WWW Corner Booth Transcript: Apr 18, 2007, Horcruxes, Redemption and Sacrifice |
 Apr 18 2007, 08:22 PM
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Chief Cat Herder  Posts: 3,514 Joined: 10:28am August 6, 2005 Location: In the Corner Booth - home of the elusive Holy Grain!    |
Moderators: futureweasley, aislinn, fawkes28, expelliarmas
[18:58] *** Aislinn has joined #lounge [18:58] *** futureweasley has joined #lounge [18:58] <Aislinn> !topic Horcruxes, Redemption, and Sacrifice [18:58] *** Snuffles changed the topic to: Horcruxes, Redemption, and Sacrifice (Aislinn) [18:58] <Expelliarmas> heya, peeps [18:58] <futureweasley> hiya [19:00] *** MafaldaWeasley has joined #lounge [19:01] <MafaldaWeasley> aww! I can see I arrived early today! [19:01] *** cbm has joined #lounge [19:01] <cbm> Hi everyone! [19:01] <MafaldaWeasley> hi cbm! we are arriving early today [19:01] <Aislinn> hi folks! [19:01] *** BrettMac has joined #lounge [19:01] <futureweasley> hi everyone! [19:01] <MafaldaWeasley> hey aislinn! how are you guys? [19:01] <BrettMac> hey everyone! [19:01] <MafaldaWeasley> hey future! [19:01] <MafaldaWeasley> hey brett [19:02] *** ProngsPatronus has joined #lounge [19:02] <MafaldaWeasley> it's a good topic today...I won't be able to stay till the end sad [19:02] <ProngsPatronus> hello, all! [19:03] <futureweasley> hi Prongs! [19:03] *** fawkes28 has joined #lounge [19:03] <futureweasley> oh no, Mafalda! [19:03] <futureweasley> I hate when that happens! [19:03] <cbm> It is a good topic [19:04] <ProngsPatronus> a meaty subject for our chat tonight! laugh [19:04] <Aislinn> it is a meaty subject [19:04] <cbm> It seems like ages since I have made it all the way through a chat sad [19:04] <futureweasley> meaty...that's an excellent descriptor [19:04] <MafaldaWeasley> totally nice!! [19:04] <Aislinn> are you going to be able to stick around tonight, cbm? [19:04] <ProngsPatronus> :-) [19:05] <cbm> maybe, I have things to do sad I will try to do them and the chat at the same time [19:05] <MafaldaWeasley> hehe cbm, I know how bad it is. [19:05] *** nympheart has joined #lounge [19:05] <Aislinn> me too, cbm - I've gotten really good at multi-tasking since joining the lounge smile [19:05] <futureweasley> hi nympheart [19:06] <nympheart> hello [19:06] <Aislinn> hi nymph [19:06] <futureweasley> HA! Haven't we all?! [19:06] <MafaldaWeasley> hi nymph [19:06] <cbm> 1st I have to figure out what I want for dinner [19:06] <futureweasley> some better than others, of course. I stink at multi-tasking while at home [19:06] <MafaldaWeasley> ahh I see Expoie is here too. Great, I have my fellow coughSnapeisbadcough here with me [19:07] <MafaldaWeasley> me too future...I cannot [19:07] *** memyslfnI has joined #lounge [19:07] <nympheart> hi me [19:07] <cbm> I am not that great at it either, that is why I may leave [19:07] <Aislinn> hi me [19:07] *** Wierdgirl5834 has joined #lounge [19:07] *** Wierdgirl5834 has quit [Bye] [19:07] <ProngsPatronus> lol--don't count the *coughsnape is out for himselfcough* folks! [19:07] <memyslfnI> hi guys!!! [19:07] <futureweasley> hi memyslfnI [19:07] <ProngsPatronus> hey, M! [19:07] <nympheart> those are the best folks, prongs [19:07] <MafaldaWeasley> haha PP [19:07] <MafaldaWeasley> hello Me [19:08] <memyslfnI> should I cough now PP? [19:08] <ProngsPatronus> you betcha! [19:08] <ProngsPatronus> LOL [19:08] *** Punky has joined #lounge [19:08] <futureweasley> I happen to like those folks, too...and the ones who say he's doing it all for Petunia [19:08] <futureweasley> hi Punky! [19:08] <nympheart> hi punky [19:08] *** Joyhawk2121 has joined #lounge [19:08] <Aislinn> hi punky smile [19:08] <MafaldaWeasley> everybody coughing tonigh...what's going on? haha [19:08] <Aislinn> hey joyhawk [19:08] <Punky> Hey guys! [19:08] <ProngsPatronus> grin--that's a match made in Hades--Snape and Petunia [19:08] <Joyhawk2121> hello everyone [19:08] <ProngsPatronus> they could nitpick each other to death [19:08] * futureweasley loves Snapetunia [19:09] <MafaldaWeasley> hey everybody that just got in. [19:09] <Joyhawk2121> hi Punky [19:09] <futureweasley> it makes me laught [19:09] <futureweasley> *laugh [19:09] <nympheart> I'm trying to picture Petunia in the same room with Snape [19:09] <Expelliarmas> hello, Joyhawk [19:09] <Joyhawk2121> Hi Expie [19:09] <memyslfnI> if he got one bit of grease on her floor she would freak LOL [19:09] <ProngsPatronus> can she overcome the urge to get the dishsoap? Inquiring minds want to know... [19:10] <MafaldaWeasley> imagine if she had seen hin undies on his glorious days eh? [19:10] <nympheart> hmm, in my mental image they're competing to see who gets to look down their nose at the other [19:10] <futureweasley> I just have to say something really quick, then I'll be over it...Phoenix Rising is a month from yesterday! WOOT! [19:10] <Aislinn> it would be quite the challenge for her laugh [19:10] <futureweasley> /resume chat [19:10] <Punky> lol Future [19:10] <cbm> Wouldn't the grease form his hair get on the furniture? Petunia could not have that at all [19:10] <futureweasley> she's into grease [19:11] <Punky> it's a secret obsession [19:11] <futureweasley> like drippings from the morning bacon pan, so are Petunia and Snape [19:11] <MafaldaWeasley> hahaha future [19:11] <ProngsPatronus> As The Snapetunia Turns [19:12] <futureweasley> yes Prongs, I like it [19:12] <futureweasley> rofl... [19:12] <futureweasley> I don't know why that amuses me so [19:12] <cbm> I still think he using the grease as a potions ingredient [19:12] <nympheart> lol cbm [19:12] <ProngsPatronus> perhaps it is the yin-yang aspect, the oil and (dish)water aspect of it that amuses you so... [19:13] <futureweasley> poor Petunia...imagine the dishpan hands [19:14] <nympheart> what would Snape use that grease for other than poison? [19:14] <futureweasley> sex appeal [19:14] <futureweasley> LOL [19:14] <MafaldaWeasley> haha [19:14] <ProngsPatronus> well, it seems to have worked so far, doesn't it? [19:15] <Aislinn> We will be starting the discussion in a few minutes. You're not going to be able to type for a few minutes while we make some announcements, please bear with us, you'll be able to type again soon. [19:15] <ProngsPatronus> as legions of Snapefans can attest [19:15] <Aislinn> There may be times during the chat when a moderator will want to PM something to you. Please keep an eye on the top of your screen, right next to the button with #Lounge on it. A button will appear with one of the mods' names on it. If you see that appear, click on it to see the PM that has been sent to you by that mod. [19:15] <Aislinn> You won't be able to reply to that PM, but if you could just say something like "Sooner, got it" in the main chat, to let us know that you have seen it, that will be great. We'd also like to remind you that the rules of the Lounge also apply here in the Corner Booth, and may be found here: http://www.leakylounge.com/?act=rules [19:15] <Aislinn> If you need to contact us during the chat, send one, or all, of us a PM on the Lounge. We will be checking them regularly, but if we haven't replied after a little while then please let us know here that you have sent a PM. Thanks for your cooperation! [19:15] <Aislinn> While its easy to drift off in various directions, let's all try to have a fun chat by sticking to the topic for today. OK, moving on to the topic for the chat! [19:15] <futureweasley> Welcome to the WWW chat about Horcruxes, Sacrifice, and Redemption. We will be analyzing the role they play in the series thus far. [19:16] <futureweasley> One of the fascinating things that JK Rowling does throughout this series is explore the choices that people make in their lives, and what effect those choices have on them. Voldemort has chosen to create Horcruxes to keep himself alive, sacrificing other people's lives for his own benefit. [19:16] <futureweasley> Lily, at the other end of the spectrum, chose to sacrifice her own life, in order to save the life of her son. There are choices that have been made in between these two extremes that have been sacrifices of one type or another for good or ill. [19:16] <futureweasley> Let's explore these good and evil sacrifices, and the consequences, including potential redemption, that result. [19:16] <futureweasley> Which is worse: the act of murder or the act of creating a Horcrux? [19:16] <nympheart> creating a Horcrux takes murder even further [19:16] <Aislinn> difficult question - they are both abominations [19:17] <ProngsPatronus> I see a Horcrux as a double murder [19:17] <cbm> I think that creating a horcrux is worse, but both are deeply horrible [19:17] <futureweasley> wow, I don't know...they are both evil. I would think that the horcrux might be worse, as it actually perpetuates the act of murder [19:17] <memyslfnI> I do too. its bad enough to murder, but to murder for selfish means is worse [19:17] <ProngsPatronus> the murder of an individual to accomplish the tearing of the soul, and the murder of the soul to accomplish a false immortality [19:17] <nympheart> I can see that, Prongs, it destroys both the person killed for the Horcrux and the person making it [19:17] <futureweasley> that's an interesting point, Prongs...double murder, the death of one, and in essence, a partial death of another [19:18] <memyslfnI> it shows no regard for others, no regard for human life..it makes you a parasite, living off of others [19:18] <Punky> and a horcrux seems to imply that it is premeditated as well [19:18] <Aislinn> that's true, M [19:18] <ProngsPatronus> it also shows the ultimate hatred--the hatred of the divine within [19:18] <MafaldaWeasley> I think it's the act of creating a horcrux.. destroying innocent lives to achieve a goal that's only yours [19:18] <memyslfnI> yes, PP! [19:18] <Aislinn> yes, punky - it seems like it would be carefully planned murder [19:18] <Expelliarmas> The murder leads to the creation of the horcrux; while the ambition to create the horcrux leads to the murder. Both are equally evil. [19:18] <futureweasley> yes, Punky...if you have a fresh enough tear and the presence of mind enough to create a horcrux, premeditation is likely the only explanation [19:19] <Aislinn> agreed, expie [19:19] <Joyhawk2121> yes, both are equally evil [19:19] <ProngsPatronus> people murder for many reasons--but a Horcrux? that takes a special kind of loathing for the human race [19:20] <futureweasley> After a Horcrux is created, can that piece of soul ever be reunited with the soul in the body? [19:20] <nympheart> i don't think so [19:20] <Aislinn> I don't think that it can [19:20] <ProngsPatronus> I don't think so [19:20] <futureweasley> I'm not really sure...but how could it be? [19:20] <Expelliarmas> there's a question for Jo to answer. It implies remorse and redemption. [19:20] <Aislinn> and that is one of the things that makes it such an evil act - it irrevocably tears one's soul [19:20] <MafaldaWeasley> no, I don't think so, but I'm not sure [19:20] <ProngsPatronus> I think that a soul's meat and drink is the experience of the person who has that soul [19:20] <cbm> I think it acts as an anchor for the what is left in the body, so that can never leave [19:20] <memyslfnI> I think that once the damage is done, its done..you cannot bring the victim back so... [19:20] *** Jesus has joined #lounge [19:21] <ProngsPatronus> depriving that piece of soul of its sustenance makes it impossible to graft onto the main shard again, I think [19:21] <Aislinn> yes, Prongs, that is how I see it too [19:21] <BrettMac> I don't think it can. That would completely contradict the finality of death, and the fact that your soul is split. That would be going against one of the biggest Jo themes, which is that you need to likve with your decisions, and I don't think she'd write that,. [19:21] <nympheart> It feels like an act that wicked can't just vanish [19:21] <nympheart> nice point Brett [19:21] <Aislinn> it needs to remain at least partially connected, even if torn. A Horcrux completely separates it from the main soul. [19:22] <ProngsPatronus> and from the Infinite [19:22] <Expelliarmas> That's why the reunification of the soul into the body may imply some sort of act of forgiveness. [19:22] <ProngsPatronus> which is the real abomination of it [19:22] <futureweasley> right, there's something about the soul scarring over, but I think that once it's removed, it's gone [19:23] <Aislinn> yes, more like an amputation [19:23] <cbm> I think that creating a horcrux is not revesible, there for I do not think it can be reunited [19:23] <nympheart> half of the crime in making a Horcrux is against the person who made it, if they realize they were wrong, could they ever forgive themself? [19:23] <futureweasley> amputation...I like that Aislinn [19:23] <cbm> Ailinn, amputation is good! [19:23] <Jesus> I agree [19:23] <futureweasley> Has anyone else besides Voldemort created Horcruxes? [19:23] <ProngsPatronus> yes [19:23] <MafaldaWeasley> Somedoby must have done it [19:23] <memyslfnI> i bet Gridlewald did [19:23] <Aislinn> I wonder if grindelwald did [19:23] <futureweasley> I'm pretty sure Grindelwald did [19:23] <ProngsPatronus> I think Grindlewald made them [19:23] <nympheart> no during the course of the series, but in the past [19:23] <Aislinn> hehehe - seems we are in agreement [19:23] <Jesus> Well we know Voldermorts gone the farthest [19:23] <cbm> Someone would have had to created one first, but if they are so great, why is that wizard not around [19:24] <Punky> just not to the same extreme that Voldemort has [19:24] <Aislinn> it is unlikely that the Horcrux spell has never been used in the past [19:24] <ProngsPatronus> I agree, punky [19:24] <nympheart> If Grindlewald made one, it would explain why DD was familiar with them [19:24] <futureweasley> I think that the wording is also very significant..."defeated"...defeated was the wording of the Prophecy in regards to Harry and LV, and on the back of the chocolate frog card about DD and Grindelwald [19:24] <Expelliarmas> Someone has to have done it in the past, just not to the degree that LV did [19:24] <Aislinn> right - probably others had chosen to make one, but not seven [19:24] <memyslfnI> DD defeated grindlewald, so I am sure he destroyed the horcrux and then grindlewald [19:24] <futureweasley> I think that was used to draw a parallel [19:24] <Jesus> Well it had to have been an established spell if Voldermort had to ask Slughorn about it [19:24] <Aislinn> agreed [19:24] <cbm> One is bad enough! [19:25] <Expelliarmas> I think DD would know of these things if only because he was DD [19:26] <futureweasley> I meant give the reader a parallel to connect the two dark wizards and their method of demise with [19:26] <cbm> But if there was just one, I would expect it to be better protected than voldemorts were [19:26] <memyslfnI> i bet DD knew all about them..but, as MCGonnegal said, he would never dare use them as he is a desent wizard [19:26] <ProngsPatronus> it would be against the character of DD to use such a thing [19:26] <memyslfnI> right pp [19:27] <futureweasley> yes, mmni, that makes me wonder what McG knows about them [19:27] <futureweasley> Where did Voldemort learn to make a Horcrux? [19:27] <memyslfnI> but that doesn't mean he did not know how...his CHOICE was not to, he was too good of a person to resort to such evil measures [19:27] <Aislinn> I bet he learned from Grindelwald, among other places [19:27] <Expelliarmas> I never said DD would use it; let me clarify--DD would know about it, because as DD he would have a vast knowledge of all forms of magic. Regardless of whether he was inclined to use such magic. [19:27] <cbm> Good quesiton, maybe at the Guants [19:27] <ProngsPatronus> I think gfrom the restricted section, confirmed with Slughorn, then from Grindlewald [19:27] <futureweasley> see, Aislinn...I am of the school of thought as well [19:28] <Jesus> What time period was Grindelwald alive during? [19:28] <cbm> Didn't he know how before he left school? [19:28] <Aislinn> right M, I think Dd probably knew many things that were more to understand the opposition than because he would ever be tempted to use himself. [19:28] <nympheart> that didn't tell him the incantation, Prongs [19:28] <futureweasley> I think it's possible that Grindelwald and LV have had interactions [19:28] <Aislinn> the second world war, jesus [19:28] <futureweasley> Grindelwald was defeated in 1945 [19:28] <Expelliarmas> As smart as Tom Riddle was, I think once he had an idea of what a horcrux was and how it was created, he would have taken it upon himself to figure out how to do it. Tom Riddle did not typically spend summers at Hogwarts. [19:28] <memyslfnI> poor orphans! [19:29] <Jesus> Can you guys see what i'm typing? [19:29] <futureweasley> what's to stop another wizard from making a trip to the orphanage? [19:29] <Aislinn> yes [19:29] <futureweasley> yes, we see you [19:29] <nympheart> perhaps going through the libraries of some of his clients while he worked at Borgin and Burkes? [19:29] <Expelliarmas> I don't think horcrux-for-dummies was to be found in the restricted section. [19:29] <Jesus> Oh ok thanks i was wondering [19:29] <cbm> It is around the timeframe where he went and found the gaunts and the riddles, so maybe the gaunts had some books, that is my guess [19:29] <ProngsPatronus> it may have been mentioned, is all I am saying [19:29] <Expelliarmas> I don't know if the Gaunts could read. I think he took a trip to Albania or some other place where he could learn about dark magic. [19:29] <ProngsPatronus> in those books [19:29] <Joyhawk2121> Nor I expell [19:30] <futureweasley> I wonder, too, if Tom got more information from Slughorn...I mean, we only see one memory [19:30] <Expelliarmas> that's true, fw [19:30] <Aislinn> I think that he could have gone off to meet Grindelwald during the summer after his 16th birthday, and learned it then [19:30] <cbm> But I am under the impression that he learned it before he left school [19:30] <ProngsPatronus> I think he learned of their existence before he left school [19:30] <Expelliarmas> I think he created his first horcrux during the time he was a student at Hogwarts [19:30] <Jesus> Well maybe he read the same exact book Hermoine read and had the inclination to ask Slughorn what horcruxes are assuming that as being one of Slughorns fav's he could easily gain access to such information [19:31] <Aislinn> right - this would have been the summer between his 6th and 7th year of school [19:31] <memyslfnI> I dont believe that FW..I think we saw all of what he told Tom..he hid his conversation to save his own butt, but he I believe would not show him more than what he did [19:31] <Aislinn> jesus: yes, that may be where he first saw an inkling of the concept [19:31] <cbm> He also learned AK before he left school [19:31] <futureweasley> Is there any other benefit to creating a Horcrux besides immortality? [19:31] <ProngsPatronus> the DADA students of harry's time learned it in their fourth year [19:31] <cbm> No [19:32] <Aislinn> I don't think there is [19:32] <memyslfnI> no, none.. [19:32] <ProngsPatronus> no [19:32] <nympheart> you don't even get real immortality, no [19:32] <fawkes28> unless you just want to do it to see how powerful you really are [19:32] <Expelliarmas> I can't imagine any benefit flowing from such an evilness [19:32] <cbm> It is a totally evil concept [19:32] <memyslfnI> you distory true enlightenment to achieve a false immortality, good point nymphreart [19:32] <fawkes28> some people just like power trips [19:33] <ProngsPatronus> esp. psychopaths [19:33] <Jesus> i doubt it but we dont really know [19:33] <Aislinn> yes, M, and destroying any true immortality that your soul may have by moving onto to that next great adventure after death [19:33] <nympheart> If creating horcruxes would help LV in any other way, I would hope that DD would have mentioned it to Harry [19:34] <ProngsPatronus> that's why I think Dementors are evil--they fall within that graph, as well [19:34] <fawkes28> there is no good reason for creating one - all the reasons are just evil [19:34] <memyslfnI> the person who creates a horcrux is a "pretend" version of what Flel and the stone really is..Yet you do not take the journey, you "cheat" to achieve it.. [19:34] <memyslfnI> Flamel, rather [19:34] <Jesus> If you create a horcrux are you prevented from dieing of old age? [19:35] <nympheart> I think so Jesus [19:35] <cbm> I think you would be [19:35] <memyslfnI> I bet your soul ages.. [19:35] <futureweasley> well, you can leave your "aged" body and take on a new form [19:35] <MafaldaWeasley> it can prevent you from agening [19:35] <ProngsPatronus> doesn't mean you don't get old--it just means that when that body is worn out, the soul stays on this plane [19:35] <nympheart> LV is 70 and doesn't really show signs of aging [19:35] <cbm> what would be the point otherwise, or maybe you need a new body every so often [19:35] <MafaldaWeasley> sorry it was a question [19:36] <memyslfnI> like a snake, you would "shed" the old skin? [19:36] <BrettMac> agreed fw [19:36] <futureweasley> yes M, that's what I think [19:36] <nympheart> I like that idea me [19:36] <ProngsPatronus> I think so, M [19:36] <futureweasley> Does creating a Horcrux make a person unredeemable? [19:36] <ProngsPatronus> yes [19:36] <memyslfnI> yes [19:36] <BrettMac> yes [19:36] <Aislinn> yes [19:36] <cbm> Yes [19:36] <nympheart> I would say so [19:36] <futureweasley> see, I don't think so [19:36] <memyslfnI> LV, is unredeemable [19:36] <nympheart> convince us, future [19:36] <fawkes28> well, doesn't it depend on the person [19:36] <futureweasley> LV is a psychopath [19:37] <Aislinn> I think that once you have physically separated a piece of your soul, you are taking a step that you can't come back from [19:37] <MafaldaWeasley> I agree with future..if love cna protect I think it can also redeem [19:37] <futureweasley> what if you make one, then change your evil, schemeing ways [19:37] <Jesus> well then LV would just need to continue using that same potion which regenerated his body then i assume? [19:37] <memyslfnI> it is the darkest magic [19:37] <Aislinn> No matter what you choose to try to do to redeem yourself afterwards [19:37] <fawkes28> if the person created one horcrux and was able to see the err of his/her ways then that person could possibly be redeemed [19:37] <nympheart> can you become good if you only have a part of a soul, though? [19:37] <futureweasley> what if you make one and realize later that it wasn't at all the right path to have chosen? [19:37] <memyslfnI> I think if you make one, you are a gonner [19:37] <Aislinn> I don't think so, nymph [19:37] <fawkes28> what if it was the only time you ever killed? [19:38] <BrettMac> hmm... i guess i agree with that, fawkes [19:38] <Punky> You can't ever fix your soul again, but I think you could still be redeemed [19:38] <Aislinn> I think that a torn soul can be scarred over, but that one that is ripped and separated has moved past the point of redemption [19:38] <BrettMac> if you see the error of your ways, then i guess you can be forgiven [19:38] <ProngsPatronus> I think anyone so lost to humanity who would create such an abomination would not make the choice to embrace redemption or forgiveness [19:38] <memyslfnI> if you kill, you may be redeemed, but if you kill and then benefit from the death by making a horcrux, you have crossed the line [19:38] <Jesus> My chat Lags sad [19:38] <MafaldaWeasley> AV was also believe to be something that nobody could stop, but love did stop it, so maybe love can redeem, [19:38] <fawkes28> that is a good way to put it, Aislinn [19:38] <nympheart> but I think you need you soul to see the error of your ways [19:38] <futureweasley> I guess I would like to think that, even if you make the worst of bad choices, you can still grow and change. We know that isn't the case for LV, but maybe for someone else, it could be [19:38] <fawkes28> type / reconnect without the space [19:38] <cbm> I thinik it is too late at that point, you have destroyed part of your soul [19:39] <Aislinn> I think that is true for everything, pretty much up to the point of making a Horcrux, future [19:39] <memyslfnI> A horcrux is the worse choice you can make...choice being the key word here.. [19:39] <MafaldaWeasley> Destroyed or only splitted? [19:39] <fawkes28> but it is one part of your soul, surely if the person is sincere, the person can be redeemed [19:39] * futureweasley has no idea when she became such a sunshiney optimist [19:39] <memyslfnI> LOL [19:39] <cbm> lol [19:39] <ProngsPatronus> I think we all tear our souls in some respects, just going through life [19:39] <Aislinn> yes, prongs, I agree [19:40] <memyslfnI> I dont agree..(hides...) sorry [19:40] <ProngsPatronus> but to amputate, willingly, part of one's souls and then deny it food and drink--no, there is a line, and LV has crossed it [19:40] *** Jesus has quit [Bye] [19:40] *** Jesus has joined #lounge [19:40] <memyslfnI> we may get it a bit dirty sometimes, but not everyone kills, that tears your soul [19:40] <nympheart> but not to pieces, prongs, they're still there if a bit scratched [19:40] <Jesus> thanks biggrin [19:40] <ProngsPatronus> yes, that is my point [19:40] <ProngsPatronus> we may do that, but it is not on the same order as a Horcrux [19:41] <memyslfnI> aaah, I see PP [19:41] *** LilyFlower has joined #lounge [19:41] <nympheart> hi Lily [19:41] <fawkes28> hi lily [19:41] <LilyFlower> Hello everyone [19:41] <MafaldaWeasley> hi [19:41] <Jesus> I agree because if DD ridded the world of Grindlewald we assume he killed him do we not? [19:41] <ProngsPatronus> all canon says is defeated [19:41] <MafaldaWeasley> I don't think he killed Gridelwald nop [19:41] <memyslfnI> there are things worse than death [19:41] <futureweasley> yes, PP, I agree...some cuts are deeper than others...what comes of murder is obviously the deepest...and to make a horcrux is an abomination of nature [19:41] <LilyFlower> That or put him in a gaint bubble [19:42] <Aislinn> i think the way you put it is quite apt Prongs - the soul needs to be nourished, and the piece that is separated cannot be [19:42] <memyslfnI> encased him in stone, maybe.. [19:42] <cbm> Not all killing is murder, not all killing is evil [19:42] <Jesus> True... [19:42] <Aislinn> Redemption would be feeding the soul with acts of remorse and atonement - but that feeding cannot reach the separated bit(s) [19:42] <ProngsPatronus> exactly [19:43] <ProngsPatronus> redemption and forgiveness is like fertiliser [19:43] <MafaldaWeasley> I think love is powerful enough to save a lide [19:43] <MafaldaWeasley> life [19:43] <Aislinn> that's why I don't think that redemption is possible [19:43] <futureweasley> Is destroying a Horcrux able to be considered an act of murder? [19:43] <memyslfnI> no [19:43] <ProngsPatronus> no [19:43] <cbm> No [19:43] <nympheart> I don't think so, it's not a whole person, so you could say it's not a person at all [19:43] <MafaldaWeasley> this is a very interesting question, eh? [19:43] <futureweasley> see, I think yes. I must be reading a different series [19:43] <ProngsPatronus> yes, it is [19:44] <Aislinn> no, it has already been damaged by the person who ripped it away from it's source [19:44] <Punky> But you're destroying a piece of someone's soul, I don't see why it isn't murder in some sense [19:44] <Expelliarmas> Not necessarily. It depends on whether one considers the piece of soul within the vessel to be life. [19:44] <ProngsPatronus> I know what you mean, future [19:44] <cbm> It is no longer part of the person, it is now an evil magical object [19:44] <memyslfnI> the person who has created the horcrux has lost his rights in that respect. [19:44] *** MafaldaWeasley has quit [Bye] [19:44] <ProngsPatronus> is the soul actually destroyed, or is it liberated? [19:44] *** MafaldaWeasley has joined #lounge [19:44] <Expelliarmas> the horcrux is a vessel; but there is a piece of a soul within it. [19:45] <MafaldaWeasley> wow! got kicked [19:45] <memyslfnI> its sort of like an eye for an eye isn't it [19:45] <Punky> good distinction PP, I thought it was destroyed? [19:45] <LilyFlower> But you are killing a soul [19:45] <futureweasley> it's soul...it's sacred...it's something that emcompasses something so pure...how could not destroying it harm the destroyer? [19:45] <cbm> I think the soul is really dead as soon as it leaves the body [19:45] <ProngsPatronus> no--I believe that part of soul is already dead [19:45] <Aislinn> right, cbm, it has been converted from part of a whole soul into a vessel of evil - perverted and transfigured into something other than it was [19:45] <memyslfnI> you are killing a soul that is no longer worthy of the secrets of the universe [19:45] <nympheart> I think once you make a horcrux and mutilate your soul, you're no longer human because having a soul defines humanity, so the person who made the horcrux is not a human, nor are the horcruxes themselves, so it can't be murder [19:46] <Aislinn> it is no longer sacred once it is an amputated bit, future [19:46] <BrettMac> not murder, because you aren't killing the person themself. except for in the case of vapormort, that person still has a bit of soul in them, so you're not actually causing them to die. [19:46] <futureweasley> it's still sacred to the owner... [19:46] <Punky> But that piece of a soul can still provide life [19:46] <MafaldaWeasley> you are vanishing with a part of an existence...it doesn't matter if it has to feed itself from other to become active again, but you are killing a thing thgat potential has life on it [19:46] <LilyFlower> Also when the person who makes a Horcrux he releaseing the soul so [19:46] <futureweasley> it's still a significant piece of who that person is [19:46] <Jesus> i don't consider it murder because technically the person making a horcrux removed their soul from themselves [19:46] <nympheart> the owner doesn't hold life sacred if they made a horcrux [19:46] <Aislinn> i guess it gets into how you define what is sacred about the soul, Future [19:46] <Expelliarmas> i disagree; there is still a bit of soul encased within the horcrux--irrespective of the evilness of the act which created the horcrux [19:47] <ProngsPatronus> but it isn't, future--if it were sacred to the owner, the owner wouldn't have torn it in the first place [19:47] <cbm> true prongs [19:47] <futureweasley> I disagree nymph, the holder does prize his soul...he prizes his own life...hence the creation of the horcrux in the first place [19:47] <Aislinn> exactly prongs - that person is completely devaluing the very thing that IS sacred about the soul [19:47] <MafaldaWeasley> yes future, i agree [19:47] <Expelliarmas> the owner who created the horcrux prizes that bit of soul beyond measure, otherwise, why create the horcrux in the firstplace [19:47] <ProngsPatronus> he prizes his life above that piece of soul [19:47] <Aislinn> He prizes his life at the expense of his soul, future [19:48] <Aislinn> he is choosing the life over the soul, so he is actually devaluing that soul, dismissing it's importance [19:48] <Expelliarmas> that piece of soul is the essence of life to the creator of the horcrux [19:48] <ProngsPatronus> which is why he thinks he can afford to lose it [19:48] <nympheart> they misunderstand life, they don't see it as something to be treasured, they see it as something to be used; coveted, not valued [19:48] <fawkes28> the person has already detached that part of themselves from the soul - it is now a separate entity as a horcrux - so i do not think it is murder [19:48] <LilyFlower> The person who made the Hourcrux killed the soul first by removing it from his body [19:48] <Aislinn> exactly lily [19:48] <Expelliarmas> the soul is not dead [19:48] <Aislinn> that part of it is [19:48] <MafaldaWeasley> the soul is away from being dead, I think [19:48] <fawkes28> but it is separated willingly [19:48] <Aislinn> and the rest is irreversably damaged [19:49] <Jesus> i agree with fawkes [19:49] <Expelliarmas> damaged, perhaps--but not dead [19:49] <nympheart> it's not dead, but it's not human, so not murder [19:49] <MafaldaWeasley> not it's not, TR was very alive and kicking.. he was just waiting to ginny energy to pass on him, but he had a consicence [19:49] <Aislinn> that is because he was stealing Her soul, mafalda [19:49] <futureweasley> I could talk about this all night [19:49] <futureweasley> however, we're going to move on [19:49] <ProngsPatronus> :-) me, too [19:49] <LilyFlower> Can there be a soul without a body? Can it survive without a boy [19:49] <Aislinn> he was drawing on what was still alive within her [19:49] <futureweasley> :-) [19:49] <futureweasley> The creation of a Horcrux goes against the law of nature. Therefore, is creating a Horcrux the ultimate evil sacrifice? [19:49] <MafaldaWeasley> it wass stealing her soul or it was stealing her life, like a murder? [19:50] <LilyFlower> yes [19:50] <nympheart> I can't imagine anything worse, so yes [19:50] <Expelliarmas> It's not a sacrifice. [19:50] <cbm> I can't think of anything worse in the HP universe [19:50] <Aislinn> Yes - it is in essence spitting in the face of the divine - saying that you are not subject to the laws of nature [19:50] <fawkes28> i do not know what could be worse than spliting your soul [19:50] <ProngsPatronus> evil sacrifice? I think of it as an abomination of the Universe [19:50] <Expelliarmas> The person murdered is sacrificed [19:50] <BrettMac> yep [19:50] <LilyFlower> Something worse? Forcing someone t make a Horcrux? [19:50] <nympheart> the person who made it sacrificed their soul and their true life as well as whoever they killed [19:50] <fawkes28> yes, prongs - i think it is an evil sacrifice [19:50] <futureweasley> one is sacrificing oneself...the chance to be pure and unmutated...how is that not a sacrifice? [19:50] <MafaldaWeasley> I'm with expie. It's not a sacrifice, the person has a very clear and selfish objective [19:50] <ProngsPatronus> I see [19:50] <Jesus> Well it is a sacrifice, you sacrifice part of your soul for immortality [19:51] <Aislinn> turning your back on the soul, which is the part of each of us that connects us to the divine [19:51] <fawkes28> it is a sacrifice because the person is harming a part of their being [19:51] <LilyFlower> Also another sacrifice is the person losing a bit of soul [19:51] <futureweasley> yes Aislinn... [19:51] <ProngsPatronus> it is also terribly sad [19:51] <Expelliarmas> The creator of the horcrux does this willingly. S/he is not sacrificing a thing--other than another human being for his or her own personal gain. [19:51] <fawkes28> they sacrifice that part of their soul to be in the afterlife with them [19:51] <nympheart> i'd call it their whole being, fawkes [19:51] <ProngsPatronus> to sacrifice that which is Divine within, one must be riddled with fear and despair [19:51] <Aislinn> i don't know if they go on to the afterlife, by making this choice, fawkes [19:52] <LilyFlower> LV sacrifice his good looks too [19:52] <MafaldaWeasley> lol Lily [19:52] <nympheart> lol Lily, true [19:52] <futureweasley> to have made the choice to create such a horrible thing...it is unconsciousable [19:52] <cbm> I would not call it a sacrifice is usually something with no reward, a horcrux has a reward of immortality, I would call it a payment [19:52] <fawkes28> which is why it is a sacrifice - they are giving up that chance - that adventure [19:52] <MafaldaWeasley> I think he priviledged his pure Slytherin essence. That's why he looks like a snake [19:52] <ProngsPatronus> yes, he did, LF--the mirror of his Muggle father [19:52] <futureweasley> OK, let's move on to Sacrifice, shall we? [19:53] <Aislinn> you are sacrificing your connection to the divine, cbm - it is a rejection of the divine, but to me is an ignorant sacrifice. [19:53] <futureweasley> Is a sacrifice a truly selfless act? [19:53] <ProngsPatronus> *sigh* [19:53] <MafaldaWeasley> yes [19:53] <cbm> yes [19:53] <memyslfnI> the eyes are the mirror of the soul..it is interesting that his turn to red slits, as if his soul is still bleeding [19:53] <ProngsPatronus> yes [19:53] <Joyhawk2121> yes [19:53] <nympheart> I think it has to be to be a real sacrifice [19:53] <Jesus> dictionary.com states a sacrifice is the offering of animal, plant, or human life or of some material possession to a deity, as in propitiation or homage. i believe this situation fits the giudeline [19:53] <LilyFlower> If you don't get another from it [19:53] <nympheart> that was interesting me [19:54] <Expelliarmas> Yes, I think *sacrifice* implies no expectation of reward [19:54] <Expelliarmas> or gain [19:54] <memyslfnI> I agree Expie [19:54] <Aislinn> I don't know - if you are making a sacrifice yourself, I think yes, but there have been cultures throughout history who have chosen to sacrifice others for their own causes [19:54] <fawkes28> if the sacrifice involves risking your life then yes it is selfless [19:54] <Aislinn> In those circumstances, it is not a selfless act, as the person being sacrificed may not be doing it willingly [19:54] <LilyFlower> Like Wormtail can sacrifice himself for harry but he probaly will be doing to get rid of his debt or to gain power [19:54] <ProngsPatronus> you mean ritual sacrifice, right, Aislinn? [19:55] <fawkes28> good point, LilyFlower [19:55] <Aislinn> yes, prongs [19:55] <LilyFlower> and thats not selfless [19:55] <Jesus> i disagree [19:55] <ProngsPatronus> so, there is more than one kind of sacrifice [19:55] <Aislinn> yes, that's my poinst [19:55] <Aislinn> point [19:55] <ProngsPatronus> which one are we talking about? [19:56] *** Jesus has quit [Bye] [19:56] *** Jesus has joined #lounge [19:56] <fawkes28> it is non-specific so it depends on your viewpoint [19:56] <LilyFlower> Yea sacrificing yourself or someone or something else [19:56] <Jesus> a sacrifice can be made to gain reward, i can sacrifice my paycheck so i can buy a fancy car [19:56] *** chocolateisnotforbreakfast has joined #lounge [19:57] <nympheart> hi chocolate [19:57] <memyslfnI> Lv is in a way, sacrificing others for his own gain while on the other end of the spectrum, to sacrifice ones self without the hope of anything to gain, is a noble act [19:57] <LilyFlower> but it's only selfless if you don't gain anything [19:57] <ProngsPatronus> well, then, I think that there are some forms of sacrifice which speak to the willingness to do for others at the expense of earthly life--like Lily [19:57] <LilyFlower> Hello! [19:57] <futureweasley> hi chocolate [19:57] <ProngsPatronus> that is a true sacrifice to me [19:57] <MafaldaWeasley> I don't know I think sacrifice implies giving up things without waiting for a reward [19:57] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> hey all! what's the question? smile [19:57] <Aislinn> yes, M, that's just how I see it [19:57] <futureweasley> you're just in time, we're moving to the next [19:57] <futureweasley> Can there be sacrifice without love? [19:57] <Jesus> Well in which instance are we Applying sacrifice to? [19:57] <nympheart> yes [19:57] <fawkes28> Yes there can [19:57] <ProngsPatronus> yes [19:57] <cbm> yes [19:57] <Aislinn> depending on the type you are referring to, yes [19:57] <futureweasley> I think there can be, as well [19:58] <nympheart> fear can be a substitute [19:58] <memyslfnI> hmmmm. depends on the type [19:58] <futureweasley> woot, I'm on the same page! [19:58] <MafaldaWeasley> without any kind of love? I find hard [19:58] <ProngsPatronus> LV has sacrificed while spitting in the face of love [19:58] <fawkes28> Like when Harry was willing to sacrifice himself for Peter - he did not love him [19:58] <LilyFlower> yes [19:58] <Punky> it seems like you just have to be dedicated to a cause, whatever the motivation [19:58] <fawkes28> but he was willing to die rather than have his parent's friends become murderers [19:58] <Jesus> i agree with that [19:58] <futureweasley> I wouldn't call what Harry did for Peter a true sacrifice, fawkes [19:58] <LilyFlower> well he love sirus and remus not to go jail afterwards [19:59] <memyslfnI> to truly sacrifice yourself for a person, or goal to give up your earthly life for another shows that you love with all your heart [19:59] <MafaldaWeasley> yes, Punky. You must love something somehow. LV loves his life, he is afraid of letting it go. He loves his power... [19:59] <fawkes28> i would - he had two angry wizards in front of him - he put himself between them and peter - to me that is a sacrifice [19:59] <Jesus> Well it wasn't the most difficult sacrifice [19:59] <nympheart> Peter sacrificed his hand without love [20:00] <fawkes28> well, it was powerful enough to create a life-debt [20:00] <memyslfnI> he knew he'd get something better [20:00] <LilyFlower> But he did to protect them, sirius and Remus [20:00] <nympheart> I don't think he did [20:00] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i feel like love has to be in the equation somewhere... like love for an ideal [20:00] <Aislinn> harry sacrificed his need for revenge for the loss of his parents, when he saved peter [20:00] <LilyFlower> That's ture [20:00] <nympheart> I think ideally you're right, chocolate, but the world isn't ideal [20:00] <ProngsPatronus> well, he was taking Peter to let Justice have its way [20:00] <LilyFlower> Because he love sirius and remus [20:00] <ProngsPatronus> he wasn't setting him free [20:00] <memyslfnI> but, he wanted the dementors to get him and did not want his friends to be murderers [20:00] <futureweasley> those two decisions were the lesser of two evils when it came to Peter. I don't think that one decision or the other was truly out of sacrifice [20:01] <fawkes28> no, i wouldnt call what he felt for Sirius and Remus love - not at the time [20:01] <memyslfnI> i do not view that as sacrifice [20:01] <ProngsPatronus> no--but his love for his father is true [20:01] <memyslfnI> yes, it is PP [20:01] <ProngsPatronus> and it was because of his father's love for them that he diod not want them to tear their souls [20:01] <LilyFlower> Actually his love for his father travel to sirius and remus [20:01] <Jesus> So we are talking solely on Sacrificing yourself? [20:01] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> peter loved himself? maybe he was willing to sacrifice part of himself to make himself more loyal or better in LV's eyes [20:01] <memyslfnI> right, PP I agree [20:02] <Aislinn> yes, Prongs [20:02] <MafaldaWeasley> Yes Choco [20:02] <futureweasley> did Harry know about "soul tearing" at that point? [20:02] <Aislinn> no, he didn't know at that point, future [20:02] <memyslfnI> no, but he knew it wwas against the grain..it was wrong [20:02] <Aislinn> but he knew that killing was an evil act, and he did not want them to have to take that step [20:02] <ProngsPatronus> he intuited enough to know that it was something he didn't want his father's friends to do [20:03] *** CarpeDiem has joined #lounge [20:03] <futureweasley> he didn't want Sirius to have to run...he wanted more of the story. In a way, it was selfish. NOT bad selfish...but that decision helped Harry to get something that he wanted [20:03] <Aislinn> hi carpe [20:03] <fawkes28> hey carpe [20:03] <MafaldaWeasley> I think he wanted to proof Sirius was innocent [20:03] <futureweasley> Hi CarpeDiem [20:03] <LilyFlower> Hello [20:03] <CarpeDiem> Hi all! [20:03] <futureweasley> The hero sometimes has to sacrifice his life in order for good to triumph over evil. Is this the case with Harry? [20:03] <LilyFlower> NO! [20:03] <Aislinn> I don't think that was his reason future [20:03] <fawkes28> He will be willing to make the sacrifice but will not die [20:03] <memyslfnI> I believe he will, but I think he will not die [20:03] <nympheart> I don't think so [20:03] <MafaldaWeasley> err...let's move? hahaha [20:03] <ProngsPatronus> subsequent events may have made that possible, but at the moment of decision, I don't think that is what harry had in his heart [20:04] <fawkes28> willing is the key here [20:04] <Aislinn> I think Harry will be willing to sacrifice himself, but will not actually have to [20:04] <LilyFlower> I agree [20:04] <Jesus> i don't think so either [20:04] <LilyFlower> Harry no die [20:04] <CarpeDiem> In a way, Harry has sacraficed a "normal" life because of evil. [20:04] <nympheart> I can agree with fawkes, me and Aislinn [20:04] <ProngsPatronus> I think Harry has already shown us he is willing to go into that arena [20:04] <ProngsPatronus> "with head held high" [20:04] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i agree with aislinn.. it happens in almost every book where he throws aside worring about his own life in order to beat the bad guy [20:05] *** Jesus has quit [Bye] [20:05] <futureweasley> Our resident priest thinks that Harry will have to sacrifice himself in the end. I am preparing myself for that, as I think it rings true to Harry's character [20:05] <CarpeDiem> It's be easy being "the boy who lived" [20:05] *** Jesus has joined #lounge [20:05] <CarpeDiem> Good point Prongs! [20:05] <fawkes28> yes, he knows what he needs to do - he wants Voldemort gone - no matter the cost [20:05] <Jesus> grrr missed it [20:05] <LilyFlower> I can't hear you, Harry won't die [20:05] <Aislinn> yes, he has shown himself to be willing to take that step in most of the books [20:05] <MafaldaWeasley> I don't think he will Lily [20:05] <memyslfnI> especially since he knows now that he is the only one who can destroy LV. If it comes down to sacrificem Harry will do it.. [20:05] <ProngsPatronus> I did not say that he would die--only that he is willing to put his life on the line [20:06] <BrettMac> well, guys, im sorry i havent been very active, but ive been busy and now i have to go. sad sad pandas. have a great chat, everybody! [20:06] * cbm can type again as he is done with his chicken wings smile [20:06] *** BrettMac left #lounge [] [20:06] <futureweasley> yes, no matter the cost, he's proven that he'll put his neck on the line each and every time...let's face it, that's how Harry rolls [20:06] <LilyFlower> yep [20:06] <fawkes28> that is the way i think he will be killed - the fact that Harry needs to be willing to sacrifice himself [20:06] <Jesus> well he has faced death a few times before , i believe he feels as if it is his destiny [20:06] <LilyFlower> It's everyone destiny really [20:07] <futureweasley> Should Harry sacrifice the wholeness of his soul to prevent actions that Voldemort may, or even likely, will do? [from coach’s essay on Consequence, Redemption and the Point of No Return] [20:07] <ProngsPatronus> LOL [20:07] <MafaldaWeasley> no [20:07] <nympheart> no [20:07] <memyslfnI> no, Harry's whole soul is his strength [20:07] <LilyFlower> Like Harry make a Horcrux? No way! [20:07] <memyslfnI> He is uncorruptable [20:07] <cbm> No, I think it would negate Lily;s sacrifice [20:07] <Jesus> No, love is his strongest weapon [20:07] <nympheart> he wouldn't be able to do it if he split his soul [20:07] <LilyFlower> His soul is where he keeps the love [20:07] <fawkes28> if it came down to it, i don't think Harry could use the AK [20:07] <nympheart> I agree cbm [20:07] <futureweasley> Lily, I don't think it means that Harry will make a horcrux...but the tearing of the soul is key [20:08] <Jesus> we all saw what happened when he tried crucio in OotP [20:08] <futureweasley> and, if Harry has to "kill" Lord Voldemort, then tearing the soul could very well happen [20:08] <ProngsPatronus> should he? no would he? maybe [20:08] <CarpeDiem> I don't think Harry is capable of causing a purposeful death. [20:08] <LilyFlower> I don't think he will want too, [20:08] <fawkes28> but Harry does want Voldemort gone - i think he would rather become a murderer than let Voldemort hurt any more people [20:08] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> slughorn specifies that murder is the type of killing that splits the soul - it's not necessarily canon that just because harry kills someone that his soul will definitely be split... killing for a cause or killing in self defense can be argued to not be murder [20:08] <futureweasley> even Lord Voldemort, who he knows he must kill or be killed? [20:09] <cbm> I think he could do it in self defense [20:09] <LilyFlower> That how else will Harry kill Lv? Sit on the train track and say wait here? [20:09] <Punky> Or maybe he is capable Carpe, but making the choice is what will be the difference [20:09] <Aislinn> harry's greatest strength of love stems from his pure and untarnished soul - it is not in anyone's interest for him to damage that [20:09] <fawkes28> i think he is going into it expecting to kill him because right now that seems like the only possiblity to him [20:09] <Jesus> Well from Harry's progression of maturity and the slow switch to darkness of the series i believe Harry might actually kill LV [20:09] <ProngsPatronus> I agree, fawkes [20:09] <nympheart> that's true, chocolate, murder and killing aren't the same thing [20:09] <futureweasley> no Aislinn, it's not...but what if it's a necessity? [20:09] <CarpeDiem> I think that's what sets him apart. His sense of morality...yes, Punky, an ultimate choice that will separate him from Voldemort. [20:09] <Aislinn> It won't be [20:10] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i feel like Dumbledore specified that harry would have to kill voldemort... he could be wrong, but when the prophecy says "one shall die at the hand of another" it's hard to get around... [20:10] <futureweasley> it couldn't be, or it just won't be? [20:10] <ProngsPatronus> I don't think it will be his only choice either, Aislinn--just that he sees it that way now [20:10] <Aislinn> I think that killing is antithetical to that greatest power, and that he will find another way [20:10] <Jesus> True [20:10] <futureweasley> Lily made the ultimate sacrifice for her son. Which mothers in the series would sacrifice themselves for their children? [20:10] <Aislinn> oh, I agree that he mistakenly believes right now that he will have to [20:11] <ProngsPatronus> Molly [20:11] <futureweasley> Narcissa? [20:11] <LilyFlower> Mrs.Wealsey [20:11] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> NOT merope... she's the total opposite [20:11] <Aislinn> yes, Molly would do so in a second [20:11] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> ohh, i agree with future! [20:11] <fawkes28> definitely Molly - she would even make the ultimate sacrifice for Harry [20:11] <nympheart> I'm not sure about Mrs. Finnigan, maybe Narcissa [20:11] <Jesus> I believe Narcissa would [20:11] <Joyhawk2121> yes, Molly [20:11] <fawkes28> i think Narcissa would actually [20:11] <Aislinn> Narcissa might, future, although she seems to prefer to enlist the aid of greasy gits instead [20:11] <MafaldaWeasley> Molly and Narcissa [20:11] <CarpeDiem> I always thought that soul tearing was something that had to be prepared and premeditated prior to the murder. I can't think soumeting as drastic sounding as "soul tearing" could be easy to do. [20:11] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> maybe Snape's mother did? and that's why he's so angry... to quote Hook "he needs a mother very, very badly!" [20:11] <LilyFlower> Well about Merope, given the chance I think she would change what she did [20:12] <nympheart> Petunia? [20:12] <fawkes28> look at the lengths she went to protect her son in HBP - i think she would even though she is on the bad side [20:12] <LilyFlower> If harry goes back in time [20:12] <Aislinn> I think she would, nymph, yes [20:12] <futureweasley> I think Narcissa underestimates her own strength...but that's a completely different chat. I think that Narcissa would put it on this line when the rubber hit the road for Draco [20:12] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> Harry can't change the past though, lily [20:12] <futureweasley> ooh, Nymph, I actually agree [20:12] <memyslfnI> I would love to stay, this is my favorite subject, but I have to go [20:12] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> her little duddykins... [20:12] <futureweasley> Petunia I think would also die to protect Dudders [20:12] <ProngsPatronus> awwww [20:12] <fawkes28> petunia would for dudley but never for Harry [20:13] *** memyslfnI has quit [Bye] [20:13] <nympheart> she shielded him from the Weasleys before [20:13] <LilyFlower> Semus's mother [20:13] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> Mrs. Longbottom [20:13] <CarpeDiem> I think as evil as Petunia comes across, she IS after all Lilly's sister. The potential for sacrafice is there. I wouldn't put itpast her. [20:13] <Jesus> Just because you sacrifice yourself doesn't make you Good, i believe Barty Crouch would have sacrificed himself for LV, but he is def. Evil [20:13] <futureweasley> yes Chocolate...Alice [20:13] <nympheart> maybe Lily, I think she thinks she would, but I'm not sure if she could actually do it [20:13] <LilyFlower> I hope se [20:13] <cbm> I think that almost every mother except merope would sacrifice, and look what happened to her son [20:13] <futureweasley> Does sacrificial love only have to be between a mother and her child in order to evoke the “old magic”? [20:14] <ProngsPatronus> no [20:14] <LilyFlower> Nerope didn't know what love was it's not her fault [20:14] <cbm> we do not know as it has never happened before [20:14] <nympheart> no, but I think it would be slightly different [20:14] <fawkes28> I think it has to be between people who are extremely close and know each other on a deeper level - like with the trio [20:14] <ProngsPatronus> or with DD and harry [20:14] <CarpeDiem> I think the love between a motehr and her child is some of the deepest love there is. If not that exactly, a truly, unwavering love would be needed. [20:14] <futureweasley> I think the connection is "deeper" between a mother and a child, given that the mother's womb houses the baby and the breast feeds the baby. I think it's just possibly more "significant" in magic's eyes [20:14] <fawkes28> i think there love for each other is so pure and selfless that a strong magic would be produced [20:14] <LilyFlower> True But I think the strangest is with a mother and her child [20:15] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> it seems like a blood relation would have to exist... Dumbledore knew that he would be able to transfer the protection through to Petunia, because of her relation to Lily [20:15] <Expelliarmas> no. It simply has to be a sacrifice based on love [20:15] <Jesus> Well DD did say it had something to do with Blood relatives [20:15] <LilyFlower> I mean strongest, I can't can't type today [20:15] <ProngsPatronus> well, future, there is blood connected with that sacrifice, and I am not talking about being related [20:16] <fawkes28> i also think romantic love can be as powerful - Ginny and Harry's love would evoke strong magic [20:16] <Punky> I agree Lily, that bond is very strong, I think it would make the sacrifice very special [20:16] <nympheart> I think that would be something that could be different depending on the people involved, Jesus [20:16] <futureweasley> Did Dumbledore sacrifice his life? [20:16] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> Ginny and Harry's love isn't that strong..... they haven't had to live through any kind of relationship ordeals or had enough time to establish the kind of connection to make romantic love strong [20:16] <cbm> You may be right about other types of love, but we do not have enough information [20:16] <ProngsPatronus> yes, he did [20:16] <LilyFlower> yes [20:16] <MafaldaWeasley> yes, he did.. for Draco [20:16] <CarpeDiem> Fawkes, what about other types of love? DD's love for harry and vice versa? Is that love strong enough in youropinion? [20:17] <ProngsPatronus> for harry--it has always been about harry [20:17] <fawkes28> yes, i believe he did [20:17] <nympheart> in a less specific sense I think so [20:17] <cbm> In a way, he protected harry and that left him vulnerable [20:17] <fawkes28> i think their love for each other is strong enough to do that, Carpe [20:17] <fawkes28> it is completely selfless [20:17] <ProngsPatronus> I do, too [20:17] <CarpeDiem> Good, fawkes smile [20:17] *** Jesus left #lounge [] [20:17] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> I think Snape forced Dumbledore to choose [20:18] <LilyFlower> But Harry needed DD to die in order to defeat LV on his own [20:18] <fawkes28> i also think that Dumbledore may have been trying to protect Hogwarts by his sacrifice This post has been edited by Aislinn: Apr 18 2007, 08:39 PM |
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