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The Wizard and the Hopping Pot, Some thoughts on Dumbledore's commentary, and some questions for a
JohannMdlAmerica
post Dec 10 2008, 02:35 PM
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The Wizard and the Hopping Pot

Some thoughts on the commentary, and some questions
~~~~~

The commentary of Dumbledore focuses on several aspects: Why help when there are consequences? The commentary states the Great Inquisitions of the Fifteenth-Seventeenth Century were in flower. Helping a Muggle was a risk unto death by burning, pressing, or hanging. Indeed, the story was changed over time to reflect a pro-Wizarding, anti-Muggle bias.

Dumbledore also comments on Brutus Malfoy and his positions of “wizards first” and “strength in wizarding by not helping Muggles.” Finally, Dumbledore comments on what happens when a solid story is re-adapted for children, and has a saccharine overcoating applied.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A few questions:

Modern or ancient, Magical or Muggle, what ethics and mores do you find in this tale? Why do they matter to you; why should they matter to others?

Be we Magical or Muggle, as parents, what are our duties to our children? What are the consequences for our families, our communities, and our societies if we fail in those duties?

As parents, how do we deal with budding prejuidice in our children? Can we break the cycle before it’s too late?

The father failed, in his lifetime, to teach the lessons his son needed to learn such that they took. How much failure do we allow our next generation? How do we support them so they learn and grow from their failure?

Was JKR referring to Beatrix Potter when she wrote of Beatrix Bloxam and the Toadstool Tales? Why do you believe, so or not?

Feel free to add your own questions to the thread.


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The last enemy to be destroyed is death--
First Corinthians, Chapter 15, Verse 26
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Wandguardnoodle
post Jan 26 2009, 06:11 AM
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You've got a good point there, fidelia. However, I still like to look at the pot... er... as something not separate from the wizard. I would think that the pot is the part of the guy's mind that realises what is right, but the wizard simply doesn't want to listen to that part of his mind - don't we all sometimes do that?

This wizard kind of reminds me of Snape (as much as I hate that almost every discussion leads to him dry.gif ). Snape joins the good side 'cause he can't take the fact he led Voldemort to Lily and that's what Dumbledore asks (but still remains fascinated by dark arts and remains a git tongue.gif ); and this wizard starts doing good 'cause he can't take the pot banging at his heels.

So, I'm not really sure what to make of this tale anymore lol.gif Maybe it's saying that doing good should be (is?) part of our nature - kind of like a reflex or something - like a response to an external stimulus as you say. As for where the free will comes in - as we see from the examples in life and the HP books, one still can ignore one's conscience even if it's bounding out there - or maybe find a way to muffle it (even though the wizard in this tale wasn't successful in doing that - I mean, this is a tale to teach wizards' children to listen to their conscience and do good after all) ... er... not sure if that makes sense unsure.gif


This post has been edited by Wandguardnoodle: Jan 26 2009, 07:11 AM


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chloe squibbulus
post Jan 30 2009, 10:03 PM
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QUOTE(fidelia @ Jan 25 2009, 10:43 PM) *
I love all of the imagery of the Hopping Pot mentioned above! My question, though, is that if the Hopping Pot is indeed a sort of "traveling conscience" - how valuable is it really to have a conscious that hounds us into making the right decisions? Doesn't the Hopping Pot rather go against the concept of "Free Will?" If we make the right choice only because something (or somebody) else makes life intolerable for us if we don't, is there really any free will or growth involved? Does the person learn anything other than responding, in a Pavlovian type of way, to external stimulus? Whatever happened to the internal stirrings of conscience? Nah. In this tale, the only driving force is to quiet the Hopping Pot. We seem to be short on freedom to make choices, good and bad, and learn from them, in this tale.

I think you raise some interesting questions. I think some of them were answered nicely by Wandguardnoodle too
QUOTE(Wandguardnoodle @ Jan 26 2009, 07:11 AM) *
This wizard kind of reminds me of Snape (as much as I hate that almost every discussion leads to him dry.). Snape joins the good side 'cause he can't take the fact he led Voldemort to Lily and that's what Dumbledore asks (but still remains fascinated by dark arts and remains a git tongue.); and this wizard starts doing good 'cause he can't take the pot banging at his heels.

I think Snape is very much like this wizard in the Hopping Pot in certain respects. He is also hounded by a 'bad conscience.' Snape is improved by his bad conscience but it doesn't really make him into a wonderful person. The wizard in the Hopping Pot is quite selfish, he will never be as genuinely helpful as his father. But he is at least improved by a bad conscience...as was Snape. Whether or not it is a sort of Pavlovian response, it changes the behavior. Isn't a conscience largely just that we become aware that there are negative consequences to being selfish? It usually comes back to bite us when we are purely selfish, just like the Hopping Pot...so in that sense I think it IS Pavlovian. We change because we feel embarrassed, or hurt by social rejection or by the consequences of something that we caused to happen/or didn't help prevent, in our selfishness - it bites us emotionally, if not physically.

The wizard in the tale seems to be a very selfish person, and his father probably realized it. It is as though his father created an external conscience for his son, because he realized that he didn't have a very active internal one. He needed some Pavlovian training! But maybe the father was like him when he was young too and someone or something had to train him to be be less selfish as well. We just don't know. But Snape changed because fate bit him, Lily died because of his selfish power trip to rise up as a Death Eater. Even though it was an external thing that caused it, he internalized the external consequence and willingly changed his behavior.

It is similar with Dumbledore...his selfish games with Grindelwald caused his sister's death, and although the hurt was initially external, he also learned a lesson about selfishness....he internalized his hurt and developed a bad conscience, which stopped him from becoming a Voldemort!

I suppose I don't see a 'bad conscience' really being pitted against our 'free will.' If we go back to the Dumbledore case, Dumbledore made a very clear decision to mend his ways, and it was done of his own free will. I suppose I see conscience being one's sort of 'alter-ego' in some respects, although I think it is highly influenced by the culture in which one lives and by a Pavlovian cause and effect as well. There is always the one side of us that wants to be selfish - just to take and take and use and use and do nothing for others. Then there is the social pressure to have sympathy for others and to help people when they need help. On an internal level, even though it might be initiated by social pressure or physical or mental torment because of some consequence, there is usually a part of ourselves that can eventually see themselves in someone else's shoes. So when someone finally chooses to change their attitude and behavior, it isn't really a defeat of 'free will,' but more a defeat of 'selfishness.'

I think that a conscience is part of free will.

Viewing the Hopping Pot as totally an outside/social influence would go against the free will of someone who wanted to be completely selfish. But a conscience is really more internal. It is really the better half of one's free will, rather than its external enemy.

I can see why you say that the wizard doesn't seem to learn anything from the Hopping Pot in the story - even if his behavior is altered by it. It isn't clearly stated. But if you just look at the Pot as a symbol of his internal alter-ego, rather than an external annoyance, then it just seems to be the same mechanism that is at work in all of our consciences. But I do think that the wizard clearly exercises his free will to stop the Pot from annoying him.

I guess I just see the Hopping Pot as a symbol, rather than a literal annoying hopping pot. I think it was probably written as a metaphor.


This post has been edited by chloe squibbulus: Jan 30 2009, 10:08 PM


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Dreamteam
post Mar 4 2009, 08:22 AM
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As the Beedle the Bard forum is shortly going to close, we are going to move this discussion over to Great Wizarding Events to continue.

Enjoy posting wizard.gif


Dreamteam, LL Mod Manager


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November's book is The Catcher in the Rye by JD Salinger
"THEN YOU SHOULD HAVE DIED!" roared Black. "DIED RATHER THAN BETRAY YOUR FRIENDS,
AS WE WOULD HAVE DONE FOR YOU!"

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