Walpurgis and Teutonic Knights and the DE's, JKR's use of teutonic symbolism |
 Oct 22 2005, 02:52 PM
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Fortescue's Spoon Polisher  Posts: 3,539 Joined: 1:29pm March 16, 2005   |
Arianhod, your wish is my command
JKR has said in an interview that she originally thought of naming the Death Eaters "The Knights of Walpurgis". I believe that she based these knights on the Teutonic Knights. It is a fact that Hitler based his SS on the Teutonic Knights and even took their symbol, a black cross on a white background as its symbol. From Wickapedia : QUOTE In 1410 at the Battle of Grunwald (also known as the battle of Tannenberg), a Polish-Lithuanian army decisively defeated the Order and broke its military power. We see many teutonic symbols throughout the books , here are a few Eyes Odin gave up an eye at the Spring of Mimir in order to gain wisdom. The eye of Wotan was called "the star of the skull" because in the Teutonic myth of creation the skull of the giant Ymir became the world of man. Also, Teutonic culture said that the hero's courage and glory were exposed through the glory in his eyes (Cord, III:1, 122; Crossley-Holland, 15). Harry has his mothers eyes. Could the importance of this lie in the fact that he has his mother's courage? Wolf "The wolf is one of the more significant animals in the myths of the early Teutonic people. It was an animal that had certain modes and manners of life that made it both to be feared and to be honored, worshipped, perhaps, somewhat as an ominous specter, and always held in awe as well as respect. The wolf was also an animal that was mythically associated primarily with the gods, but one that had a special relationship with the King of the Gods, Odin" (Cord, III:2, 527). In the myths, the wolf Fenrir is said to be "bound with the fetter Gleipnir, made out of the sound caused by the footfall of cats, the beards of women, the roots of mountains, the sinews of bears, the breath of fish, and the spittle of birds. When this chain breaks, the wolf will be released and this is the sign of the end to come" at Ragnarok (Chantepie de la Saussaye, 246). Werewolf anyone? -------------------- |
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Oct 23 2005, 12:06 AM
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Eeylops Owl Cage Cleaner Posts: 249 Joined: 10:51am August 2, 2005 Location: Snuggled inside a warm Klein bottle in the redwood forest |
The Teutonic Knights make a wonderfully stylized and menacing appearance in the late 1930's film Alelxander Nevsky, by the Russian director Eisenstein.
That said, it may be possible to over-rate the Teutonic Knights as a factor in the Knights of Walpurgis. There is a very Rowling-esque pun here. Walpurgis Night is a traditional Spring holiday going back to pre-Christian times. A central feature of Walpurgis Night is that witches with broomsticks fly to the top of a peak (Brocken) in the Harz Mountains, and sweep away the last snow on the night before May Day so that Spring can get properly under way. cheers, DeGustibus "It's Spring, it's Spring; the bird is on the wing." "Don't be absoid; da wing is on da boid." edited for spelling, added name of Brocken -------------------- An optimist believes we live in the best of all possible worlds.
A pessimist fears this may be true. Boy was my potion-was-a-horcrux theory wrong! |
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Oct 23 2005, 03:13 PM
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Founders Groupie  Posts: 1,753 Joined: 8:52pm July 21, 2005 Location: Eating the Holy Grain and watching life return to the Forbidden Forest  |
Here is a little more about Walpurgis Night---and there are some very interesting correlations. The source can be found here: (all bold designations are mine)
About Walpurga herself... "There actually was a christian nun, later a saint, named Walburga who lived during the 8th century in Germany. The cloister which she ran as abbess was built in 760 and called "Heidenheimer Kloster," namely "Heathen-home Cloister!" It was named after the town where it was located in middle Frankenland, which in turn was named after a "holy spring," Heidenbrunnen, where Heathens had been baptised. (No doubt, the spring was holy long before it was put to such misuse!) Nothing noteworthy during her lifetime, nor her birth or death-dates, caused any association between St. Walburga and Walpurgisnacht. What supposedly brought about the association of her with that date was that after her death, a miracle-working liquid or oil began to flow from the tombstone placed over her remains, which caused healings and was the reason for her canonization as a saint, both occurring on the first of May." "In Bavaria there is a very old Walburga's chapel that is said to be located on the site of an older Heathen temple. The chapel stands on its own hill, surrounded by linden trees. Hills--especially hills standing alone--are in Germany traditionally the dwelling places of Holda and other Heathen holy female beings later seen as witches. Linden trees have always been holy to Frigga. Place-names and chapels stemming from Walburga (many associated with linden trees, hills, and holy wells) litter the landscape in Bavaria, Austria, and other germanic homelands. "The greatest number of the oldest churches in lower Germany are dedicated to this same saint." (Rochholz, p.17). "Lower Germany" includes what are now the Netherlands, Belgium, Saxony, and other regions of northern Germany--all regions where formerly the goddess Nehalennia was widely worshipped." A bit about the symbols associated with Walburga: "Walburga's symbols, as shown in the oldest stonecarvings in her chapels, are a dog and a bundle of grain. There is nothing in the abbess Walburga's biographies to account for portraying her with a dog, but there is much to show that German goddesses were associated with the dog as their "Hilfstier" (helping animal). "Grey hounds accompany the three Norns. The fertility goddesses Frau Harke, Frau Gode, and Frau Frick (Frigga) have always a hound beside them, and...Frau Berchte in Steiermark is called the "poodle-mother" because of her dog" (Rochholz p. 20). The goddess Nehalennia is usually pictured with a dog on her altars and votive sites. Speaking Walburga's name is a charm to tame fierce or even mad dogs." "Nine nights before the first of May is Walburga in flight, unceasingly chased by wild ghosts and seeking a hiding place from village to village. People leave their windows open so she can be safe behind the cross-shaped windowpane struts from her roaring enemies. For this, she lays a little gold piece on the windowsill, and flees further. A farmer who saw her on her flight through the woods described her as a white lady with long flowing hair, a crown upon her head; her shoes were fiery gold, and in her hands she carried a three-cornered mirror that showed all the future, and a spindle, as does Berchta." There is also this, which should further warm the cockles of every Runemaster/mistress and Arithmancer: "The description of Walburga's adventures bears strong similarity to the harrying of the moss-wives or wood-wives by the Wild Hunt which usually occurs in the autumn and winter. Woodcutters are supposed to mark three crosses in the shape of a triangle, on the stumps of trees they have felled. Inside the triangle (another "magic" triangle) is the only place the moss-wives and woodwives are safe from being torn to pieces by the Wild Hunt. (See Grimm v. III, p. 929) Of course in tales which mention this, the safety of the moss-wives is attributed to the crosses. Considering the Heathen nature of these spirits, however, it is tempting to envision the crosses, set in a triangular pattern, either as a triple Nauthiz rune protecting them in their need, or as a degraded form of a Valknut or a trefot, other Heathen signs of power." Other symbols of note: "Of Walburga's symbols or attributes, the bundle of grain is obviously a fertility symbol and is typical of the germanic matron goddesses or demi-goddesses once worshipped all over Europe, including Nehalennia, as well as a being a symbol of goddesses in other Indo-European pantheons, such as Demeter and Ceres. The three-cornered mirror seems clearly related to the Norns and the Well of Wyrd: we can see the three corners of the foreseeing mirror as the three Norns, the mirror as the well itself with the three Norns standing around it." (snip...) "Neither the dog nor the shock of grain, the magical mirror or the spindle, are likely attributes of the abbess of a christian nunnery, nor is an abbess likely to have been wandering around the countryside having adventures! On the other hand these symbols or attributes are highly typical of Heathen germanic matrons, goddesses, and holy women. The spindle is the attribute before all others of the norns, wise-women, idises, and other womanly wights associated with fate and fortune in the continental Germanic countries." Despite of the editorial comments in the texts, there is a wealth of information at this site, including rites associated with Walpurgis Night, information about the King and Queen of May, and more. Some quick correspondances I can recall: Ceres/Demeter, Persephone and Walburga---birth, death, and renewal cycles, which in the Harry Potter books are represented (in a strange way), by Voldemort's quest for immortality. Odin hung on the World Tree for nine nights in order to gain wisdom. While he was hanging, the shapes of the twigs on the Tree gave Odin the knowledge to create the Runic Alphabet. The number nine, then, is also a powerful magical number in the Norse/Teutonic world, and is associated with Odin. So is human sacrifice--- nine men were sacrificed as an offering to Odin in several places; some have become the famous "bog men" found all over Europe. (bog men=bogey man?) The Norns/Furies, and the role of the number three in Norse/Teutonic cycles is also very significant. A charm is spoken three times to set it in motion, for one thing. There are examples in the Ring Cycle and other sagas that would make for a book if I listed them here. There is also the mention of the rune Nauthiz. Nauthiz is the rune of need and constraint--- the constraint being that the person affected cannot get on with his/her own life until the need is satisfied. (Harry and the Prophecy, anyone?) The meaning of the rune in a reading depends upon its placement; and there is some difference of opinion on whether this rune can be read in a reversed position. However, when one is inclined to read it thus, it has the meaning of a path wrongly tread, which can be righted only at a cost---amends have to be made, usually involving the suffering in another, normally unrelated aspect of the person's life. (Harry giving up Ginny, perhaps?) The number associated with Nauthiz is the number 7. Much has been said about this number already; my interest in this is that three Nauthiz is the symbol for safety. So, we have 3x Nauthiz, or 3x7=21. 21 is reduced to a single number by adding the numerals together, thus we have 2+1= 3. Those interested in Numerology will notice, then, that the number seven is essentially in the same place as the number nine, which is something like a zero equivalent---in other words, if you add nines into the Numerology computations, the answer will be the same as if one discounted them altogether. Many numerologists just cross them out, and add the remaining numbers, (unless the nine combines to make a master number such as 11, 22, or 33.) So, there is a Numerological equivalency realtionship going on with the seven and the nine---a number mentioned above. This post threatens to become impossibly long, so I will leave it at this, for now! PP :wizard: (ed:code) -------------------- OPAST, Vault 717, Order of the Holy Grain
Boothies of the World, Unite! picture by fawkes28 Numquam Luna Lupinotuum |
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Oct 23 2005, 04:38 PM
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Eeylops Owl Cage Cleaner Posts: 249 Joined: 10:51am August 2, 2005 Location: Snuggled inside a warm Klein bottle in the redwood forest |
Thanks, Prongs Patronus! Great info. For those who are interested, there is more on Walpurgisnacht in Wikipedia. Interestingly, the English entry covers it mainly from a Finnish & Swedish angle with lots more on the histroy of Walpurga and how her holiday got intermixed with the viking fertility celebrations. The German version version has more on the Harz Mts / Brocken connection (though of course strictly auf deutsch).
cheers, DeGustibus "My work is not a 'novel', but an 'heroic romance' a much older and quite different variety of literature - J.R.R.T. -------------------- An optimist believes we live in the best of all possible worlds.
A pessimist fears this may be true. Boy was my potion-was-a-horcrux theory wrong! |
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Oct 23 2005, 07:46 PM
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Fortescue's Spoon Polisher Posts: 3,539 Joined: 1:29pm March 16, 2005 |
I was reading about Walpurgis night and came apon Faust by Goethe and was shocked at the similarities between what we see as LV's quest and the quest of Faust. from wickipedia:
QUOTE Faust or Faustus is the protagonist of a popular German tale that has been used as the basis for many different fictional works. The story concerns the fate of a learned gentleman named Faust, who in his quest for forbidden or advanced knowledge of material things, summons the Devil (represented by Mephistopheles), who offers to serve him for a period of time, at the cost of his soul. What stuck me about the play is the chapter "Walpurgis night" where we are first introduced to Lillith (her only part in the play) Lillith is the wife of adam and incidentally I mentioned her in the alchemy thread a few days ago: Here is my post about Lillith in relation to alchemy the moon and the chemical wedding:QUOTE - Luna is often called Anima Mundi, the World Soul which surrounds cosmos, half-human half-animal Melusina, or even Lilith. As Melusina, she is similar to Virgo, who is often associated with the Mercurial Serpent. As the Moon, Melusina is also compared to Venus or Aphrodite, not unlike Mercurius. Similarly, Melusina as Lillith, is the first wife of Adam in Paradise, whereas Mercurius is often associated with Adam before the Fall. It is only natural to represent Mercurius as the anima, which alchemists often did. Again, out of context here but I think it is interesting that we see the same character in two different threads and this character has the name origin of Harry's mother. There is another scene about a young woman who persisted in wearing a velvet band around her neck night and day. When her new husband removed it while she slept, her head fell off. She had earlier been executed, but kept alive by the witchcraft of the band. I am reminded about howthe use of magic is used to keep her mortality. (ok , this one might be a stretch)QUOTE Legends about Dr. Faustus began sometime after 1540 (when the real Johannes Faustus, a scholar, passed away) and, in most versions, are about a quest for forbidden knowledge. Previous to Goethe's refiguring of this tale, Christopher Marlowe's Doctor Faustus -- in which the protagonist is damned for his pursuit of illegitimate power through knowledge -- was the most important and influential version (Mack 462). In Goethe's Faust, however, the protagonist pursues experience rather than knowledge. "His contract with Mephistopheles provides that he will die at the moment he declares himself satisfied, content to rest in the present; he stakes his life and his salvation on his capacity ever to yearn for something beyond" (Mack 462). This is exactly what Tom Riddle does. He is dammed because hi is trying to gain immortality or forbidden knowledge. The books of Harry Potter are about the transformation of Harry to the enlightened soul. This can also be said of Faust in Goethes play. He is an alchemist who trades his pure quest for a pact with the devil and as a result damns his soul. Maybe Walpurgis KNights is a reference to Faust and has nothing to do with Teutonic Symbolism? THoughts? -------------------- |
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Oct 23 2005, 08:12 PM
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Director of Nicholas Flamel Laboratories Posts: 11,087 Joined: 11:06am January 28, 2005 Location: Lighting the mountain path for Llewellyn ap Gryffudd |
**deleted by me because I got my Faust and Dr. Faustus mixed up**
-------------------- The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity.--Harlan Ellison
My father considered a walk among the mountains as the equivalent of churchgoing.--Aldous Huxley |
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Oct 24 2005, 05:46 AM
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Director of Nicholas Flamel Laboratories Posts: 11,087 Joined: 11:06am January 28, 2005 Location: Lighting the mountain path for Llewellyn ap Gryffudd |
Excellent research, guys!
It's interesting how May Day keeps cropping up in connection with Walpurgis. May Day was traditionally the first day of summer, which is why the summer solstice (June 21) was called "midsummer's day". Anyhow, it's interesting, if a bit of a stretch, to say that six months from May Day is All Hallow's Day. The day before that is Halloween, (All Hallow's Eve) or Samhain. The day Harry's parents were killed and Harry survived the AK. The flight of Walpurga reminds me of the Wild Hunt of Celtic mythology. (It also occurs in Norse mythology as well, with Odin at the head of the hunt.) Led by Gwyn ap Nudd, the hunt searched for souls on their wild ride through the skies. Traditionally this took place in either fall (August) or winter. Gwyn's chariot was drawn by eight creatures and his henchmen, and he swept up all the souls he could find. However, there are other traditions that say that Gwyn rooted out wrongdoers; in other words, he was a crime fighter. (It is thought that this is where the origins of Santa and his reindeer come from.) QUOTE I was reading about Walpurgis night and came apon Faust by Goethe and was shocked at the similarities between what we see as LV's quest and the quest of Faust. from wickipedia:Quote Faust or Faustus is the protagonist of a popular German tale that has been used as the basis for many different fictional works. The story concerns the fate of a learned gentleman named Faust, who in his quest for forbidden or advanced knowledge of material things, summons the Devil (represented by Mephistopheles), who offers to serve him for a period of time, at the cost of his soul. I agree, M. Christopher Marlowe's Dr. Faustus is very similar as well. In Marlowe's case, I don't remember the Knights of Walpurgis, but he based his Dr. Faustus on Agrippa, one of the most famous alchemists of all time, and John Dee, the philosopher. I mentioned very early on in the alchemy thread about the similarities between Agrippa and LV, not the least of which is a book that has the potential to kill. One day he left his home to run and errand and left his wife instructions to not rent out his study to anyone. Well, in his absence, she rented the room to a young student and gave him the key. When Agrippa returned home, the boy was sitting with Agrippa's Book of Spells open and had conjured a demon, which then strangled the boy. Agrippa ordered the demon to bring him back to life, which it did, long enough for Agrippa to get him out into the street, where the spell wore off and the boy died for real. That always reminded me of Tom's diary. Agrippa wrote many of the more influential alchemical and astrological works of the time, including "Of Geomancy," in which we find quite plainly just where JKR got the names Rubeus and Albus from. They are plain as day in the text. -------------------- The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity.--Harlan Ellison
My father considered a walk among the mountains as the equivalent of churchgoing.--Aldous Huxley |
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Oct 24 2005, 07:29 AM
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Flesh-Eating-Slug Catcher Posts: 187 Joined: 2:21am September 28, 2005 Location: Too far from the shore |
I don't think you can compare Faust and LV. I know the legend of Faust, I read Marlowe's and Goethe's version and it's a topic I love. (Arianrhod, you're right there are no Knights of Walpurgis in Marlowe's Faustus and even if he knew of Agrippa and Dee I think he based his play on a very recent translation of the story of Faust - at least that's what was said in all (i.e. 50 or so) essays I read on this play :read: )
I just think the basic aim of Faust and LV is not the same. Faust wants immortality for knowledge. LV wants immortality for its own sake. Knowledge is not what LV is after, that's the reason why Goethe is able to redeem Faust at the end of his play (Marlowe doesn't but I believe it is because in the 1580s-90s, it would have been too dangerous. And he did not need that to be in danger. Poor Kit), you cannot redeem LV, there is no 'good' in his quest for immortality. On the topic of the knights. First, memyslfnI, I make a difference b/w Teutonic (and I say Germanic/Saxon but not Teutonic. I think this can only be applied to the Knights. But I'm not sure) and Norse myths. Ok, they are similar no problem about that but I think that for example the legend of Fenrir is strictly Norse. That's not important, it's just the love of details of someone who spent too much time studying the Celts, the Vikings and the Germanic people. You were right with the Hitler parallel. As much as I hate it, I've realised that for many Europeans (and indeed a lot of Brits) the synonym of Evil is Hitler (I'm not saying that Hitler was not evil. Just that he wasn't the only one) and that giving German names to bad guys is a way to make sure everyone sees them as baddies (I was told that in Hollywood when you give a French name to someone nowadays it's a good way to show that he's a nasty character. That's good old stereotypes, useful in movies and litterature :headdesk: ). So when JKRwas looking for a name for the DE she probably thought of Hitler's neopaganism (there was a Panzer division named Niebelungen) and since Niebelungen had already been used, the other name that immediatly comes to mind when you're thinking about German paganism is Walpurgis. It has also the pagan/witchcraft connotations you want (as Arianrhod said, it's Bealtaine for the Celts first day of summer) and by mixing it with the Teutonic Knights to give 'Knights of Walpurgis' you have your bad guys easily identified as such. Historically speaking, the Teutonic Knights were not 'bad'. They were like the Templars, they were fighters working for their faith, the whole point of A Nevski was to resist the catholicism brought by these knights. (Eisenstein's movie is pretty good, though I have to admit the knights made me laugh). To sum up this unorganised post: I think JKR used Knights of Walpurgis as a working title for the DE because it has all the connotations she needed for the DE: paganism/witchcraft/german (hence WWII, Hitler and racism)association. Then she probably realised it was unfair and too easy to give the bad guys a foreign sounding name and chose DE, which I really prefer, it's more original. Off topic: Arianrhod: are you Welsh? Do you have any Welsh association? Does Arianrhod appear outside the 4th branch of the Mabinogi? -------------------- "The truth is rarely pure and never simple" - Wilde
"Rien n'est plus drole que le malheur. C'est la chose la plus comique au monde." - Beckett "There is no sin but ignorance" - Marlowe |
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Oct 24 2005, 08:27 AM
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Fortescue's Spoon Polisher Posts: 3,539 Joined: 1:29pm March 16, 2005 |
Thanks Cigfa
! What do you think of the chapter in Faust called Walpurgis Night. I know there are no Knights of Walpurgis in Faust but we do have that Chapter. Do you think it could be a play on words by JKR? Especially since that is the introduction of Lillith in the play (and her only appearance)? Again, I agree with the quest of the two characters, Faust and LV and as I said its been about 20 years since I read it. But even though the reason is different they both have damned themselves for immortality did they not? They both were seeking "forbidden knowledge". What do you think? QUOTE Historically speaking, the Teutonic Knights were not 'bad'. They were like the Templars, they were fighters working for their faith, the whole point of A Nevski was to resist the catholicism brought by these knights. (Eisenstein's movie is pretty good, though I have to admit the knights made me laugh) Yes! I agree! They were not bad. They even reisisted the killing of muslims even though the church wanted this deed done by them!QUOTE On the topic of the knights. First, memyslfnI, I make a difference b/w Teutonic (and I say Germanic/Saxon but not Teutonic. I think this can only be applied to the Knights. But I'm not sure) and Norse myths. Ok, they are similar no problem about that but I think that for example the legend of Fenrir is strictly Norse. That's not important, it's just the love of details of someone who spent too much time studying the Celts, the Vikings and the Germanic people. My source , maybe you can let me know if it is reputable teutonic symbols
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Oct 24 2005, 09:02 AM
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Flesh-Eating-Slug Catcher Posts: 187 Joined: 2:21am September 28, 2005 Location: Too far from the shore |
I did not like the second part of Faust, I confess. The Walpurgis night is at the beginning of this part if I remember correctly (I read it some 5 years ago).
I think Goethe was just using some of the common stock themes about witchcraft/devil in Germany. The whole idea of the witch sabbat and so on. I don't remember about Lilith. I'll try to check that tonight (once I'm at home and no longer at work....oops). But I don't think we should see a link b/w Lilith and Lily. For me Lily really comes from the flower (like Petunia) and not the 'witchy' version of Adam's first wife. I think Lilith is there at the sabbat (since this chapter is a description of a sabbat) because she is perceived as the example of a 'bad' woman (Eve being the good one, even with the apple mistake), independent and (I think, but I'm not sure) lustful: the origin of the medieval witch. Hence her appearance in the chapter. As you say, that's her only appearance and as far as I remember the other women we see in Goethe's Faust are (of course) Gretchen and Helen (or is it Alexandre's paramour? I don't remember). Helen is also in Marlowe ("her lips suck forth my soul, see where it flies" very Dementor-ish) because in terms of Faustian legend, she's the model of the beautiful but dangerous woman. If you want to compare, look at Bellatrix, not Lily. A pun? I'm not sure. Just the use of the common stock of references about witchcraft and paganism in continental Europe. For example, I wrote a short fan-fiction for myself and I used May-Eve (i.e. Walpurgis/Bealtaine) and Imbolc (1st February) as key dates because they are linked with Celtic paganism and were later linked with Witchcraft. I'm not saying JKR is not a good writer, just that when you try to write something that has to do with witchcraft, you'll go and look back to the Middle Ages and what was 'witchcraft' at the time. The Sabbat and the Walpurgis Night immediatly come to mind. And as I said, the mix with the Teutonic Knights is Rowling version of the Niebelungen Panzer Division, for me. Now on the damnation of Faust. What I love in Goethe's play is that Faust is saved at the end, because he sold his soul for a greater end: knowledge. It is less obvious in Marlowe but the opening speech of Faustus (have a look, that's the 1604 quarto, thanks to Gutemberg.org: FAUSTUS. Settle thy studies, Faustus, and begin To sound the depth of that thou wilt profess: Having commenc'd, be a divine in shew, Yet level at the end of every art, And live and die in Aristotle's works. Sweet Analytics, 'tis thou hast ravish'd me! Bene disserere est finis logices. Is, to dispute well, logic's chiefest end? Affords this art no greater miracle? Then read no more; thou hast attain'd that end: A greater subject fitteth Faustus' wit: Bid Economy farewell, and Galen come, Seeing, Ubi desinit philosophus, ibi incipit medicus: Be a physician, Faustus; heap up gold, And be eterniz'd for some wondrous cure: Summum bonum medicinae sanitas, The end of physic is our body's health. Why, Faustus, hast thou not attain'd that end? Is not thy common talk found aphorisms? Are not thy bills hung up as monuments, Whereby whole cities have escap'd the plague, And thousand desperate maladies been eas'd? Yet art thou still but Faustus, and a man. Couldst thou make men to live eternally, (not himself, everybody) Or, being dead, raise them to life again, Then this profession were to be esteem'd. Physic, farewell! Where is Justinian? [Reads.] Si una eademque res legatur duobus, alter rem, alter valorem rei, &c. A pretty case of paltry legacies! [Reads.] Exhoereditare filium non potest pater, nisi, &c. Such is the subject of the institute, And universal body of the law: This study fits a mercenary drudge, Who aims at nothing but external trash; Too servile and illiberal for me. When all is done, divinity is best: Jerome's Bible, Faustus; view it well. [Reads.] Stipendium peccati mors est. Ha! Stipendium, &c. The reward of sin is death: that's hard. [Reads.] Si peccasse negamus, fallimur, et nulla est in nobis veritas; If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and there's no truth in us. Why, then, belike we must sin, and so consequently die:Ay, we must die an everlasting death. What doctrine call you this, Che sera, sera, What will be, shall be? Divinity, adieu! These metaphysics of magicians, And necromantic books are heavenly; Lines, circles, scenes, letters, and characters; Ay, these are those that Faustus most desires. O, what a world of profit and delight, Of power, of honour, of omnipotence, Is promis'd to the studious artizan! All things that move between the quiet poles Shall be at my command: emperors and kings Are but obeyed in their several provinces, Nor can they raise the wind, or rend the clouds; But his dominion that exceeds in this, Stretcheth as far as doth the mind of man; A sound magician is a mighty god: Here, Faustus, tire thy brains to gain a deity.) shows that he is dissatisfied with what he can learn. He wants more knowledge, but not necessarily immortality. However the rest of the play failed to show that thirst for knowledge, instead we got a search for pleasure, but then you have to keep in mind Marlowe's obligations for the stage. Goethe's Faustus (esp. part II) is nearly impossible to stage, Marlowe's Faustus is more burlesque but at least you can stage it! Still, in both plays we have remorse and Goethe is able to save Faust. LV wanted greater knowledge to avoid death. Faust wanted to avoid death to gain greater knowledge (in Marlowe, he's only granted 24 years). That's were the difference lies for me. For LV immortality is the aim, for Faust it is only a mean. Sorry, that was very long indeed. But I could not resist quoting the opening of The Tragical History -------------------- "The truth is rarely pure and never simple" - Wilde
"Rien n'est plus drole que le malheur. C'est la chose la plus comique au monde." - Beckett "There is no sin but ignorance" - Marlowe |
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