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WWW(F) Corner Booth Transcript: Mar 23, 2007, Trust, loyalty and betrayal

SoonerGryffindor View Member Profile	Mar 23 2007, 08:33 PM Post #1
WeasleyCast's Hostess With The Mostest Posts: 6,606 Joined: 2:44am February 20, 2006 Location: At The Burrow taking cooking lessons from Molly	Today's chat was brought to you and moderated by Aislinn, cloudpic, Expelliarmas, fawkes28, futureweasley, and SoonerGryffindor [17:58] * SoonerGryffindor has joined #lounge [17:58] * Topic is: WWF chat on Trust, Loyalty, and Betrayal [17:58] * Topic set by Aislinn [Thu Dec 7 20:19:15 2006] [18:00] * chocolateisnotforbreakfast has joined #lounge [18:01] *** Joyhawk2121 has joined #lounge [18:01] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> waves furiously [18:01] * artlady has joined #lounge [18:01] <futureweasley> chocolate!! [18:01] <futureweasley> Joy!! [18:01] <futureweasley> artlady!! [18:01] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> hey future!! [18:01] <fawkes28> hello all smile [18:01] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> lol [18:01] <SoonerGryffindor> hello everyone [18:01] <futureweasley> welcome to Friday Night Corner Booth Lights [18:01] <SoonerGryffindor> welcome to WWF [18:01] <Joyhawk2121> hello everyone [18:01] <Aislinn> hi folks! [18:01] <Expelliarmas> artlady!!! [18:01] <Aislinn> artlady, is the booth working for you? [18:01] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> haha, guess what, guys... tonight i'm attempting my very first real-life harry potter craft [18:02] <SoonerGryffindor> what is it? [18:02] <Aislinn> really, chocolate? [18:02] <Expelliarmas> nope, she can't type anything, Aislinn [18:02] <Aislinn> boo [18:02] * Joyhawk2121 has quit [Bye] [18:02] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> it's a golden snitch for my car... you know those decals of golf balls that look like they've hit your car window? I'm creating a snitch [18:02] * fawkes28 hugs artlady [18:02] * danielk has joined #lounge [18:02] <SoonerGryffindor> that is really cool [18:02] * Joyhawk2121 has joined #lounge [18:02] <futureweasley> hi daniel [18:02] <SoonerGryffindor> did you find it in our craft section? [18:02] <danielk> hello hello [18:02] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> nope, sooner... out my own noggin [18:02] <SoonerGryffindor> hello daniel [18:03] <SoonerGryffindor> wow, that's cool [18:03] <danielk> aloha [18:03] <futureweasley> chocolate, you will have to take pictures and post them..you have an LJ, right? [18:03] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> sure do [18:03] <futureweasley> I'm totally interested to see how it turns out!! [18:03] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i hope it'll work - i just sort of bought an assortment of crafty things that i might need lol [18:03] * SoonerGryffindor failed first grade crafts [18:03] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> haha sooner! [18:03] <futureweasley> me too Sooner [18:03] <futureweasley> lol [18:03] <SoonerGryffindor> seriously, I am artistically challenged [18:04] <futureweasley> I have no craft skills, but my bowstaff skills are outrageous [18:04] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> haha future [18:04] <SoonerGryffindor> oh my [18:04] *** nympheart has joined #lounge [18:05] <SoonerGryffindor> what about your computer hacking skills? [18:05] <fawkes28> i stink at art as well - big time [18:05] <futureweasley> hi nymph [18:05] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i'm gonna go grab the rest of my leftover burger from lunch microwaving skills [18:05] <nympheart> hello! [18:05] * animaguscow has joined #lounge [18:05] <futureweasley> I'm a hacker from way back [18:05] <futureweasley> lol [18:05] <futureweasley> hi animaguscow! [18:05] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> omg... that's a hilarious screenname [18:05] <animaguscow> hi! [18:05] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> animagus cow... [18:05] <SoonerGryffindor> hello animagus [18:05] * Punky has joined #lounge [18:05] <SoonerGryffindor> hey punky [18:05] <Joyhawk2121> hi Punky [18:05] <futureweasley> hi punky [18:06] <Punky> Hi guys! [18:06] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> holla punky brewster! [18:06] *** artlady has quit [Bye] [18:07] <nympheart> silence [18:07] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> hahaha i was gonna do a test [18:07] <futureweasley> I've been writing a new filk this evening...that's where all my "crafty genes" went [18:07] <danielk> well im reading lord of the rings right now [18:07] <danielk> so i am waiting for the chat to begin [18:07] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> hehe me too future!!! [18:07] <futureweasley> really?! yay for filks [18:07] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> you're a legend, i've heard [18:07] <nympheart> I actually cleaned my room this week and found a filk I wrote and then lost [18:07] <futureweasley> pfffft [18:07] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> someone was singing your praises a few nights ago [18:07] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> no pun intended [18:07] <futureweasley> what are you writing? [18:08] <fawkes28> future is an awesome filk writer and singer [18:08] <nympheart> future is amazing [18:08] * futureweasley blushes [18:08] * atschpe has joined #lounge [18:08] <futureweasley> hi atschpe [18:08] <Expelliarmas> heya atschpe [18:08] <nympheart> hi atschpe [18:08] <Aislinn> hi atschpe [18:08] * artlady has joined #lounge [18:08] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> ohh... what's atchpe stand for? [18:08] <fawkes28> hey atschpe [18:09] * fawkes28 crosses finers for artlady [18:09] <atschpe> Hi there [18:09] *** bemused has joined #lounge [18:09] <fawkes28> fingers [18:09] <fawkes28> hey bemused [18:09] <atschpe> Think initals chocolate [18:09] <bemused> hello! [18:09] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> omg guys... i just popped an alcoholic beverage... got into some sweats... this is the best corner booth ever! [18:10] <SoonerGryffindor> LOL [18:10] <Expelliarmas> the cocktail CB for cinfb [18:10] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> relaxing to have it on a friday... no worries [18:10] <Punky> lol, a good way to spend a friday night, I like it! [18:10] nympheart is underage [18:10] <SoonerGryffindor> definitely [18:10] * futureweasley forces herself to not comment about how well alcohol and the Corner Booth compliment each other [18:10] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> hehehe [18:10] * diamonddawn has joined #lounge [18:10] <Aislinn> way to not comment, there, future laugh [18:10] <futureweasley> LOL [18:11] <diamonddawn> hello [18:11] <futureweasley> hi dawn [18:11] <SoonerGryffindor> hello diamond [18:11] <Punky> Hi Dawn [18:11] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i cant figure out the initials, atschpe.... sad [18:11] <diamonddawn> biggrin [18:11] <nympheart> sound it out chocolate [18:11] <Expelliarmas> cisnb ... "h" "p" ... [18:11] <futureweasley> lol [18:11] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> daggone it! [18:11] <atschpe> lol … yep Expie got it [18:11] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> got it [18:12] * eibrab has joined #lounge [18:12] <atschpe> I've got the same as dear ol' Harry [18:12] <SoonerGryffindor> hello eibrab [18:12] <futureweasley> hi eibrab [18:12] <Aislinn> hi eibrab [18:12] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i started it like the word "at" [18:12] <nympheart> hi eibrab [18:12] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> backwards barbie! [18:12] *** NYBookworm has joined #lounge [18:12] <futureweasley> hi NYBookworm [18:12] <SoonerGryffindor> Hey HYB [18:12] <NYBookworm> hi [18:12] * futureweasley does her Friday dance [18:12] <eibrab> Yes, chocolate (which I say is for breakfast)-- hello! [18:12] * atschpe joind future [18:13] * Expelliarmas is too tired to dance [18:13] <futureweasley> I love Fridays...I feel like Vernon feels about Sundays about Fridays [18:13] * nympheart danced earlier today [18:13] <bemused> I'm confused [18:13] <diamonddawn> get down with yourself there firewisky [18:13] * fawkes28 agrees with Expie [18:13] * artlady has quit [Bye] [18:13] * artlady has joined #lounge [18:13] <futureweasley> hi bemused [18:13] <bemused> hello future [18:13] <futureweasley> hmm, am I stuck? [18:13] * HPotterExpert2 has joined #lounge [18:13] <Expelliarmas> nope, I see you [18:13] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> future is to friday as vernon is to sundays... [18:13] <fawkes28> nope [18:13] <futureweasley> hi HPExpert2 [18:14] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> sounds like a complicated SAT question [18:14] <diamonddawn> lol [18:14] <futureweasley> lol chocolate [18:14] <futureweasley> sounds like a test I can miss [18:14] * HPotterExpert2 left #lounge [] [18:14] <Expelliarmas> or sundaes [18:14] <futureweasley> let's hope that's not on the next wombat [18:14] * HPotterExpert2 has joined #lounge [18:14] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> guys! i haven't taken a wombat! ever! unfairness rules the HP world [18:14] <Aislinn> I want the next WOMBAT to come, already! [18:14] <SoonerGryffindor> Okay guys, is everyone ready to start? [18:14] <diamonddawn> i hope the next wombat comes soon [18:14] <HPotterExpert2> hi all! [18:14] <Expelliarmas> yep [18:14] <Aislinn> I thought Jo was going to give us something this week [18:14] <diamonddawn> really [18:14] <Aislinn> yes, let's chat! [18:14] <futureweasley> me too Aislinn [18:14] <nympheart> why this week? [18:15] <futureweasley> chat it up [18:15] <SoonerGryffindor> We will be starting the discussion in a few minutes. You’re not going to be able to type for a few minutes while we make some announcements, please bear with us, you’ll be able to type again soon. [18:15] <SoonerGryffindor> There may be times during the chat when a moderator will want to PM something to you. Please keep an eye on the top of your screen, right next to the button with #Lounge on it. A button will appear with one of the mods' names on it. If you see that appear, click on it to see the PM that has been sent to you by that mod [18:15] * danielk has quit [Bye] [18:15] * danielk has joined #lounge [18:15] <SoonerGryffindor> You won’t be able to reply to that PM, but if you could just say something like "Sooner, got it” in the main chat, to let us know that you have seen it, that will be great. We'd also like to remind you that the rules of the Lounge also apply here in the Corner Booth, and may be found here: http://www.leakylounge.com/?act=rules [18:15] <SoonerGryffindor> If you need to contact us during the chat, send one, or all, of us a PM on the Lounge. We will be checking them regularly, but if we haven't replied after a little while then please let us know here that you have sent a PM. Thanks for your cooperation! [18:15] <SoonerGryffindor> While its easy to drift off in various directions, let's all try to have a fun chat by sticking to the topic for today. OK, moving on to the topic for the chat! [18:15] <Expelliarmas> Trust, loyalty and betrayal. Any good story is almost bound to contain these themes, and the Harry Potter series (which is not only good, but GREAT) is no exception. Having faith in someone and having that trust broken is a terrible and dramatic thing. [18:16] <Expelliarmas> Throughout the series, we are presented with many examples of trust, loyalty and betrayal. We also see how Harry develops as a result of relationships that involve these three themes. There are many lessons to be learned – for Harry, for other characters, and certainly for us. [18:16] <Expelliarmas> How would you define trust? [18:16] <SoonerGryffindor> that's pretty hard actally Expie [18:16] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> when you trust someone to do a task, you're expecting them to fulfill your wishes [18:16] <diamonddawn> for me trust would equil love [18:16] <nympheart> I think there's two different kinds of trust [18:16] <futureweasley> complete ability to give yourself to another...your thoughts, your heart, and your physical well-being [18:17] <fawkes28> trust is the ability to know that the other person is being honest with you and has your best intentions at heart [18:17] <SoonerGryffindor> You don't have to like someone to trust them [18:17] <Expelliarmas> No one said it'd be an easy chat [18:17] <atschpe> Knowing the other is there for you regardless what happens [18:17] <atschpe> lol Expie [18:17] <bemused> The confidence that someone else will act or think or be as you expect [18:17] * hrh7 has joined #lounge [18:17] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i agree nymph.. there's a virtuous kind of trust, and a "predicting someone's actions" kind of trust [18:17] <bemused> ...based on what you know of them [18:17] <hrh7> Hi [18:17] <futureweasley> I guess I've always wrapped "love" into "trust" too [18:18] <diamonddawn> but when they let you down. How much trust do you have with them then [18:18] <Aislinn> that's true, chocolate - like I trust that Dudders will always act the bully [18:18] <atschpe> Depends on their reaction afterwards diamond [18:18] * artlady has quit [Bye] [18:18] <fawkes28> i think to have complete trust in someone you need to love them to some degree [18:18] <SoonerGryffindor> For example, the Order trusted Snape, but only because DD vouched for him [18:18] * ProngsPatronus has joined #lounge [18:18] <futureweasley> hi prongs [18:18] <Aislinn> hi prongs [18:18] <SoonerGryffindor> hey Prongs [18:18] <atschpe> Hi prongs [18:18] <nympheart> trust is definitely connected to love, the "virtuous" trust [18:18] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i think of my parents trust in me... they trust me to make the right decisions, so when i ask to do something that's open-ended, they trust it's not going to lead me to jail [18:18] <ProngsPatronus> hello, all! [18:19] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> and if i do land in jail... the trust goes away [18:19] <diamonddawn> You have good parents there chocolate [18:19] <ProngsPatronus> what is the question? [18:19] <NYBookworm> the belief that someone or something can be depended on [18:19] * artlady has joined #lounge [18:19] <Aislinn> we are discussing the definition of trust [18:19] <Expelliarmas> I don't have to love someone to have trust in that person; respect, yes--love not so much [18:19] <futureweasley> trust is being able to accept that your secrets are safe with another [18:19] * HPotterExpert2 has quit [Bye] [18:19] <ProngsPatronus> thanks [18:19] <SoonerGryffindor> I think the hardest thing about trusting is that you have to give up some control of the situation [18:19] <Punky> I agree Expie, I think it's more tied to respect [18:19] <ProngsPatronus> to trust is to be vulnerable [18:19] <fawkes28> i agree, future [18:20] <futureweasley> totally Prongs [18:20] <Aislinn> yes, Prongs, I think that is very true [18:20] <futureweasley> you have to know what you are getting into when you choose to trust someone [18:20] <fawkes28> trust takes time - you dont automatically trust someone [18:20] <ProngsPatronus> it is allied to love, because they use the same emotional signposts [18:20] <diamonddawn> but you can keep secrets for someone you don't trust. Because they have trust in you [18:21] <futureweasley> that's true, too, dawn [18:21] <Expelliarmas> What do you consider to be the distinction between loyalty and trust? Can you be loyal to someone you don't really trust? [18:21] * Narya has joined #lounge [18:21] <ProngsPatronus> yes [18:21] <fawkes28> hi narya [18:21] <bemused> Yes - I think you can [18:21] <SoonerGryffindor> It is more difficult, but possible [18:21] <futureweasley> I think you can be, yes [18:21] <ProngsPatronus> hey, Narya! [18:21] <Aislinn> narya, nice to see you [18:21] <Joyhawk2121> I think you can [18:21] <Narya> Hi all [18:21] <ProngsPatronus> we can be loyal to a country, even though we do not trust the government [18:21] <Expelliarmas> No, I can't be loyal to someone I don't trust [18:22] <diamonddawn> brb, [18:22] <fawkes28> yes, i think you can be loyal yo someone that you dont trust [18:22] <nympheart> I don't think you can, you can appear to be though [18:22] <bemused> You can be loyal to a partner you can't trust [18:22] <eibrab> I could be loyal, but guarded, if I don't trust someone [18:22] <NYBookworm> you can be loyal without trust. You can keep yourself from betraying someone even though you don't trust them [18:22] <ProngsPatronus> I think it is easier when it is a government than when it is personal [18:22] <Expelliarmas> I couldn't, bemused; for me they are intertwined [18:22] <atschpe> Good point NYB [18:22] <Aislinn> that's true, NYB [18:22] <Joyhawk2121> you can be loyal to a boss you don't trust [18:22] <fawkes28> yes, bemused - like that corporate mentality [18:23] <SoonerGryffindor> If you have made a promise to be loyal to someone, for a higher reason, then I do think you not need to trust them, but you can be loyal to them. It really all depends on the situation [18:23] <bemused> I think loyalty is more of a choice than trust [18:23] <hrh7> Would you want to be loyal to someone you don't trust? [18:23] <Narya> I don't think I could be loyal to someone I don't trust - or even to a government I didn't trust, for that matter [18:23] * MafaldaWeasley has joined #lounge [18:23] <futureweasley> I keep thinking of an employer/employee relationship. You might not trust that your boss has the best intentions for you, but you are a loyal employee [18:23] <diamonddawn> I agree there eibrab. You are garded. But you still have faith in yourself to be honesty and loyal [18:23] <Aislinn> loyalty is a decision you make about how you are going to behave, while trust is a belief you have in someone else's behaviour [18:23] <fawkes28> i think it is easier in business to be loyal to someone you dont trust rather than in your personal life [18:23] <SoonerGryffindor> I really like that definition Aislinn [18:23] <ProngsPatronus> trust is more personal to me than that, though, Aislinn' [18:24] <MafaldaWeasley> hello guys. Sorry I'm late. What was the question? [18:24] <futureweasley> absolutely fawkes, you are very right [18:24] * NYBookworm has quit [Bye] [18:24] <bemused> loyalty is something you do, trust something you feel [18:24] <diamonddawn> i agree prongs [18:24] * NYBookworm has joined #lounge [18:24] <Narya> I think PP is right - trust is a really, really personal thing [18:24] <atschpe> Sorry, got to nip out for a bit – see you later [18:24] <fawkes28> nice point, bemused [18:24] <Joyhawk2121> their are different levels of trust [18:24] <nympheart> but if you're acting something you don't feel, it's not genuine [18:24] * atschpe has quit [Bye] [18:24] * artlady has quit [Bye] [18:24] <Aislinn> that belief can be grounded in love, prongs [18:24] <SoonerGryffindor> bye atschpe [18:24] <Aislinn> but it is still a belief in another [18:24] <futureweasley> I like that, bemused...loyalty is a choice, trust is more of an instinct [18:24] <Narya> Once your trust is broken, it never really comes back - nothing is ever the same again [18:24] <eibrab> loyalty is a choice you make to guide your actions, whereas trust is more of a gift (your vulnerability included) that you give someone [18:25] <Expelliarmas> repeating the question for Mafalda: What do you consider to be the distinction between loyalty and trust? Can you be loyal to someone you don't really trust? [18:25] <ProngsPatronus> good point, eibrab [18:25] <diamonddawn> but you forget the parental trust. All parents trust and get betrayed. But contrinue to trust again and again [18:25] <futureweasley> silly wabbits [18:26] <Expelliarmas> Does trust have to be earned? [18:26] <futureweasley> absolutely [18:26] <diamonddawn> oh for sure [18:26] <nympheart> yes [18:26] <Narya> I definitely think that trust has to be earned [18:26] <Punky> Not always, some people trust blindly [18:26] <ProngsPatronus> yes [18:26] <Expelliarmas> I think trust builds up gradually; I can have trust in someone until they prove me wrong [18:26] <animaguscow> yeah! [18:26] <Joyhawk2121> true punky [18:26] <Aislinn> I think that's true punky [18:26] <eibrab> Do they really trust? As a parent, I don't always trust-- I hope for the best, but I'm not blind if there is a reason to not trust my child [18:26] <ProngsPatronus> real trust has to be earned, I think [18:26] <futureweasley> yes Punky, and a fat lot of good it does those who do [18:26] <SoonerGryffindor> I think it depends on the situation [18:26] <nympheart> usually those blind people think they have a reason to trust [18:26] <MafaldaWeasley> I think loaylty is such a deeper level of trust [18:27] <diamonddawn> I trust my kids. But they have to rebuild my trust when it's broken [18:27] <bemused> It changes in quality when it's based on knowledge/experience [18:27] <fawkes28> yes, it is that way with my students too [18:27] <ProngsPatronus> trust is not static [18:27] * danielk has quit [Bye] [18:27] <SoonerGryffindor> I think that there is a certain amount of trust that does not have to be earned, but a deep level of trust would need to be earned [18:27] <ProngsPatronus> it grows and develops as the relationship does [18:27] * Aislinn has quit [Bye] [18:27] * Aislinn has joined #lounge [18:27] <futureweasley> I think trust can be assumed, too. Like, you know someone who knows someone they trust. Therefore, you trust as well. That has to do with respect for the middleman [18:27] <diamonddawn> sorry all gotta go deal with thoose kids i was talking about. Bye for now [18:28] * diamonddawn has quit [Bye] [18:28] <Expelliarmas> I think it ebbs and flows with the relationship [18:28] <nympheart> that's true, sooner, and that initial trust varies depending on the person's personality [18:28] <ProngsPatronus> trust has a lot to do with security [18:28] <futureweasley> yes prongs [18:28] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i think loyalty is defined in part by how much you can continue to trust a person, even after they do something to betray that trust. Harry continues to be loyal to dumbledore, even though dumbledore has done a lot of things, like keeping the prophesy a secret, that betrayed harry's trust. but harry's loyalty is still strong, even after the trust is broken [18:28] <eibrab> I gotta fix dinner-- I hope to stop in later! [18:29] * eibrab has quit [Bye] [18:29] <ProngsPatronus> I think, though, that loyalty can also become a habit [18:29] <Expelliarmas> Dumbledore repeatedly says he trusts Snape for a very good reason. Do you think the other Order members trusted him, or did they simply take Dumbledore's word for it? [18:29] <Aislinn> I think they took his word for it [18:29] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> they took dumbledore's word, definitely... [18:29] <futureweasley> there's that "assumed" trust again [18:29] <Joyhawk2121> DD word [18:29] <ProngsPatronus> I thinkthat they took DD's word for it [18:30] <nympheart> they trusted because DD did [18:30] <Expelliarmas> The Order members had a begruding trust on DD's say so [18:30] <SoonerGryffindor> exactly [18:30] <Expelliarmas> DD lent his credibility to Snape [18:30] <SoonerGryffindor> they figured he had an iron-clad reason [18:30] <NYBookworm> I think they took DD word for it, I don't think Snape would've opened up in any way to give anyone else a reason to trust him [18:30] <ProngsPatronus> yes--Snape rode into the Order on DD's coattails [18:30] <SoonerGryffindor> and becuase of their immense respect of DD's opinion, they trusted by proxy [18:30] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> lupin trusted snape to a degree... trusted him to give him potion... but snape definitely betrayed what trust anyone might have had in him. [18:30] <Aislinn> the way that Lupin, McGonagall and Tonks talked about it after the events on the Tower, it definitely didn't sound like they trusted him on their own beliefs [18:30] <bemused> I think that really counts as trust in Dumbledore, though , rather than trust in Snape [18:30] <hrh7> They took his word for it except Remus who trusted him because he helped him with his potion while he was at Hogwarts. [18:30] <futureweasley> Hermione trusts Dumbledore. Dumbledore trusts Snape. Therefore, Hermione trusts Snape. There is so much logic behind it...a very Hermione-ish analysis, I know [18:30] <MafaldaWeasley> I think they just took DD's word. I think some of them may have trusted Snape for real, but others.... [18:31] <Aislinn> I agree, bemused - it was trust and loyalty towards DD, more than trust of Snape [18:31] <Punky> But some of them also have a past history with him so there has to be more than just blind trust on DD's word [18:31] <bemused> Hagrid seemed to trust Snape more completely [18:31] <nympheart> Remus cited only one reason for trusting Snape... and that was DD's judgement [18:31] <Aislinn> the history actually causes them to question that trust, punky [18:31] <futureweasley> if DD hadn't vouched over and over again for Snape, everyone would have seen him for what he could very well be...a liar [18:31] <bemused> but then, he's a trusting soul [18:31] <SoonerGryffindor> I htink chocolate makes a good point for one of Lupin's reasons to trust Snape [18:32] <MafaldaWeasley> Past can be very tricky. I think they do not trust Snape for his past [18:32] * Pleshette has joined #lounge [18:32] <Aislinn> i see Hagrid's view as blind trust, bemused, based on his total faith in DD [18:32] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> but they did trust snape... they talked openly about so many things in his presence. Even if they were loyal to dumbledore, a lot of them could have saved their words until he wasn't aroudn. they trusted him. they trusted him because dumbledore did, but they still trusted him [18:32] <hrh7> Remus also told Harry he trusted him because he helped him while he was teaching [18:32] * Narya has quit [Bye] [18:32] <ProngsPatronus> I don't think that Snape helps anyone trust him, either. [18:32] <futureweasley> hi pleshette [18:32] <bemused> And I'm sure some of the others must have had enough experience after all those year of teaching with him, [18:32] <MafaldaWeasley> yeah PP [18:32] <ProngsPatronus> Mundungus has a shady past, but he is at least engaging [18:33] <Aislinn> that's quite true, prongs [18:33] <ProngsPatronus> Snape makes no effort to engage with any of the Order members [18:33] <bemused> to have reasons to trust (or not) [18:33] <futureweasley> Dung has never lied or tried to cover up who he is...everyone who knows him trusts him to be himself [18:33] <nympheart> well said future [18:33] <SoonerGryffindor> but we have already seen in the actions of BCJ that outward appearances can be deceiving [18:34] <Pleshette> Hi everyone! [18:34] <SoonerGryffindor> hey Pleshette [18:34] <Expelliarmas> Do you feel that Snape trusts anyone? Why or why not? [18:34] <Aislinn> hi pleshette smile [18:34] <ProngsPatronus> thus, while they continue to allow Snape "houseroom", I think that trust was solely on DD's word, and easily withdrawn after the Tower [18:34] <SoonerGryffindor> I think that Snape trusted DD [18:34] <Aislinn> he doesn't seem to, no [18:34] <futureweasley> Snape trusts himself... [18:34] <Joyhawk2121> snape does not care if the others trust him only DD trust [18:34] <nympheart> he sticks to himself a lot, I don't think he's a trusting person [18:34] <Punky> He's a good example of being loyal but not trusting [18:34] <Aislinn> is he? [18:34] <bemused> If he trust anyone, it's DD - but I suspedt he's too much of a loner to find trust easy [18:34] <ProngsPatronus> I think Snape trusts one person--himself [18:35] <Aislinn> I don't see him as loyal either [18:35] <SoonerGryffindor> but I think that DD may be the only person that he regarded highly enough to trust [18:35] <futureweasley> that's questionable, Punky...Snape's loyalty, that is [18:35] <MafaldaWeasley> Wow, that's a difficult question... I think he trusts Narcissa and no one else. [18:35] <SoonerGryffindor> Nacrissa? [18:35] <Expelliarmas> I don't believe Snape trusted DD--but he certainly used him [18:35] <ProngsPatronus> and his loyalty can be bought, if one has power enough [18:35] <Aislinn> which is not true loyalty, at least to anyone besides himself [18:35] <nympheart> then the trust is in the price, not the person [18:35] <Punky> I think he's loyal to DD but not trusting of him...but yes it is questionale [18:35] <ProngsPatronus> yes [18:36] <bemused> But this is really the question, isn't it - some of us think he could still prove loyal, some don't [18:36] <SoonerGryffindor> No way we are going to know till after DH, but I do think that Snape had to trust in DD immensely for his actions at the end of HBP to make sense [18:36] <MafaldaWeasley> Yeah Sooner. he trusted her enough for some reason. But I thinkmost of the time he really enjoys been on his self [18:36] <ProngsPatronus> I do think that Snape is loyal to the science of magic, though [18:36] <ProngsPatronus> he took his expertise in potions very seriouslyu [18:36] <Pleshette> I agree Prongs [18:37] <bemused> I agree, Sooner [18:37] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i just keep thinking of Aladdin... when he holds out his hand to Jasmine and says "Do you trust me?" It's a question that's basically saying "Do you believe that I'm going to keep you safe and unharmed on this magic carpet ride?" I think snape trusts in dumbledore to keep him safe... he trusts in voldemort to give him confidence as a spy so that death eaters can't attack him [18:37] <Aislinn> true, bemused, some of us feel he will never be loyal to anyone but himself, while others believe that an act on his part in the next book that helps Harry will show him to be loyal [18:37] * Aislinn has quit [Bye] [18:37] * Aislinn has joined #lounge [18:37] <nympheart> Snape was a social outcast, he's been conditioned to not trust others, I think any loyalty is for appearance only [18:38] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> if he didn't trust voldemort to not torture him or kill him, he wouldn't keep returning. and he trusts the Order to keep his identity as a spy a secret [18:38] <Expelliarmas> The Marauders were once a tight-knit group of friends. How do we see trust and loyalty break down in their relationship? [18:38] <SoonerGryffindor> wow [18:38] <MafaldaWeasley> Prejudice [18:38] <SoonerGryffindor> where to start? [18:38] <futureweasley> the secret keeper incident [18:38] <Aislinn> I would love to know more about what happened with that group [18:38] <futureweasley> definitely the capstone [18:38] <ProngsPatronus> do we have a day or so to answer this question? [18:38] * ltbrave23 has joined #lounge [18:38] <bemused> I doubt that they were ever really that tight-knit, Expie [18:38] <futureweasley> lol Prongs [18:39] <futureweasley> hi ltbrave [18:39] <MafaldaWeasley> Gosh! I have a good work on that [18:39] <ltbrave23> hey [18:39] <SoonerGryffindor> I think that a lack of mutual respect is as much to blame as much as the issue of trust [18:39] <Aislinn> the trust broke down so completely there [18:39] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> oh this is easy... lily! :-P [18:39] * Shard has joined #lounge [18:39] <nympheart> I think the problems came from some parts being tighter than others [18:39] * fawkes28 has quit [Bye] [18:39] <Aislinn> hey shard [18:39] <bemused> I reckon it was James and Sirius at the centre [18:39] <Shard> Hiya [18:39] <Pleshette> It seems like during LV first reign Lupin was suspected of not being loyal [18:39] <Shard> Were talking Marauders? [18:39] <nympheart> I agree bemused [18:39] <ProngsPatronus> I think that the three assumed the same traits about the fourth that were simply not there [18:39] <Aislinn> and the trust and loyalty remained strong with that pair, yes bemused [18:39] <futureweasley> I think that Voldemort did what he does best...worked to make trusting friends accuse eachother of treachery [18:40] <bemused> .. enjoying the danger and the challenge of Lupin - and liking him - and tolerating Peter [18:40] <SoonerGryffindor> The Marauders, unlike the trio, were not tested in life and death situations growing up [18:40] <Expelliarmas> I think they grew apart as they got older and Peter sowed the seeds of distrust which gave fruit for Peter [18:40] <nympheart> I've never understood that, Pleshette, the Order knew there was a traitor, but the Marauders had no reason to suspect it was one of them that we know of [18:40] <Shard> I disagree SG [18:40] <SoonerGryffindor> so by the time they were adults, that implicit trust was not htere [18:40] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> didn't the Marauders suspect Lupin? [18:40] <Shard> What about the Shjreiking Shack incident, not nessarly dangerous for Lupin but to James certainly [18:40] <Aislinn> I think having to deal with Lupin's lycanthropy had a life and death component, sooner [18:40] <bemused> From the glimpses we've seen, I don't think Peter was on a par witht he others [18:40] <SoonerGryffindor> Shard, you think the Marauders had as many tests as the trio did? [18:40] <futureweasley> they suspected everybody [18:40] <Shard> Not on the same level [18:40] <SoonerGryffindor> having to work as a unit to stay alive? [18:40] <Pleshette> that's so true nympheart [18:41] <Shard> But Lupin does seem, to indicate that what he did was a Werewolf was dangerous and a little foolish [18:41] <Aislinn> and they came out of school at a time when LV was rising to power [18:41] <nympheart> right, bemused, he just gave James and Sirius the attention they wanted [18:41] <futureweasley> there was nothing but finger pointing being done...and it's all due to Peter being in James's ear constantly [18:41] <Shard> but they did have to work as a unit I think to keep Lupin's werewolf in check [18:41] <Expelliarmas> the Trio had the advantage of knowing how LV rolls; the Marauders did not [18:41] <Shard> How in the wolrd could they suspect Lupin but not Peter?? [18:41] <futureweasley> pointing out the reasons that both Sirius and Lupin should not be trusted [18:41] <ProngsPatronus> actually, we are never told that James did not trust lupin [18:41] <SoonerGryffindor> I also do think that mutual respect had a lot to do with it. Face it.... James and Sirius really did consider themselves about the other 2 [18:41] <MafaldaWeasley> I think the main problem was that Peter knew then, and he knew who to work with them using their weakness [18:41] <Aislinn> but Sirius didn't trust Lupin, prongs [18:41] <ProngsPatronus> only that Sirius suspected him, and the reverse [18:42] <ltbrave23> it's easier to suspect a werewolf shard [18:42] <futureweasley> you're right Prongs...it is assumed [18:42] <Aislinn> and if he didn't, it makes one wonder about James [18:42] <bemused> If the 'worst memory' is anything to go by, I think the seed of the break-up was there fromt he beginning [18:42] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> PP, do you think that they would have chosen Lupin over Peter, if they didnt suspect lupin? [18:42] <Shard> That dpoesn't say much for the friendship [18:42] <Expelliarmas> I don't know that I can say James and sirius thought themselves better than Lupin [18:42] <futureweasley> well, they were very hard times [18:42] <Pleshette> Maybe because Lupin was always the cautious one, the one who held them back a bit [18:42] <futureweasley> and it was difficult to know who to trust [18:42] <Aislinn> It seems that Peter must have been sowing seeds of suspicion between the group, turning one against the other [18:42] <Shard> When they suspect a Werewolf who has never betrayed them all tyhose years but they think a sychophantic little punk like Pter is the one to trust [18:42] <SoonerGryffindor> Exactly, their friendship was not tempered over the years, so it shattered at a most inopportune time [18:42] <bemused> No - it doesn't, Shard [18:42] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> ohh good call aislinn [18:42] <futureweasley> they made a very wrong decision and paid dearly [18:43] <Shard> I agree they paid for it alright [18:43] <Joyhawk2121> maybe they thought peter harmless [18:43] <ProngsPatronus> I think that Sirius could talk James into almost anything [18:43] <futureweasley> yes, Peter caused the discord in a major way...he knew exactly what he was doing [18:43] <ltbrave23> they underestimated him [18:43] <Shard> Peter must have helped that divide between frids [18:43] <Aislinn> I think Peter was exceedingly good at inserting subtle little hints that cast doubt among the group [18:43] <MafaldaWeasley> I think that in one hand you have a werewolf, on the other hand a lunatic from a traditional pureblood family, and then you have a very spoiled boy , Peter was just spreading his poison all over the place [18:44] <Shard> nod Now that IU look at Peter in this light, I truly do hate the little rat who dvided friends against each pother for Voldemort's cause [18:44] <ProngsPatronus> * agree, Aislinn [18:44] <Expelliarmas> Peter played a huge part in misdirecting attention from himself and onto two of the stronger Marauders to clear the path for him to nail James [18:44] <Aislinn> exactly, expie [18:44] <ProngsPatronus> yes, expie--the tyranny of the weak [18:44] <MafaldaWeasley> Yeah expie [18:45] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> he just doesn't seem that smart... i mean, i guess it doesn't take that much intelligence to pit people against each other, but that seems liek the kind of scheming that is too over his head [18:45] <bemused> 'cept I don't think Peter's weak, Prongs - he seems to be constantly underestimated [18:45] <ProngsPatronus> cunning [18:45] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> but maybe that's what they were counting on.. he couldn't possibly be smart enough [18:45] <Aislinn> I think he is quite cunning, chocolate [18:45] <ltbrave23> i don't think he was really ever given that much thought [18:45] <Aislinn> he is weak in character, bemused [18:45] <Expelliarmas> Peter plays the role of weak wizard well; keeps him from having to do anything himself [18:45] <ltbrave23> so he was allowed to move in the shadows so to speak [18:45] <Expelliarmas> Many people trust Dumbledore because he is a wise, honorable wizard. Are there examples of those who don't trust Dumbledore? [18:45] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> fudge [18:46] <bemused> He's conniving - I still reserve judgement on weak [18:46] <NYBookworm> soooo many in OotP [18:46] <futureweasley> the entire ministry and half the wizarding community at large in OotP [18:46] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> nice vocab bemused :-D [18:46] <ProngsPatronus> the Ministry doesn't trust Dumbledore [18:46] <bemused> Fudge and the Ministry [18:46] <Aislinn> the fact that he was thrown off the Wizengamot [18:46] <SoonerGryffindor> I think they did trust him, but that they just fooled themseles [18:46] <futureweasley> right...the writers and editors of the Daily Prophet [18:46] <MafaldaWeasley> Fudge, Umbridge, [18:46] <ProngsPatronus> Percy, I think, does not trust Dumbledore [18:46] <futureweasley> I agree Prongs [18:46] <Aislinn> and obviously, Lucius and his cronies have never trusted Dumbledore [18:46] <Expelliarmas> the folks who don't trust DD had their own contrary agenda [18:46] <bemused> that's true, Prongs [18:46] <futureweasley> I also don't think Karkaroff trusted DD [18:47] <nympheart> moving backwards on the timeline, Tom was wary about DD because DD didn't trust him [18:47] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> Trelawney loses her trust in Dumbledore when he hires Firenze... her confidence in him is severely lacking in HBP [18:47] <futureweasley> look at the TriWizard tourne [18:47] <Pleshette> right expie [18:47] <SoonerGryffindor> I think that Draco was going to trust him [18:47] <Punky> A lot of wizards fear him but don't trust him [18:47] <Aislinn> yes, Punky, that's true [18:47] <ltbrave23> i think so to sooner [18:47] * TxHighlife has joined #lounge [18:47] <Aislinn> hi TxHighlife [18:48] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> Karkaroff accused Dumbledore of some terrible things during the Triwizard Tourney... he was def. not trusting of Dumbledore [18:48] * TxHighlife has quit [Bye] [18:48] *** TxHighlife has joined #lounge [18:48] <MafaldaWeasley> Slughorn wasn't trusting DD very much as well in the begining [18:48] <SoonerGryffindor> really when you think about it, DD is a highly trustworthy person, but his standoffishness makes it hard to get to know him, which works against hi,. Those who know the man behind the name trust him with their lives [18:48] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> haha oh Slug... i agree mafalda [18:49] <Expelliarmas> Slughorn did trust DD, but he was afraid for his own life [18:49] <SoonerGryffindor> I think Slughorn actually did trust DD [18:49] <ltbrave23> you're right sooner....it's hard to trust someone so powerful without knowing them [18:49] * SoonerGryffindor agrees with Expie [18:49] <Expelliarmas> otherwise, he wouldnt have taken the job [18:49] * TxHighlife has quit [Bye] [18:49] * TxHighlife has joined #lounge [18:49] <Expelliarmas> Dumbledore didn't really trust the young Tom Riddle. Should he have? [18:50] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i think the amount of trust that is required for dumbledore... like, you don't wanna be buddy buddy with him unless you can trust him to save you when the Death Eaters come knocking at your door, accusing you of being a member of the Order... even if you're not, lke Slug, you need to trust him [18:50] <MafaldaWeasley> I don't think he trusted DD in the begining. I think he was forced to accpet it in order to keep his security [18:50] <Aislinn> absolutely not [18:50] <ProngsPatronus> no [18:50] <bemused> No [18:50] <Expelliarmas> DD was willing to be convinced otherwise, the little psycopath never managed it though [18:50] <ltbrave23> no...he gave him a second chance and was waiting to be shown by tom that he was trustworthy, but he never proved himself to dd [18:50] <Aislinn> the signs that were so evident when he met him at the orphanage were ample reason for DD to be wary [18:50] <Joyhawk2121> no he never proved to be trusted [18:50] <Punky> Yes, he definitely made the right choice [18:50] <MafaldaWeasley> I think he never did cause Tom was seriously damamged already [18:50] <SoonerGryffindor> I am actually so glad to see that DD did not trust blindly or stupidly [18:50] <Aislinn> me too, sooner [18:51] <bemused> He gave him a chance, guardedly, but he'd seen enough to know that it was unlikely to help [18:51] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i think dumbledore was right in letting Tom have a second chance... but tom's second chance was MUCH different than Snape's second chance. While he professes to trust snape, he never trusted tom... he recognized the character flaws in Tom, not just the bad choices [18:51] <Pleshette> good point sooner [18:51] <ProngsPatronus> DD gave him the benefit of the doubt, but never trusted him [18:51] <Aislinn> yes, I think that giving someone a second chance is different from trusting someone [18:51] * poohbear has joined #lounge [18:51] <nympheart> I think perhaps if DD had given Tom a chance, Tom wouldn't have become the feared LV. Tom was crazy, yes, but he was a kid...I very much doubt that his personality was locked in [18:51] <bemused> Yes, Aislinn [18:51] <Aislinn> he was willing to have Tom earn his trust, but Tom never chose to do that [18:51] <MafaldaWeasley> I don't think he ever gave Tom a second change, he was always looking over Tom [18:52] <Aislinn> I think he did give him a chance [18:52] <MafaldaWeasley> chance [18:52] <nympheart> I agree Mafalda [18:52] <ProngsPatronus> I think he gave him seven years of second chances [18:52] <Joyhawk2121> i dont think he gave him a second chance either [18:52] <SoonerGryffindor> Okay, I was not going to bring up the greasy one, but since he has been I will.... I think that DD's trust in Snape is not as misplaced as people think [18:52] <Expelliarmas> come on, after that revealing chat with Mrs. Cole (bunny in the rafters?!?) would you trust l'il Tom? [18:52] <Pleshette> I think DD was wise not to trust Tom, he could see from the beginning that Tom was different [18:52] <Aislinn> he gave Tom clear expectations, and watched for him to live up to those. Tom chose not to [18:52] <ltbrave23> i don't think so either sooner [18:52] <bemused> Yes - in having him at hogwarts without telling the other teachers what he knew - that was the chance [18:53] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> DD saw Tom's love for power, the selfishness, the love of hurting others.... those things are more of a motivating factor that leads to bad choices. There's a difference between making a bad choice, stealing impulsively to get what you want, or stealing to hurt someone and planning it and savoring it [18:53] <Aislinn> exactly, bemused! [18:53] <nympheart> we never saw DD actually do anything, just watch. DD can't change Tom if he doesn't try. [18:53] <Aislinn> He didn't turn anyone else against Tom [18:53] <MafaldaWeasley> I don't think so. I think he gave Draco a seocnd chance, he gave Snape a second chance, he gave Karkaroff a second chance. Tom Riddle , he was alays watching very closely [18:53] <MafaldaWeasley> Tom didn't choose anything. He's sick [18:53] <SoonerGryffindor> I dont think that was a matter of trust as much as it was a matter of respect [18:53] * poohbear has quit [Bye] [18:53] <Expelliarmas> and Tom would turn anyone against DD [18:53] <MafaldaWeasley> his family is all sick due the genetic [18:53] <Aislinn> we don't know exactly what he did or didn't do with him, nymph - knowing Dd, he treated him with the same care and respect he treats everyone with [18:53] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i don't know Sooner.... i respect a lot of people that i wouldn't trust my house plant with [18:54] <nympheart> But it was still apparent to Tom that DD wasn't fond of him [18:54] <Aislinn> He totally made his own choice, mafalda [18:54] <Expelliarmas> LOL, cisnfb [18:54] <Pleshette> DD was the only one that Tom couldn't manipulate [18:54] <SoonerGryffindor> no, I mean the reason he didnt tell all the teachers is because of his respect.. That's how DD rolls [18:54] <Aislinn> because he was guilty, nymph, and he knew that dd could see through him [18:54] <bemused> DD even treats his murderers with respect [18:54] <ProngsPatronus> I wouldn't trust my house plants to LV, chocolate! laugh [18:54] <Expelliarmas> he does, bemused! [18:54] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> hehe pp, i gotcha now, sooner [18:54] <Joyhawk2121> tom could not fool DD [18:54] <Aislinn> if he hadn't been guilty, he wouldn't have felt that way [18:54] <nympheart> my houseplants would probably be better off with LV [18:55] <Pleshette> lol nympheart [18:55] <MafaldaWeasley> yeah, one thing is to treat him okay, other thing is to trust him and see him as able to change [18:55] <MafaldaWeasley> hehe nymph [18:55] <Expelliarmas> Do you think Harry implicitly trusts people? Has he become less trusting as the series goes on? [18:55] <Expelliarmas> I don't think Harry trusts very many people; he is another one who is willing to be proven wrong [18:55] <futureweasley> I do think that Harry has become more jaded as the series goes on...and with good reason [18:55] <bemused> I don't think he does [18:56] <Pleshette> No, but I think his trust in DD was shaken in OotP [18:56] <nympheart> He started to question people in HBP, but I wouldn't say he doesn't trust [18:56] <MafaldaWeasley> I agree expie [18:56] <bemused> His upbringing wouldn't encourage trust [18:56] <Joyhawk2121> less trusting I think [18:56] <Aislinn> I think he judges people on their actions [18:56] <MafaldaWeasley> I don't think he trust others than DD, Sirius, Hermione and Ron [18:56] <ProngsPatronus> I think he was desperate to trust in someone--hee trusts Hagrid right off [18:56] <MafaldaWeasley> and Hagrid [18:56] <futureweasley> I think it's amazing that he's not more cynical than he is...lord knows he could be the most guarded and untrusting person there is [18:56] * animaguscow has quit [Bye] [18:56] <MafaldaWeasley> I forgot about him [18:56] <SoonerGryffindor> I think that there is no way someone could be that trustful of a person growing up with the Dursleys [18:56] <ProngsPatronus> however, most adults get a pass from Harry [18:56] <Aislinn> true, future [18:57] <Punky> Agreed Future, I think that's one of his strong points [18:57] <Aislinn> he was unsure about Slughorn, prongs [18:57] * animaguscow has joined #lounge [18:57] <bemused> I don't think he always trusts DD even - not enough to do as he's told, anyway [18:57] <futureweasley> the total mind bender for Harry should have been the BCJ/Moody incident [18:57] <Aislinn> and fake Moody at first [18:57] <futureweasley> IMO [18:57] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> when harry does trust someone, he is EXTREMELY trusting... like the Half-Blood Prince and Mad-Eye [18:57] <ProngsPatronus> no--I mean that most adults don't even get in the door with Harry [18:57] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i agree future [18:57] <SoonerGryffindor> Harry trusts more than his upbringing allows, but I do not think that he is extemely trusting unless it is with his best friends [18:58] <Expelliarmas> Harry didn't take the book siriusly, though, cinfb [18:58] <Aislinn> I think he trusts most of his teachers, and trusted Lupin [18:58] <Aislinn> the adults he hasn't trusted have been with good reason [18:58] <Joyhawk2121> I think harry trusted fudge at some point but not since he turned against DD [18:58] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> didn't he? he defended it, and relied on it to give him guidance... that's trust if i've ever seen it [18:58] <SoonerGryffindor> I really don't think that Harry trusted Fudge as much as he tolerated him [18:58] <futureweasley> he managed to perservere...which he does whenever adversity comes his way. He manages to dig for trust in places where trust ought not live...and likely doesn't live in those with lesser character and heart [18:58] <Expelliarmas> I don't think Harry trusted Fudge all that much; he was suspicious as to Fudge's motives in PoA and didn't think much of him for sending Hagrid to Azkaban [18:59] <Aislinn> yes, sooner, I'd agree with that [18:59] <SoonerGryffindor> he knew even at the start of PoA that something was up [18:59] <nympheart> Harry trusted both the Prince and diary-Tom [18:59] <Aislinn> He knew that Fudge was treating him inconsistently when he was let off for blowing up his aunt [18:59] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> he questioned diary-tom though... but not before questioning hagrid... [18:59] <bemused> Trust doesn't really mean anything until you have to act on it [18:59] <SoonerGryffindor> right, so he has pretty much learned from the start not to trust the MoM [18:59] <Aislinn> and again, with very good reason [18:59] <bemused> When Harry does, I think he's always inclined to question [18:59] <SoonerGryffindor> right [19:00] <nympheart> He thought Tom made a mistake, he didn't distrust him until after he revealed himself as LV [19:00] <Aislinn> they are not a trustworthy bunch [19:00] * ProngsPatronus left #lounge [] [19:00] <Aislinn> but he trusts Molly and Arthur [19:00] <Expelliarmas> just because you question someone, does not mean you don't trust them [19:00] <Expelliarmas> What do you think of Dumbledore's willingness to trust Harry? [19:00] <bemused> No, Expie, that's true [19:00] <Aislinn> questioning is being open and realistice, in my view [19:00] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> really expelliarmas? if my parents started asking a bunch of questions about where i was and who i was with, i'd consider that they didn't trust me... [19:00] <nympheart> it's about time [19:01] <Expelliarmas> you might also consider they worry for you as well, cinfb [19:01] <SoonerGryffindor> I htink that it is quite tellng [19:01] <Joyhawk2121> harry has made good choices and DD sees that [19:01] <Expelliarmas> Harry was given every opportunity to earn DD's trust and loyalty and Harry didn't miss a chance (unlike Tom) [19:01] <futureweasley> Harry proved over and over that he was worthy of the sort of trust DD wanted to bestow upon him...it was well earned [19:01] <MafaldaWeasley> i think DD tried Harry many times before totally trusting him [19:01] <Punky> It finally reflects his actions yes [19:01] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> eh, but they're worried that i'm making wrong decisions... which i want them to trust that i'm making good ones [19:01] <bemused> Sorry, everyone, must go - it's past midnight here and I can't think straight... [19:01] <SoonerGryffindor> I think it also speaks to their relationship. Dumbledore loves Harry and knows his heart. He knows that Harry will make the right instead of the easy choices [19:01] * bemused left #lounge [] [19:02] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> night bemused [19:02] <nympheart> agreed Mafalda, but I don't think DD ever totally trusted Harry [19:02] <Expelliarmas> night, bemused [19:02] <Joyhawk2121> I gree Sooner [19:02] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> he knows harry's motivations are more pure... he can trust harry because he knows that harry is selfless at heart [19:02] <Joyhawk2121> agree [19:02] * hrh7 has quit [Bye] [19:02] <Aislinn> yes, he has observed Harry(Just as he observed Tom) but Harry rose to the occasion [19:03] <Aislinn> he has truly earned DD's trust [19:03] <futureweasley> yes Aislinn...he has worked hard for it [19:03] <futureweasley> and proved himself worthy of it [19:03] <SoonerGryffindor> really when you think about it, Harry could have turned out just as awful as Tom, but Dumbledore seemed to know right from the start the goodness of Harry's soul [19:03] <Aislinn> but watched him [19:03] <Expelliarmas> DD let Harry prove himself and kept an eye on him [19:03] <SoonerGryffindor> even though there were times that Harry was not forthcoming with DD [19:03] <Pleshette> so true sooner [19:03] * hrh7 has joined #lounge [19:04] <Aislinn> and as he watched, he saw the very special person that Harry is [19:04] <ltbrave23> i think what harry saw in the mirror helped dd's trust, not many would have seen what harry saw [19:04] <Expelliarmas> DD didn't hold it against Harry that he was not as forthcoming as he might have been [19:04] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> Harry's also betrayed his trust a few times, too... flying the car, not getting the memory [19:04] <SoonerGryffindor> honestly, I think that by the end of Harry's second year, DD knew he would be able to trust Harry [19:04] <Aislinn> Dd can be quite private too - that is not indicative of being untrustworthy [19:04] <SoonerGryffindor> I dont hink that not getting the memory betrayed a trust [19:04] <futureweasley> it's funny, actually...we've talked about DD giving blind trust...but look at what Harry's had to do to earn it from him. Maybe he isn't as careless about who he trusts as he seems on the surface [19:05] <Aislinn> I don't think he is blind at all [19:05] <SoonerGryffindor> exactly my earlier point future [19:05] <Expelliarmas> Harry pretty much DD's trust after SS/PS [19:05] <ltbrave23> i don't think dd is a blind truster at all. i think that there was few that he completely trusted [19:05] *** SillyPutty has joined #lounge [19:05] <Expelliarmas> Harry seems to place great trust in McGonagall at points, but it has limits. Why do you think that is? [19:05] * futureweasley grumbes something about still not trusting Snape [19:05] <Aislinn> hi SillyPutty [19:05] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> haha guture [19:05] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> or [19:05] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> future [19:05] <SillyPutty> she is a bit of a distnat personality [19:06] <nympheart> He sees McGonagall as more human than idolized DD [19:06] <Expelliarmas> McG is not DD, she is not the one with the master plan This post has been edited by SoonerGryffindor: Mar 23 2007, 08:34 PM

SoonerGryffindor View Member Profile	Mar 23 2007, 08:37 PM Post #2
WeasleyCast's Hostess With The Mostest Posts: 6,606 Joined: 2:44am February 20, 2006 Location: At The Burrow taking cooking lessons from Molly	[19:06] <Aislinn> I think Harry completely trusts McGonagall, but that is not the same as feeling that he can confide in her or expect her to cut him any slack [19:06] <SoonerGryffindor> hey SillyPutty [19:06] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i agree, aislinn [19:06] <SillyPutty> hey sooner... [19:06] <futureweasley> I don't think he has as much trust in her, as she hasn't been the "ultimate authority". Whenever Harry had questions, there was still another level he could go to [19:06] *** hrh7 has quit [Bye] [19:06] <SillyPutty> exactly... [19:06] <Aislinn> I think he trusts her as a fair and impartial professor, as an authority figure [19:07] <Joyhawk2121> I think he looks at her as a professor and nothing more [19:07] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> well, i trust my friends... i'll go to some with advice because they're easier to talk to [19:07] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> and not others [19:07] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> not because i don't trust them, but because i don't connect with them in the same way [19:07] <Expelliarmas> and yet, McG has gone to bat for Harry on more than one occassion [19:07] <SoonerGryffindor> I think there is a difference between trust and willingness to share informatin. Its not that Harry doesnt trust her, but he knows well how she will react to a situation. And her reactin is what is undesirable [19:07] <Aislinn> yes, sooner, exactly [19:07] <Punky> Right, Mcgonagall's influence has been different with harry and their relationship reflects that [19:07] <Joyhawk2121> defending a student and a quditch player [19:08] <futureweasley> now I don't think I agree totally, Joy. I think that Harry knows that McG would step up to the plate for him...I think they have a mentor-ish relationship...but McG has never opened up to Harry as DD did [19:08] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> pops drink #2 [19:08] <SoonerGryffindor> I think that when it comes to trust, Harry trusts Minerva as much as anyone [19:08] <Expelliarmas> McG is a teacher and head of house; DD was the head of the Order and the last fight with LV [19:08] <Joyhawk2121> true Future [19:08] <SoonerGryffindor> but I do not think that there is any way he will be willing to tell her his mission because of how he fears she will react to it [19:08] <SoonerGryffindor> and what she will to in the name of helping him [19:08] * chocolateisnotforbreakfast has quit [Bye] [19:08] * chocolateisnotforbreakfast has joined #lounge [19:09] <Expelliarmas> In the early novels of the series, do you think Dumbledore trusted Harry to make the right decisions, or was it simply a means of testing him? [19:09] <nympheart> I think part of it might be Harry is more willing to confide in someone of his own gender [19:09] <Pleshette> I wonder if that will change in Book 7 now that she is headmistress [19:09] <Aislinn> I think it was a combination of both [19:09] <SoonerGryffindor> both [19:09] <futureweasley> testing = teaching to DD [19:09] <Joyhawk2121> testing [19:09] <Expelliarmas> DD was more concerned with giving Harry (and really the Trio) combat training [19:09] <animaguscow> a little of both [19:09] <Aislinn> much like parents - teach the kids to make right choices, trust that they will, but watch to see that they do smile [19:09] <SillyPutty> i agree with whatever sooner and future say... tongue [19:09] <Expelliarmas> real world successes against LV are very important [19:09] <SoonerGryffindor> DD had the advantage of knowing Harry's fate [19:09] <Pleshette> I agree Aislinn [19:09] <SoonerGryffindor> lol SillyPutty [19:09] <futureweasley> lol SillyPutty [19:09] <SillyPutty> true sooner... [19:09] <Pleshette> lol [19:10] <Expelliarmas> ohhh, SillyPutty not that! [19:10] <nympheart> I think DD was watching to see what decisions Harry made on his own [19:10] <SillyPutty> I am working so I keep missing everything [19:10] <SoonerGryffindor> he knew that he had to teach him [19:10] <Punky> DD is always trying to teach [19:10] <SillyPutty> exactly... McG didn't [19:10] <SillyPutty> she is unaware of his "destiny: [19:10] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> dd was totally watching harry in the Mirror of Erised scene... what better way to see what Harry's motivations are than to spy on him there? smile [19:10] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> or... observe, not spy [19:10] <futureweasley> there is really no flexibility in McG's lessons...no room for error. DD gave the kind of lessons you can really apply and own [19:11] <ltbrave23> exactly, he saw the harry's deepest desire [19:11] <ltbrave23> the harry lol [19:11] <nympheart> I'd say spy, that's a private experience [19:11] <Expelliarmas> oh, I wouldn't be so harsh where McG is concerned. She didn't expect perfection [19:11] *** TxHighlife has quit [Bye] [19:11] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> when he saw that harry was obsessed with his family, he stepped in for instruction... family was good, but not obsessionworthy, and he pointed harry in the right direction [19:12] <futureweasley> I'm not being harsh...her lessons (her functionality) really is more rigid [19:12] <Pleshette> I think she was truly concerned but may not have known how to express that and stay professional [19:12] <Expelliarmas> he did give Harry corrective instruction as needed [19:12] <SillyPutty> it is future... [19:12] <SillyPutty> she is more by the book - how i envsion Hermione [19:12] <futureweasley> it's part of the relationship...it is important...it is disciplined [19:12] <Pleshette> yes [19:12] <Expelliarmas> and yet, she got Harry on the Quidditch team first year [19:12] <Expelliarmas> and defended him to Umbridge [19:12] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> exactly expie! [19:13] <Pleshette> mmhmm [19:13] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i love McG... she's just a strict personality [19:13] <futureweasley> I'm not undermining or discrediting those things [19:13] <ltbrave23> well anything to rile umbridge [19:13] <Expelliarmas> McG is a tough old bird and intensely loyal to her peeps [19:13] <nympheart> she's velvet wrapped in steel [19:13] <Joyhawk2121> true Expie [19:13] <nympheart> lol, expie [19:13] <futureweasley> all I'm saying is that her lessons are different lessons...less about application and more about theory [19:13] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> hugs anyone who instructs peeves how to undo a chandeleer [19:13] <Pleshette> I don't think she likes to show favoritism even though she feels a connection to Harry [19:14] <Aislinn> yes, future - I agree [19:14] <Expelliarmas> exactly, Pleshette [19:14] <nympheart> lol, choco, I think that was the best line in the whole series [19:14] <Joyhawk2121> she shows favoritism to hermonie [19:14] * Shard has quit [Bye] [19:14] <futureweasley> does she, Joy? [19:14] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> but hermione fits well in her personality of rules and knowledge [19:14] <Expelliarmas> she can't show favoritsm unlike a certain greaseball [19:14] <nympheart> I think she sees Hermione as her younger self, and that's why [19:14] * Punky has quit [Bye] [19:14] <Joyhawk2121> the timeturner [19:14] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> hermione earned that trust, though [19:14] <futureweasley> I don't think that was about favoritism [19:14] <ltbrave23> i don't think hermione was the only student to ever have a timeturner [19:15] <Expelliarmas> that's more McG playing a similar role to Hermione as DD did with Harry [19:15] <Pleshette> They are very much alike I think nympheart [19:15] <nympheart> McG does tend to smile more at Hermione [19:15] <Expelliarmas> Voldemort seems to trust no one. Is this the result of his life experiences? Perhaps because no one ever trusted him? [19:15] <futureweasley> I think the timeturner was out of necessity for a overachieving and highly potential student [19:15] <Expelliarmas> No, it's the result of him being a psychopath [19:15] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i think people trust him, but he doesn't trust anyone... his own mother didn't think him worthy enough to live for [19:15] <Pleshette> Definitely. He has had nobody to rely on. No one who truly cared about him [19:15] <Joyhawk2121> hehe Expie [19:15] <SillyPutty> he thinks he is better then everyone [19:15] <Expelliarmas> If you hanged my bunny from the rafters, I wouldn't trust you very much either [19:15] <SillyPutty> why trust them... [19:16] * Punky has joined #lounge [19:16] <SillyPutty> when he can do everything [19:16] <Pleshette> heh heh yeah that too expie [19:16] <SoonerGryffindor> I think Tom was just born that way, as much as I hate to say it [19:16] <nympheart> LV never connected with other people, partly because of the envoirment and partly because of insanity [19:16] <futureweasley> you get what you give... [19:16] <ltbrave23> but he gives the deenough to think that he trusts them [19:16] <MafaldaWeasley> hehe expie [19:16] * NYBookworm has quit [Bye] [19:16] <Aislinn> he had separation disorder from the time he was a baby [19:16] <SoonerGryffindor> yes [19:16] <Aislinn> Mrs. Cole said that he didn't cry like other babies [19:16] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> he'll trust that people will do things, though... he entrusts a portion of his soul to Lucius Malfoy [19:16] <Joyhawk2121> I agree Aislinn [19:16] <ltbrave23> like bellatrix, she thought lv trusted her once [19:16] <SillyPutty> he needs therapy... [19:16] <MafaldaWeasley> I agree sooner. I think he's a sick person [19:16] <Expelliarmas> he's a psychopath, for pete's sake--he doesn't connect on a human level [19:16] <SillyPutty> badly [19:16] <SoonerGryffindor> from the time he was a little baby, he had trust ssues [19:17] <Joyhawk2121> he is not normal thats for sure [19:17] <SillyPutty> he mistakenly trusted lucious with his diary... [19:17] <Expelliarmas> he never told Lucius what the diary was about, choc; that's not trust [19:17] <SillyPutty> and look what that got him [19:17] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> but he still trusted, sillyputty [19:17] <SillyPutty> true... [19:17] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> and he trusted that harry would go after sirius [19:17] <SoonerGryffindor> I honestly do think that his lack of trust is going to be his ultimate undoing [19:17] <Expelliarmas> he gave the diary to lucius for future use; as an ace-in-the-hole [19:17] <Punky> Yes I agree Sooner [19:17] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> he trusts that snape is working for him (well, he acts like it at least) [19:17] <SillyPutty> yep... [19:17] <ltbrave23> he didn't trust he knew harry would go after sirius [19:17] * futureweasley did not use the diary, I swear [19:17] <Expelliarmas> but he never revealed what the diary's significance really was [19:18] <SillyPutty> lol! [19:18] *** NYBookworm has joined #lounge [19:18] <SillyPutty> true expelliarmas [19:18] <Expelliarmas> "for future use" not for "future's use" [19:18] <Aislinn> I don't think he trusts anyone except maybe Nagini [19:18] <SoonerGryffindor> I do not think for a moment that he actually trusts his DE's. He does however trust in his ability to keep them sufficiently cowed [19:18] <Expelliarmas> and even the snake he keeps close at hand [19:18] <nympheart> and Nagini is not human and may contain part of himself [19:18] <ltbrave23> trusting that certain things will play out is different from trusting people [19:18] <Expelliarmas> or manipulated, Sooner [19:19] <SillyPutty> because he is a psychopath... [19:19] <SoonerGryffindor> exactly Expie, that as well [19:19] <SillyPutty> he thinks he can control everything... [19:19] <Expelliarmas> if he trusted in people, he wouldn't have split his soul into so many pieces [19:19] <SillyPutty> once again - therapy my good sir [19:19] <SoonerGryffindor> lol [19:19] <SillyPutty> all the DEs need to go on a corporate retreat [19:19] * Expelliarmas thinks LV would kill any therapist who suggested he might be a nut [19:19] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i think you guys are replacing the word trust with rely... he doesn't rely on other people... he's independent, but he does trust people to do things... he trusts some people to do certain tasks, because he's figured out their fears and have motivated them through their fear to do what he wants. he trusts that they will obey him because if they don't they'll be punished [19:19] <SillyPutty> lol [19:19] <SillyPutty> oh..... [19:19] <SillyPutty> never thought of it that way [19:20] <SoonerGryffindor> yes, but is that really trust chocolate? [19:20] <ltbrave23> that's not trust though choc [19:20] <Expelliarmas> that's not trust, choc, that's manipulation and intimidation [19:20] <ltbrave23> exactly expie [19:20] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> by definition it is... he's expecting them to do something... he expecting them to make a decision that he predicts they will [19:20] <Expelliarmas> On what do you think loyalty is based? Why are people loyal to someone or something? [19:20] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> it's not the virtuous kind of trust [19:20] <SillyPutty> fear or love [19:21] <SoonerGryffindor> I think that you need some kind of common ground for loyalty [19:21] <futureweasley> prongs said it earlier...security [19:21] <Joyhawk2121> love and respect [19:21] *** cloudpic has joined #lounge [19:21] <Aislinn> this gets back to the definition we talked about early on, chocolate - trust involves vulnerability, nad he will not make himself vulnerable to anyone [19:21] <Punky> Both are strong motivators Sillyputty [19:21] <futureweasley> hi cp [19:21] <cloudpic> Good evening [19:21] <SoonerGryffindor> hey cp [19:21] <Aislinn> hi cloudpic [19:21] <SillyPutty> i don;'t think all loyaltly is based on security [19:21] <nympheart> yes, SillyPutty, and I think ambition too [19:21] <SillyPutty> I am loyal to all my friends... but none of them gives me a sense of security [19:21] <SillyPutty> that I can think of\ [19:22] <Punky> Yes, what does a person have to gain [19:22] <SoonerGryffindor> I do thik that having the same goal is a component to loyalty [19:22] <SillyPutty> but a lot of people are loyal based on what they can get from a person... [19:22] <SillyPutty> it can be sooner... [19:22] <futureweasley> I know that i couldn't be loyal to anybody or anything I didn't feel comfortable with on some level [19:22] <SillyPutty> but security can be a motivator... [19:22] <SoonerGryffindor> exctly future [19:23] <SillyPutty> oh, you mean feeling secure in your relatinoship? [19:23] <Aislinn> I think one can be loyal to a cause without being loyal to the people also involved in it [19:23] <Expelliarmas> loyalty is based on many components; which one is more important depends on the relationship [19:23] <ltbrave23> i agree [19:23] <futureweasley> punky, you think that people are loyal for what they can get out of it? [19:23] <Aislinn> As Prongs said earlier - being loyal to the country, but not trusting the government [19:23] <nympheart> true Aislinn [19:23] <Punky> I think sometimes Future, people are loyal for selfish motives [19:23] * SillyPutty is getting confused [19:24] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i just think of dogs... they're sometimes loyal to their master even when they're abused... it's in the nature for a dog to have a "pack leader" and to be loyal to the leader, even when the leader makes bad decisions. maybe it's in certain people's natures to be loyal? [19:24] <futureweasley> is that, in essence, true loyalty? [19:24] <ltbrave23> but sticking around till you get what you want is not loyalty at least not true loyalty [19:24] <nympheart> motivated by fear, choco [19:24] <Joyhawk2121> Loyalty is also based on friendships like a bond between friends [19:25] <Expelliarmas> that's the DE brand of loyalty--each one is loyal b/c they think s/he will become LV's favorite [19:25] <futureweasley> ooh, pizza's here...brb [19:25] <SoonerGryffindor> lol [19:25] * Expelliarmas will be quite ticked if future doesn't share [19:25] <Punky> Exactly, they are still loyal, even if it's not always ethical [19:25] *** MafaldaWeasley left #lounge [] [19:25] <Expelliarmas> I agree there are various shades of loyalty [19:25] <Expelliarmas> how shady depends on the relationship [19:26] <Expelliarmas> look at Mundungus and Dumbledore [19:26] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> loyalty isn't always a virtuous trait, just like trust... it can be twisted and manipulated... there can't be "true loyalty" just like there can't be "true love"... everything is conditional. just because it's not 100% "pure" loyalty doesn't mean it's not strong, or real [19:26] <SoonerGryffindor> Exoie you read my mind [19:26] * Expelliarmas begins to worry [19:26] <Expelliarmas> Loyalty is a trait usually associated with the good and noble House of Hufflepuff. Can loyalty be taken to an extreme, though? [19:27] <SoonerGryffindor> I think that Bella is 100% loyal. I also think that she is 100% derranged [19:27] <Expelliarmas> I associate that trait with Gryffindor as well [19:27] <cloudpic> Is extreme intended as a negative here? [19:27] <SillyPutty> yes... [19:27] <Aislinn> I think that it can be, if the loyalty is not accompanied with rationality [19:27] <Expelliarmas> it can be [19:27] <SillyPutty> anything can be taken tot he extreme... [19:27] <nympheart> I think Bella is a good example of extreme loyalty [19:27] <NYBookworm> like Bella toward LV [19:28] <SoonerGryffindor> blind loyalty is not desirable. There should be room to question [19:28] <NYBookworm> oops I'm too slow [19:28] <SillyPutty> hence the term - extremist [19:28] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> Bella is like the abused dog kind of loyalty [19:28] <SoonerGryffindor> Bella is an example of fanatical loyalty [19:28] <Expelliarmas> except that Bella chooses to be blind [19:28] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> she suffers in prison, comes back, and is still not trusted [19:28] <nympheart> I think she's more like the dog with food continually in front of her nose just out of reach [19:29] <Aislinn> BCJ is another example of that type of loyalty [19:29] * cloudpic has quit [Bye] [19:29] * cloudpic has joined #lounge [19:29] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> BCJ is an example of Voldemort trusting in someone, too... BCJ was motivated by hopes of a reward, not by fear or intimidation [19:29] <Aislinn> what about the House elves' loyalty, like Winky's [19:29] <nympheart> is anyone extremely loyal to DD? [19:29] <SillyPutty> other then Harry? [19:30] <futureweasley> BCJ = Barty Crouch Jr [19:30] <SillyPutty> I think the order... [19:30] <Expelliarmas> we'll get to the house-elves ... [19:30] <SillyPutty> maybe or maybe not including snape [19:30] <cloudpic> If extreme is a bad thing, then it wouldn't follow that Harry is extremely loyal, would it? [19:30] <Pleshette> thats what I was thinking too Aislinn [19:30] <Expelliarmas> Is loyalty connected to ancient magic? What about Harry being able to summon Fawkes in CoS? [19:30] <SillyPutty> oh... brain ain't working... [19:30] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> ohhh good question! [19:30] <nympheart> I think it's connected with Love [19:30] *** phoenix42 has joined #lounge [19:31] <Aislinn> I agree, nymph [19:31] <SillyPutty> extreme isn't always bad... [19:31] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> but loyalty isn't love [19:31] <SoonerGryffindor> that is good, but I think it is becuase of how unique Fawkes is as well [19:31] <nympheart> It's part of Love [19:31] <SillyPutty> look at love - there is a hard true love... and then there is obessive love [19:31] <Punky> but it could be love [19:31] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> he "called" fawkes with his loyalty to dumbledore [19:31] <Aislinn> While Dd spoke of loyalty, what Harry exhibited was a faith in Dumbledore, and that is based in Love [19:31] * SillyPutty is going home after a long day of too many hours at work... [19:32] <SillyPutty> bye everyone [19:32] <Aislinn> bye SillyPutty [19:32] <SillyPutty> thanks for the chat! [19:32] <Joyhawk2121> bye [19:32] *** SillyPutty has quit [Bye] [19:32] <Expelliarmas> That example of loyalty in CoS is what called fawkes [19:32] <SoonerGryffindor> bye Silly Putty [19:32] <futureweasley> I have to say, the line that has something to the effect of "Dumbledore will remain as long as there are those who are loyal to him" really sticks out here. What does that mean, and how on Earth can that be true? [19:32] <futureweasley> maybe it does have to do with Ancient Magic... [19:32] <Aislinn> by being loyal to him, his principles live on in there actions, and yes, I agree that it ties into the Ancient magic [19:33] <Aislinn> their [19:33] <futureweasley> but how does that work? Charm a magical creature to know when someone is surging against the DD Unified Front? [19:33] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> hehe future [19:33] <Aislinn> lol, future [19:33] <phoenix42> I think it means that Dd will always be available in some form to help those who need him. I think people can think back about what he has said and done that can help in the future. [19:33] <Aislinn> I think it's more about choices, as so much in the series is [19:34] <Expelliarmas> it might be something of the inherent nature of a phoenix to respond to loyalty to its owner [19:34] <nympheart> Love of mankind connects people, as long as you share Love with another person, you're never alone and Fawkes stands in for DD [19:34] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> what if two people are being loyal at once? (imagines a splinched Fawkes) [19:34] ltbrave23 has quit [Bye] [19:35] <futureweasley> hold on...do you really think that Dumbledore owned Fawkes, or that they are mutually together? [19:35] <Expelliarmas> Dumbledore seems to be very touched and overcome by Harry's profession of loyalty in HBP. Did this surprise you? [19:35] <Aislinn> I think they were mutually together, future [19:35] <SoonerGryffindor> no [19:35] <nympheart> I don't think it's an actual pet ownership [19:35] <Punky> He's so humble, it really showed there [19:36] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> Dumbledore might not have expected loyalty... he might have expected Harry to be doing his orders, but only because Harry trusted him... but Harry took it to the next level with loyalty [19:36] <Expelliarmas> DD shouldn't have been surprised after CoS; but after what they went through at the end of OotP, I can see where he would be touched in HBP [19:36] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> not orders, but you know what i mean? [19:36] <Aislinn> no, it didn't surprise me - Dumbledore was a loving soul, and it makes sense that he would be touched by that [19:36] <Pleshette> No I think their relationship evolved to the point where Harry accepted DD's mistakes and still loved him as a mentor [19:36] <Aislinn> agreed, pleshette [19:37] <Expelliarmas> I think DD worried he did great harm to their relationship by keeping the Prophecy away from Harry for so long [19:37] <futureweasley> you said earlier, Aislinn, the DD is private. I agree, and think that's why I was a little taken aback [19:37] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> maybe Dumbledore thought Harry's... dangit Expelliarmas! [19:37] <phoenix42> In some ways I was surprised by this. It seems that Harry only was trusting to an extent. He seems hesitant to share information with Dd and so it always made me wonder. I know he was relying on how he thought hew was being treated. I just relistened to GOF and Harry didn't want to tell DD about his scar. That has happened throughout the books. [19:37] <Pleshette> yes expie [19:37] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> taking my thoughts [19:37] <SoonerGryffindor> I do thik that DD was shocked, though I was not [19:37] <Aislinn> but being private doesn't mean that he doesn't feel, future [19:37] <futureweasley> no, but being private does mean that it was shocking to see it on the page [19:38] <Punky> and it didn't last very long [19:38] <SoonerGryffindor> for the first time, Harry was proclaiming his love of Dumbledore to him directly, and that meant a great deal to him [19:38] <Expelliarmas> House-elves are bound to the house the serve. Is this loyalty, or a perversion of the concept? [19:38] <futureweasley> I expected his gratitude to be more on an internal thing that we'd be able to speculate about [19:38] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> loyalty based on duty [19:38] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> like armed forces [19:38] <nympheart> it's not real loyalty [19:38] <Aislinn> yes, sooner, and it showed the very close relationship that had grown between them [19:38] <SoonerGryffindor> perversion. We see true loytalty in the Dobby/Harry relationship [19:38] <nympheart> we've seen house-elves disobey [19:38] <Joyhawk2121> not real loyalty look at dobby [19:38] <SoonerGryffindor> and there is no magical bond there [19:38] <SoonerGryffindor> just a loyalty bond [19:38] <Expelliarmas> that's not loyalty; tjat's servitude [19:38] <Pleshette> It's loyalty with blinders on [19:39] <Aislinn> Winky seemed genuinely loyal to Crouch, despite the way she was treated [19:39] <Aislinn> I think she really cared about the Crouch family [19:39] <futureweasley> it's brainwashing [19:39] <Joyhawk2121> true Aislinn [19:39] <Expelliarmas> it's also a certain amount of brainwashing [19:39] <nympheart> Hemione would say that was because Winky's...future got it [19:39] <SoonerGryffindor> yes, but I do think that the magical bond with Winky did affect her [19:39] <Expelliarmas> or conditioning [19:39] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> it's not perfect loyalty, but it IS loyalty, definitely [19:39] <Aislinn> if it was just brainwashing, she would be coming out of it by now [19:39] <Pleshette> In the case of Kreacher I agree future [19:39] <SoonerGryffindor> seeing as Dobby actually went aganst his bonds to help Harry shows immense loyalty [19:39] * animaguscow has quit [Bye] [19:39] <nympheart> brainwashing can be pretty permenent [19:39] <futureweasley> houseelves have been taught and raised to do as they are told...not just by their masters, but by the generations of Houseelves before them [19:40] <Expelliarmas> no, Winky is still in her Butterbeer Anonymous group getting treatment; it could take forever [19:40] <phoenix42> Kreacher is only loyal to the point he is required to be. He skirts around issues if he can [19:40] * animaguscow has joined #lounge [19:40] <Aislinn> yes, it is a deeply ingrained value system with them future [19:40] <SoonerGryffindor> lol Expie [19:40] <Joyhawk2121> hehe Expie [19:40] <Pleshette> lol [19:40] <Aislinn> one that is completely different from our own [19:40] <futureweasley> however, I think loyalty can be taught...it can be put upon someone [19:41] <Expelliarmas> Kreacher has no respect for Harry and only obeys him because he must [19:41] <Aislinn> right [19:41] <phoenix42> I think loyalty can be taught but there needs to be mutual respect for it to have meaning [19:41] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> well, i think of the army or something... you take a vow to be loyal to whoever's above you, even if you don't like the colonel, even if you don't KNOW them, you know you'll be loyal to them. If they give you orders to do something that you wouldn't normally do, you do it anyway because that's loyalty. That's like house-elves. [19:41] <Aislinn> this was not true for winky -she kept her master's secrets, even after being dismissed [19:41] <Expelliarmas> He had no respect for Sirius and had no problem betraying Sirius [19:42] <phoenix42> The difference with the army is typically people choose to join. Kreacher had no choice in obeying Sirius or being given to Harry\ [19:42] <SoonerGryffindor> so in a way Kreache and Dobby were very much alike, they just support different sides [19:42] <nympheart> right expie, which means Harry needs to be careful [19:42] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> but you don't choose who's above you, or choose who you're going to be loyal to [19:42] <Expelliarmas> Does betrayal presuppose trust? Is betrayal worse than some other evil acts because it is a violation of trust? [19:42] <Aislinn> but Kreacher seems to have been quite loyal to Sirius's mother [19:42] * TxHighlife has joined #lounge [19:43] <Expelliarmas> he was loyal to a mad picture; Kreacher was quite a few sandwiches short of a picnic basket [19:43] <Aislinn> I think it does presuppose trust [19:43] <NYBookworm> yes, I think betrayl assumes you trusted the person in the first place. [19:43] <SoonerGryffindor> I have to say that I personally see betrayal as one of the worst violations ever [19:43] <nympheart> betrayal of true trust is a very evil act [19:43] *** cloudpic has quit [Bye] [19:43] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> yes - when you let someone know that you trust them, and they make a choice to defy that trust, they are actively doing something against you [19:43] <Expelliarmas> Peter's betrayal was unspeakably bad [19:44] <Aislinn> because trust is being vulnerable with someone, having that trust betrayed is more personally affecting - it can really cut someone deeply [19:44] <SoonerGryffindor> better to be honest about it. In a weird way, I respect Bella more than Peter because at least she never pretended [19:44] <phoenix42> I would have a hard time dealing with betrayal. Again, it comes to choices. You choose how to show your loyalty and how much you can show, if any at all. [19:44] <Joyhawk2121> with betrayal I dont think you could give a second chance [19:44] <Expelliarmas> he accepted the Fidelius [fidelity!] charm and became the secret keeper. A duty which was given to him based on trust. [19:44] <Punky> Definitely Sooner [19:44] <Expelliarmas> no, Bella is as she is [19:45] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> just like voldemort trusted Malfoy with the diary, and malfoy explicitly defied Voldemort... even though he didn't know the extent of what he was doing, he betrayed the dark lord's soul. Voldemort let himself be vulnerable by giving Malfoy the diary, and was betrayed... and that is part of the reason why he punished draco with the task to kill DD [19:45] <SoonerGryffindor> Only 15 minutes left, everyone! This has been a great chat! I want to remind you all that this transcript can be found at the Corner Booth Forum http://www.leakylounge.com/Corner-Booth-f184.html. [19:46] <Expelliarmas> Not every betrayal is a huge, dramatic act. Hermione turned in Harry for receiving a Firebolt from an anonymous source. Was this a betrayal? [19:46] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> turns the time-turner [19:46] <Expelliarmas> No! This was Hermione looking out for her friend. [19:46] <nympheart> since her goal was Harry's safety...no [19:46] <Aislinn> no, this was not a betrayal [19:46] <Joyhawk2121> no it wa out of concern [19:46] <Aislinn> she was not breaking a trust with him, she was trying to protect him [19:46] <SoonerGryffindor> I consider intent for it to be betrayal [19:46] <SoonerGryffindor> she had good inentions [19:46] <nympheart> I agree sooner [19:47] <Aislinn> she had not promised to keep the Firebolt a secret, or promised anything of any kind [19:47] <phoenix42> Sometimes you have to look at the greater good when making a choice [19:47] <futureweasley> puts on her Devil's Advocate hat I think it was a little bit of a betrayal [19:47] <Aislinn> in what way/ [19:47] <Expelliarmas> why, future? [19:47] <SoonerGryffindor> because she only had Harry's best interest at heart, her actions can be both understood and forgiven [19:47] <futureweasley> Hermione does not know everything...and I think her first loyalty should have been to her friendship, and not her need to be right [19:47] <TxHighlife> she never promised not to tell, her way of denying it was betrayl [19:48] <Expelliarmas> Harry was not willing to take the anonymous firebolt to McG for inspection even though he knew someone was after him [19:48] <Aislinn> I can understand Harry being upset, but there was no betrayal involved [19:48] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i agree with sooner... if a kid tells you they're being abused, and ask you not to tell anyone, you're technically breaking their trust by telling a policeman, but the intention is good, so i can see how that is not true betrayal [19:48] <Expelliarmas> She didn't do it to prove she was right! She did it to ensure his safety [19:48] <Aislinn> it wasn't about being right, it was about being safe [19:48] * NYBookworm has quit [Bye] [19:48] <phoenix42> The little betrayal with the firebolt is more of an unwritten agreement between friends. They aren't sure when to tell and when not to. So perhaps betrayal is based on the other person's interpretation. I think Harry felt betrayed by Hermoine [19:48] <SoonerGryffindor> I do think she did sneak a bit in how she initially did t, but that was only because she did not want a scene [19:48] <futureweasley> which do you think she would have taken more pride in: Harry's safety or being right? [19:48] <Expelliarmas> Hermione wouldn't have been able to live with herself if something happened to Harry because she was too weak to take the necessary steps [19:48] <Aislinn> chocolate-harry didn't ask her to do anything [19:49] <Aislinn> so how could she have betrayed something he never asked? [19:49] <Expelliarmas> Harry's safety [19:49] * NYBookworm has joined #lounge [19:49] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> haha i'm agreeing with you! in that she didn't betray him lol [19:49] <SoonerGryffindor> agree Expie [19:49] <Aislinn> safety absolutely [19:49] <Expelliarmas> Hermione isn't that shallow [19:49] <futureweasley> Imaybe there's some assumed loyalty there [19:49] <Expelliarmas> What do you consider the greatest act of betrayal in the series? Why? [19:49] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> you can still have a breakdown in trust without it being real betrayal [19:49] <SoonerGryffindor> Peter [19:49] <nympheart> Peter [19:49] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> snape [19:50] <Aislinn> I agree - Peter [19:50] <Pleshette> yep [19:50] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> nevermind [19:50] <futureweasley> Peter [19:50] <phoenix42> I would agree Peter [19:50] <futureweasley> lol [19:50] <TxHighlife> Peter [19:50] <Expelliarmas> Peter of the Potters--he was their secret keeper [19:50] <Punky> Yes, Peter [19:50] <animaguscow> Peter [19:50] <Joyhawk2121> Wormtail [19:50] <Joyhawk2121> Peter [19:50] <Aislinn> Snape remains to be seen [19:50] <Expelliarmas> a duty based on trust--and he deliberately betrayed it [19:50] <Aislinn> He may usurp that position [19:50] <futureweasley> 119 days [19:50] <futureweasley> we will know all [19:50] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> sob [19:50] <futureweasley> or most [19:50] <Expelliarmas> What motivated Peter Pettigrew's betrayal of the Potters? [19:50] <SoonerGryffindor> He went into the situation knowing ahead of time what he was going to do. What s amazing is that the charm even worked inthe forst place [19:50] <nympheart> fear [19:51] <futureweasley> being underestimated and overlooked [19:51] <NYBookworm> self protection [19:51] <Expelliarmas> a need for power and to prove himself superior to his friends [19:51] <Aislinn> self interest [19:51] <Punky> And it was so selfish, exactly [19:51] <nympheart> He was afraid of LV's power and yielded to it [19:51] <Joyhawk2121> yeah some power [19:51] <phoenix42> Power motivated him or hopes of being seen as someone important. he never had that in school. always seen as a follower. Peter was proving something to himself or someone [19:51] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> definitely fear, he said that Voldemort threatened him with death... he should have died rather than betray his friends [19:52] <phoenix42> It would be hard to choose to die over betraying friends. [19:52] <phoenix42> Many people are not strong enough [19:52] <TxHighlife> fear with self interest [19:52] * Expelliarmas thinks Peter lied about being threatened by LV [19:52] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> true, but by taking the vow to be a secret-keeper, one would think that he was accepting the fate to keep their secret to the death [19:53] <nympheart> really, expie? [19:53] <futureweasley> really expie? [19:53] <SoonerGryffindor> I have to say I disagree Expie [19:53] <futureweasley> I don't think it's much of a stretch to believe it... [19:53] <TxHighlife> to turn on his friends that easliy he had to want some of that power [19:53] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> yeah, he was a spy for liek, a year... he was jsut saying that he was threatened to defend himself [19:53] <SoonerGryffindor> I dont think Peter ever wanted power [19:53] <Expelliarmas> yes, I do. He said that to save his own skin. I don't think LV had to threaten Peter; he turned the Potters over willingly [19:53] <phoenix42> I think he was threatened but chose not do challenge that threat [19:53] <Aislinn> oh, I agree with Expie [19:53] <Expelliarmas> He went to LV willingly. There was no coercion. [19:54] <SoonerGryffindor> I cant envision anyone willingly going to LV [19:54] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i agree with expelliarmas... to the extreme [19:54] <Aislinn> Lucius did, sooner [19:54] <SoonerGryffindor> I htink Peter was trapped [19:54] <Expelliarmas> The DEs went to LV willingly, Sooner [19:54] <SoonerGryffindor> okay, I dont see Peter as going willingly [19:54] <TxHighlife> its possible, power hungry, and LV looked more powerful to Peter than his friends or the MoM [19:54] <nympheart> but they're decieved, expie [19:54] <SoonerGryffindor> he was too much of a coward [19:54] <Expelliarmas> Peter even returned to LV willingly--he didn't want to be punished by going to Azkaban [19:54] <phoenix42> Fear can do many odd things to people [19:54] <SoonerGryffindor> the DE's are a different story [19:54] <Expelliarmas> they are self-deceived, nymph, but they went willingly [19:54] <SoonerGryffindor> cause a lot of them have familial connections [19:54] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> fear might be a motivation... you join a gang so that they won't attack your family... you go willingly but not without motivation based in fear [19:55] <Expelliarmas> and still, it is a choice [19:55] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> not the same thing as coercion [19:55] <Expelliarmas> Peter was not coerced [19:55] <SoonerGryffindor> I think that Peter saw the mortality rate of the Order and did the math [19:55] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> "i didn't know he could count" [19:56] <SoonerGryffindor> lol [19:56] <phoenix42> gangs are rather interesting. there is some bond but often the bond is based on fear and what happens if you choose to try and get out. Remember you don't turn in your resignation to a gang or Voldemort [19:56] <Expelliarmas> Peter helped LV for about a year. He likely helped LV with picking off the Order members. [19:56] <Expelliarmas> Here's tonight's final question: If Snape's murder of Dumbledore really was a betrayal, what motivated him to do it? Did he struggle with the choice? [19:56] <SoonerGryffindor> I agree wth you Expie that he contributed to that [19:56] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> exactly phoenix!! i think that a violent gang and the DE's have a lot in common... if you don't join, you're up for attack [19:56] <phoenix42> Gangs bring a sense of belonging even if in a negative way. That is what voldemort and the deatheaters are [19:56] <SoonerGryffindor> I cannot answer this question [19:57] <nympheart> neither can I sooner [19:57] <Aislinn> I think that he had his own reasons for doing what he did [19:57] <Aislinn> and it could be that he saw it as the best course of action for his own, personal plans [19:57] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> if it was, he was motivated by wanting to help Draco and Narcissa more than wanting to keep Dumbledore alive [19:57] <phoenix42> I think there was a struggle but there is so much we don't know and why people continue to debate this [19:57] <Expelliarmas> We have 119 days to go for that answer [19:57] <SoonerGryffindor> lol [19:57] <Punky> I have to agree he had his own reasons but I think the look on his face shows he struggled with it [19:57] <Aislinn> well, killing someone is not easy, even or a greasy git [19:58] <Aislinn> for [19:58] <Expelliarmas> hmmm, I think the revulsion on his face was directed at loathing for DD [19:58] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> taking the vow shows that he was concerned for Draco's and Narcissa's saafety, perhaps even more than his concern for betraying Dumbledore [19:58] <Expelliarmas> no one said Snape enjoyed killing like LV does [19:58] <Aislinn> right expie [19:58] <Aislinn> he's not a psychopath [19:58] <Expelliarmas> no, taking the vow showed expediency on Snape's part [19:58] <SoonerGryffindor> okay, I really cannot fathom that Snape betrayed DD, but if he did it was to save his own skin [19:58] <phoenix42> I really want to believe DD knew something that was going on and want to believe his trust in snape was right and we find that out in 119 days [19:59] <SoonerGryffindor> becaue of the UV [19:59] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> just like dumbledore said, "killing is not as easy as the innocent believe" Snape showed that it wasn't easy [19:59] <Aislinn> right chocolate [19:59] <phoenix42> However Moody also told the students you had to mean it when you did the curse. [19:59] <Punky> That puts him in the same category as the links of Wormtail though Sooner, saving himself [19:59] TxHighlife has quit [Bye] [20:00] <Expelliarmas> well, this has been a great chat! Come on back for tomorrow's Reading Group chat! [20:00] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> nobody stole my color today! [20:00] <Expelliarmas> We're back from 1-3, eastern standard time [20:00] <futureweasley> I missed the last question...and I really wanted to answer it! [20:00] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> chaCHING [20:00] <phoenix42> my first chat of any kind. thanks for making it so easy to join in [20:00] <futureweasley> oh well...I'm sure my opinion is well documented elsewhere [20:00] <Expelliarmas> just call me future, I'll listen to your answer [20:00] <Aislinn> tell us quick future smile [20:00] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> you had great thoughts, phoenix! we enjoyed you coming! [20:00] <Expelliarmas> and disagree [20:01] <futureweasley> phoenix...we are so glad you made it [20:01] <SoonerGryffindor> Thanks so much guys! [20:01] <Aislinn> glad you joined us, phoenix42 [20:01] <futureweasley> goodnight all [20:01] * nympheart left #lounge [] [20:01] <Aislinn> thanks, everyone, for coming to the rescheduled chat! [20:01] * animaguscow left #lounge [] [20:01] <Joyhawk2121> thanks for the chat bye everyone [20:01] <phoenix42> so long [20:01] <SoonerGryffindor> thanks everyone for joining us tonight seeing as we had technical issues Wednesday [20:01] <Expelliarmas> come on back tomorrow, Phoenix [20:01] <futureweasley> bye Joy [20:01] * Joyhawk2121 left #lounge [] [20:01] <phoenix42> I might just do that [20:01] * phoenix42 has quit [Bye] [20:01] <Expelliarmas> do [20:01] <NYBookworm> bye [20:01] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> bye phoeni.... oh [20:02] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> bye everyone! [20:02] <Punky> Gnight! [20:02] <Aislinn> bye nyb [20:02] * NYBookworm has quit [Bye] [20:02] <Expelliarmas> bye choc [20:02] <Aislinn> night all! [20:02] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> have a great weekend [20:02] <futureweasley> hasta la pasta people...see you tomorrow [20:02] * chocolateisnotforbreakfast has quit [Bye] [20:02] <SoonerGryffindor> hasta la pasta? [20:02] * Punky has quit [Bye] [20:02] <Expelliarmas> lol [20:02] <futureweasley> that's right [20:02] <Expelliarmas> spanish and italian [20:02] <SoonerGryffindor> hahahahahahahah [20:03] <futureweasley> it's a cross culture thing [20:03] <Expelliarmas> actually pasta in spanish is paste -------------------- This Episode is so big, we needed Hermione's beaded bag WeasleyCast.Com

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