28] <futureweasley> well Aislinn...he was using it as self-protection...how was he to know that it would inflict so much damage? [18:28] <Aislinn> i think that some spells are inherently dark,while others are more neutral, and they are the ones where intent comes more into play [18:28] <MafaldaWeasley> I agree Poet. Sometimes the spell was created to cause harm and be mean. But those are especial curses [18:28] <Poet> Excessive hand motion for instance can make a spell stronger - [18:28] <Aislinn> he was being careless, future, as he didn't know what the spell would do [18:28] <fawkes28> yes, you can't think that a spell that is for enemies is a good spell [18:28] <Punky> I think you have to be careful with intent though future, it can only justify so much [18:29] <Aislinn> and was appalled at what it did [18:29] *** terivic has quit [Bye] [18:29] <fawkes28> the spell is still dark and evil even though Harry is light and pure of heart [18:29] <kaelgirl> maybe Harry's intent was more dark at the moment, but he didn't know how much damage the spell would make. [18:29] <futureweasley> he was appalled...so does that mean his intent was "dark"? I don't know...I tend to think not [18:30] <Poet> Spells require words, thoughts, magical ability, hand motion, and a wand. The results from one person to another can be very different interms of damage or good [18:30] <Aislinn> I don't think his intent was, future [18:30] <kaelgirl> well...consider the history with Malfoy [18:30] <Aislinn> I think the spell itself is dark, and therefore evil [18:30] <futureweasley> Not all magic can be classified into Dark and Light Magic. What factors determine whether magic in this neutral area leans more toward the Dark or Light side of magic? [18:30] <MafaldaWeasley> Yeah, but Harry was angry with Malfoy...he used with the intent of protecting himself but he wasn't planning not to hurt Malfoy. Hedidn't knew what the spell could do, but he knew was somehing bad [18:30] <Poet> I agree - the spell can be evil and not the person [18:30] <Yasmina> I agree with you Aislinn, I think he just it another defensive spell [18:30] <kaelgirl> But then why did Harry's attempt at doing the Cruciatus curse on Bellatrix not work so well? [18:31] *** chell_e_bean has joined #lounge [18:31] <stewiegryf> The factors that determine this would be intent. [18:31] *** chell_e_bean has quit [Bye] [18:31] <futureweasley> circumstance? [18:31] <Poet> Magic in the grey or neutral area seems to be more influenced by how you do it, for how long - yeah circumstance [18:31] <futureweasley> knowledge of said spell? [18:31] <Yasmina> the purpose of what it is used for... [18:31] <fawkes28> i think there are some spells that fall into that neutral area [18:32] <fawkes28> like a cooking spell - that isn't really light or dark [18:32] <Aislinn> yes, there are spells like are neutral, but the way that someone chooses to use them can push them into a more light or dark area [18:32] *** africansk8er has joined #lounge [18:32] <futureweasley> fawkes, unless you intend your cooking to either nurish or poison the consumer... [18:33] <Poet> Applying the spell to an object may be okay, but that same spell applied to a person could be cruel, so circumstance definitely comes into play with gray magic [18:33] <stewiegryf> Couldn't a cooking spell be seen as "light", especially in the sense that Mrs, Weasley uses it? [18:33] <fawkes28> well if you intend to poision then yes - dark magic [18:33] *** Chara has joined #lounge [18:33] <stewiegryf> She helps and feeds her family with it. [18:33] <Yasmina> yes like a charm to let something boil, used on blood it could kill [18:33] <Aislinn> yes, stewie [18:33] <futureweasley> yes, that's what I'm saying [18:34] <Poet> Thus - never put your wand in your back pocket [18:34] *** africansk8er has quit [Bye] [18:34] *** Love4Fawkes has joined #lounge [18:34] <stewiegryf> Thanks Moody, er, Poet. ;) [18:34] <Aislinn> Accio is an example of a neutral spell to me [18:34] <Aislinn> It could be used to get something that you need, or it could be used to steal something [18:35] *** Chara has quit [Bye] [18:35] <stewiegryf> I think most of the charms learned in the first few books would be neutral. [18:35] <Poet> I get it [18:35] <Aislinn> intent of the caster makes a big difference [18:35] <Yasmina> or the Levitating spell [18:35] <Poet> Definitely [18:35] <stewiegryf> Wingardium Leviosa could be used for helpful purposes or to taunt someone by playing keep away with it. [18:35] <Poet> A lot of charms are neutral because they do things and could be used for a whole array of things [18:35] <Poet> The act upon things [18:35] <Aislinn> good example, stewie [18:36] <Aislinn> right poet [18:36] <futureweasley> accio and Levitation could be used as dark magic...it depends, again, on the intent. Lucius or Bella yelling "Accio Prophecy"...it was about their intention [18:36] *** dumbleydore18 has joined #lounge [18:36] <Aislinn> yes, future, exactly [18:36] <futureweasley> Which unforgivable curse do you feel is the darkest of the three? Why? [18:36] <Yasmina> I agree future [18:36] <MafaldaWeasley> yCrucio [18:36] <fawkes28> I think Crucio is [18:36] <futureweasley> I personally think that Imperius is the worst [18:36] <Poet> AK is quick, but you never recover [18:36] <Yasmina> crucio [18:36] <MafaldaWeasley> Crucio is very evil, that cuases people suffering [18:36] <dumbleydore18> cruciotus curse becasue it tortures people into insanity [18:36] <stewiegryf> Crucio, it's main purpose it to torture and nothing else. It has no other use. [18:36] <Poet> Crucio seems the most cruel [18:36] <fawkes28> Crucio causes you to never be yourself again if it is used enough [18:36] <kaelgirl> I think Imperius is really bad [18:37] <Poet> Imperius feels not so bad though [18:37] <futureweasley> to bend someone else's will to do what you want is more cruel than killing or torturing them, IMO [18:37] <Love4Fawkes> Crucio is the cruelist [18:37] <kaelgirl> it takes away a persons ability to choose [18:37] <fawkes28> yes, it is a cruel curse - there is nothing light about it [18:37] <Yasmina> yes but to be able to enjoy somebody having cruciating pain in fron of you ...is pure evil [18:37] <HPMommy> AK because it leaves such a dramatic impact on the survivor's loved one [18:37] <Love4Fawkes> Nellville's parents are much worse off the harry's [18:37] <Poet> Yes, but in terms of how it feels or its long-term damage, it may not damage you (you can hope) [18:37] <futureweasley> yes kaelgirl...I agree...forcing someone to do your bidding it awful [18:37] <Aislinn> it's hard to say one is worse than another [18:37] <MafaldaWeasley> I don't think so, future. I think Imperious you have a way to fight... Crucio is an awful pain [18:37] <Aislinn> to take someone's life is such an evil act [18:37] <stewiegryf> The same could be said for Crucio as well HPMommy. Look at Neville. [18:37] <futureweasley> there's a reason they are all unforgivable...they are all bed [18:37] <fawkes28> yes, malfada - you can fight the imperious [18:38] <Poet> too true [18:38] <animaguscow> I can't, pick one they're all evil cause they harm in some way. [18:38] <Yasmina> yes butt DD siad there are things worse than death [18:38] <Aislinn> But to torture them, especially as was done to the Longbottoms, is truly evil as well [18:38] <futureweasley> we haven't been shown yet if you can fight off a cruciatius [18:38] <futureweasley> but I bet you can [18:38] <kaelgirl> its hard to choose, but I would have the hardest time cursing someone with the Imperius, whether they can fight it or not [18:38] <fawkes28> i dont think you really can fight that off [18:38] <MafaldaWeasley> I don't think so. I think it's a pain that blocks you from your rationality [18:38] <HPMommy> But Stewie would you rather be able to see your parents even if they couldn't recognize you or not see them at all? [18:38] <MafaldaWeasley> that's why you go insane [18:39] *** ProfessorZovibergh has joined #lounge [18:39] <Aislinn> in some ways, it's harder to have someone still alive, but not themselves anymore, HPMommy [18:39] *** ProfessorZovibergh has quit [Bye] [18:39] <fawkes28> i wouldnt ever want to go through what neville goes through [18:39] <HPMommy> Let's hope we all never have to find out! [18:39] <futureweasley> you don't think that if a wizard is trained to "find their happy place" that they can't use their mind to overcome the cruciatius? [18:39] <Poet> Crucio seems the worse - it hurts you and keeps hurting later. It breaks your will to resist someone [18:39] <stewiegryf> Don't you think its almost as bad having to see them in such a state, knowing what they used to be? [18:39] <Love4Fawkes> i'd rather not seem them at all. The people neville sees are not his parents they are his parent's body with someone unrecognizable inside [18:39] <kaelgirl> that is true. I think that the most "merciful" is the AK...if you can call evil merciful [18:39] <fawkes28> he sees them often but they don't know who he is - at least Harry knows he won't get his parents back [18:39] <MafaldaWeasley> No. I think the pain is too string to react [18:40] <MafaldaWeasley> strong [18:40] <Aislinn> it is excruciating for people to go through that, stewie [18:40] *** Joyhawk2121 has joined #lounge [18:40] <futureweasley> we shall agree to disagree on this one, Mafalda. grin [18:40] <MafaldaWeasley> AK is intantaneous, kills fast [18:40] <MafaldaWeasley> yeah future smile [18:41] <MafaldaWeasley> they are all awful [18:41] *** dumbleydore18 has quit [Bye] [18:41] <Joyhawk2121> hello everyone [18:41] <futureweasley> Are any of these curses more forgivable than the others? [18:41] <fawkes28> yes, they are all awful [18:41] <MafaldaWeasley> hi joy [18:41] *** Howie_64 has joined #lounge [18:41] <kaelgirl> I just find it interesting that the one curse with no defense is the one that is the least voted as the worst [18:41] <Poet> None of them have defenses [18:41] <stewiegryf> No, which is why they all deserve a life sentence. [18:41] <Poet> not really [18:41] <fawkes28> i don't think they can be - because they all require evil intentions [18:41] <Aislinn> I don't think any of them are forgivable [18:41] <kaelgirl> well, there are ways of avoiding them [18:41] <MafaldaWeasley> I agree with Fawkes [18:42] <Love4Fawkes> none of them are forgivable [18:42] <Punky> Right, they all require intense feeling to cast them [18:42] <futureweasley> hence the term 'unforgivable' [18:42] <Howie_64> Imperio has defenses. [18:42] <Howie_64> Harry thew it off. [18:42] <fawkes28> unless maybe the imperius if one of the Order needed a DE to do something [18:42] <Love4Fawkes> very few wizards are able to throw off the imperius curse though [18:42] <fawkes28> but i dont think they would stoop to that level [18:42] <Aislinn> I can understand the impulse that Harry had to lash out at Bella and Snape, but to apply the Cruciatus and get satisfaction out of it is unforgivable [18:42] <kaelgirl> but there are better ways than an unforgivable to do that, fawkes [18:42] <ltbrave23> it's harder for someone who is unsuspecting [18:42] *** huebbe has joined #lounge [18:42] <futureweasley> I guess, again, the intention of Imperio MIGHT be forgivable in a very radical circumstance [18:42] <Poet> No countercurse, but I would say Imperio could be more forgivable, because it doesn't hurt as much and doesn't have as much long term damage [18:43] <ltbrave23> but it takes away free will [18:43] <ltbrave23> that is worse in some sense [18:43] <Aislinn> I think that choosing to use bad curses because you think your cause is more just is heading down a slippery slope fawkes [18:43] <futureweasley> I agree, I think it's the worst of the worst [18:43] <Love4Fawkes> it depends on what you make the person do. [18:43] <Poet> Your attackee would be much more willing to forgive I mean - you'd still go to jail for life [18:43] <Punky> and even just the impulse he had to lash out, it wasn't effective. So to do it and be truly effective it's not forgivable [18:43] <Aislinn> I think that if you do the bad things that the bad people do, there is little difference between you and them [18:43] <futureweasley> but if Harry cast it on Hermione to make her run away from danger when she wouldn't move...I would almost forgive that, I think. Hermione wouldn't, but I as the reader would. [18:44] <ltbrave23> i agree aislinn [18:44] <Howie_64> I'd rather have an hour or so of torture than have my free will taken away indefinitely. [18:44] <Yasmina> it was interseting when the order was taking about the weapon, the first thing Harry said was "worse than the Avada Kedavra?" [18:44] <fawkes28> yes, future [18:44] <MafaldaWeasley> I think they are all awful cause they are all done in a selfish and awful act of getting what you want not matter how bad you can cause other [18:44] <kaelgirl> I don't think that anyone should stoop to forcing someone to doing something [18:44] <fawkes28> but imperius is not indefinitely [18:44] <ltbrave23> that's interesting future [18:44] <Aislinn> like when Crouch sr. gave the Aurors permission to use the Unforgivables in the first battle - I think that was inherently wrong [18:44] <ltbrave23> i agree howie [18:44] <Poet> Howie - how about your free will taken away for an hour [18:44] <futureweasley> yes Aislinn! [18:44] <kaelgirl> I agree Aislinn! [18:44] <Howie_64> It can be, though. [18:45] <futureweasley> totally wrong...total powertrip in the wrong hands [18:45] <Love4Fawkes> i agree aislinn [18:45] <ltbrave23> i agree aislinn [18:45] <Aislinn> I don't think that taking choice away from someone - even if you think that it is a good thing in the moment, is justifiable [18:45] <stewiegryf> That is interesting future, but isn't that unfair to Hermione? If she wants to die with Harry, isn't that her choice? [18:45] <futureweasley> renegade Aurors blasting anyone and everyone with unforgivables [18:45] <Love4Fawkes> but look at crouch, he used an unforgiveable curse on his own son [18:45] <Yasmina> I don't think the real Moody would have used them [18:45] <MafaldaWeasley> I think he allowed more the AK than other.. I wouls AK Bella if I could... I'm evil [18:45] <ltbrave23> but they are in a war...it's hard to feel like you're gonna win if the other side has seemingly bigger weapons [18:45] <Poet> Crouch was using it like a home-prison program [18:45] <Aislinn> remember that DD didn't put Harry under an Imperius to get him to do what he wanted - he made him promise [18:45] <futureweasley> it is Stewie...but like I said, Hermione might be flaming t'ed off...but I would thank Harry [18:45] <Aislinn> it was a CHOICE on Harry's part, not a dictate on DD's [18:45] <Howie_64> Ya. However, they did need a weapon with which to fight the DE, and they were very desperate. I still disagree with it though [18:46] <ltbrave23> i do as well [18:46] <Aislinn> exactly, stewie [18:46] <kaelgirl> I think that the best way to fight the DE's is with good magic, not go to their level [18:46] <Aislinn> it is never OK to take away another's choice, even if you disagree with that choice [18:46] <futureweasley> YES! kaelgirl..you hit it on the head [18:46] <stewiegryf> I agree kaelgirl. [18:46] <Aislinn> and even when it is a bad choice on their part [18:46] <futureweasley> Should there be any other curses that we know about added to this list of unforgivable curses? [18:47] *** Shard has joined #lounge [18:47] <ltbrave23> i agree aislinn [18:47] <MafaldaWeasley> Sectumsempra [18:47] <futureweasley> agreed Mafalda [18:47] <Shard> Hello all [18:47] <kaelgirl> definitely Mafalda [18:47] <Howie_64> Right. [18:47] <ltbrave23> agree [18:47] <Shard> So what are we talking about? [18:47] <Aislinn> yes, I think that Sectumsempra is just as bad [18:47] <futureweasley> bad one. [18:47] <fawkes28> yes, i think sectumsempra [18:47] <animaguscow> yup [18:47] <futureweasley> repeat of the question for Shard: Should there be any other curses that we know about added to this list of unforgivable curses? [18:47] <Punky> But you dont have to mean it to make it happen [18:47] <kaelgirl> One of Snape's darkest hours was when he made that spell [18:47] <Poet> It cuts, but I don't think it was meant to cut that much. Harry got carried away because he didn't know what it did [18:47] <Shard> Sectumsempra is bad [18:47] <MafaldaWeasley> and all the others little pearls created by Mr. Snape on his glorious days [18:47] <fawkes28> i don't see how there is anything forgivable about that curse [18:47] <Shard> But that's a spell that can be blocked [18:47] <ltbrave23> sectumsempra is almost equivalent to crucio [18:47] <Love4Fawkes> i don't necessarily agree that it should be added to unforgivable curses [18:47] <Shard> It's a bad one but I dont think it's unforgivable [18:48] <fawkes28> it has such evile intentions [18:48] <Yasmina> Occlumens.... [18:48] <ltbrave23> other than it can be blocked [18:48] <Love4Fawkes> its bad, but not unforgivable [18:48] <futureweasley> how's about Oppungo? (the flying bird pecking curse) LOL [18:48] <stewiegryf> Rictusempra. Nobody should be forced to laugh if they don't want to. ;) [18:48] <Punky> It's evil but I don't think it's unforgivable [18:48] <Shard> lol [18:48] <kaelgirl> Interesting you should say that, Yasmina [18:48] <Howie_64> It can also be used by accident. [18:48] <kaelgirl> lol stewie [18:48] <Aislinn> the imperius curse can be too, shard, it's still unforgivable [18:48] <MafaldaWeasley> I think Legimens is worst than Occlumens [18:48] <futureweasley> I don't think Occlumens should be...but Legilmans mgiht [18:48] <fawkes28> i don't feel like sectumsempra is unforgivable [18:49] <Aislinn> yes - I think Legilimans is much worse than Occlumens [18:49] <MafaldaWeasley> well, future, we are agreeing on agreeing now haha [18:49] <Yasmina> that's what I meant future smile [18:49] <kaelgirl> Legilimens is pretty bad. Its in league with the Imperius curse [18:49] <Shard> True but Imperius curse takes a persons will away [18:49] <Love4Fawkes> i agree fawkes [18:49] <Aislinn> occlumens is keeping your own thoughts to yourself - nothing wrong with that [18:49] <futureweasley> lol, I knew we would Mafalda [18:49] <Aislinn> legilimens is a complete invasion of privacy [18:49] <Howie_64> Right, Legilimens is another that takes away certain liberties... [18:49] <ltbrave23> it depends on how its used aislinn [18:49] <Yasmina> yes... [18:49] <Poet> But someone's thoughts can't be read like an open book [18:49] <Love4Fawkes> it is aislinn, but I don't think it is unforgivable [18:49] <futureweasley> right Aislinn...that one should go by the wayside as an unforgivable IMO [18:49] <Aislinn> i think that sectumsempra is inherently evil, fawkes [18:50] <MafaldaWeasley> yeah, and it's used with the intention of discovering informations valid to the mind reader [18:50] *** Danidunes has joined #lounge [18:50] <futureweasley> stay OUT of my head, thank you very much [18:50] <fawkes28> i do wonder why Jo did not classify it as unforgivable [18:50] <kaelgirl> quite right, future [18:50] <fawkes28> perhaps because it is not well known [18:50] <Punky> But it could still be done inadvertently Aislinn, like Harry did [18:50] <Love4Fawkes> but sectumsempra can be done by easily, unforgivable curses require A LOT of power and thought [18:50] *** Wierdgirl5834 has joined #lounge [18:50] <Aislinn> which spell, punky? [18:50] <kaelgirl> maybe because it shows how corrupt the MoM is. Maybe they use it in interrogations... [18:50] <stewiegryf> I would guess that is the reason fawkes. The Ministry probably doesn't know about it. [18:50] <Aislinn> sectumsempra? [18:50] <Punky> sectusempra [18:50] <Wierdgirl5834> hey guys [18:50] <futureweasley> I also think that Legilimans is much harder to pull off than any of the unforgivables [18:51] <Howie_64> It's not widely known. [18:51] <Poet> The intent is to get info. Just like with some of the charms - its what you do with what you get that makes it evil or no [18:51] <ltbrave23> i agree future [18:51] <futureweasley> I think you really need to be a skilled wizard to do it and get away with it [18:51] <Aislinn> yeah, but if he had known that it was an unforgivable, as it should be, he would never have tried it in that ciricumstance [18:51] <futureweasley> therefore, I don't know that it would be seen as a "threat" by the ministry [18:51] <MafaldaWeasley> Love4, even one more reason to forbid it.. if you can do it easily and it's very evil, it should be kept away from innocent people [18:51] <Wierdgirl5834> so... [18:51] <Aislinn> I think that getting info, against another's will, is evil, poet [18:51] <Aislinn> it has nothing to do with intent [18:52] <futureweasley> If the Unforgivable Curses are used in self-defense, would these curses be able to be forgiven? [18:52] <Wierdgirl5834> what cha talking about? [18:52] <MafaldaWeasley> hi wierd! [18:52] <kaelgirl> though the MoM should see it as a threat because LV is an accomplished legilimens, and he could use it against them [18:52] <ltbrave23> the problem with sectumsempra is that it is not widely known [18:52] *** chocolateisnotforbreakfast has joined #lounge [18:52] *** Wierdgirl5834 left #lounge [] [18:52] <futureweasley> hey chocolate [18:52] <ltbrave23> the problem is neither is the countercurse [18:52] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> hey future smile [18:52] <Howie_64> I agree, Aislinn. [18:52] <Love4Fawkes> i see your point Mafalda, I'm just not so sure its quite as bad as the unforgiveable curses [18:52] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> what's the question at hand? [18:52] <fawkes28> we had a dicussion in my RG about Aurors using the curses [18:52] <ltbrave23> dd uses legimens is he evil then aislinn [18:52] <Poet> <futureweasley> If the Unforgivable Curses are used in self-defense, would these curses be able to be forgiven? [18:53] <MafaldaWeasley> I think so...If it' your life or a life of an evil guy that won't hesitat on making you meet up with St. peter.... [18:53] *** Danidunes has quit [Bye] [18:53] <Aislinn> I think that he was ethically wrong to use it, yes, ltbrave23 [18:53] <futureweasley> I think that self-defense is just that...self-defense. If you have to defend yourself by means of a killing curse (because your attacker will stop at nothing to hurt you, or is planning on using it on you) then it's appropriate means of protecting yourslef [18:53] <Poet> I could see someone using the imperius to stop a Death Eater who was crucio'ing someone, if there was no other way to stop them [18:53] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> thanks poet... i'd say so... i think unforgiveable is just a name... just like the "7 deadly sins" [18:54] <Aislinn> this is a difficult question [18:54] <Love4Fawkes> i agree aislinn [18:54] <Howie_64> Is this being extremely slow for anyone else? [18:54] <fawkes28> see there are other things you can do for self-defense [18:54] <ltbrave23> exactly [18:54] <Aislinn> I agree, fawkes [18:54] <Punky> Right Fawkes [18:55] <fawkes28> if and only if it is the absolute last resort [18:55] <MafaldaWeasley> I''m good Howie...Snuffles is being good to me [18:55] <fawkes28> and i mean last [18:55] <Poet> The intent is so strong with the 3 unforgivables. I assume that's why there is no countercurse yet. I guess one unforgivable might have to be used to stop another unforgivable [18:55] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> well, there are other ways of killing, too, fawkes... why aren't certain curses unforgiveable... [18:55] <Aislinn> And making the choice to use an unforgivable is crossing a line, ethically [18:55] <Yasmina> but then how can you judge it is the last resort? [18:55] <fawkes28> because if you let the Aurors do it then people will take advantage of it [18:55] <fawkes28> yes, aislinn [18:55] <Yasmina> when you are ina fight...you barely have time to think!!! [18:55] <Love4Fawkes> but we allow people to kill in self-defense [18:55] <stewiegryf> There are other ways of stopping an attacker rather than using an unforgiveable. [18:55] <Howie_64> lol [18:55] <Aislinn> exactly stewie [18:55] <Yasmina> let alone to judge the situation rationally [18:56] <ltbrave23> but when you are in a situation where it is your life or there's and there is no other way doesn't ethics kind of go out of the window [18:56] <MafaldaWeasley> I agree last resort... [18:56] <ltbrave23> i agree stewie [18:56] <Poet> If someone is intent on killing you, they might eventual find a way of doing it, since supposedly all other spells have counterspells and can be thrown off easily by a skilled person [18:56] <Aislinn> I think Dumbledore believed that ethics never go out the window [18:56] <Howie_64> Life or Death situation [18:56] <futureweasley> I think ethics go out the window when you are protecting your life. it's one of those things...I know that fighting with honor and dignity are important...but if you have the means to save yourself, ethical or not, and you've tried everything else...use it [18:56] <ltbrave23> yet he used legimens? [18:56] <kaelgirl> I agree Aislinn [18:56] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i agree with future [18:56] <stewiegryf> DD didn't use one at all in the Ministry and every single DE in that building would have loved to kill him. [18:56] <Aislinn> not one of the Unforgivables, though, ltbrave23 [18:56] <ltbrave23> i agree [18:56] <Aislinn> even though I do have a problem with it [18:57] <Love4Fawkes> I don't think the wizarding world sees much wrong with legimens in certain cases [18:57] <ltbrave23> with what your saying [18:57] <Howie_64> Well, i gotta go, my messages aren't being sent quick enough, see ya [18:57] <MafaldaWeasley> DD used legimens because Kreature is sick and crazy...he needed to act fast [18:57] <huebbe> I think the only true counter curse is Love, which is what DD tells Harry indirectly [18:57] <ltbrave23> i doubt that was the only time he used it mafalda [18:57] <Aislinn> howie, it you type /reconnect, it sometimes helps [18:57] *** Howie_64 has quit [Bye] [18:57] <futureweasley> Are there any other exceptions, besides self-defense, in which these curses could be considered forgivable? [18:57] *** chocolateisnotforbreakfast has quit [Bye] [18:57] <Aislinn> yes, huebbe [18:57] *** Howie_64 has joined #lounge [18:58] *** Howie_64 has quit [Bye] [18:58] <fawkes28> no other circumstances can it be considered forgivable [18:58] *** cbm has joined #lounge [18:58] <stewiegryf> No, like I said before, there are other ways. [18:58] <huebbe> no, I believe no circumstances [18:58] <Aislinn> I don't think so [18:58] <Love4Fawkes> No, I cannot think of a valid reason to use an unforgivable curse [18:58] <Yasmina> I agree with you Aislinn....You cannot use an unforgivable...unless you're really intent to harm...Harry wasn't able to perform the crucio...no matter how angry he was [18:58] * cbm is coming to you tonight from exit 4 on the NJ Turnbike smile [18:58] <cbm> pike [18:58] <cbm> hi everyone! [18:58] <futureweasley> LOL cbm [18:58] <Aislinn> lol cbm [18:58] <futureweasley> love that wireless [18:58] <Poet> When transporting a prisoner from one place to another - I think imperius would be okay [18:58] <MafaldaWeasley> hi cbm [18:58] <fawkes28> hey cbm [18:59] <ltbrave23> it's never considered forgivable [18:59] <Aislinn> i disagree poet [18:59] *** Expelliarmas has joined #lounge [18:59] <fawkes28> hi expie [18:59] <ltbrave23> even a prisoner has the right to their free will [18:59] <Aislinn> why is it ok to take away a person's will, just for your own expedience? [18:59] <ltbrave23> as we have seen the magical justice system isn't perfect [18:59] <cbm> what was the ? [19:00] <Aislinn> we are talking about whether it is ever OK to use and Unforgivable Curse [19:00] <Love4Fawkes> that was an understatement ltbrave! [19:00] <Poet> <futureweasley> Are there any other exceptions, besides self-defense, in which these curses could be considered forgivable? [19:00] <Aislinn> and I think that it never is [19:00] <fawkes28> me either [19:00] *** Spown has joined #lounge [19:00] <Spown> hello [19:00] <Yasmina> me too [19:00] <cbm> I would call Our justice system not perfect, the magical one is a long way from that [19:00] <huebbe> I'm sure this has been said, but Harry can not perform them no matter how much he wants to, that is why JO told us in book 4, Harry will have to combat it in another way [19:00] <MafaldaWeasley> If you have a lunatic one, like Bella or Crouch Jr. that are extremely gifted wizards...you consider more human to leave them tormented by De,mentors? [19:00] <Love4Fawkes> I agree cbm\ [19:00] <Aislinn> that is a very true statement, ltbrave23 , and one of the reasons that people should never use those curses [19:00] <MafaldaWeasley> I'm sorry, I think the Dementors are 100% worst [19:01] <Spown> what is the topic question? [19:01] <cbm> Not that I can think of [19:01] <futureweasley> repeat for Spown... Are there any other exceptions, besides self-defense, in which these curses could be considered forgivable? [19:01] <Aislinn> I think the Dementors are horrible too mafalda, but it's not an either/or situation [19:01] <Yasmina> I don't think you can actually perform an unforgivable unless you intent harm...so I don't think imperio could be used to transport prizoners [19:01] <Aislinn> the Unforgivables are what the question is referring to, spown [19:01] <huebbe> agreed aislinn, that is why DD always stresses choices [19:01] <Spown> thank you, futureweasly. [19:01] <Aislinn> exactly, huebbe [19:02] <Expelliarmas> unforgivable curses require intent--they can't be cast accidentally [19:02] <MafaldaWeasley> I think Imperius is a lot more "nicier" by saying so, that having you being transported by Dementors, sucking your energy and your hapiness away... just sayin' [19:02] <Poet> I don't think you have to intend harm - just intend what the spell does [19:02] <Yasmina> agree expie [19:02] <Expelliarmas> with the UCs, you have to mean the harm [19:02] <Aislinn> yeah, but Dumbledore didn't agree that the Dementors should run the prison [19:02] <Aislinn> and they are no longer there [19:02] <futureweasley> Would Harry ever use any of the Unforgivable Curses under any circumstances? [19:02] <cbm> I consider them like our guns, there is no reason to use them on anybody except for self defense, but like our guns, is it OK for an Auror to use them when attacking DEs [19:02] <Yasmina> Harry couldn't do Crucio...no matter how much he wanted to hurt bella [19:02] <stewiegryf> gotta run...night all! [19:02] <ltbrave23> bellatrix said you have to want to cause and enjoy it [19:02] <Poet> Not successfully [19:02] *** stewiegryf left #lounge [] [19:02] <Aislinn> so, prisoners are now having to be transported in other ways [19:03] *** NYBookworm has joined #lounge [19:03] <huebbe> Harry has only really performed one really bad curse and that is the one from Half blood prince...the secuptra (sp) and even then he felt horrible doing it [19:03] <cbm> I think that there is no way Harry can use them [19:03] <Aislinn> i don't think that Harry would ever be successful at performing any of them, no [19:03] <Shard> Well he has tried to [19:03] *** Spown has quit [Bye] [19:03] <ltbrave23> i agree [19:03] <Aislinn> It is just not how he rolls [19:03] <Expelliarmas> if he or one of the trio were under imminent threat and the person causing the threat would not yield, then yes [19:03] <MafaldaWeasley> I don't think he will. I think he had seen what all 3 curses can do [19:03] <Shard> But I think he will never be sucessful [19:03] <fawkes28> i think he may try again with Snape but it wont work [19:03] <ltbrave23> he won't successfully use one [19:03] <Shard> Yes Aislinn he just rolls that way [19:03] <Poet> I agree fawkes28 [19:04] <cbm> But harry does not have the hate needed, even if his friends were in dire straights [19:04] <Love4Fawkes> I think Harry, still being a teenager, did not fully understand the effect of unforgiveable curses. When he truley understands what they require he won't even try [19:04] <Aislinn> I don't think he will ever, ever use one successfully - even in that circumstance, expie [19:04] <Yasmina> I agree [19:04] <Expelliarmas> I don't think you have to hate the subject ... you have to mean to cause harm [19:04] <MafaldaWeasley> I think it's impossible for himm cause he had seen his father's being AK, he had seen Neville's mom, and he saw Crouch Sr. I don't think he will ever forget that [19:05] <Poet> In a real magical world, a real Harry might do one in desperate times, but as Jo's character - no [19:05] <fawkes28> Harry is pure of heart [19:05] <Aislinn> and that would go against all of the lessons that Dumbledore tried to teach him, expie [19:05] <cbm> He meant to cause harm to bella and it did not work [19:05] <fawkes28> he wont be able to [19:05] <Yasmina> I think even real Moody wouldn't have been able to do the unforgivables in class [19:05] <Aislinn> He is better than that - his pure heart will find another way [19:05] <cbm> I think in order to mean it, you need hate in your heart [19:05] <Expelliarmas> he was too emotional to cause harm [19:05] <Love4Fawkes> he didn't reach way down and want to cause pain and agony with bella though [19:05] <futureweasley> he meant to hurt Snape...wasn't able to [19:05] <Aislinn> he is not meant to cause harm [19:05] <futureweasley> I think with Harry...maybe the third time is a charm [19:05] <futureweasley> no pun intended [19:06] <Aislinn> never [19:06] <ltbrave23> she said something along the lines that righteous anger wouldn't do it [19:06] <Yasmina> no [19:06] <Poet> yikes futureweasley [19:06] <Expelliarmas> I agree future [19:06] <cbm> I do not thing that if he reached down deep he would be able to find what is needed [19:06] <Punky> I don't think he'll try again, I think he knows that's not how it's going to work [19:06] <MafaldaWeasley> yes future! On that moment I thought abut sectumsempra...that could have been handy hehehe [19:06] <cbm> would NOT [19:06] <Poet> Harry's is righteous, so I guess no unforgivables for him [19:06] <Love4Fawkes> I don't think he would either cbm [19:06] <futureweasley> Whose idea do you think it was originally to teach the Unforgivable Curses to Harry's class: Dumbledore, Moody, or Barty Crouch Jr.? Why? [19:06] <Poet> Barty Jr [19:06] <Love4Fawkes> Barty Crouch Jr. [19:06] <MafaldaWeasley> Moody [19:06] <Yasmina> Barty [19:06] <cbm> I think Crouch [19:07] <Love4Fawkes> he thought it would be fun [19:07] <Expelliarmas> Jr. can't imagine why other than to evaluate Harry [19:07] <Aislinn> I think that it was a combination of Crouch and Dumbledore [19:07] <fawkes28> i think DD would have wanted Harry to know actually [19:07] <cbm> It should have been a clue for us and we all missed it [19:07] <Yasmina> yes recruit the new DE's [19:07] <Love4Fawkes> oh yes expie, i agree [19:07] <NYBookworm> Barty [19:07] <Poet> I think he wanted to see which kids he could use if necessary, and to keep other DE from controlling his prize [19:07] <fawkes28> it was one of his lessons - offf in the distance [19:07] <Punky> I agree love4, I think he enjoyed it and he learned from it [19:07] <cbm> I think Barty mentioned it and DD agreed [19:07] <NYBookworm> or at any rate I think it was his isea to actually use them [19:07] <Aislinn> I think that DD was very concerned that Harry learn all he could, and this was part of what he needed to learn [19:07] <Expelliarmas> I also think DD could have wanted it done; more combat training [19:07] <futureweasley> I think BCJ wanted to know if Harry could be imperiused This post has been edited by Poet: Mar 28 2007, 08:35 PM |
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Mar 28 2007, 08:35 PM
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Total Eclipse of the Elf Posts: 2,102 Joined: 4:47pm July 3, 2005 Location: Kansas City |
[19:08] <MafaldaWeasley> I think Moody would have taught the kids and Crouch Jr had a lot of time to torture him to get all info he need to teach . I think Moody and DD agreed on that matter
[19:08] <huebbe> honestly I think DD may have been behind it and told Crouch/Moody to do it [19:08] *** kaelgirl has quit [Bye] [19:08] <Love4Fawkes> DD had to have known it was going on. he knows everything about that castle [19:08] <Poet> true [19:08] <fawkes28> yes, i think DD wanted this to be part of his training [19:08] <Yasmina> I don't think DD interferes in what needs to be taught [19:08] <huebbe> absolutley [19:08] <Yasmina> he didn't do anything to Umbridge teaching [19:08] <MafaldaWeasley> with Umbridge he couldn't [19:08] <futureweasley> see, I'm not sure that DD really had anything to do with that...even teaching the Unforgivables, and having them performed on his STUDENTS...that's a stretch [19:09] <huebbe> How else could Harry have known about the horrors? And to see Neville's reaction [19:09] <cbm> DD was very hands off when it came to Harry's education [19:09] <Aislinn> he brought in the person he thought was moody in part for this reason [19:09] <fawkes28> he would have wanted harry to know - DD never follows the rules [19:09] <futureweasley> he educates Harry in different ways, I agree cbm [19:09] <huebbe> students, no I think Crouch did that one on his own [19:09] <Expelliarmas> I disagree, cbm, he knew what harry was being taught and also gave him lessons [19:09] <Aislinn> he may have seemed hands off, cbm [19:09] <ltbrave23> well i think dd was "hands off" but he was always in the shadows [19:09] <Aislinn> I think he was watching all of it [19:09] <cbm> He did not give him lessons until HBP [19:09] <Love4Fawkes> I agree ltbrave and aislinn [19:09] *** HPMommy has quit [Bye] [19:09] <Expelliarmas> he stepped in directly as needed [19:09] <Shard> So Barty did it on his own? [19:09] <MafaldaWeasley> yes, Aislinn. Moody was the right one for doing it. He was crazy enough and he knew Nevilles parents [19:09] <Shard> That's rather risky [19:10] <Yasmina> i agree with you cbm [19:10] <futureweasley> very passive, but I think that he was very involved...he was, however, seemingly hands off [19:10] <Shard> If DD found out what Barty/Moody was teaching [19:10] <Aislinn> I just think he has a different idea of what was important for Harry to learn than traditional education [19:10] <Love4Fawkes> I think barty did it on his own, but dd was aware of what was happening [19:10] <huebbe> yes mafa, Crouch targets each student appropriatley [19:10] <futureweasley> however, I think DD always had his fingers in Harry's educational pie is some way, shape or form [19:10] <cbm> I think it was Barty's idea and DD agreed to it [19:10] <Poet> There were little lessons for Harry in each book [19:10] <huebbe> agreed future [19:10] <Shard> I dunno I just woundlt have let Harry have experienced those spells, it made him stronger against it [19:10] <Yasmina> mayb DD learned about it afterwards....but he surely ddidn't agree about it [19:10] <Shard> Oh well Barty/Moody is a madman [19:10] <futureweasley> Why did fake!Moody keep putting Harry under the Imperius Curse until he could throw it off? [19:10] <Aislinn> fake moody said that DD wants you to learn this [19:11] <Shard> I dont know [19:11] <Shard> I think that was a mistake to do [19:11] <Expelliarmas> for kicks [19:11] <Aislinn> he would have known that statemtent could get back to DD [19:11] <futureweasley> BCJ wanted to know how far Harry could be pushed [19:11] <Love4Fawkes> that's true aislinn, i forgot about that [19:11] <MafaldaWeasley> he was testing Harry's powers [19:11] <huebbe> torture? [19:11] <Shard> But I guess he wanted to see how much it worked against Harry [19:11] <futureweasley> I think that he needed to know if Harry really COULD throw off the Imperius [19:11] <huebbe> having fun with LV future pet? [19:11] <Expelliarmas> and to evaluate [19:11] <Shard> So he could tell Voldemort how effective the spell would be against HArry [19:11] <Aislinn> I agree, mafalda [19:11] <Poet> Yes, I think he wanted to see Harry's limits [19:11] *** Joyhawk2121 has quit [Bye] [19:11] <Poet> So he'd know exactly what he was working with [19:11] <cbm> I think once harry threw it off, He needed to know have effective it was for voldemort [19:11] <Love4Fawkes> I think he was enjoying himself and wanted to evaluate Harry [19:11] <huebbe> yes [19:12] <Aislinn> he figured that his Master would finish him off anyway, so teaching him to throw off the Imperius would not have mattered to the final outcome [19:12] * cbm seems to agree with Aislinn quite a bit smile [19:12] <Yasmina> bc if he could control Harry with the imerius he would have been able to get him to Voldemort much sooner than at the end of the maze [19:12] <futureweasley> if Harry couldn't throw off the Imperius, BCJ's job would have been quite a bit easier that year [19:12] <Poet> With someone like Karkaroff around, it never hurts to teach your Hogwarts champion to throw off an imperius [19:12] <Expelliarmas> when he said, "they'll have trouble controlling you!" I think that indicated he was evaluating Harry [19:12] <Love4Fawkes> no, LV would have been pissed in barty hadn't followed the plan [19:12] <MafaldaWeasley> He was watching Harry so he could be sure Harry was making through the tasks. He didn't wnated Karkaroff to have Harry on Imperoious [19:12] <futureweasley> yes Expie...exactly [19:13] <cbm> I think that the maze was Voldemort making a grand statement also, not just nabbing harry [19:13] <ltbrave23> harry showed signs with the first time he put the curse on him that he could fight it [19:13] *** NYBookworm has quit [Bye] [19:13] <futureweasley> weighing and measuring Harry's magical ability [19:13] <ltbrave23> so why keep doing it until harry could throw it off [19:13] *** NYBookworm has joined #lounge [19:13] <MafaldaWeasley> I think Karkaroff was very good with the imperious thing on his golden days [19:13] <futureweasley> to see if he really could do it [19:13] <futureweasley> Is it ethical to use the Unforgivable Curses on students to teach them? [19:13] <fawkes28> i think he was fascinated by Harry [19:13] <cbm> Becasue he had to act like the real moody [19:13] *** CarpeDiem has joined #lounge [19:13] <ltbrave23> it seems that he was counteracting what they were trying to do [19:13] <fawkes28> hi carpe [19:13] *** Joyhawk2121 has joined #lounge [19:13] <Poet> No, but the Imperius worked to their good, didn't it? [19:13] <cbm> I did not think so [19:13] <futureweasley> personally, I think it was completely unethical...however, it helped them more than it hurt them [19:14] <Expelliarmas> in that instance, yes; for some kids, like Harry, that's how they learn. Hermione would have preferred theory [19:14] <Yasmina> no future [19:14] <Poet> hey Carpe [19:14] <MafaldaWeasley> difficult...in the end it helped, eh? [19:14] <fawkes28> i think - it is important for Harry to know definitely [19:14] <Love4Fawkes> hmm, good question fawkes [19:14] <Yasmina> I think comlpetly unethincal to use them for any reason [19:14] <Love4Fawkes> it was important to the story [19:14] <futureweasley> it was a bad situation that worked to their advantage, Yasmina [19:14] <Poet> Maybe someone studying to become an Auror should have the Imperius put on them especially - to teach them to fight it [19:15] <Yasmina> maybe...but it was till unethical... [19:15] <huebbe> kids are very much "let me see" not what can I learn from hearsay [19:15] <Love4Fawkes> it is unethical, but then again it was important [19:15] <futureweasley> I [20:13] <futureweasley> personally, I think it was completely unethical...however, it helped them more than it hurt them <---I agreed [19:15] <huebbe> that's how we all "learn the hard way" [19:15] <Punky> I don't think it's a situation where the end justifies the means though [19:15] <animaguscow> unethical, but useful. [19:15] <futureweasley> thank you animagus [19:16] <futureweasley> that's the point I was so ineloquently trying to make [19:16] <Yasmina> alright I agree with you [19:16] <futureweasley> lol [19:16] * futureweasley hugs Yasmina [19:16] <Yasmina> :) [19:16] <futureweasley> Bellatrix tells Harry about Unforgivable Curses in OotP, “You need to mean them, Potter! You need to really want to cause pain – to enjoy it….” Do you need to only enjoy causing pain to others or do you have to specifically hate the person you are cursing? [19:16] <Poet> Hating is not enough [19:17] <Expelliarmas> Hate has nothing to do with it [19:17] <Love4Fawkes> i agree poet [19:17] <huebbe> enjoyment [19:17] <futureweasley> it seems that the raw emotion of the thing isn't enough to pull it off [19:17] <NYBookworm> I think for crutiatis to be effective you would have to really enjoy using it [19:17] <Expelliarmas> you have to mean to cause the harm [19:17] <Love4Fawkes> and expie, you have to really want to see the pain [19:17] <Poet> Cruico causes pain, so you have to intend pain - and it seems you have to enjoy it as well [19:17] <huebbe> taking pleasure in someone elses pain [19:17] <MafaldaWeasley> yeah, I agree that ahting is not enough. You must feel that you're achieving what you want by causing harm [19:17] <futureweasley> you have to want to taste your victims displeasure [19:17] <Expelliarmas> true l4f [19:17] <Aislinn> I think that enjoying hurting others is the key [19:17] <fawkes28> definitely need to enjoy causing pain [19:18] *** deenieravenclaw has joined #lounge [19:18] <Poet> Yes, because that's what that curse does - caused pain beyond pain [19:18] <ltbrave23> i agree for the cruciatus aislinn [19:18] <MafaldaWeasley> You must be that selfish [19:18] <CarpeDiem> I thought of it as a polar opposite of the Patronus spell. It has to be hate wrapped up with cruitly and a bunch of terrible feelings. [19:18] *** deenieravenclaw has quit [Bye] [19:18] <fawkes28> i dont know if you necessarily hate the person though [19:18] <ltbrave23> and for the ak [19:18] <Yasmina> yes...I think so too Aislinn....you need a twisted mind [19:18] <Love4Fawkes> sorry expie, I meant i agreed with you that hate has nothing to do with it [19:18] <cbm> but if you want to cause pain to someone, it is definately not someone you like [19:18] <ltbrave23> but i think hate is required for the ak [19:18] <Aislinn> yes, carpe [19:18] <futureweasley> wow Carpe...that's a very estute observation [19:18] <huebbe> beautifully put [19:18] <cbm> I totally agree carpe! [19:18] <Yasmina> great description carpe [19:19] <Love4Fawkes> that makes complete sense carpe [19:19] <futureweasley> I don't know...it's the difference between feeling wrapped in a warm blanket, and having ice water run through your veins [19:19] <Expelliarmas> i don't think bellatrix knew anything about the longbottoms to hate them; she just gets a kick from causing pain [19:19] <huebbe> Jo has so many mirror images, why not this one as well? [19:19] <futureweasley> too true, huebbe [19:19] <CarpeDiem> Yes, both are very powerful emotions. It's all about what you choose to concentrate on and channel. [19:20] <cbm> She hated them because of what they were, not who they were [19:20] <Aislinn> and to put people under the Imperius you have to have a complete disregard for them as a human being, for their dignity or self determination [19:20] <Love4Fawkes> yup i think bellatrix could preform the curse on anyone [19:20] <huebbe> again...good ol DD...it's all about choices [19:20] <Aislinn> that is intent to cause harm [19:20] <futureweasley> right [19:20] <futureweasley> Does experience matter when you are casting an Unforgivable Curse or can any full grown adult do it with some degree of ease? [19:20] <Poet> I agree. The intent of the AK is to kill, so you have to want very badly to kill. Intent of Crucio to hurt - so you have to want very badly to hurt the person [19:20] <Yasmina> it alwys comes back to that [19:20] <Yasmina> intent [19:20] <futureweasley> yes Poet...intent is crazy important [19:20] <Love4Fawkes> i think experience matters [19:21] <Expelliarmas> a newbie could cast it with the right emotion [19:21] <futureweasley> I don't... [19:21] <MafaldaWeasley> I think you must have an onbjective to cast those curses, they cannot be casted at random, for one feeling alone [19:21] *** etnutter has joined #lounge [19:21] <cbm> I think so, I think they also have practiced it quite a bit [19:21] <etnutter> Hello Aislinn - big news today huh? [19:21] <fawkes28> i dont think Arthur could do it with ease at all [19:21] <Expelliarmas> Tom Riddle likely had no problems casting it the first time [19:21] <huebbe> I don't think experience has much to do with it, it is just has to do with evil within...think malfoy the elder [19:21] <Poet> I etnutter - we're discussing light and dark magic in the first 6 Harry Potter books [19:21] <CarpeDiem> I think the unforgivables, while dark magic, are still magic. I think there has to be a certain law of magic that it has to follow. Harry had to learn and practce before he was ablt to produce a working patronus. [19:21] <Love4Fawkes> i bet tom riddle even had to practice [19:21] <Aislinn> hi etnutter, yes it was! Right now, we're talking light and dark magic smile [19:21] <futureweasley> the only reason I say that is, BCJ went to Azkaban for Crucioing the sense out of the Longbottoms...do you think he had done that a hundred times before? [19:21] <MafaldaWeasley> Yes, expie, cause he has an objective [19:21] <Yasmina> i agree with you huebe....you just need to be pure evil [19:22] <etnutter> Ever hear what CS Lewis had to say on the topic? [19:22] <cbm> Just like Harry can now cast a patronus much easier, I would guess the unforgivable would get easier with practice [19:22] <huebbe> too right [19:22] <CarpeDiem> Exactly, cbm. [19:22] <Love4Fawkes> and harry had to practice a lot before he could produce even a silver wisp [19:22] <huebbe> look at Draco, no experience...but he also didn't really want harm to come to DD therefore couldn't do it [19:23] <Expelliarmas> but Draco had no problem casting Imperius [19:23] <ltbrave23> well draco didn't attempt it either, though i don't think he could have done it [19:23] <Love4Fawkes> no one expected draco to really be able to do it [19:23] <cbm> I wonder if the crucio from draco would have worked in the bathroom [19:23] <MafaldaWeasley> Harry had to have a very strong will to protect and to do something good to be able to cast a Patronus. He had a poiint on doing so [19:23] <Aislinn> fakeMoody said the AK takes a "powerful bit of magic" [19:23] <Aislinn> I think there is skill, as well as intent involved [19:24] <fawkes28> DE's just use these spells without thinking so to some degree it is experience [19:24] <Expelliarmas> there are different levels of experience necessary for the 3 different spells,imo [19:24] <CarpeDiem> Would the real Moody have had such control of the unforgivables as the fake did? Would he have had the same cirriculum do you think? I think fake moddy probably had more expereince with the Unforgivables. [19:24] <Love4Fawkes> that makes sense expie [19:24] <cbm> I agree Carpe [19:24] <Aislinn> fake probably did, carpe [19:24] <Yasmina> yes but experince isn't enough...to make you able to do them... [19:24] <Aislinn> although the real moody was certainly exposed to them all during his career [19:25] <Aislinn> right, yasmina - it takes knowledge, practice, and intent [19:25] <etnutter> I think to cast an AK - like the patronus charm, you need to package up all your hatred and cast it at someone [19:25] <MafaldaWeasley> I think Moody can do all and he was fabulous Auror before going a bit wacko [19:25] <futureweasley> Are hexes considered Dark Magic? [19:25] <huebbe> I think the key lies in the intent, not the experience [19:25] <cbm> So did barty jr hate the spider? [19:25] <futureweasley> I don't know...that bat-bogey thing is just wrong... [19:25] <huebbe> no [19:25] <Poet> Not necessarilty - not the way Jo described them [19:25] <Love4Fawkes> no, but he had intent [19:26] <Aislinn> I think he had a complete indifference to it having the right to live, cbm [19:26] <Expelliarmas> they can be; depends on the result [19:26] <futureweasley> I would definitely say they have the potential to be dark [19:26] <huebbe> they are not the best but they aren't great either [19:26] <Poet> The are a little darker grey, but not black [19:26] <CarpeDiem> lol future, gotta keep on Ginny's good side smile [19:26] <fawkes28> i think it depends on the intent - i dont know if they can necessarily be considered dark magic [19:26] <futureweasley> yes indeed Carpe [19:26] <Yasmina> I agree with you future...but they aren't necessarily dark [19:26] <cbm> Maybe it is just like a baseball bat, it depends on how you use it [19:26] <huebbe> sorry must go, children are loosing their minds! [19:26] <Aislinn> right, Poet - I see the magic as landing at varying points along a continuum [19:26] <futureweasley> bye huebbe [19:26] <Expelliarmas> bye, huebbe [19:26] <etnutter> Bat bogey is a combination of a charm and transfiguration [19:26] <huebbe> bye all [19:26] *** huebbe has quit [Bye] [19:26] <Yasmina> bye [19:26] <Joyhawk2121> bye [19:26] <Aislinn> the hexes are down into the gray area, but not black [19:26] <futureweasley> urm, I don't think that's true etnutter [19:27] <futureweasley> it's not a charm [19:27] <Love4Fawkes> hexes are hexes, a type of magic all there own\ [19:27] <futureweasley> it's a hex [19:27] <futureweasley> and I don't think that one's nose is being transformed [19:27] <CarpeDiem> Yes, again, intent goes a long way with hexes as well. I wonder if the amount of dammage caused is controllable by the caster. So there are different levels of the Bat-Bogey hex, depending on how mad Gunny gets. [19:27] <Poet> I think they are mild to moderate un-niceness - hexes are like fighting on the playground [19:27] <cbm> Has JKR ever told us what is what? [19:27] <Aislinn> I think there probably is, Carpe [19:27] <etnutter> How do you destinguish grey from brown and white from black? what is the criteria besides intent - I could use a white spell with bad intent...doesn't make it black magic, just me as manipulative [19:27] <cbm> If so, I would love to see it [19:27] *** QueenBeee has joined #lounge [19:27] <Yasmina> what other hexes do we know other than the bat bogey...i can't even remember any? [19:28] <Love4Fawkes> i think i remember reading something on jkrowling's site about spells, but i can't remember what it said [19:28] <Aislinn> Look at even how the Expelliarmus can have a different impact, depending on how it is cast [19:28] <futureweasley> leg locker [19:28] <CarpeDiem> Good point! [19:28] <futureweasley> jelly legs [19:28] <Poet> Right etnutter - we were discussing that for the first 30 minutes or so [19:28] <futureweasley> all naughty and mean [19:28] <MafaldaWeasley> yes Aislinn [19:28] * Expelliarmas loves Expelliarmus *sniff* [19:28] <Aislinn> lol [19:28] <cbm> lol [19:28] <etnutter> can anyone update me on the position, or .....is it too late.... [19:28] <futureweasley> Where do jinxes fall under the Dark and Light Magic spectrum? [19:29] <CarpeDiem> When Snape cast Expell at Lockhart he flew across the dueling table, didn't he? A disarming spell canbe dangerous if used the wrong way [19:29] <cbm> I think they on the middle depending on intent [19:29] <fawkes28> definitely dark magic [19:29] <etnutter> you could use a jinx for a good reason, like cheering someone up... [19:29] <Yasmina> those 2 could be used in defemse - future....so I would imagine they're not dark magic [19:29] <Aislinn> right, and the kids knocked him out in the Shrieking Shack [19:29] <Aislinn> which he richly deserved, in that moment smile [19:29] <Yasmina> yes but we agree that light magic could do harm...didn't we? [19:30] <etnutter> every moment [19:30] <CarpeDiem> lol couldn't agree with you more, Aislinn smile [19:30] <ltbrave23> deserved is rather harsh.....he just needed to be calmed down that's all [19:30] <cbm> too bad snape was not in front of a window or the stairs [19:31] <Aislinn> hahaha, cbm [19:31] <Yasmina> lol cbm [19:31] <MafaldaWeasley> yeah CBM, couldn't agree more [19:31] <cbm> snape was totally irrational that night [19:31] <Aislinn> I'm having trouble remembering jinxes at this point [19:31] <futureweasley> Is there a difference between the terms Dark Arts and Dark Magic or are they one and the same? [19:31] <CarpeDiem> There has to be slight differences but when you put them next to each other it's hard to differentiate a spell, charm, hex, and jinx...at least in my mind they sorta bleed together. [19:31] <Aislinn> yes, carpe [19:31] <Yasmina> he desrved it ...i could never forgive for killing DD [19:31] <etnutter> What about Tarantala - it could have been invented to help with dancing lessons [19:31] <cbm> They bleed together for me also [19:32] <Love4Fawkes> according to jkr's site "jinx" refers to spells that are irratitating but amusing [19:32] *** QueenBeee has quit [Bye] [19:32] <Aislinn> I think the Dark Arts is the study of Dark magic [19:32] <futureweasley> well, I see arts more like the blueprints, and magic the application [19:32] <futureweasley> right Aislinn...I totally agree [19:32] <ltbrave23> i agree future [19:32] <etnutter> But the study defense against dark arts not dark arts. [19:32] <CarpeDiem> Dark arts and Dark magic...another overlapping term in my mind. Perhaps Dark Arts uncludes things such as potions and objects where magic is strictly curses and the like. [19:32] <Yasmina> I agree too Aislinn [19:32] <cbm> But does the study of, also involve use of the dark arts? [19:33] <cbm> Never mind [19:33] <MafaldaWeasley> It can be Carpe [19:33] <futureweasley> dark magic carries out the intentions of the dark arts [19:33] <futureweasley> it's a vehicle [19:33] <Love4Fawkes> That's how I see it Carpe [19:33] <Aislinn> yes, future [19:33] <CarpeDiem> So future, the way you explain it, dark arts is the practice of all things dark...including magic [19:33] <etnutter> To me, the courses are an analogy to real courses - potions is chemistry, transfig is physics, charms is literature and languages, but DADA is psychology and philosophy and maybe even theology....no? [19:33] <ltbrave23> i agree future [19:34] <futureweasley> right...kind of [19:34] <CarpeDiem> lol yes...it's not especially clear but I think I see where you're going. smile [19:34] <futureweasley> dark arts is the class, dark magic is the skill...does that make sense? [19:34] <cbm> So it is OK to learn what the dark arts do, but not all right to pratice them? [19:34] <fawkes28> dark arts seems like a more general term [19:34] <Yasmina> yes future [19:34] <ltbrave23> well i think that in order to defend against the dark arts properly you have to have some understanding of the dark arts [19:35] <Expelliarmas> At Hogwarts, cbm, but not necessarily at other schools like Durmstrang [19:35] <etnutter> YOu must learn what they do because eventually you will have to defend yourself from them [19:35] <Punky> Dark arts could also be more the explanation of dark magic, if there is such a thing [19:35] <cbm> Well they did learn about a bunch of nasty creatures [19:35] <Aislinn> sort of the philosophy or theory of it, punky? [19:35] <CarpeDiem> Yes, I think you're right Punky. In order to defend against something you should really understand it from top to bottom [19:35] <futureweasley> yes, Punky...I get that...I think that ties into the whole theory that the Arts are the instruction manual of the magic [19:35] <etnutter> not just creatures, though - afterall - Boggarts exist! [19:35] <Punky> Right Aislinn [19:36] <Aislinn> yeah, that makes sense [19:36] <futureweasley> The Memory Charm takes away either part of all of a person’s memory. Where do you see this charm falling on the Light/Dark spectrum? [19:36] <cbm> I think it is VERY close to the dark end of the spectrum [19:36] <etnutter> AS a medicine as a light, but for deliterius purposes dark [19:36] <Yasmina> I think's dark grewy [19:36] <Love4Fawkes> oh its used for so many reasons that's hard to say [19:36] <Expelliarmas> that's an evil spell; Lockhart deserved to go to Azkaban. It's a step beyond Imperious [19:36] <Aislinn> I agree, Yasmina [19:37] <etnutter> All dark arts are perversions of light ones [19:37] <cbm> my memories are my own, and it should be a crime for anyody to take them away! [19:37] <Expelliarmas> taking away someone's memory is a terrible thing to do [19:37] <Love4Fawkes> I agree that lochart used it with evil intent, but what about the MoM using it to keep the wizarding world a secret [19:37] <Aislinn> It troubles me that the Ministry is so free with using this charm on Muggles [19:37] <etnutter> I could do with forgetting a couple of things [19:37] <CarpeDiem> That's morally grey area. Similar to a police officer who has the ability to shoot someone. The ability does not necessarily make it right. There are right and wrong times for acts such as a memory charm. [19:37] <futureweasley> I hate that too, Aislinn...it's not right [19:38] <Expelliarmas> if someone wanted to forget something, the individual could likely use a potion; but that spell has such a potential for abuse [19:38] <ltbrave23> it has troubled me as well aislinn [19:38] <cbm> All of my memories have made me what I am today, so if you take them away, I am no longer the same [19:38] <Expelliarmas> yes, they call it a modification of someone's memory [19:38] <futureweasley> I think it should be about the person's choices [19:38] <Aislinn> it seems to be just an acceptable way of acting, but it seems so dismissive of another person's right to their own thoughts and memories [19:38] <Expelliarmas> who knows how much harm that causes [19:38] <futureweasley> and if someone wants to remember something, they have that right [19:38] <Yasmina> Yes....I agree...but i understand why the ministry need to use them on muggles from time to time...if very carefully applied they might be used in very specifiic situation as [19:38] <Yasmina> light [19:38] <CarpeDiem> I agree Aislinn! It would be interesting to see what sort of laws govern the use of the memory charms. On muggles vs. wizarding folk. [19:38] <Love4Fawkes> it seems to cause a lot of harm sometimes [19:38] <futureweasley> after all, they witnessed it [19:38] <Aislinn> but it doesn't seem to be that carefully applied [19:38] <etnutter> Muggles would just as soon not know about hte magic world though....the charm is to correct a mistake [19:39] <Poet> etnutter - click on that button next to "#lounge" that has my name on it - I tried to answer your question from earlier smile [19:39] <cbm> It is a taking away of part of your self and I think it is a horrible thing to do [19:39] <Expelliarmas> Remember poor Mr. Roberts? He was a mess after getting obliviate caused on him [19:39] <Love4Fawkes> it is necessary on muggles to hide the wizarding world [19:39] <Aislinn> not always, etnutter [19:39] <cbm> Look at the what they did to the camp manager, i wonder how long it took him to recover [19:39] <cbm> at the world cup [19:40] <Expelliarmas> *cast [19:40] <futureweasley> Love is a huge theme in the Harry Potter Series – a power that the Dark Lord knows not. There are many different types and degrees of love, and it is seen as a positive force. Therefore, is love considered only to be Light Magic? [19:40] <Love4Fawkes> that's what I was thinking of expie and cbm. someone said that they made him forget a very large thing [19:40] <Love4Fawkes> that's why he was messed up [19:40] <fawkes28> no, i don't think the Love potion is good at all [19:40] <Expelliarmas> obsessive love can be dangerous too, look at Merope [19:40] <fawkes28> i think that should be considered Dark magic [19:40] <fawkes28> it has evil intent [19:40] <Yasmina> I agree fawkes...it'like imperius [19:40] <etnutter> Poet, I got you notes, thank you [19:40] <CarpeDiem> ...and Bellatrix too, fawkes smile [19:40] <Expelliarmas> look at what romilda vane did to Ron [19:41] <fawkes28> lol [19:41] <animaguscow> I agree [19:41] <cbm> I did not think a love potion caused real love, [19:41] <etnutter> Love potions are very very conflicted between Romilda using it and the Twins creating a good version of it [19:41] *** Aislinn has quit [Bye] [19:41] *** Aislinn has joined #lounge [19:41] <fawkes28> it is obsessive love [19:41] <Expelliarmas> it can't, cbm, Tom, Sr. sure wasnt happy when he came out of his love potion trance [19:41] *** Shard has quit [Bye] [19:41] <ltbrave23> a powerful love potion takes away free will just as the imperius curse does [19:41] <CarpeDiem> Love is a powerful emotion though. It comes again to choices. How do you use that emotion? For good or evil? [19:41] <cbm> I thought it caused an obsessive lust [19:42] <Love4Fawkes> love potions don't create reall love though [19:42] <fawkes28> yes, ltbrave23 [19:42] <Yasmina> it makes you do things against your will [19:42] *** MafaldaWeasley has quit [Bye] [19:42] <cbm> I really need my books, slughorn talked about what it did in HBP [19:42] <Aislinn> yes, I agree that it takes away free will [19:42] <fawkes28> however, sacrificial love is one of the purest forms of Light Magic [19:42] *** fawkes28 has quit [Bye] [19:42] *** fawkes28 has joined #lounge [19:42] <cbm> the twins sold a 24 hour variety [19:42] <etnutter> Does a love potion really take away free will? [19:43] *** cbm has quit [Bye] [19:43] <Aislinn> it sure took it away from Ron [19:43] *** cbm has joined #lounge [19:43] <ltbrave23> yes i think it does [19:43] <CarpeDiem> What about the patronus? Is that a sort of "Love Spell" as well? [19:43] <ltbrave23> i powerful one does [19:43] <Yasmina> and tom riddle sr [19:43] <ltbrave23> ron, tom sr. [19:43] <Aislinn> he was totally out of control of himself while he was under the influence of that potion [19:43] <CarpeDiem> Can love be used to conjur a patronus? It certainly can be a happy feeling. [19:43] <cbm> but the patronus do no harm to anyone [19:43] <etnutter> Ron had a weak will, though...if someone had a strong will, could they resist the desires and still act rightly? [19:43] <Aislinn> I think that the Patronus is an embodiment of love [19:44] <CarpeDiem> We don't know that for sure just yet, cbm ;) [19:44] <Yasmina> Yes, I think it does Carpe [19:44] <Aislinn> but it is not placing a charm or effect on another [19:44] <cbm> I like that Aislinn [19:44] <Love4Fawkes> Love in its purest form is light magic. Love potions do not create real love [19:44] <ltbrave23> the patronus is one of the purest forms of magic we have seen [19:44] <Aislinn> I agree ltbrave23 [19:44] <Expelliarmas> it was not about Ron's will--he got a large dose of the love potion [19:44] <etnutter> IF harry can overcome the imperious curse with a force of will, couldn't you use force of will to do the right thing regardless of how powerfully you are feeling something? [19:44] <cbm> The only person I think a patronus may harm to Voldemort [19:44] <Aislinn> possibly, etnutter [19:45] <Love4Fawkes> that's an interesting idea cbm [19:45] <Yasmina> interesting though [19:45] <etnutter> choices, no/ Ron had a choice to listen to harry or hit him when he spoke disparagingly of romilda [19:45] <Yasmina> thought [19:45] <CarpeDiem> Exactly, cbm! smile [19:45] <cbm> I think that is what carpe was hinting at [19:45] <cbm> so give hi credit [19:45] <cbm> him [19:45] <Expelliarmas> no, etnutter, he was under an overdose of love potion [19:45] <Expelliarmas> his will was overcome by the overdose [19:45] <Poet> Only 15 minutes left, everyone! This has been a great chat! The transcript for this chat can be found later today in the Corner Booth Forum: http://www.leakylounge.com/Corner-Booth-f184.html. And don't forget to vote in the latest poll for the next WWW chat here: http://www.leakylounge.com/WWW-topic-poll-4-4-t42300.html [19:46] <cbm> It was an out of date potion that became more powerful [19:46] <etnutter> THe potion gave him a powerful feeling, but did not remove his ability to choose, I think [19:46] <futureweasley> Fred and George have created many products for their business. Do you consider these products to fall more into the Light or Dark category of magic? [19:46] <cbm> I think it depends on use [19:46] <Love4Fawkes> they are grey [19:46] <Yasmina> I would assume it is a grey area... [19:46] <Expelliarmas> again, I disagree, etnutter. the whole point of the love potion is to overcome the will of the drinker [19:46] <etnutter> Dark Future, as some forms of humor are dark....the twins are conflicted... [19:46] <Yasmina> I agree with cbm...it depends on the use and intent [19:47] <Aislinn> I think they have productst that are along a spectrum [19:47] <Expelliarmas> typically a light magic, but used the wrong way--peruvian powder--it can go dark [19:47] <CarpeDiem> Because of their humorous intent, I would categorize them from light to grey. But yes, as cbm mentioned, in the wrong hands anything can be used for evil. [19:47] *** artemis_gryffinclaw has joined #lounge [19:47] <animaguscow> depens on thr product and how it's used. [19:47] <fawkes28> i think their intent is good so i think they fall more into the light category [19:47] <etnutter> Expell....Like peruvian dark powder [19:47] <Poet> Joke magic, even in the Muggle world can be funny ...all the way down to semi-cruel [19:47] <Yasmina> maybe that's why they are called Dark Arts...you can be quite creative [19:47] *** NYBookworm has quit [Bye] [19:47] <cbm> I like my baseball bat analogy, great on a ball field, bad in a fight [19:47] <Love4Fawkes> the products are meant to be funny, but in the wrong hands can be quite dark [19:47] <Poet> I like that thought Yasmina [19:48] <Poet> Even Snape said so [19:48] <CarpeDiem> Oh! Very true cbm. [19:48] <Aislinn> I think that the peruvian darness powder is a neutral product, and that it is totally intent that makes its use light or dark [19:48] <Love4Fawkes> i like that analogy too cbm [19:48] <Poet> Yep, I totally agree Aislinn just like with Accio [19:48] <Aislinn> yes [19:48] <cbm> Think of accio on a knife with someone standing in front of you [19:48] <Expelliarmas> intent carries the day with a lot of the twins' products; when the MoM uses their products, they are using them defensively [19:49] <Aislinn> many of their products in the back room are meant to be defensive - yes, what expie said [19:49] <futureweasley> If an object is used magically by a wizard to harm someone, is that object inherently Dark? [19:49] <Aislinn> not inherently [19:49] <Poet> No, just the wizard [19:49] <Expelliarmas> no, the wizard is inherently Dark [19:49] <CarpeDiem> Inherintly? No, I don't think so. [19:49] <cbm> No, the person cause the harm is dark [19:49] <Aislinn> it depends on the object [19:49] <Love4Fawkes> no, the wizard is dark [19:49] <etnutter> What is a good use of Perudarkpowerder? [19:49] <Expelliarmas> the object is an instrument to affect the wizard's intent [19:49] <Aislinn> if there were no non-harmful use of the product, it would be a dark object [19:49] <Love4Fawkes> unless the only way to use the object would be to cause harm, then the object would be dark [19:50] <Aislinn> Like the necklace that Katie touched [19:50] <fawkes28> no, the object is not [19:50] <CarpeDiem> Yes, it depends on the object, the wizard, and the intent. Again, choices. [19:50] <fawkes28> it is the person [19:50] <Yasmina> definitely the wizard...but it is interesting...thta most objects used for dark magic...have similar symbols on them...like the snake [19:50] * cbm may be cut off at any time as my battery is getting low, so good bye in advance [19:50] <Love4Fawkes> exactly aislinn, that neclace was dark. most of the objects in b & b were dark [19:50] <Aislinn> for self protection, etnutter - to get away from an attack in a non-violent way [19:50] <Poet> bye cbm [19:50] <CarpeDiem> What about the bludger that Dobby jinxed (hexed?). Neither Dobby nor the bludger were inherently dark, were they? [19:51] <CarpeDiem> See ya cbm [19:51] <Aislinn> nice you could join us cbm, even on the road smile [19:51] <cbm> I needed a break from driving home [19:51] <Expelliarmas> no, but Dobby did not intend to harm Harry Potter [19:51] <Love4Fawkes> this is a nice way to enjoy a break [19:51] <Aislinn> agreed, carpe [19:51] <Poet> Right Carpe - but Dobby gets carried away in his methods usually [19:51] <Love4Fawkes> jinxes and hexes are gray areas [19:51] <Expelliarmas> that it went totally awry, well, poor Dobby [19:51] <Yasmina> But maybe certain stones...or material...that transmits dark magic easily [19:52] <Aislinn> actually, Dobby did intend to harm him - send him home "greviously injured" in a misguided attempt to save him [19:52] <Expelliarmas> poor Dobby [19:52] <futureweasley> The infamous Sectumsempra Curse is not considered an Unforgivable Curse. Is there any circumstance in which this curse could be considered Light Magic? [19:52] <cbm> I think misguided is being nice [19:52] <Love4Fawkes> yes, but his intent was still good [19:52] <etnutter> It ought to be considered an unforgivable curse, no/ [19:52] <Poet> You could use it to cut food or to cut someone's ropes if they were tied up [19:52] <Aislinn> I don't think so [19:52] <fawkes28> nope never ever [19:52] <Love4Fawkes> i cannot think of any case that the sectumsempra would be light magic! [19:52] <Yasmina> I can't think of any [19:52] <etnutter> Or carve up a steer [19:52] <Expelliarmas> It's not considered a UC, in my opinion, because the MoM doesn't really know about it [19:52] <CarpeDiem> I can't think of a place where bloodshed can be considered light magic. [19:53] <Poet> You could use it for a haircut [19:53] <Aislinn> I agree, expie [19:53] <Poet> Or for magical surgery [19:53] <Aislinn> it is meant to be used on a body, poet [19:53] <cbm> I do not think that this could ever be light, but it obviously can be done by a light wizard [19:53] <Expelliarmas> I don't think Snape ever got around to using that one as Harry did [19:53] <Love4Fawkes> I don't think the intent would allow it to be used for surgery [19:53] <Yasmina> I agree Love4fawkes [19:53] <cbm> I think he tried it in his worst memory when he cut james cheek [19:53] <Aislinn> I agree that it is not meant for anything but the purpose for which it was created, to attack enemies [19:54] <CarpeDiem> I think he would have had to Expelliarmas. Otherwise how do you know it works? [19:54] <Expelliarmas> like I said, he did not use it as Harry did [19:54] <etnutter> stick with a scalpal [19:54] <Love4Fawkes> lol. . . wizards don't normally do surgery [19:54] <Aislinn> right - they have other means [19:54] <cbm> He was not successful, I do not think he figured it out until 6th year, as that is the year for the book [19:55] <etnutter> He made it for James, hoping for a someday [19:55] <CarpeDiem> Yet he recognized the damage that it caused immediately? Did he perhaps hear Harry cast it? Or is he familiar with the ramifications? [19:55] <Expelliarmas> he had his someday. He did not, however, cast it with the same impact as Harry did to Draco [19:55] <futureweasley> Rules are always changing and evolving. How similar/different do you think Dark Magic was in the Founder’s day versus the present day? [19:55] <cbm> I think he recognized it, which means he has seen it cast [19:55] <Aislinn> and James was turning away, so he missed [19:55] <Expelliarmas> He might have practiced that nasty spell later on, Carpe [19:56] <Poet> People wanted to do something terrible and researched and experimented to come up with spells to do it most effectively - I think the same is today, but not as many people experimenting now [19:56] <Yasmina> I thought he used legilimency to know carpe [19:56] <CarpeDiem> I think so too Expelliarmas [19:56] <Expelliarmas> I think the 3 UCs were around in the Founders' Day [19:56] <Aislinn> I think that there are spells that have been invented since that early time, but there have always been ways that people have used magic to help or harm [19:56] <Aislinn> it is human nature [19:56] <etnutter> Dark magic is coincident with morality - which ought to be eternal, not temporal. no? [19:57] <Love4Fawkes> what people consider moral and immoral changes with the times [19:57] *** Joyhawk2121 has quit [Bye] [19:57] <Punky> I think the magic may be more intense now, what existed before has had time to evolve as well [19:57] <futureweasley> good chat everyone, sorry I have to go a couple minutes early. Y'all rock, talk to you soon [19:57] <Poet> Book 6, Snape said Dark Magic is ever changing, so I think people will always come up with new ways to be cruel [19:57] *** futureweasley left #lounge [] [19:57] <CarpeDiem> I have a feeling that both light and dark sides of magic have borrowed from each other over the years. Something that may have been considered dark (memory charm?) may now have uses that are needed so it is ruled an allowable curse. [19:58] *** Joyhawk2121 has joined #lounge [19:58] <Love4Fawkes> i agree carpe [19:58] <Yasmina> I agree etnutter...i think what was dark magic at that time is still dark magic. [19:58] <Poet> The next chat is on Saturday from 1 to 3pm Eastern U.S. time. We're discussing Order of the Phoenix chapters 7-8. See you all then! [19:58] <Expelliarmas> woot! [19:58] *** artemis_gryffinclaw has quit [Bye] [19:58] <CarpeDiem> Cool! Thanks for the chat all! [19:58] <etnutter> Especially from founders to now, I recognize Lovefawkes comment as a valid argument, but disagree with it [19:58] <Yasmina> bye...thanks [19:59] <Joyhawk2121> bye [19:59] <Poet> bye [19:59] <CarpeDiem> Wonderful questions, CB mods. Thanks! [19:59] *** ltbrave23 left #lounge [] [19:59] <CarpeDiem> Bye! [19:59] <Aislinn> thanks for a great discussion, everyone [19:59] <Punky> Thank you for the chat! [19:59] *** CarpeDiem has quit [Bye] [19:59] <Expelliarmas> see you guys later! [19:59] *** animaguscow left #lounge [] [19:59] <fawkes28> thanks for coming [19:59] <Poet> cheers [19:59] *** Joyhawk2121 left #lounge [] [19:59] *** Yasmina left #lounge [] [19:59] <etnutter> wish you did this every night! bye [19:59] <Love4Fawkes> bye everyone, i love these chats!! [19:59] *** Punky has quit [Bye] [19:59] * Poet waves [19:59] <Expelliarmas> bye, l4f [20:00] *** etnutter left #lounge [] [20:00] <Aislinn> see you all soon! |
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