War Memorial |
 Jun 21 2008, 05:06 PM
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#11
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Leaky Lounge Over Achiever  Posts: 9,324 Joined: 4:57am January 28, 2005 Location: near Muggleswick, UK   |
QUOTE(Laura W @ Jun 21 2008, 08:13 PM)  It took place at Hogwarts. There should, of course, also be a war memorial at Hogsmeade - there, a statue, i think - honouring all those who had died in this war which started at the end of June 1995 and ended May 2, 1998. I don't think the wizarding world ever considered it as a war (though I would be interested if you can point to canon in the books to the contrary) particularly since there was only one battle at the very end, and only a small part of the wizarding world ever took sides.QUOTE(Laura W @ Jun 21 2008, 08:13 PM) We know that Lupin had a house because, at the end of GoF, DD told Sirius to "lie low at Lupin's." Actually, that always puzzled me because Lupin doesn't look like he could afford a house or its upkeep, and he does seem to be at Grimmauld Place a lot during book 5.. Also Lupin's could mean a flat, or even whatever accommodation he could be renting or even just borrowing or staying at with the owner's permission. Thus there might not be space for a wife or family there. But in any case I imagine Lupin spent a lot of time at the Tonks family home, and it would be Tonks' mother making the decision where to bury her daughter and son-in-law so I do think they would be buried there, near to where their surviving family would be living.--------------------  W.L.Y.J. We love you Jo |
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Jun 21 2008, 05:29 PM
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#12
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Disgruntled House-Elf at The Leaky Cauldron  Posts: 437 Joined: 2:11pm June 21, 2008 Location: shopping in Diagon Alley |
Though I think it is a beautiful idea having them burried there I doubt it would be the case, as many before me have said families would want their loved once close to them, and few could visit Hogwarts often, so I guess the bodies would be burried elsewere, but I am sure a memorial would be built at Hogwarts to honor the good guys!
QUOTE I don't think the wizarding world ever considered it as a war (though I would be interested if you can point to canon in the books to the contrary) particularly since there was only one battle at the very end, and only a small part of the wizarding world ever took sides. I disagree, I would believe they would think of it as a war, if not for anything else for the lack of another name for it... what else would you call it? I think the situation JKR portraits is very similar to that of a war; a group has taken over the government, people are killed and put into jail for no good reason, but rebellion groups keep fighting... that I would say is the same situation as the one on WW2 (though that of course was on a bigger scale) wars are seldom hands-on combat all the time... --------------------  One who doesn't have determenation doesn't have a future... |
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Jun 21 2008, 05:56 PM
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#13
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Newest Housekeeper at The Leaky Cauldron Posts: 717 Joined: 4:16pm April 26, 2008 |
I believe there were 3 battles.
The Battle of the Department of Mysteries between the DA & Order of the Phoenix versus 12 death eaters and Voldemort. The Battle of the Tower where the death eaters invaded Hogwarts. The coup d`etat of the Ministry of Magic, I don't know if this was a battle but the MOM was killed. The Battle of Hogwarts, the book says that 50 of the defenders perished but Voldemort was Vanquished for good. This post has been edited by cooncatbob: Jun 21 2008, 05:58 PM -------------------- Work like you don't need the money
Love like you've never been hurt, and Dance like no one is watching. |
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Jun 21 2008, 06:05 PM
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#14
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Leaky Lounge Over Achiever Posts: 9,324 Joined: 4:57am January 28, 2005 Location: near Muggleswick, UK |
QUOTE(keola sombra @ Jun 21 2008, 11:29 PM) I think the situation JKR portraits is very similar to that of a war; a group has taken over the government, people are killed and put into jail for no good reason, but rebellion groups keep fighting That happens far too often in the world and is seldom considered a war. Generally it is only considered a war when you have one country fighting another, or a whole country split into two big factions and fighting one another. Probably a coup d'etat would be a better description.QUOTE(cooncatbob @ Jun 21 2008, 11:56 PM) The Battle of the Department of Mysteries between the DA & Order of the Phoenix versus 12 death eaters and Voldemort. I don't consider any of these to be battles, as they simply weren't big enough. Also the first two were the Order and DA against the Death Eaters, with one group of people fighting another, neither of which involved the Ministry which is the lawful ruling body in this part of the wizarding worldThe Battle of the Tower where the death eaters invaded Hogwarts. The coup d`etat of the Ministry of Magic, I don't know if this was a battle but the MOM was killed. I doubt there was any significant fighting when the Death Eaters took over the Ministry, as Voldemort seemed to be aiming for a risk-free take over by imperiusing most or all of those near the Minister, and it sounds like the Minister was the only one who died. This post has been edited by roonwit: Jun 21 2008, 06:17 PM -------------------- W.L.Y.J. We love you Jo |
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Jun 22 2008, 02:52 PM
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#15
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Stocking Snitches at Quality Quidditch Supplies Posts: 672 Joined: 6:25am December 9, 2007 Location: Canada |
"I don't think the wizarding world ever considered it as a war (though I would be interested if you can point to canon in the books to the contrary) particularly since there was only one battle at the very end, and only a small part of the wizarding world ever took sides." - roonwit
Wars are more than major battles. Especially modern warfare. Modern warfare consists of reigns of terror; of one side torturing, killing and physically/psychologically intimidating the other side into submission ... and final defeat. From my own personal experience - without getting too personal - I point to the recent (ie - last 20 years) conflicts in Rwanda, Sierra Leone, the Congo and Northern Uganda. Not done in the way of the American Civil War (with great and notable battles in specific locations), but genuine bloody warfare - one faction against another - nonetheless. (The definitive battle in the Second Wizarding War took place at Hogwarts, but the general-in-charge Tom Riddle hardly restricted his war strategy to that. It was evident everywhere and, as it progressed, the whole British WW became all too aware of the situation.) The start of the war of Lord Voldemort and his Death Eaters against the rest of the British WW was marked with Dumbledore's speech to the students of Hogwarts at the end of Gof: "It is my belief - and never have I so hoped that I am mistaken - that we are all facing dark and difficult times. Some of you, in this Hall, have already suffered directly at the hands of Lord Voldemort. Many of your families have been torn assunder. A week ago, a student was taken from our midst." The peace (ie - non-war state) that the WW had experienced since the First War ended on Oct. 31, 1981 was now at an end. That is what Dumbledore was telling the staff and students assembled in the Hall on that day. And he was right. The title of chapter 38 in OoP is entitled, "The Second War Begins." From HBP, Chapter One -- "While the Prime Minister surreptitiously touched the wood of his desk, Fudge continued, 'But Black's by-the-by now. The point is, we're at war, Prime Minister, and steps must be taken.' 'At war?' repeated the Prime Minister nervously. 'Surely that's a bit of an overstatement?' 'He Who Must Be Named has now been joined by those of his followers who broke out of Azkaban in January,' said Fudge. 'Since they have moved into the open, they have been wrecking havoc.' " When Harry and the Weasleys went to Diagon Alley in HBP, they noticed how it had changed. The Daily Prophet articles about how the wizard responsible for the First War on the WW was back and was - with his army of DEs, Dementors, Imperiused people, giants and at least one werewolf - , killing and kidnapping witches and wizards (eg - Amelia Bones, Ollivander, E. Vance, Florean Fortescue) along with Muggles, and causing destruction throughout the land put the WW back in fear mode. They were back in a wartime situation. "Harry noticed that many of the people who passed them had the same harried, anxious look as Mrs. Weasley, and that nobody was stopping to talk any more; the shoppers stayed together in their own tightly knit groups, moving intently about there busingss. Nobody seemed to be shopping alone." When Hannah Abbott's mother was killed by a member of the enemy army in HBP, don't tell me the 16-year-old girl did not see a wizarding war taking place. Same with the family of that nine-year-old boy Imperiused by the enemy side to try and kill his grandparents. (By the way, that last example brought to my mind the true yet unfathomable stories I've heard about young children in the wars I mentioned at the top of this post who were kidnapped by one or the other armies in their particular conflict and were forced to mutilate or kill their own relatives.) From what we are led to believe in chapter 21 of HBP, every issue of the Daily Prophet was filled with war news; most particularly, who had been killed, injured, captured or arrested (p.427-428, Raincoast). As Ron put it on p.442, "I'm losing track of what's happening to everyone's relatives." These relatives are ordinary members of the British WW. And I don't buy for one moment that they do not know that they are at war, and with whom they are at war. And, of course, DH is all about the Second Wizarding War. People being rounded up and tried - and having their wands taken away - on false charges of stealing magic from the so-called real wizards. Underground radio broadcasts giving citizens the real information (ie - the war news) that the occupiers have suppressed. (LV and his lot are the occupiers I just referred to; taking over the government, the legal system, the media, the military, the transportation system (ie - Apparation in and out of the Ministry, the Floo network) and the whole infrastructure of the previously-free British WW. Nobody in the country could not notice that. Could not be aware that they are at war.) There seem to be quite a few Muggle-borns in the WW. And there is no doubt that they know war has been declared against them. They are being rounded up, their children are not allowed to go to Hogwarts, they are being sent to Azkaban. Such as Ted Tonks and Dean Thomas are on the run from the enemy side who has taken control. And these Muggle-borns have lots of friends, no doubt. They, too, realize that there is a war on. (For some reason brings to mind the Jews in Germany, Poland, etc. during the Muggle WW2 who were forced to flee, to lie about their identity, and who were hidden by some unbelievably courageous non-Jewish German, Polish, Dutch, etc. families.) And then there was the final battle at Hogwarts. The final battle in the war. A war in which it had appeared that the enemy (LV et al) had won ... but which wouldn't really be over - as all knew - until Undesirable Number One had been caught and eliminated. Harry's picture with the large reward offered for him posted up all over for the WW to see, and in The Prophet and The Quibbler too. The Order of the Phoenix and Dumbledore's Army were the professional soldiers in this war. But, on the homefront, it was being observed and fought by all British wizards and witches. They couldn't avoid it. Their families were being killed and threatened. Their way of life was totally turned upside down. And then, when they were alerted that a major battle - perhaps to the finish - was to take place at the best wizarding school in the UK, the brave wizarding civilians came to do their part. To end this life of terror and despair they had been forced to live ... or die in the attempt. For us, it might be about Harry Potter but, to the citizens of the UK WW, it was about ending the war. About living free and in peace on their beautiful island, as they had in the period between the First and Second wars. Having something to celebrate again (taking this back to what DD said in Chapter One of PS). A civil war is still a war. And, considering his personality and his history, there is no reason to believe Tom Marvolo Riddle would have stopped at Britain. World domination seems his style --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "We know that Lupin had a house because, at the end of GoF, DD told Sirius to "lie low at Lupin's." - laura W "Actually, that always puzzled me because Lupin doesn't look like he could afford a house or its upkeep, and he does seem to be at Grimmauld Place a lot during book 5.. Also Lupin's could mean a flat, or even whatever accommodation he could be renting or even just borrowing or staying at with the owner's permission. Thus there might not be space for a wife or family there. But in any case I imagine Lupin spent a lot of time at the Tonks family home, and it would be Tonks' mother making the decision where to bury her daughter and son-in-law so I do think they would be buried there, near to where their surviving family would be living." - roonwit 'Fraid I still disagree with you here. (Grin) When DD said that to Sirius about staying with Lupin, I just assumed he meant the house where Lupin grew up. He did have a mother and father and I assume they had a house somewhere in England. So, I assume that house would go to Remus after their deaths. He wouldn't have to pay to buy it. Even if he only had an apartment, however, there is no reason that a married couple could not live comfortably in an apartment. I know many who do. Even with a baby. A two-bedroom apartment is quite sufficient. And i take Lupin's comment to Harry in DH, "Even her own family is disgusted by our marriage, what parents want their only daughter to marry a werewolf" as given. I do not believe Ted or Andromeda ever approved of their daughter's choice of a husband. And I don't think he spent much time in their presence. Laura I Support JKR edited by lw to correct a couple of typos This post has been edited by Laura W: Jun 23 2008, 05:52 AM |
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Jun 22 2008, 03:25 PM
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#16
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Disgruntled House-Elf at The Leaky Cauldron Posts: 437 Joined: 2:11pm June 21, 2008 Location: shopping in Diagon Alley |
QUOTE That happens far too often in the world and is seldom considered a war. Generally it is only considered a war when you have one country fighting another, or a whole country split into two big factions and fighting one another. Probably a coup d'etat would be a better description. Actually the def. of war is: A state of open, armed, often prolonged conflict carried on between nations, states, or parties. Earlier war often would be betwene countries, or groups, and would often be more direct, BUT in todays world it's often more subtle, torture - terror - negotiations... coup d'etat would be a good way of phrasing it too, but it kinda was a war before that, though the DE takiing over made it more open - like they went from a cold war to a hot war -------------------- One who doesn't have determenation doesn't have a future... |
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Jun 22 2008, 04:52 PM
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#17
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Leaky Lounge Over Achiever Posts: 9,324 Joined: 4:57am January 28, 2005 Location: near Muggleswick, UK |
QUOTE(Laura W @ Jun 22 2008, 08:52 PM) The peace (ie - non-war state) that the WW had experienced since the First War ended on Oct. 13, 1981 was now at an end. That is what Dumbledore was telling the staff and students assembled in the Hall on that day. And he was right. Well, if you insist there is a war, I don't think you can start it any earlier than that chapter in OotP. But I think it is too simplistic to divide everything into war and peace. Mysterious deaths and disappearances are by no means unique, and before the disturbance in the Ministry hardly anyone had died (Bertha Jorkins, Crouch senior and Cedric in GoF, and Bode in OotP), and really Voldemort's side weren't achieving much. I think you can call it preparation for war or an uneasy peace, but I don't think of it as war.The title of chapter 38 in OoP is entitled, "The Second War Begins." QUOTE(Laura W @ Jun 22 2008, 08:52 PM) When Harry and the Weasleys went to Diagon Alley in HBP, they noticed how it had changed. But that sort of thing isn't unique to wartime.QUOTE(Laura W @ Jun 22 2008, 08:52 PM) When Hannah Abbott's mother was killed by a member of the enemy army in HBP, don't tell me the 16-year-old girl did not see a wizarding war taking place. No, she saw her mother dead. I doubt she ever thought of it in terms of armies (I don't think you can call the death eaters an army anyway), merely the tragedy of the loss of her mother. I don't see how this is really any different from say a successful criminal gang killing someone they didn't like.I think the reason why I am uneasy about calling the time during HBP a war is that no-one is fighting back. The Ministry really achieves nothing during that year, nor does the Order (other than capturing a couple of death eaters in the fight at Hogwarts at the end of the book. QUOTE(Laura W @ Jun 22 2008, 08:52 PM) And, of course, DH is all about the Second Wizarding War. Actually, if you want to call it a war, I would have said it was already lost after the wedding. All you have after that is a totalitarian regime trying to clear up a few people still opposing it - not much different really from what would have happened after the Battle of Hogwarts (apart from the totalitarian bit). Even the Order is no longer really fighting back, merely trying to limit the damage. Really only the DA is doing anything active, in a very small way, to oppose the regime.QUOTE(Laura W @ Jun 22 2008, 08:52 PM) And i take Lupin's comment to Harry in DH, "Even her own family is disgusted by our marriage, what parents want their only daughter to marry a werewolf" as given. I do not believe Ted or Andromeda ever approved of their daughter's choice of a husband. And I don't think he spent much time in their presence. That was said by Lupin at his most negative, so I don't think you can take it as a balanced assessment of the situation. Ted and Andromeda are hardly going to pleased at Tonks' choice of a husband, but that doesn't mean they aren't trying their best to get on with Lupin for the sake of their daughter. Equally, Andromeda would have gone though some tough times during that year, with her husband on the run and later murdered, so I think she would stay close to the only family she had left that would talk to her.It is probably also worth pointing out that even if Lupin has a house, that doesn't mean it is actually habitable. Sirius stays there briefly after the end of GoF, but seeing as he has been living in a cave for the past year, and living rough for the year before that, he is clearly going to put up with rather low living conditions. -------------------- W.L.Y.J. We love you Jo |
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Jun 23 2008, 04:32 PM
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#18
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Perusing the Magical Menagerie Posts: 87 Joined: 3:54pm April 20, 2007 Location: Room of Requirement |
I have to agree with Laura W.
From the moment of Voldemort's rebirth in GoF the Wizarding World has been in a state of war, whether it was open warfare or not and whether any actually physical battles had been fought. DD and the Order were preparing for it even if no one else was and despite the fact that the MoM was denying anything was wrong. I don't need any more proof than that to tell me that the WW was at war. If Voldemort had been successful in killing Harry in the graveyard as he intended to do there is little doubt in my mind that the WW would have been in a state of open warfare from that moment onward. As it was Voldemort had to move in secret and used terrorist tactics to spread fear amongst the masses making them question their leaders motivations as well as the motivations of certain key figures on the side of light, namely Harry Potter and Albus Dumbledore. (We can blame Rita Skeeter for that.) That's why it was so easy later for a Voldemort/DE controlled ministry to make Harry out to be some kind of criminal and to put a price on his head. As for the majority of the WW not having taken any sides in the conflict or not having been involved at all, I have to disagree. The war was everywhere and could not be avoided by anyone in the WW. The MoM was checking everyone's blood status, people were disappearing around them, Snatchers were working all over the country, goods were very likely being rationed or prices were skyrocketing and the media was full of propaganda and lies. I don't think it would have been possible for those not directly involved in the fighting to have been entirely unaware of what was going on. I'm sure most of the WW chose a side during the war whether or not they fought in it or told anyone where their alligence was. The words left behind on the sign at the Potter home in Godric's Hollow is evidence of the fact that the WW was not unaware of what was happening. -------------------- "I thought I might go back to Godric's Hollow. For me, it started there, all of it." Harry- HBP pgs 650-651
"Courage in the face of the unknown is very important quality in a wizard....very important." -GoF pg 281 I Trusted Severus Snape. |
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Jun 23 2008, 04:54 PM
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#19
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Leaky Lounge Over Achiever Posts: 9,324 Joined: 4:57am January 28, 2005 Location: near Muggleswick, UK |
QUOTE(Ted's Souleater @ Jun 23 2008, 10:32 PM) If Voldemort had been successful in killing Harry in the graveyard as he intended to do there is little doubt in my mind that the WW would have been in a state of open warfare from that moment onward. That isn't true. It was always Voldemort's intention to start quietly and build up his strength before going public. Thus Harry messed things up by escaping; had Voldemort intended to go public straight away this wouldn't have mattered.QUOTE(Ted's Souleater @ Jun 23 2008, 10:32 PM) As it was Voldemort had to move in secret and used terrorist tactics to spread fear amongst the masses making them question their leaders motivations as well as the motivations of certain key figures on the side of light, namely Harry Potter and Albus Dumbledore. Actually, he didn't need to because the Ministry was doing such a good job of calling Harry and Dumbledore into question without any prompting. As far as spreading fear, that doesn't happen in OotP with the exception of the Azkaban breakout, and I suspect that was done to get back his most loyal supporters, not to spread fear.-------------------- W.L.Y.J. We love you Jo |
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Jun 23 2008, 07:24 PM
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#20
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Stocking Snitches at Quality Quidditch Supplies Posts: 672 Joined: 6:25am December 9, 2007 Location: Canada |
Even allowing for dividing the period from June 1995 until May 2, 1998 into "preparation for war" and "the actual war" ---
We are told by Sirius Black that practically from the moment of his rebirth, Voldemort was building up his army in the preparation for the war. In Chapter Five of OoP, which takes place five or six weeks after the scene in the graveyard in GoF, when Harry asks, "So what does Dumbledore reckon he's planning?", Sirius says, "Well, firstly, he (LV) wants to build up his army again. In the old days he had huge numbers at his command: witches and wizards he'd bullied or bewitched into following him, his faithful Death Eaters, a great variety of Dark creatures. You heard him planning to recruit the giants; well, they'll be just one of the groups he's after. He's certainly not going to try and take on the Ministry of Magic with only a dozen Death Eaters." And, we are told early in HBP (July 1996) that the DEs had been trying to recruit Slughorn for a year. That is, since Voldemort was reborn. On the other side, in OoP, during those five or six weeks since LV came back, the Order was also preparing for the inevitable Second Wizarding War by doing their own recruiting: Lupin among the werewolves, Charlie in Romania, etc. Later in OoP (ie - June 1996), after the incident at the MoM, the war breaks out in earnest. And the whole British WW knows it. Even the Daily Prophet announces it. Per Chapter "The Second War Begins" ("Hermoine read out snippets from the Prophet. It was now full of articles about how to repel Dementors, attempts by the Ministry to track down Death Eaters and hysterical letters claiming that the writer had seen Lord Voldemort walking past their house that very morning .."). From that moment until the early morning of May 2, 1998, everything I wrote in my previous posts were perpetrated on the citizens of the British WW. They were in a state of war against Lord Voldemort and his army, and he was in a state of war against them. Even if you want to say that the period between June 1995 - ie - the last chapter of GoF, so aptly and clever entitled "The Beginning" - and June 1996 was preparation for war (on both sides), and the actual war did not start until June 1996, that still negates your comment in your post #11:"I don't think the wizarding world ever considered it as a war." I do ... for the reasons I have outlined in my previous posts on this thread. Their loved ones were being killed, tortured, Imperiused and "disappeared" by the enemy; they were living in fear of Lord Voldemort and his followers; if they were Muggle-born, they were thrown into prison; if they had Muggle-born friends or relatives (as all wizards did), their friends or relatives were thrown into prison, etc,. So, even allowing that the first year was spent - on both sides - in preparation for war, once it started it was as terrible as it could be. And was felt by the whole British WW. It was in no way just one battle (the Battle of Hogwarts). It was already in full force early July of 1996 when Fudge visited the Muggle PM. And I totally disagree that the majority of the WW did not take sides. The Order of the Phoenix and Dumbledore's Army were the professional soldiers in this war. But, on the homefront, it was being observed and fought by all British wizards and witches. They couldn't avoid it. Their families were being killed and threatened. Their way of life was totally turned upside down. (As Ron put it on p.442 of HBP, "I'm losing track of what's happening to everyone's relatives.") And then, when they were alerted that a major battle - perhaps to the finish - was to take place at the best wizarding school in the UK, the brave wizarding civilians came to do their part. To end this life of terror and despair they had been forced to live ... or die in the attempt. (And, as far as I see it, the real first victim of the Second Wizarding War was Cedric Diggory and the last victim of the Second Wizarding War was Tom Marvolo Riddle.) Either way, my original point of my post #15 was to really disagree with your statement that "I don't think the wizarding world ever considered it as a war." I consider it to be a war - the Second Wizarding War started by the man who also started the first one, with the same aim -, and I believe strongly that the British WW considered it to be a full-blown war (with both sides in the conflict being British; but, as I said before, a civil war is still a war) as well. You don't. Ok. (pauses for a friendly agree-to-disagree moment (grin)) Anyway, isn't this supposed to be about the Memorial? (heh, heh) Well, I still see that as I wrote in my post #8. Laura --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Franklin Delano Roosevelt: "I have seen war. I have seen war on land and sea. I have seen blood running from the wounded. I have seen the dead in the mud. I have seen cities destroyed. I have seen children starving. I have seen the agony of mothers and wives. I hate war." Robert E. Lee: "It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it." Remus J. Lupin: "... but he will know why I died and I hope he will understand. I was trying to make a world in which he could live a happier life." Laura W: "Thank you JK Rowling, for so accurately portraying both Evil and the high cost of defeating it." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This post has been edited by Laura W: Jun 24 2008, 10:49 AM |
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