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Wize Wizard Chat - July 19 Transcript, Talking to the Dead

Aislinn View Member Profile	Jul 19 2006, 08:05 PM Post #1
Chief Cat Herder Posts: 3,514 Joined: 10:28am August 6, 2005 Location: In the Corner Booth - home of the elusive Holy Grain!	[18:59] * Aislinn has joined #lounge [18:59] * iluvharry has joined #lounge [19:00] * Snuffles changed the topic to: Talking to the Dead (Aislinn) [19:00] * harryfreak359 has joined #lounge [19:00] <magicmeg8> Hey guys smile [19:00] <harryfreak359> Hey everyone! [19:00] <iluvharry> hello [19:00] <harryfreak359> hey meg! [19:00] <harryfreak359> I am so glad I was able to make today [19:01] <Aislinn> happy Wed. everyone! [19:01] * Poet has joined #lounge [19:01] <Aislinn> oops, need my color [19:01] <iluvharry> happy wednesday to you too [19:01] <harryfreak359> happy Wed. Aislinn! [19:02] * gingin77 has joined #lounge [19:02] <Poet> Think I'll use blue. Let there be Corner Booth on earth...and let it begin with me... [19:02] <gingin77> Hello [19:02] <Aislinn> lol, sarah! [19:02] <iluvharry> hello [19:02] <harryfreak359> hey [19:02] * elizabethsprague has joined #lounge [19:03] <Poet> The next couple of Wednesdays I unfortunately won't get the chance to come to the Corner Booth due to being out of town. [19:03] <gingin77> awww [19:03] <Poet> Looking forward to this evening's discussion. [19:03] <gingin77> no fun [19:03] <Aislinn> not unfortunately for you, though biggrin [19:03] <harryfreak359> me too [19:03] <gingin77> same here [19:03] <elizabethsprague> good evning all [19:03] <iluvharry> good evening to you [19:03] <magicmeg8> Aw, ok Poet [19:03] <Aislinn> as we usually do, we'll give folks a chance to get here, and begin the discussion in a little bit [19:03] <gingin77> good evening [19:03] <Poet> I'm sure I'll find something fun to do those nights to make up for it. [19:04] <Aislinn> hi elizabeth [19:04] <harryfreak359> good evening! [19:04] * HPMommy has joined #lounge [19:04] <gingin77> HOPE [19:04] <gingin77> hay [19:04] <harryfreak359> actually it more like afternoon here [19:04] <HPMommy> CAMIE! [19:04] <gingin77> squeee how are you [19:04] *** Ginny-From-A-Bottle has joined #lounge [19:04] <HPMommy> Fab and you? [19:04] <gingin77> good [19:04] <Aislinn> hey Ginbot! [19:04] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Hi Aislinn! [19:05] <elizabethsprague> how is everone [19:05] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Meg - all [19:05] <Aislinn> hot! [19:05] <gingin77> every time i see people call ginbot ginbot i see this robot ginny in my head and it makes me laugh [19:05] <gingin77> lol [19:05] <iluvharry> lol [19:05] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> LOL [19:05] <magicmeg8> hey G-FAB [19:05] <Aislinn> lol [19:05] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> I am kind of bot-like smile [19:05] <iluvharry> lol [19:05] <harryfreak359> lol [19:05] <elizabethsprague> it is good to have this [19:05] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> I run on autopilot a lot [19:05] <iluvharry> lol [19:05] <gingin77> i think everyone does every once in a while [19:06] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> don't know what I'm doing/where I'm going half the time [19:06] <iluvharry> yeah [19:06] <harryfreak359> i know that feeling [19:06] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> like that bot in Hitchhikers' [19:06] <iluvharry> lol [19:06] <gingin77> Marvin [19:06] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Thanks! [19:06] <gingin77> i <3 marvin [19:06] <harryfreak359> mostly because i have my nose in a book and am just wondering around [19:06] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> he's an awesomely stupid character [19:06] <Poet> So does everyone who participates this evening get a complimentary Mirror of Erised to take home with them? [19:06] <harryfreak359> lol [19:06] <HPMommy> Awesome [19:06] <magicmeg8> haha. they should [19:06] <Aislinn> lol [19:06] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Yay! [19:06] <gingin77> like totaly...we shold [19:06] <gingin77> should* [19:07] <iluvharry> we should [19:07] <HPMommy> Hmm, what do I desire? [19:07] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> I know I'm going to see a big fat air conditioning unit [19:07] <Poet> I know what you mean G-Bot. Most of the time I just find myself on LL and don't know how I got here? [19:07] <gingin77> um.. Jo tickets [19:07] <iluvharry> i desire the seventh book to be out [19:07] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> LOL P!!!! [19:07] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> I am so behind in my PMs! [19:07] <gingin77> lol P [19:07] <harryfreak359> lol poet [19:07] <HPMommy> I like that one Harry [19:07] <iluvharry> thanks [19:07] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> I see one there from you I think [19:08] <Aislinn> that's what I would see in the mirror too, ginbot! [19:08] <elizabethsprague> not shor i hear maby next july mabe [19:08] * Professor_Nigellus has joined #lounge [19:08] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> My A/C gave up the ghost at the end of last summer [19:08] * Winky05 has joined #lounge [19:08] <Aislinn> ugh - and its horrendously hot right now [19:08] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> I'm looking to getting a portable one this time [19:08] <harryfreak359> it is here too [19:08] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> have been putting it off because of nice weather [19:08] <gingin77> yeah it is really hot.. and humid where i am [19:08] * SirCadogan has joined #lounge [19:08] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> now it's 40C [19:09] <iluvharry> it is super hot here [19:09] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> here too gingin [19:09] <harryfreak359> 111F here [19:09] * SirCadogan has quit [Bye] [19:09] <Aislinn> ummm, never good at the conversion [19:09] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> yikes Harry! [19:09] <elizabethsprague> it got up to 95 whar i live [19:09] <Aislinn> its in the 90'sF here [19:09] <gingin77> 90's f here [19:09] <Poet> I am doing the happy dance because I live on the first floor and have a nice cool place to enjoy my computer [19:09] <iluvharry> lol [19:09] <gingin77> lol.. im on the bottom floor of my house... very cold [19:09] <harryfreak359> we don't have much humidity tho [19:09] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> throws lawn darts at Poet [19:10] <harryfreak359> only 16% [19:10] <Aislinn> lol [19:10] <Poet> I think it's only 100 here - feels like temp is higher I'm sure [19:10] <harryfreak359> it usually feels lower here [19:10] <gingin77> the sun is setting here now and its 88 [19:10] <Aislinn> wow, our humidity is rediculous compared to that harryfreak [19:10] <harryfreak359> gotta love the Valley of the Sun--it's dry heat [19:10] <iluvharry> humidity is pretty high here [19:10] <Poet> catched lawn darts and starts a game to take the place of the Leaky Arcade* [19:10] <gingin77> our humidity is really bad here [19:10] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Are you on a Great Lake, Aislinn? [19:10] <elizabethsprague> well that is life [19:11] <Aislinn> upstate NY [19:11] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> LOL Poet!! [19:11] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> I'm glad the arcade is down [19:11] <Aislinn> not on a lake, unfortunately [19:11] * Winky05 has quit [Bye] [19:11] <elizabethsprague> i live in michigan [19:11] <harryfreak359> lake have lots of bugs [19:11] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> I went out with top scores in about 5 categories [19:11] * Wizardmom has joined #lounge [19:11] <elizabethsprague> i live in michigan [19:11] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Eliz - you must be getting the humidity too [19:11] <gingin77> Jersey here [19:11] <elizabethsprague> yes i am [19:11] <iluvharry> kentucky [19:12] <harryfreak359> Arizona here [19:12] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> I'm about 10 km away from Lake Ontario - it's very humid [19:12] <elizabethsprague> it 85 right now [19:12] <gingin77> hope hows the heat with you [19:12] <Professor_Nigellus> Hi gingin77. I'm in Jersey too [19:12] <gingin77> hey... [19:12] <Aislinn> I'm near 2 rivers, so we get more than enough humidity too [19:13] * Narya has joined #lounge [19:13] <gingin77> my town is an island, we are surrounded by a creek..... and we are like 5 miles from the delaware river..... humid [19:13] <Aislinn> hi narya! [19:13] <elizabethsprague> my cusin lives in boltimor it got up to 100 today [19:13] <Poet> Oh no- tropical storm watch for the East Coast. Bad weather go away! [19:13] <DorisTLC> Wow - it's hot everywhere! [19:14] <iluvharry> lol [19:14] <elizabethsprague> LOL [19:14] <DorisTLC> Our heat index in South Texas today was 112 [19:14] <harryfreak359> I'm pretty much in the middle of the desert [19:14] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Yep P - my parents are likely going to get hit with it [19:14] <harryfreak359> you live in texas doris? [19:14] <gingin77> Tropical storm... may take the humidity away for a little bit... [19:14] <Narya> It was 90F here today - almost unheard of ... [19:14] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> whatever hits Boston usually hits them within 48 hours [19:14] <iluvharry> i pretty much live in the middle of nowhere [19:14] <Poet> Okay, it's only 97 but the feels like temp is 111. [19:14] <Wizardmom> Hello wize wizards!!! lol [19:14] * Wizardmom has quit [Bye] [19:14] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> I don't know farenheit at all sorry sad [19:15] <Narya> roughly 30C biggrin [19:15] <elizabethsprague> i do beleve we are off topic [19:15] <harryfreak359> I used to live in texas, so I am no stranger to humidity--boy, I don't miss it [19:15] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> ah - okay [19:15] <gingin77> i dont think we have started the topic yet have we? [19:15] <iluvharry> no [19:15] <harryfreak359> no [19:15] <Aislinn> We will be starting the discussion in a few minutes. You’re not going to be able to type for a few minutes while we make some announcements, please bear with us, you’ll be able to type again soon [19:15] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> I know whatever it is, it's warm [19:15] <Aislinn> There may be times during the chat when a moderator will want to PM something to you. Please keep an eye on the top of your screen, right next to the button with #Lounge on it. A button will appear with one of the mods' names on it. If you see that appear, click on it to see the PM that has been sent to you by that mod [19:15] <Aislinn> You won’t be able to reply to that PM, but if you could just say something like “Meg got it” in the main chat, to let us know that you have seen it, that will be great. [19:16] <Aislinn> If you need to contact us during the chat, send one, or all, of us a PM on the Lounge. We will be checking them regularly, but if we haven't replied after a little while then please let us know here that you have sent a PM. Thanks for your cooperation! [19:16] <Aislinn> The transcript of this chat will be available shortly after we finish. It will be posted in our new Corner Booth Forum: http://www.leakylounge.com/Corner-Booth-f184.html .There is also a poll there where you can vote on next weeks Wize Wizard Chat: http://www.leakylounge.com/forums.html#entry886648 [19:16] * HPMommy has quit [Bye] [19:16] <Aislinn> Dumbledore tells us in the GoF that there is no bringing someone back from the dead. Despite this finality, the divide between the living and the dead does not seem as clear in the books as it is in real life [19:17] <Aislinn> Ghosts roam the school, and portraits of dead people gather information and hold conversations with the living. Voices were heard just beyond the veil, which we later learn is a place of death. Let's discuss the contact that the living have with the dead in HP. [19:18] <magicmeg8> To start off, let's discuss this question: Why are ghosts included in the series; what purpose do they have? [19:18] <elizabethsprague> like angles [19:19] * Expelliarmas has joined #lounge [19:19] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> like guardians Eliz? Is that what you mean? [19:19] <gingin77> Ghosts.... I see them as another example of choices. You choose whether or not to be a ghost determined on your fear of death. [19:19] <Aislinn> and we're back to all chat! biggrin [19:19] <harryfreak359> I first they just added to the magic like feel of the books [19:19] <iluvharry> thats what i thought [19:19] <harryfreak359> but they seem to have more of an involvement than just that [19:19] <iluvharry> yeah [19:19] <elizabethsprague> i have a few off them whith me at all times [19:19] <elizabethsprague> gardens [19:20] <Poet> Hogwarts is a magical place, so ghosts freely converse with the living and it is not a scary thing - just normal. [19:20] <harryfreak359> yeah poet [19:20] <elizabethsprague> so trou [19:20] <elizabethsprague> troe [19:20] <elizabethsprague> sorry [19:20] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Yes - and I think NH Nick suggested, in OotP that only wizards can become ghosts [19:20] <Aislinn> Nearly Headless Nick has been another source of information of the history of the school for the trio [19:20] <Expelliarmas> Does one become a ghost simply from fear of death or because of unfinished business? [19:21] <Poet> There are another way of course to bring information to the audience. [19:21] <gingin77> I believe that Nick said it was a choice [19:21] <iluvharry> probably unfinished business too [19:21] <Narya> A bit of both, I think [19:21] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Sounds like that's accurate, Expel, according to Nick [19:21] <harryfreak359> i think from the impression of the books it is the fear of death but it might be a bit of both [19:21] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> he suggests he became a ghost because he was too afraid to move on [19:21] <Aislinn> right [19:21] <harryfreak359> exactly GFAB [19:21] <Expelliarmas> Myrtle came back because she wanted to get even with Olive Hornby, right? [19:21] <Narya> For some ghosts, that's true [19:21] <elizabethsprague> well gost are every whare we look we gust cant see them at lest most of us [19:21] <gingin77> Yeah ginbot.... i was just looking for the quote too [19:21] <iluvharry> right [19:22] <harryfreak359> yeah that is the example of unfinished business [19:22] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> It's in OotP [19:22] * Wizardmom has joined #lounge [19:22] <Poet> Ghosts have a wisdom that Harry as a first or second year student simply doesn't have at his finger tips to give us. The story is from his point of view so as many adults interacting with him as possible is helpful to furthering the plot. [19:22] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> the last or second last chap [19:22] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> if memory serves [19:22] <harryfreak359> yeah something like that GFAB [19:22] <harryfreak359> i'm looking [19:22] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Good point, Poet! [19:23] <Narya> "He will not come back ... He will have ... gone on" [19:23] <Narya> Is that it? [19:23] <iluvharry> yeah [19:23] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> yes - that's the one Narya [19:23] <magicmeg8> Hi Wizardmom, we're talking about the purpose of ghosts in HP [19:23] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> but then Nick further elaborates as to his own situation [19:23] <harryfreak359> It was the last chapter GFAB [19:23] <Wizardmom> hiya e1, glad to make it [19:24] <Professor_Nigellus> Is there something about Hogwarts favorable to goasts? We have never seen one in Diagon Alley. [19:24] <Expelliarmas> Nor at the MOM. [19:24] <iluvharry> hmmm good point [19:24] <Aislinn> that's a good question, professor [19:24] * SnapesPrincess has joined #lounge [19:24] <harryfreak359> maybe they can'tbe see in the daylight so htey stay in buildings [19:24] <Narya> "I was afraid of death ... I chose to remain behind ... I know nothing of the secrets of death, Harry, for I chose my feeble imitation of life instead" [19:24] <Narya> Interesting ... [19:24] <iluvharry> yeah [19:24] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> I believe Myrtle went there after the ministry convinced her to stop bugging... what's her name... the girl -- Olive? [19:24] <Aislinn> so it does sound like fear [19:24] <Narya> On Nick's part, yeah [19:25] <Expelliarmas> Olive Hornby rued the day she made fun of Myrtle's glasses! [19:25] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> yes Expel [19:25] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> lol [19:25] <harryfreak359> lol [19:25] * iluvharry left #lounge [] [19:25] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> they had to prise myrtle away from her [19:25] <Wizardmom> I wonder if all the ghosts feel like Nick, were they all afraid of death? And what did they fear? [19:25] <Aislinn> and Myrtle was not prepared to move on given her age, the suddenness of her death, and her psyche at that time [19:25] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> myrtle's ghost, that is [19:25] <gingin77> Nick said that it was a path that could be chosen... "Wizards can leave an imprint of themselves upon the Earth, to walk palely where their living selves once trod, but very few wizards choose this path" pg 861 am. softcover [19:26] * ofenjen has joined #lounge [19:26] <Poet> Hogwarts is a pleasant place with lots of room to roam? They feel at home because they spent so much of their life there? [19:26] <magicmeg8> Hello, ofenjen -- we're discussing ghosts in HP [19:26] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Yes P - agreed [19:26] <Narya> And don't want to let go [19:26] <Narya> Too afraid of what lies ahead [19:26] <ofenjen> excellent, I'll listen in and see if I can catch up! [19:26] <harryfreak359> yeah Narya [19:26] <Narya> And regretting what lies behind [19:26] <Expelliarmas> Don't want to let go of what? They are not alive, but they are not dead. They only get to look on. It truly is a pale imitation of life. [19:27] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> the land of the living Expel [19:27] <Narya> Don't want to let go of what they had - their life [19:27] <gingin77> Nick said that he was afraid to move on, not that all ghosts were [19:27] * elizabethsprague has quit [Bye] [19:27] <Aislinn> they have their own sort of sub-society within the castle, as we saw at the deathday party [19:27] <Poet> I wonder if the ghosts get lonely too and enjoy having a big place like Hogwarts where they can interact without people feeling like they are being bothered or stalked. [19:27] <Narya> that's true [19:27] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> it's the only thing they know - they're too afraid to move into the unknown [19:27] <SnapesPrincess> I wonder if you could stop being a ghost if you wanted to [19:27] <harryfreak359> yes, but when one is scared of death the thought of being on earth forever could be comforting [19:27] <Expelliarmas> But they did let go of their lives, they can't eat, breath, etc. [19:27] <magicmeg8> I think they do enjoy having that interaction, Poet [19:27] <Aislinn> finally decide to pass into the light, snapesprincess? [19:27] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Snape - I think there's no going back once you've chosen a ghostie afterlife [19:27] <Narya> Because they died - that was outwith their control [19:28] <SnapesPrincess> trying to catch up [19:28] <gingin77> Nick wonders if it was the right decsion, it seems thought that comment that you may not be able to stop being a ghost [19:28] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Nick expresses regret for his 'decision' [19:28] <Narya> yes, he does [19:28] <harryfreak359> yes he does [19:28] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> so the suggestion is that the choice is a final one but it's still a choice [19:28] <Aislinn> it does seem to be just a shadow of a life [19:28] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> just one that's irreversible [19:28] <Narya> I feel quite sad for Nick, in a way [19:28] <Expelliarmas> So what happens if a ghost goes through the veil? [19:29] <Poet> Yes, and there ARE ghosts that come from other parts of the countryside. [19:29] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> no one knows Expel [19:29] * Whisperwing has joined #lounge [19:29] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> hence Nick's hesitation [19:29] <gingin77> oh that is great question expell [19:29] <Aislinn> hi whisperwing [19:29] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> once beyond the veil there is no coming back [19:29] <Aislinn> we're talking about ghosts right now [19:29] <harryfreak359> hey whisperwing! [19:29] <Expelliarmas> would the ghost be able to return from the veil as they are not dead or alive? [19:29] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> so there is no way for anyone to tell those making a choice what it's like [19:29] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> if that makes sense [19:29] <SnapesPrincess> back to what though? he's already a ghost [19:29] <Whisperwing> Though apparently communication's not entirely out [19:29] <Narya> yes, they can go wherever they please [19:29] <gingin77> Well, if there is no return from the veil.. then a ghost that goes through might be able to get to an afterlife of some sort [19:30] <Whisperwing> hiya hf [19:30] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> but beyond the veil - are their ghosts? [19:30] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> can we assume that? [19:30] <Poet> Exactly my questions Expelliarmas - about the veil. [19:30] <gingin77> unless the veil is an abyss of the people who fell through it and not really the portal to death at all [19:30] <Narya> interesting thought [19:30] <harryfreak359> we don't know we can only assume [19:30] <Whisperwing> Ghosts on this side, spirits on the other. [19:30] <Narya> I think it's a gateway ... [19:30] <Expelliarmas> do ghosts have souls? [19:30] <magicmeg8> Why would JKR show us a Deathday party? [19:30] <Whisperwing> Ask Derek Acorah [19:30] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> I would think so Expel [19:30] <Narya> If they have been good whilst alive, then yes [19:30] * Wizardmom has quit [Bye] [19:30] <gingin77> Arnt ghosts imprints of a departed soul? [19:30] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> I think the soul would be a great portion of what makes up a ghost [19:31] <Expelliarmas> If they are just an imprint, an imitation of their former selves, do they retain the soul? [19:31] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> I mean if you speak in real life terms... [19:31] <Aislinn> I think so too ginbot [19:31] <Narya> Its essence [19:31] <Whisperwing> A ghost manifests while a spirit cannot [19:31] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> what occurs at death? [19:31] <Expelliarmas> GBOT there's the $64 question! [19:31] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> the only change is that consciousness moves on [19:31] <Aislinn> I think the deathday party was a fascinating peak into the world the ghosts create for themselves [19:31] <ofenjen> Is it possible that a ghost is similar to the headmaster's portraits? The essence of the person, just another variation on a theme? [19:31] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> is the soul consciousness? [19:31] <Expelliarmas> Actually, that should have been GFAB, there's the $64 question. [19:31] <Whisperwing> What was that movie called, 14 grams? That's supposed to be the measurable amount of mass lost at death [19:31] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> it's the life force ... [19:31] <gingin77> Thats what i was thinking ofen [19:32] <Narya> I think they're different, ofenjen [19:32] <gingin77> brb... dinner time [19:32] <magicmeg8> I agree, Ann. And we saw that there are certain parts of life they clearly miss -- food, for instance. [19:32] <Whisperwing> While portraits can clearly eat and drink any time they feel like it -- and get hangovers. [19:32] <Aislinn> good point whisperwing [19:32] <harryfreak359> yeah [19:32] <Poet> Meg. I'm at a loss about why we saw the Deathday party. [19:33] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Good question Whisperwing - sorry for the delay/lag [19:33] <Narya> A way of the ghosts clinging on to what they knew in their lives [19:33] <Aislinn> including have clubs that exclude people [19:33] <Narya> Except grotesque, because of the rotting food [19:33] <ofenjen> I think the deathday party was to introduce Moaning Myrtle [19:33] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Maybe the deathday party was in part to show the difference between poltergeist and ghost? [19:33] <Expelliarmas> Is an existence where you can't use any of your senses really worth living? Is that what Nick misses? [19:33] <magicmeg8> Yes, it's not quite clear to me, either, Poet -- it seemed sort of random in CoS [19:33] <ofenjen> And to get them in the wrong place at the right time for the chamber message [19:33] <Whisperwing> But that does mean they have senses after a fashion, that they can feel and smell and whatnot [19:33] <magicmeg8> Oh, good point, ofengen [19:33] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> or to give a bit of background on myrtle? [19:34] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> we don't get much, though [19:34] <Aislinn> I think that's an excellent point expel [19:34] <Whisperwing> so it's a different level of existence, somewhere between being dead and being alive [19:34] * Winky05 has joined #lounge [19:34] <Narya> I think Nick misses being human, and feels excluded from the world of the dead [19:34] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Well, we see that ghosts certainly have feelings/emotions [19:34] <harryfreak359> yeah Narya [19:34] <magicmeg8> Definitely, GFAB. [19:34] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Nick expresses them as does myrtle [19:34] <Aislinn> which seems to reinforce the thought that there is soul in the ghost [19:34] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> but as for physical senses [19:34] <Expelliarmas> Nick is shown as something of a social wannabe who manages to get upstaged by Sir-Properly-Decapitated-What-His-Name. [19:35] <Poet> The Deathday party was of course good fun and a way to get Harry away from the rest of the castle. Ofenjen - that is billiant. [19:35] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> they appear to have none - so maybe ghostihood is sort of a half life deal [19:35] <ofenjen> I think the ghosts retain their personalities in death. Think of Myrtle and how weepy she is. I bet Nick felt a bit sorry for himself and left out in life as well. [19:35] <Narya> The Fat Friar seems to be pretty cheerful [19:35] <harryfreak359> yeah probably does [19:35] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Yes ofenjen - definitely [19:35] <Expelliarmas> Myrtle isn't weepy, she's a drama ghost. [19:35] <ofenjen> Exactly [19:35] <Narya> The Baron has never stopped being scary! [19:35] <magicmeg8> True, Narya, though we don't know much about her [19:35] <magicmeg8> him [19:35] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> LOL expel [19:35] <ofenjen> LOL, no doubt! [19:35] <harryfreak359> i don't think he's scary at all! [19:35] <Narya> I do ... because of his mystery [19:36] <Whisperwing> And the whole covered in blood thing [19:36] harrypotterfan123 has joined #lounge [19:36] <ofenjen> Wonder if we'll ever find out what those blood stains are about... [19:36] <harryfreak359> well, i think i just push him to the side because he doesn't interest me [19:36] <Narya> And the clanking around on the Astronomy Tower ... why? [19:36] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> I think ofenjen, it's a combo [19:36] <Whisperwing> Probably not [19:36] <Narya> And why at that point? [19:36] <Aislinn> I wondered if the bloody axe in the RoR had to do with the Bloody Baron [19:36] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Baron strikes me as another count... [19:36] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> er - the Dracula guy in real life [19:36] * Poet has quit [Bye] [19:36] <harryfreak359> it relaxes him, Narya [19:36] * Poet has joined #lounge [19:37] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Count Vlad?? [19:37] <Narya> I wonder if he died of natural causes ...# [19:37] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> doubt it Narya [19:37] <Narya> I don't think he's relaxed [19:37] <harryfreak359> lol [19:37] <Narya> I think he's restless [19:37] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> he was likely a mass murderer [19:37] <harryfreak359> more likely [19:37] <Expelliarmas> Do any of the ghosts die of natural causes? It seems like death was sudden. [19:37] <Narya> I don't think he was [19:37] <Poet> And the Deathday party of course is another confirmation to us that there IS a life after death in the Harry Potter world. Nick confirms it. [19:37] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> no? [19:37] <magicmeg8> Well, they are definitely an important part of the wizarding world -- of Hogwarts at least. [19:37] <Narya> no [19:37] <Narya> Just an instinct [19:37] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> I always got the impression he was [19:38] * SnapesPrincess left #lounge [] [19:38] <harryfreak359> i didn't [19:38] * CallMeSeverus has joined #lounge [19:38] <Aislinn> well, it doesn't sound like Nick's was all that sudden, but it was violent [19:38] <Narya> I think he has more to tell, but I'm not sure if there will be time! [19:38] <Expelliarmas> It seems the sudden death is an element to becoming a ghost. If they had more time to reflect, would they chose the ghost's existence? [19:38] <harryfreak359> yeah aislinn, [19:38] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Yes - agree Narya [19:38] <magicmeg8> That's a possibility, Expel -- though I'm sure Nick had time to think about his punishment before he was nearly decapitated [19:38] <Narya> I don't think they'd want to be ghosts .. that's a good point, Expell [19:38] * Pleshette has joined #lounge [19:39] <Poet> Expelliarmus, you're likely correct. Those that die of old age are probably looking forward to moving on. [19:39] <Aislinn> hi pleshette [19:39] <Expelliarmas> Nick's death was from a death sentence, right? Unlicensed practice of dentistry? [19:39] <magicmeg8> What was your first impression at the mention of ghosts in the books? [19:39] <Aislinn> we're talking about ghosts right now [19:39] <harryfreak359> Yeah poet [19:39] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Yes - agree w/Narya expel - good point [19:39] <Pleshette> Hi Ais! [19:39] <Narya> His was a botched death [19:39] <harryfreak359> just something magical to add to the story [19:39] <ofenjen> I think it's another way to show that being "immortal" isn't everything it's cracked up to be [19:39] <Narya> I liked the ghosts at the feast in PS [19:39] <gingin77> Has the topic changed yet from ghosts? [19:39] <Winky05> I still don't understand why some of the characters became ghosts and others do not. Can someone explain that to me? [19:39] <CallMeSeverus> I think there are real people who would choose to be a ghost -- simply because they fear Death and the Unknown of what lies beyond -- but if they had time to think about it (and I mean REALLY think about it) the would change their minds [19:39] <Aislinn> I thought it set a certain image of Hogwarts being unlike the muggle world [19:39] <Expelliarmas> ofenjen, what a great point! [19:39] <Narya> Ghosts fear death [19:40] <Poet> Ooo...great thought ofenjen! [19:40] <magicmeg8> We're looking at what we thought of when first presented with ghosts in the books, came [19:40] <magicmeg8> camie [19:40] <Narya> Winky05 - those who do not fear death, go on [19:40] <gingin77> ogenjen awesome thought... thanks meg [19:40] <Poet> ...immortal being not all it is cracked up to be [19:40] harrypotterfan123 has quit [Bye] [19:40] <magicmeg8> smile [19:40] <Narya> those who do, try to stay behind [19:40] <Expelliarmas> What was DD's thought about death, to the well-organized mind it's the next great adventure? [19:40] <Winky05> thanks [19:40] <Narya> np smile [19:40] <Aislinn> well, dumbledore tells us something about death, for the well prepared mind, being the next great adventure right? [19:40] <CallMeSeverus> Exactly, Expell [19:40] <Narya> DD didn't fear death [19:41] <Aislinn> so the folks who end up ghosts are maybe not prepared [19:41] <harryfreak359> yeah [19:41] <Expelliarmas> DD would not come back as a ghost. [19:41] <gingin77> So therefore he will not end up a ghost. [19:41] <harryfreak359> possibly aislinn [19:41] <CallMeSeverus> not in possession of a well-organized mind [19:41] <Narya> that would be a travesty of the books if he did [19:41] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> yes - agree - no ghost for DD; he won't come back [19:41] <Aislinn> I really doubt JKR would make Dumbledore a ghost [19:41] <Winky05> didn't he go into a picture in book six [19:41] <Narya> yes [19:42] <Narya> sleeping in his portrait [19:42] <Expelliarmas> So then, the Potters and Sirius were "prepared" for death? The Potters at least knew they were being hunted and so knew of the possibility. If you're an order member, you expect death as well? [19:42] * HeleneB has joined #lounge [19:42] <Narya> in Minerva's office [19:42] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> tries to resist Soup Nazi directive: no ghost for you--come back--one year! [19:42] <Aislinn> lol [19:42] <gingin77> No not from his statements about death.. he has no fear of death... i see no true unfinished business on his part, he seemed prepared for it almost [19:42] <Narya> comes with the territory as an Order member [19:42] <ofenjen> The Potters and Sirius weren't afraid to die. Sirius had already made a will, etc. [19:42] <harryfreak359> Sirius wasn't afraid of death that was why he didn't become a ghost [19:42] <magicmeg8> I think we've done a great job looking at ghosts, let's move onto portraits: What is actually IN a portrait of the dead that makes them able to talk? Part of their soul? An impression of their most extreme qualities? [19:42] <harryfreak359> magic! [19:43] <Narya> An impression of what they were in life, I think ... [19:43] <gingin77> thanks harry [19:43] <Expelliarmas> so true, Sirius did make a will. [19:43] <HeleneB> I think our information on this is conflicted. [19:43] <Aislinn> I don't think its a part of their soul [19:43] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> yes Narya - a capture of the personality, but sans soul [19:43] <Narya> yes [19:43] <gingin77> yeah i think the portrat is just an impression of the person [19:43] <gingin77> not an actual part of soul [19:43] <Winky05> But, their still ghosts in the portraits right or not? [19:43] <Narya> although - a touch of humour from one or two of them!! [19:43] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> sort of like an artists interpretation in the real world portraits [19:43] <Narya> not [19:43] <Narya> different, Winky05 [19:43] <Whisperwing> No they're not ghosts any more than photographs are ghosts [19:43] <CallMeSeverus> I don't think it could really "think" or "make decisions" [19:43] <HeleneB> JK has said it's an impression and they only spew out comments like the original might have said, yet Phineas Nigellus acted much more strongly than a "recording" [19:44] <Whisperwing> Very true [19:44] <Aislinn> even the photographs capture a little bit of the personality of the person being photographed - the portraits seem like that, but in a more extreme manner [19:44] * gingin77 has quit [Bye] [19:44] <Narya> yet - the ones who talk are appealing in their portraits [19:44] <ofenjen> I think the headmasters are an exception and have some stronger magic at work. [19:44] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> It seems as if they hold some sort of intelligence - some sort of AI [19:44] <CallMeSeverus> Well, we didn't get to see Nigellus iin life... maybe he did have his moments [19:44] * DorisTLC has quit [Bye] [19:44] <Narya> I'm sure he did [19:44] * gingin77 has joined #lounge [19:44] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> but not human intelligence [19:44] <Expelliarmas> what about Sirius whacko Mom? [19:44] <Pleshette> They do have the ability to travel to another portrait [19:44] <HeleneB> She definitely sounds like what JK described. [19:44] <Narya> She's a pretty virulent portrait [19:45] <gingin77> yeah the portrats we are used to seeing seem to have personalities and the ability to make decisions at times [19:45] <Narya> in death as in life [19:45] <Aislinn> yeah, helene, I didn't really understand why Jo said that, as they seem much more than just recordings [19:45] <harryfreak359> she doesn't seem to travel into portrait other than hers [19:45] <HeleneB> But it sounds like the same old stuff, yet she recognizes Sirius when she sees him. [19:45] * CallMeSeverus has quit [Bye] [19:45] <Expelliarmas> whacko Mom seemed to become progressively more insane after spending so much time alone with Kreacher. [19:45] <Narya> Because she disliked him [19:45] <ofenjen> Is there a difference between a "painting" and a "portrait?" [19:45] <harryfreak359> i don't think so [19:45] <Narya> yes, I think there is [19:45] <Expelliarmas> Whacko Mom shouldn't travel. Period. [19:45] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> hmmm - good question ofenjen [19:45] <HeleneB> Narya--disliked Sirius or Kreacher? [19:46] <Narya> Sirius [19:46] <Whisperwing> I'm supposing why Jo said what she did was to circumvent suggestions that whoever was in the portrait could be ressurected through their portraits. [19:46] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> I wonder if there is [19:46] <Aislinn> the headmasters and headmistresses are able to move between their portraits, gather information, pass information on, seemingly talk strategy with dumbledore [19:46] <gingin77> Like Sirius's mom is able to scream and yell and understand who is around her, the fat lady understands her suroundings when Sirius attacked, Cadoggan was able to answer McGonagalls questions, and Sirius's great whatever was able to check his other portrats and report to dumbledore [19:46] <Aislinn> seems pretty active to me [19:46] <magicmeg8> I was thinking that as well, Whisper [19:46] <HeleneB> There must be a differece between portraits and pictures, otherwise Harry's pictures of his folks would talk to him [19:46] <Pleshette> I agree Aislenn [19:46] <gingin77> they seem to be able to understand what is going on around them [19:46] <Narya> there definitely is a difference [19:46] <Pleshette> Phineas travels from DD office to GP [19:46] <magicmeg8> I agree, Helene. [19:46] <Aislinn> right gingin [19:46] <HeleneB> I agree, Aislinn [19:46] <Narya> they seem more sentient, for a start [19:46] <gingin77> i dont know if they can retain infromation, but they are able to pass it on [19:47] <ofenjen> Possibly painted portraits were "real" people and that's the difference? [19:47] <Expelliarmas> The photographs do not speak, at least none of the pictures in the daily prophet do. Maybe they just do a momentary capture, while the portrait requires a sitting? [19:47] <magicmeg8> Sort of, a conscious decision to have a portrait made and put part of one inside it (in some sense) rather than in a snapshot or random painting [19:47] <Whisperwing> Possibly it's a form of Transfiguration [19:47] <Aislinn> phineas nigellus reacted emotionally, if in a muted way, to the news that his nephew had died [19:47] <Narya> yes, although Sir Cadogan was probably real [19:47] <Pleshette> They certainly have a personalitly [19:47] <Whisperwing> like Ron's Wizard Chess pieces have opinions about how to be played [19:47] <HeleneB> Lots of personality! [19:47] <gingin77> Yes they do show emotion.. the fat lady showed fear [19:48] <Winky05> Did DD have a portrait before he died too? Was it just sitting on the wall empty? I'm confused sorry everyone [19:48] <Aislinn> and she gets drunk [19:48] <Narya> no, Winky [19:48] <HeleneB> :D [19:48] <gingin77> good point aslinn [19:48] * Poet has quit [Bye] [19:48] * Poet has joined #lounge [19:48] <gingin77> Portrats seem to be able to make decissions [19:48] <HeleneB> That one makes me laugh. How can a portrait get drunk on painted wine. That JK! [19:48] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> yes gin - and carry out directives [19:48] <Poet> The most we have heard is a photo squeeling when broken by Sirius in Book 5. [19:48] <Narya> :D good one, HeleneB! [19:48] <Expelliarmas> and the headmaster portraits are sworn to give assistence to the current headmaster. [19:49] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> it appears the paintings in the headmasters office also acts as counsel to current HM [19:49] <magicmeg8> Well, we don't know if the paintings we see in Hogwarts are of actual people. [19:49] <harryfreak359> they probably are [19:49] <HeleneB> And the headmaster portraits chastise other portraits if they think they're not doing their duty [19:49] <Aislinn> right ginbot, which suggests problem solving or logic [19:49] <Expelliarmas> Why wouldn't the paintings within Hogwarts be of real people, they sure have enough personality for it. [19:49] <gingin77> well we know the headmaster portraits are of real people [19:49] * michpotter has joined #lounge [19:49] <Narya> Some of them are, I think [19:50] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> yes helene! 'insubordination, sir!! [19:50] <Narya> Others are just myths and legends [19:50] <HeleneB> When JK was asked about the portraits being of dead people she said the ones we've seen are. [19:50] <Expelliarmas> What I think of myths and legends, might be real in the magical world. [19:50] <Narya> might have been [19:50] <harryfreak359> maybe Expel [19:50] <gingin77> so.. we should be able to assume from that that caddogan the fat lady were real people at one time [19:50] <Narya> Probably JKR's slant on what happened [19:51] <michpotter> i think the fat lady probably was a real person [19:51] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> it sounds like it gingin [19:51] <Narya> I think Sir Cadogan was real ... he reminds me of a mediaeval knight [19:51] <Aislinn> I think that it is very possible they were real people [19:51] <ofenjen> Yeah Narya, from Monty Python... [19:51] <Narya> The Fat Lady reminds me of a bossy housekeeper [19:51] <harryfreak359> i think so too Aislinn [19:51] <Narya> for some reason! [19:51] <gingin77> lol yeah ofenjen [19:51] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> I wonder how their portraits ended up at Hogwarts [19:51] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> those that are not HMs or former professors [19:51] <Expelliarmas> a magical garage sale? [19:51] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> or are they all former professors? [19:51] <magicmeg8> Yes, it's a definite possibility, but there have to be portraits in Hogwarts that aren't of real people. [19:52] <Aislinn> good question, ginbot [19:52] <gingin77> Maybe they requested to be placed there [19:52] <Narya> They might have studied or worked there [19:52] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> not necessarily Head Masters outside the HM office [19:52] <ofenjen> Perhaps a former headmaster/mistress was an art collector! [19:52] <Aislinn> I wonder if they left instructions that they wanted to hang in Hogwarts upon their death [19:52] * MonieLou has joined #lounge [19:52] <MonieLou> Hello???? [19:52] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Maybe Aislinn [19:52] <Narya> Interesting point - a link to their past [19:52] <gingin77> ello [19:52] <magicmeg8> Hi moneilou [19:52] <Aislinn> hi monielou [19:52] <michpotter> that's what i was thinking aislinn [19:52] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> or they're like patrons [19:52] <Aislinn> we're discussing portraits right now [19:52] <ofenjen> Good point, they could've been left to Hogwarts in various people's wills [19:52] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> like the ones at St. Mungos [19:52] <Expelliarmas> what about the portrait of the ugle little man in the Prime Minister's office, do you think he was a real person? [19:53] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> 'patron saints' so to speak [19:53] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> guardians of sorts [19:53] <ofenjen> He can definitely move between portaits... maybe a former minister of magic? [19:53] <MonieLou> That toady looking guy? I think he was just...there. As a messenger [19:53] <magicmeg8> Probably, Expel, seems more comparable to the headmaster's portraits [19:53] <Narya> yes, I think so ... he was too real to be made up, if that makes sense [19:53] <Aislinn> could have been, expel [19:53] <MonieLou> Never a real person [19:53] <Aislinn> a percy sort of character from earlier years at the Ministry [19:53] <harryfreak359> possibly expel [19:53] <Narya> Like a very officious former minister [19:54] <Pleshette> Why would wizards use a portrait if the person wasn't real at some time [19:54] <MonieLou> I dunno...why would they put a minister in the Mionisters room? Kinda...wordy [19:54] <Expelliarmas> Pompous Percy should end up doing more with himself than beinga messenger. [19:54] <Aislinn> He seems more assistant than minister-ish [19:54] * Professor_Nigellus has quit [Bye] [19:54] <harryfreak359> i think so too Aislinn [19:54] <MonieLou> Yea [19:54] <Narya> To drive it home to the Muggle PM how serious the situation was [19:54] <magicmeg8> Why does Jo even include these portraits in the Potterverse? What does this say about her view of death? [19:55] <gingin77> yeah the word portrait makes it seem as if the people in it were at one time alive [19:55] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> likely a number of reasons Meg [19:55] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Comic relief smile [19:55] * MonieLou has quit [Bye] [19:55] <magicmeg8> Good point, camie. haha GFAB [19:55] * HeleneB has quit [Bye] [19:55] * HeleneB has joined #lounge [19:55] <harryfreak359> lol [19:55] <Narya> And reminders of what they were when they were alive [19:55] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> carriers of news/history [19:55] <Aislinn> I wonder if it gives her comfort to think of a world in which it is possible to still communicate with the dead on some level [19:55] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> they are kind of gossipy [19:55] <gingin77> I think its another way for her to tell us that the dead dont ever truely leave us. there is always impressons and memories left of them [19:55] <magicmeg8> I was thinking of that as well, Ais [19:55] <Expelliarmas> Do you have to be dead to have a portrait? [19:55] * Whisperwing has quit [Bye] [19:55] <magicmeg8> Good point, camie. [19:55] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> maybe their purpose is to provide background and give some guidance [19:56] <Aislinn> given the timing of the loss of her mom [19:56] <Narya> If a person has been loved, they are never really gone [19:56] <magicmeg8> no, expel [19:56] <harryfreak359> good question expel [19:56] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> by background I mean a bit of history [19:56] <HeleneB> Exp - that's the question of the century! [19:56] <michpotter> possible that death isn't the very end, you can leave an imprint as such on 'earth' [19:56] <Narya> I think you do [19:56] * Pleshette has quit [Bye] [19:56] <HeleneB> have to be dead? [19:56] <Narya> yes [19:56] <Expelliarmas> Or do the portrait properties kick in after death? [19:56] <gingin77> What about the famous wizard cards..... are those portraits or just pictures [19:56] <Narya> just pictures, I think ... different] [19:56] <magicmeg8> I don't think you have to be dead -- but i think some magic has to be done to it in order to be like the portraits we see in the headmaster's offic. [19:56] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> interesting question Expel [19:56] <harryfreak359> more like photgraphs [19:56] <Aislinn> they seem to be just pictures [19:56] <gingin77> Dumbledore left his wizard card in the first book like a portrait [19:57] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> we know that all portraits move in the wiz world [19:57] <HeleneB> Yes, there's a difference between regular wizard photos and the significant portraits [19:57] <harryfreak359> which is really cool [19:57] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> and they carry an essence of the person the snap has captured [19:57] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> like Harry trying to get away from Lockhart smile [19:57] <Narya> a snapshot of their personality [19:57] <HeleneB> I keep thinking of Lockhart's pictures in their hairnets [19:57] <harryfreak359> a special potion is used on them right? [19:57] <gingin77> lol [19:57] <Aislinn> loved that one, ginbot! [19:57] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> yes - an essence is how I'd describe it [19:57] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> LOL [19:58] <HeleneB> Yes, HF369 [19:58] <HeleneB> 359 [19:58] <harryfreak359> lol [19:58] <HeleneB> So I wonder what they use on portraits. [19:58] <harryfreak359> a stonger potion [19:58] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> acryllic tongue [19:58] <harryfreak359> ? [19:58] <Narya> Possibly a Charm [19:58] <gingin77> i think maybe its the way it was painted.. or a charm like narya said [19:58] <harryfreak359> and oil to GFAB! [19:58] <HeleneB> Didn't JK say that Harry will have a chance to talk with Sirius again in Book 7? [19:58] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> LOL [19:58] <Narya> hmmm ... [19:59] <gingin77> maybe its the paints [19:59] <Narya> in context of the mirror, I think [19:59] <gingin77> special paints [19:59] <Narya> can't remember [19:59] <harryfreak359> ooh, magical paints! [19:59] <Expelliarmas> yes, but I think it has something to do with the two-way mirror--Harry talking to Sirius. [19:59] <HeleneB> Me either, Narya! [19:59] <magicmeg8> I'm not sure, Helene. [19:59] <gingin77> yeah there is way more to that mirror [19:59] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Well, maybe once the painting starts forming in to a true representation of the person, only then does it spring to life [19:59] <Narya> If the broken one is mended [19:59] <HeleneB> I wonder what Harry's folks would say if they had portraits [19:59] <Aislinn> I don't know that she ever specifically said he would talk to sirius, but she did say the mirrors might come into play again [20:00] <harryfreak359> She did say that the mirror was going to be important [20:00] <HeleneB> Like in Poltergeist? [20:00] <gingin77> why do i have the feeling that fixing that mirror is ging to be hard.... i dont think a simple repairo is gonna do it [20:00] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> I think she might have done HF [20:00] <HeleneB> HF? [20:00] <gingin77> yeah she said we havnt seen the last of the mirror [20:00] <Expelliarmas> even the mirrors seem to have personality, "Tuck your shirt in, scruffy!" "You're fighting a losing battle there, dear." [20:00] <HeleneB> I love those! [20:00] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Me too! [20:00] <gingin77> i love the talking mirrors [20:01] <gingin77> i want one [20:01] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> I don't sad [20:01] <Expelliarmas> Hermione will come up with some way to fix the mirror. [20:01] <Aislinn> Are portraits a good resource for the living? How so? What examples can you find?* [20:01] <HeleneB> We talk about personification in our world--imagine living in a world where they do that all the time. Ron's family car was practically a family pet. [20:01] <Narya> Dilys Derwent [20:01] <Expelliarmas> She'll use the all-purpose spell, "Expelliarmus!" [20:01] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Aislinn - I think they are but they are limited [20:01] <Narya> She helped save Arthur [20:01] <magicmeg8> I what way, GFAB> [20:01] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> in sort of the same way the ghosts are [20:01] <HeleneB> Aislinn, I would think they must be, otherwise why have all the old headmasters there as a resource? [20:01] <Aislinn> as did the one who went to the Ministry [20:01] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> limited by the knowledge they held while alive [20:02] <magicmeg8> Yep, good point, Narya. [20:02] <gingin77> The whole Arthur situations proves their use [20:02] <HeleneB> Surely not just a sounding board. [20:02] <Narya> Everard [20:02] <Aislinn> he's the one! [20:02] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> They're like a recording of their former selves so to speak, rather than.... [20:02] <HeleneB> And perhaps a portrait of someone at GH told DD what happened that night to Harry's folks [20:02] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Omnicient [20:02] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> sp?? [20:02] <Narya> I think it did [20:02] <gingin77> thats what i was thinking Helene [20:02] <Narya> omniscient biggrin [20:02] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> ty! [20:02] <gingin77> how did he know so fast to be able to tell hagrid when to go [20:02] <Narya> hard word [20:02] <Aislinn> phineas was important in keeping Harry at Grimmauld Place, when he thought he was possessed [20:03] <harryfreak359> yeah ais [20:03] <Narya> I bet DD spoke to him and impressed on him how important that was [20:03] <magicmeg8> But here's what i don't get -- if they become more and more like a parrot, why would they be so important? doesn't the fact that their knowlegde fades with time sort of contradict their importance? [20:03] <Expelliarmas> phineas was carrying out DD's order, right? [20:03] <Narya> yes [20:03] <HeleneB> Good question, Meg [20:03] * Winky05 has quit [Bye] [20:03] <Expelliarmas> I don't think their knowledge does fade over time. [20:03] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Meg - I think they hold histories but from their own perspectives [20:03] <Narya> I don't either [20:03] <Aislinn> I didn't get the impression that they fade over time [20:03] <gingin77> Well do we know how quickly they fade [20:04] * Professor_Nigellus has joined #lounge [20:04] <HeleneB> Me either Aislinn [20:04] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> do I think they're highly reliable? Only as well as their living self would have been [20:04] <Expelliarmas> phineas remembered how he treated students back in his day, and he was the worst HM hogwarts ever had. [20:04] * Poet has quit [Bye] [20:04] <HeleneB> If Hogwarts has been around for 1000 years, some of those portraits are VERY old [20:04] * Poet has joined #lounge [20:04] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> for example, I certainly wouldn't be asking Phineas' portrait for accurate info [20:04] <Aislinn> right, ginbot - phineas certainly continued to have a snide slytherin-ny quality about him [20:04] <Narya> But he's bound to serve the Headmaster - so he couldn't lie [20:04] <gingin77> like if it takes a while then they are only there for how long they seem important to the people who use them as a resorce... like 1000 years from now do you think that Dumbledores guidance is going to be needed by a headmaster? [20:05] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> absolutely he did [20:05] <Poet> The portraits are almost like the "original" Dumbledore's Army ;) [20:05] <harryfreak359> yeah poet [20:05] <harryfreak359> lol [20:05] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Ah - good one P! [20:05] <magicmeg8> As to the fading, I remember Melissa saying on PC that Jo had said that they become more like a parrot over time. [20:05] <magicmeg8> But you guys are right -- we have no idea of the time limit [20:05] <Aislinn> sirius' mum is a much more recent portrait than most of the ones we see, so she is sort of an argument against them fading to parrot over time, as she is the most parrot like [20:05] <Narya> Because they don't have any fresh ideas to add to their knowledge [20:05] <HeleneB> *sigh* [20:05] <Expelliarmas> then it takes a very long time for them to become parrots, but then time is a bit flexible in the magical world. [20:05] <HeleneB> And times they are achangin' [20:06] <Poet> Maybe she simply WAS that mad. [20:06] <gingin77> well maybe sirius'smom didnt have much to give after death [20:06] <Narya> She was definitely pretty virulent [20:06] <HeleneB> Mrs. Black? [20:06] <magicmeg8> I think that's highly possible, poet -- good point camie [20:06] <Aislinn> she didn't include that in the interview transcript meg [20:06] <Narya> yes [20:06] <Expelliarmas> Whacko Mom Black only had Kreacher to talk to, he's not the king of normal. [20:06] <magicmeg8> she didn't? hmm. I could have sworn melissa had said that. [20:06] <ofenjen> She certainly makes it easy to understand why Sirius ran away from home... [20:06] <HeleneB> I wonder if Mrs. Black became even more angry over time after the loss of both her sons. [20:06] <gingin77> i think she said it on a pottercast meg [20:06] <HeleneB> Do we know when Mr. Black died? [20:06] <Narya> I don't think she mourned Sirius, but I could be wrong [20:07] <Aislinn> she might have said it in PC, but it was not in the interview she and Emerson did, at least not that I recall [20:07] <harryfreak359> i don' think so either Narya [20:07] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> 10 years prior to the story beginning I think [20:07] <HeleneB> I think the depth of her emotion could be a reflection of her conflicted feelings [20:07] <HeleneB> Love/hate [20:07] <Aislinn> I don't think she did either narya [20:07] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> 10 or 11 years before [20:07] <magicmeg8> k, -- thanks for checkignt hat, Ais. [20:07] * futureweasley has joined #lounge [20:07] * michpotter has quit [Bye] [20:07] <Narya> She was pretty set in her ways though, Helene [20:08] <Professor_Nigellus> Does anyone think that the portrait in the Prime Ministers office is related to Umbridge? He reminded me of her. [20:08] <Narya> I bet Sirius had a tough time with her over the years he was at home [20:08] <HeleneB> But people often have strong emotions covering up other issues [20:08] <Narya> true [20:08] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Wow Prof N! [20:08] <gingin77> That was why Sirius left Narya [20:08] <Expelliarmas> There haven't been any non-human portraits, have there? Centaurs, elves, etc. which speak? [20:08] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> what a great observation! [20:08] <HeleneB> I never noticed that PN [20:08] <gingin77> good point prof. [20:08] <Aislinn> yes, narya [20:09] <Narya> But I don't think Sir

Aislinn View Member Profile	Jul 19 2006, 08:34 PM Post #2
Chief Cat Herder Posts: 3,514 Joined: 10:28am August 6, 2005 Location: In the Corner Booth - home of the elusive Holy Grain!	[20:09] <Narya> But I don't think Sirius meant that much to her [20:09] <Narya> Regulus, yes [20:09] <Narya> Sirius, no [20:09] <Aislinn> they seemed to look at the world in very different ways [20:09] <Narya> None that we know of, Expell [20:09] <gingin77> eh...there is always some sort of love between a mother and child [20:09] * Whisperwing has joined #lounge [20:09] <HeleneB> Well, I have some sons right now who look at the world very differently from me, but I still love them [20:09] <gingin77> she had to like him somewhat.. [20:09] <Narya> I can't imagine it, but I'm prepared to be proved wrong! [20:09] <HeleneB> He was her oldest son. [20:09] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Expel - re non human portraits - the bowl of fruit one outside/entrance to the kitchen at H/W [20:09] <HeleneB> :D [20:09] <Expelliarmas> Whacko Mom Black burned Sirius out of the tapestry, I don't think she loved him. [20:09] <Narya> and her biggest disappointment [20:09] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> you tickle the pear to gain access [20:09] <ofenjen> I'm sure she loved him, but was probably incredibly frustrated that he didn't see the world "her way" [20:09] <gingin77> Yes but you do rash things in disapointment [20:09] <HeleneB> Well, ever see Fiddler on the Roof? [20:09] <Narya> yes [20:09] <harryfreak359> no [20:10] <Narya> But that's different [20:10] <HeleneB> He basically disowned his 3rd daughter, but he loved her. [20:10] <Narya> Filial love [20:10] <Expelliarmas> The fruit, however, doesn't speak, does it? [20:10] <Narya> and agape [20:10] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> no - but I think it giggles smile [20:10] <magicmeg8> K, guys. Let's move on: Priori Incantatem allowed us to see Voldemort's victims for a short while. These apparitions were not only visible, but talked and reasoned with Harry. Why would JKR choose to have these "ghosts" play such a pivotal role at the end of GoF? [20:10] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> it's v. ticklish tongue [20:10] <Narya> But Mrs Black had neither of those [20:10] <Narya> To show Harry how much he was loved, and what he could do with that power [20:10] <gingin77> Dumbledore explained them as imprints as well...why is everything explained as an imprint [20:11] <harryfreak359> they weren't ghost, DD said they were echos, [20:11] <HeleneB> I loved for Harry to have a chance to hear from his folks. [20:11] <Narya> me too [20:11] <Expelliarmas> Those echoes were very limited. [20:11] <Narya> Very touching [20:11] <futureweasley> good point harryfreak [20:11] * Whisperwing has quit [Bye] [20:11] <Narya> And powerful [20:11] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Yes Narya - very [20:11] <gingin77> echoes... didnt seem very limited.. they talked and reasoned with harry [20:11] <Narya> I loved seeing Lily [20:11] <harryfreak359> hey futureweasley! [20:11] <HeleneB> Yes, powerful enought o stop LV [20:11] <harryfreak359> me too Narya [20:11] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> filled with love they were [20:11] <futureweasley> hi there! [20:12] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> you could almost feel it [20:12] <Expelliarmas> How was their essence capture so quickly? Is that a product of a killing or unforgiveable curse? [20:12] <Narya> of course, because love is more powerful than anything he can do [20:12] <Poet> Those imprints were simply amazing. We only saw them for a brief time. I wonder how long they would've lasted. [20:12] <Narya> Essence comes from self, I think [20:12] <HeleneB> But there were also shadows of the other spells--like Peter's hand [20:12] <gingin77> Probably as long as the Priori was taking place Poet [20:12] <Narya> Not a product of the curses [20:12] <Narya> Shadows of evil [20:12] <Narya> A good contrast [20:12] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> they served as a protection [20:12] <gingin77> they vanished when harry broke the connection [20:12] <ofenjen> Harry needed help, and there was no one else to give it. It had to come from somewhere [20:12] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> a shield - bought harry time [20:12] <Narya> From within himself [20:13] <Expelliarmas> They could only linger long enough to give Harry time to run. [20:13] <HeleneB> I like how every single one was rooting for Harry [20:13] <Narya> yes [20:13] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> and they also guided him [20:13] <Poet> Right....obviously Harry couldn't hold onto the wand forever, nor could Voldemort [20:13] <HeleneB> Even the muggle [20:13] <gingin77> they gave him courage to continue on [20:13] <Narya> Justice and a sense of what was right [20:13] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> encouraged him [20:13] <ofenjen> I'd be rooting for hary if the other guy killed me... [20:13] <futureweasley> his enter voice...urging him to press on, and deminishing his own self-doubt [20:13] <gingin77> they knew he was on their side [20:13] <Professor_Nigellus> Voldemort seemed to be afraid of them. [20:13] <HeleneB> good point, ofenjen! [20:13] <Expelliarmas> But there was also phoenix song associated with the connection of the wands, was that from the core of the wands? Or did that help produce the echoes? [20:14] <gingin77> I agree with whoever said they were full of love [20:14] <Narya> from the core of Harry's wand [20:14] <ofenjen> He's afraid of death, and they represent death [20:14] <HeleneB> I loved that LV was afraid of them. he should have been! [20:14] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> thanks gin! [20:14] <Aislinn> I think it was the connection of the wands that produced the phoenix song, expel [20:14] <futureweasley> p.s. Neville's new wand is the key to killing Voldemort [20:14] <futureweasley> :-) [20:14] <harryfreak359> lol future [20:14] <Expelliarmas> lol, future [20:14] <harryfreak359> only if Harry uses it! [20:14] <HeleneB> What's his wand's core? I can't remember. [20:14] <Narya> I don't think it's as straightforward as that ... [20:14] <gingin77> that could be a reason why voldemort was scared.. also the phoenix song... that was because of the wand cores i thought.. it modivated harry yet weakend Voldie [20:15] <Narya> Phoenix feather [20:15] <gingin77> Phoenix feather [20:15] <Narya> both his and LV's - from Fawkes [20:15] <ofenjen> perhaps because his soul is fractured? [20:15] <Narya> deliberately fractured [20:15] <HeleneB> But Neville's core isn't from Fawkes is it? Do we know? [20:15] <Narya> so no power left [20:15] <ofenjen> absolutely [20:15] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> yes - the most evil kind of fractured [20:15] <futureweasley> fractured AND extracted from the body [20:15] <Narya> no, it's not - we don't know [20:15] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> not damaged but severed purposely [20:15] <futureweasley> right [20:15] <ofenjen> Ollivander said he only gave 2 feathers [20:15] <magicmeg8> Do you think it was important that al [20:16] <Expelliarmas> no idea what forms the core of Neville's new wand. [20:16] <HeleneB> Up to that point he'd only given two. Might he have given one more? [20:16] <Narya> no [20:16] <HeleneB> Perhaps at DD's request? [20:16] <futureweasley> nonononono [20:16] <ofenjen> good point smile [20:16] <Narya> don't think so [20:16] <futureweasley> lol [20:16] <Narya> that's deliberate on JKR's part [20:16] <gingin77> with all this talk of wands it makes me wonder where Dumbledore'sis [20:16] <Expelliarmas> Why did Ollivander disappear? [20:16] <Narya> it's between those two, no one else [20:17] <magicmeg8> Let's focus on those echoes, guys [20:17] <HeleneB> Harry and LV? I agree [20:17] <futureweasley> I don't think Ollivander was taken...I think he's hiding [20:17] <gingin77> um echoes...... [20:17] <futureweasley> echoes...right [20:17] <magicmeg8> smile [20:17] <Narya> Echoes of phoenix song, Meg ...? [20:17] <Expelliarmas> Would ollivander have been able to explain the echoes? He's the one that knows about the two wands sharing the same core? [20:17] <harryfreak359> lol Narya [20:17] <HeleneB> Oh, Meg. We're being naughty and getting off topic. A bunch of Bad Dobbys! [20:17] <magicmeg8> Of those who came from the priori incantatem [20:17] * Poet has quit [Bye] [20:17] <magicmeg8> lol Helene [20:17] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> So what role do you think ghosts will play in the end? Significant, or they'll carry on as they have throughout? [20:17] <harryfreak359> hmm... [20:17] <Narya> Echoes of love, then [20:18] <gingin77> Good point expell.. that could be a reason why Voldie would want him.. but of course we dont know if voldie has him or if he is in hiding [20:18] <futureweasley> echoes of love...that's my next filk [20:18] <Narya> Carry on pretty much as before ... I think [20:18] <HeleneB> I'm very curious about the ghosts because someone suggested the veil might be a way to get rid of the horcruxes. [20:18] * WhiteAuror has joined #lounge [20:18] <harryfreak359> I think there was less of the souls of them than there would be in ghosts [20:18] <HeleneB> It might take a ghost to carry them through [20:18] <Narya> If LV goes through it, you mean? [20:18] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> v. interesting Helene! [20:18] *** ofenjen has quit [Bye] [20:18] <Expelliarmas> why did the echoes scare LV? [20:18] <Narya> He won't go willingly [20:18] <Aislinn> I don't know if ghosts have any connection to the veil, since they chose not to cross over [20:19] <gingin77> but can a ghost hold tangible objects... like carry around stuff [20:19] <futureweasley> maybe they can just throw the horcruxes beyond the veil? [20:19] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> I think he felt their power, Expel [20:19] <Narya> They scared him because he has no power over them, and knows it [20:19] <HeleneB> But what happens if a ghost changes his/her mind? [20:19] <harryfreak359> because the dead are coming back to haunt him and her fears death [20:19] <Narya> Ancient magic - the thing he fears [20:19] <harryfreak359> he* [20:19] <HeleneB> What kind of ghost would someone with only 1/7th of a soul be? [20:19] <Narya> His magic is corrupt - their magic is pure [20:19] <gingin77> a very thin one [20:19] <Expelliarmas> Don't know that ghosts can hold anything, Nick had to get Peeves to smash the vanishing cabinet. [20:19] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> back to vapourmort smile [20:19] <Narya> A very poor one [20:20] <harryfreak359> a very light ghost [20:20] * kimberlyhuff has joined #lounge [20:20] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> or maybe a poltergeist [20:20] <harryfreak359> naw [20:20] <futureweasley> peeves! [20:20] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> lol [20:20] <magicmeg8> Let's try to figure out just what is in the "essence" of the dead that are communicated with in the HP world. What elements are visible in ghosts, portraits, etc. that connect them to their former selves? [20:20] <HeleneB> I would be afraid of LV as a Poltergeist. He can do too much damage.l [20:20] <WhiteAuror> lol [20:20] <Narya> Their personality [20:20] * ofenjen has joined #lounge [20:20] <HeleneB> Their fears and loves [20:20] <gingin77> well we have of course their appearance.... and then the personality [20:20] <Narya> A bit of their ethics [20:21] <futureweasley> they are still themselves...just non-living [20:21] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Well, I think paintings are a recording [20:21] <HeleneB> "Obiwan, I need your help . . . [20:21] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> with some sort of magical intelligence [20:21] <harryfreak359> i think so to GFAB, a recording that can think for its self [20:21] <harryfreak359> lol helene [20:21] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> yes - like an AI of sorts [20:21] <Narya> But unlike the diary, can mostly be trusted ... [20:21] <HeleneB> With a limited database [20:21] <gingin77> i was just thinking AI ginbot [20:21] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> but a ghost - I think a ghost contains the soul of the person [20:21] <Aislinn> yes, AI is a good metaphor [20:21] <Aislinn> me too [20:21] <futureweasley> they can also retain memories from the time since their death... [20:22] <Expelliarmas> can be trusted to the extent you trusted the person in real life. [20:22] <Narya> yes [20:22] <harryfreak359> yeah, because that person was afriad of dying, their soul becomes trapped on earth [20:22] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Whereas a physical form will deteriorate at death, the soul, unless it's diminished through other means, lives on [20:22] <harryfreak359> the opposite of a dementor attack [20:22] <HeleneB> So are you thinking the soul splits, GFAB? [20:22] <Narya> Unless it's LV's of course [20:22] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> does that make any sense? [20:22] <HeleneB> On death? [20:22] <gingin77> good point ginbo [20:22] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> no - any sort of damage [20:22] * futureweasley has quit [Bye] [20:22] <gingin77> yeath total sence [20:22] <Narya> Soul splits if you tamper with it [20:23] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> yep - Narya [20:23] * Winky05 has joined #lounge [20:23] <Narya> Meddling in very Dark magic [20:23] <harryfreak359> yeah GFAB I got what you meant [20:23] <magicmeg8> So do we think there is a little bit of soul in ghosts at least? [20:23] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> I wonder if the soul would in fact diminish over time [20:23] <Expelliarmas> the soul splits upon taking an evil act, such as murder. Don't think that just dying would result in a split or torn soul. [20:23] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> like an erosion [20:23] <harryfreak359> yes meg [20:23] <Narya> Yes, if the person had been good in life [20:23] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> an intact soul, that is [20:23] <HeleneB> But a ghost isn't created by dark magic--just fear of going over [20:23] <Narya> yes [20:23] <Aislinn> I think the soul is what stayed behind in the ghost, meg [20:23] <harryfreak359> yeah [20:24] <Narya> A soul is destroyed by Dark magic - like LV's [20:24] <harryfreak359> yeah aislinn [20:24] <HeleneB> Yes [20:24] <Narya> Murder, torture, etc [20:24] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> it turns to antimatter smile [20:24] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> JK [20:24] <ofenjen> LOL [20:24] <harryfreak359> yeah Narya [20:24] <gingin77> Soul erosion would make me think that ghosts would just vanish...like when their soul was used up they would just go POP and be gone [20:24] <magicmeg8> haha GFAB. I agree, Ais. [20:24] <HeleneB> Better contain it or it will blow up [20:24] <Winky05> I agree with that one too. [20:24] <Expelliarmas> I don't think the soul or any part of it remains with a ghost. The ghost is an imitation of life, not actually life. To me, a sould is the essence of life. [20:24] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> like a black star [20:24] <Narya> I think the soul does remain, to a certain extent [20:25] <Aislinn> so, what do you think happens to their soul, expel? [20:25] * kimberlyhuff has quit [Bye] [20:25] <Narya> If the person has been good in life, then it does [20:25] <Narya> Just a thought [20:25] <harryfreak359> i think the soul is actually the ghost [20:25] <HeleneB> So where does that essence that would normally have gone over go if the soul does not stay behind to become a ghost? [20:25] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> me too HF [20:25] * WhiteAuror left #lounge [] [20:25] <Aislinn> I think that is the only thing that remains after death, and either crosses over, or doesn't [20:25] <gingin77> No the ghost is teh imprint of the soul [20:25] * harryfreak359 gives GFAB a high-five [20:25] <gingin77> its like a copy [20:26] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> so what haens to the soul [20:26] <HeleneB> Well, if it's only an imprint, where's the master? [20:26] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> it doesn't stay in the body and deteriorate [20:26] <Expelliarmas> I think the soul remains trapped on earth, it does not go beyond the veil. That is the suggestion of sadness I see with the ghosts.. They aren't here and they cannot move n. [20:26] <Narya> It lives on in the hearts of the people who loved it, does that make sense? [20:26] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> the soul is the life force [20:26] <gingin77> Limbo [20:26] <gingin77> the soul goes to limbo [20:26] <harryfreak359> interesting Narya [20:26] <gingin77> it is between life and death [20:26] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Good one Narya [20:26] <gingin77> Narya you beat me i love that [20:26] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> so the soul goes into purgatory, so to speak? [20:26] <Narya> Like Lily's soul [20:26] <Narya> It didn't die [20:26] <HeleneB> But she's not a ghost [20:26] <Narya> It's still here in a sense [20:26] <Narya> I know [20:26] <gingin77> its in harry [20:26] <gingin77> awww [20:26] <Narya> Exemplified in Harry [20:27] <Narya> making no sense now!! [20:27] <HeleneB> But doesn't everyone who's loved do that? [20:27] <Narya> yes, I think so [20:27] <harryfreak359> naw its behind hte veil [20:27] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> no - it's a good point Narya [20:27] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> I can see the logic [20:27] * Professor_Nigellus has quit [Bye] [20:27] <gingin77> yeah Ginbot... the soul is in sort of purgatory... it has no where to go when the person chooses ghost over death [20:27] <HeleneB> I agree [20:27] <Expelliarmas> The souls of Lilly and James went with them. [20:27] <Narya> but they live on in Harry [20:27] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> so what happens after the choice I wonder [20:27] * harrypotterfan123 has joined #lounge [20:28] <Narya> Because they weren't afraid to die [20:28] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> we know what happens if someone chooses ghost [20:28] <Narya> Sirius too [20:28] <harryfreak359> yeah [20:28] <HeleneB> Well, we have stories of ghosts who are helped to transition. Could that happen in Potterverse? [20:28] <Aislinn> that would be interesting, helene [20:28] <Narya> hmmm ... [20:28] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> good question Helen [20:28] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> e [20:28] <ofenjen> Like an exorcism? [20:28] <harryfreak359> . . . [20:28] <ofenjen> Without the spinning heads, of course [20:28] <Expelliarmas> There has to be a way for a ghost to chose to take the next step. Exorcism? But that implies an evil ghost. [20:28] <HeleneB> No, an exorcism is when there's possession [20:28] <Aislinn> it seems like Nick would maybe be ready to move on now, even though he wasn't when he died [20:29] <Narya> So Nick could be encouraged to go on, Helene? [20:29] <HeleneB> Kind of like LV to Harry in OotP [20:29] <Narya> Lose his fear? [20:29] <ofenjen> Hmmm. Guess it depends on the circumstances [20:29] <gingin77> i like the idea from before that a ghost could possibly go through the veil to get to death [20:29] <gingin77> that seems possible [20:29] <HeleneB> That's what I've been wondering about, Narya [20:29] <Narya> makes sense [20:29] <gingin77> i would have never thought of it before... [20:29] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Actually Expel - the impression Nick leaves is that it's an irreversible decision [20:29] * harrypotterfan123 has quit [Bye] [20:29] <harryfreak359> yeah gingin [20:29] <HeleneB> But does he know about the veil? [20:29] <Narya> yes [20:29] <HeleneB> Sorry, I keep coming back to that. [20:29] <Expelliarmas> Nick knows about the veil. [20:30] <gingin77> because to actualy go through the veil there has to no longer be a fear of death.. since it is tech a choice [20:30] <harryfreak359> how do we knkow he does? [20:30] <gingin77> Ghosts could be told of the veil [20:30] <gingin77> who Nick? [20:30] <Expelliarmas> Didn't Sirius go through the veil by accident? [20:30] <Narya> He knows what to tell Harry [20:30] <Narya> yes, he did [20:30] <harryfreak359> eah [20:30] <magicmeg8> Let's move back to the portraits. Do you think they can communicate anything beyond what they already knew when they were living? For instance, can they think logically, make inferences?** [20:30] <HeleneB> Yes, but what would happen to a ghost who went through it? [20:30] <harryfreak359> yeah* [20:30] <Narya> nothing [20:30] <Narya> they're dead already [20:31] <gingin77> Nick knew of harry's loss.. i dont know if he knew of the circumstances behind it [20:31] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> I think Meg that they can communicate to the extent they know or learn of [20:31] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> and by that I mean.... [20:31] <HeleneB> And Nick anticipated that Harry woudl approach him about it. [20:31] <Narya> I think he did [20:31] * ofenjen left #lounge [] [20:31] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> they are able to follow directives - we see the HM giving directives [20:31] <harryfreak359> I think they can think logically meg [20:31] <gingin77> i think portrats can make infrences onwhat they knew at the time of their death [20:31] <Expelliarmas> If the HM portraits can't be logical or make inferences, then why would the current HM want their counsel? [20:31] <gingin77> or time of paitning or whatever [20:31] <HeleneB> And they have emotions. [20:31] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> We see the HM (or at least hear it through the door) of the HM seeking their counsel [20:32] <harryfreak359> yeah [20:32] <gingin77> but i dont think that they could retain and use new information [20:32] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> it seems as if the individual's personality is preserved through the painting [20:32] <HeleneB> Why not? [20:32] <gingin77> brb.. time to refresh im lagging [20:32] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> and intelligence [20:32] <Expelliarmas> I think they can retain and use new info, because they spend so much time gossiping. [20:32] <Narya> yes, it is [20:32] <HeleneB> :) [20:32] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> so if you have a really dumb portrait... smile [20:32] <harryfreak359> lol [20:33] <HeleneB> So some learn better than others? [20:33] <Narya> no useful information at all!!! [20:33] <HeleneB> lol [20:33] <Aislinn> they pass information on , so they need to retain it at least long enough to do that [20:33] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Yes - I think so [20:33] <Narya> like Violet biggrin [20:33] <HeleneB> Yes [20:33] <harryfreak359> yeah Aislinn [20:33] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Violet the Wizened Witchie [20:33] <harryfreak359> lol [20:33] <Expelliarmas> if the portrait captures the essence of a dolt, like say the memory-less Lockhart, then that portrait wouldbe useless, but pretty! [20:33] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> and Hogwarts gossip [20:33] <Narya> pretty much [20:33] <HeleneB> too funny Exp! [20:34] <HeleneB> Eye Candy [20:34] <Aislinn> they also have to retain the passwords [20:34] <Aislinn> which is new information [20:34] * gingin77 has quit [Bye] [20:34] <Expelliarmas> Crabbe and Goyle's portrait wouldn't add much, but they'd be intimidating to the other portraits. That's who they are. [20:34] <HeleneB> Excellent point, Aislinn--and the fat lady knew about everyone looking for Sirius Black and recognized him [20:34] <Aislinn> and sir cadogan had to take on a new role, when he filled in for the Fat Lady [20:34] <harryfreak359> I think they have an abitity to retain information [20:34] <Narya> Maybe they are trained to do that ... by a Charm [20:34] <Aislinn> right helene [20:34] <Narya> Like Filius teaching the front doors [20:35] <Aislinn> that is why I think there is more to them then we were led to believe by Jo's comment [20:35] <HeleneB> Gotta run Bye all! [20:35] <Expelliarmas> Weren't the portraits trained to recognize Sirius' picture? [20:35] * HeleneB has quit [Bye] [20:35] <Narya> they're intriguing [20:35] <magicmeg8> What ideas have you had in the past about how the portraits might work? Have any turned out to be right or wrong? [20:35] <Narya> The doors were [20:35] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Yes Expel - they were [20:35] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Well.... right or wrong... [20:36] <Expelliarmas> I thought the chocolate frogs were used to communicate, but Jo shot that down. [20:36] <Aislinn> did she? [20:36] * gingin77 has joined #lounge [20:36] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> I think Prof N was not the most reliable source [20:36] <Expelliarmas> Yep, on her website. [20:36] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> and he carried out directives grudgingly [20:36] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> and half-hearted [20:36] <gingin77> i hate when my computer is stupid.... [20:37] <harryfreak359> don't we all ginging [20:37] <harryfreak359> gingin* whoops [20:37] <Aislinn> How do you think portraits will be used in the seventh book? [20:38] *** gingin77 has quit [Bye] [20:38] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Certainly I think DD's will be important [20:38] <harryfreak359> they will help Harry in telling him where some of the horcruxes are located, mainly because of DD research [20:38] <Narya> I think they might give some limited help - but DD's most of all [20:38] <Expelliarmas> DD's will have something to say, but I don't think it will be significant. Harry is on his own [Hermione and Ron as well]. [20:38] <Narya> I don't see them giving info on Horcruxes, though [20:38] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> not so sure Expel [20:39] <harryfreak359> not really where they are located [20:39] <Narya> Harry is on his own in the sense that he has to finish what DD started [20:39] <magicmeg8> We can open this quesiton to all means by which the dead are communicated with. [20:39] <magicmeg8> not just portraits [20:39] <Narya> The mirror again? [20:40] <magicmeg8> Do you think it will communicate with the dead, though, narya? [20:40] <Aislinn> I think we will see Harry communicate with someone on the other side, either through DD's portrait or the mirrors [20:40] <Narya> It might ... I have a wacky theory on that one!! [20:40] <Aislinn> probably both [20:40] <Expelliarmas> what if the two-way mirror got tossed into the veil? just a thought. [20:40] <harryfreak359> i think the mirror will help Harry contact Sirius [20:40] <Aislinn> what is it, narya? [20:40] <Narya> if it's repaired [20:40] <Narya> goodness, no - ... it's wild [20:40] <Aislinn> do you think sirius has his with him? [20:41] <Narya> yes [20:41] * harryfreak359 listening intently to Narya [20:41] <harryfreak359> come on Narya tell us! [20:41] <Expelliarmas> Sirius would have been carrying his in the hopes of talking to Harry. [20:41] <Narya> yes he would, I'm sure of it [20:41] <harryfreak359> it can't be anymore weird than some of the theories I thought up... [20:41] <Narya> no, it's off topic - sorry Meg and Aislinn [20:42] <Aislinn> that''s ok narya - you have me intrigued [20:42] * harryfreak359 sighs with disappointment [20:42] <Narya> I'll post about it somewhere .... [20:42] <Expelliarmas> Ah, nuts, now I'll be wondering what the theory was, it will interfere with my work, criminals will go free ... feeling guilty yet? [20:42] <Narya> no biggrin [20:42] <harryfreak359> me too [20:42] <Narya> I'll get shot ... biggrin [20:42] <Narya> How will Harry's mirror be repaired? [20:43] <Expelliarmas> not by any of my defendants, they're still safely locked up, but if I'm distracted ... [20:43] <harryfreak359> by magic [20:43] * hermeeownee has joined #lounge [20:43] <harryfreak359> my simple answers of course [20:43] <Narya> By something more than that .. maybe a bit like Harry's ability to speak Parseltongue [20:43] <Aislinn> its probably still lying in pieces at the base of his trunk, yes? [20:43] <Narya> good one though, harryfreak [20:43] <Narya> yes, I think it is [20:43] <Expelliarmas> Hermione or Hagrid will somehow fix the mirror. Maybe Spellotape. [20:43] <harryfreak359> probably [20:43] <Narya> He'll remember about it when he needs it [20:44] <Aislinn> they could just use reparo [20:44] <magicmeg8> Will ghosts be used in the next book in any way, do you think?** [20:44] <harryfreak359> actually I have a theory on this now too [20:44] <Narya> Yes, I think so [20:44] <Narya> Nick for one [20:44] <Aislinn> if they remember it is there [20:44] <Expelliarmas> well, let's have your theory, we're running out of time [20:44] <harryfreak359> yeah Narya! [20:44] <Narya> sorry, guys, no - I shouldn't have mentioned it ... that's for another chat [20:45] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> LOL Narya - you're on - don't deny us now! [20:45] <magicmeg8> Well, I hope you can share it at another time, Narya, it sounds interesting smile. [20:45] <Aislinn> well, suggest the topic in the corner booth forum, so we can get it on the chat narya! [20:45] <Expelliarmas> is this the topic for the next chat? Narya's theory? I'll be there. [20:45] <Narya> I will ... thanks Meg [20:45] <magicmeg8> Only 15 minutes left, everyone! This has been a great chat! I want to remind you all that this transcript can be found at the new Corner Booth Forum (http://www.leakylounge.com/index.php?showforum=184). If you'd like to read more on Talking to the Dead, check out http://www.leakylounge.com/Portraits-Living-Dead-t26606.html . [20:45] <harryfreak359> me too! [20:45] <Expelliarmas> can we add Narya's theory to the vote for the next chat? [20:46] <harryfreak359> yeah! [20:46] <Aislinn> sure [20:46] <magicmeg8> This chat will continue at the in the Rune Field of the Chamber of Chat (http://www.chamberofchat.com/chat/enter.asp) [20:46] <harryfreak359> it would be fun to talk about it [20:46] <Expelliarmas> once we know what it is. [20:46] <Aislinn> lol [20:46] <harryfreak359> yeah [20:46] <Narya> goodness, what have I started ... ??? [20:46] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> poor, poor Narya [20:46] <magicmeg8> Haha, Narya. [20:46] <Narya> I'll survive biggrin [20:46] <harryfreak359> lol [20:46] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> bet you wish you didn't let your fingers do the walkin' [20:46] <magicmeg8> Final thoughts on communicating with the dead, everyone? [20:47] <Expelliarmas> you've opened pandora's box. [20:47] <Narya> yes, GFAB [20:47] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> LOL!!! [20:47] <Narya> Important for book seven [20:47] <harryfreak359> lol [20:47] <harryfreak359> agreed very important [20:47] <hermeeownee> narya, - can you give me a once sentence catch up? [20:47] <Narya> oh no, Meg and Aislinn will kill me ... I'll post it, promise [20:47] <magicmeg8> We haven't heard the theory yet, hermeeownee smile. [20:47] <Expelliarmas> Final thoughts ... Narya's theory, whatever it is, turns out to be true and results in Harry speaking with Sirius/RAB. [20:47] <Narya> Luna gave a good clue [20:48] <Narya> not bad, Expell [20:48] <Expelliarmas> getting hotter or colder? [20:48] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Narya scrambles to make up theory [20:48] *** Winky05 has quit [Bye] [20:48] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> tongue [20:48] <Narya> Luna is very important - she knows the dead are beyond the veil [20:48] <Narya> No, it's written down biggrin [20:48] * harryfreak359 glares at Narya for holding her in suspense [20:48] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> LOLOLOL [20:48] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> This is me being baaaaad [20:48] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> sorry [20:48] <Narya> resolves NEVER to come to chat again and upset the CB people [20:49] <magicmeg8> I think that's a good point -- Narya -- Luna does seem to know quite a lot about the universe -- she may be our guide. [20:49] <hermeeownee> but harry could hear them too, right? [20:49] <harryfreak359> lol [20:49] <Aislinn> no, narya! [20:49] <Narya> yes, I think she might [20:49] <Aislinn> we love having you here [20:49] <Narya> She's very attached to her mother [20:49] <magicmeg8> Yes, he could, hermeeownee. [20:49] <Narya> oh, thank you - [20:49] <harryfreak359> yes Narya don't stop coming! [20:49] <Narya> She loved her [20:49] <Narya> no, I won't biggrin [20:49] <magicmeg8> good, good smile [20:49] <Expelliarmas> especially since you haven't coughed up your theory! [20:49] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Everyone vote to keep Narya in! [20:49] <harryfreak359> good biggrin [20:50] <magicmeg8> Make sure you all DO vote for the next WWC topic smile [20:50] <harryfreak359> of course! [20:50] <Expelliarmas> are we voting people of the island? [20:50] <hermeeownee> ALL IN FAVOR - SAY AYE!!! [20:50] <harryfreak359> I already did [20:50] <Expelliarmas> aye [20:50] <Aislinn> so, are we going to see a trip back to the veil in book 7? [20:50] <harryfreak359> AYE! [20:50] <magicmeg8> thanks, harryfreak [20:50] <Narya> yes, I think we will [20:50] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> wonders which way to vote* [20:50] * Lizzieangel90 has joined #lounge [20:50] <harryfreak359> np [20:50] <Narya> it's too important [20:50] <Aislinn> I think we will definitely go back to the MoM [20:50] <Narya> and very mysterious [20:50] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> eeny meeny acka packa r a dominacka [20:51] <harryfreak359> agrees with aislinn [20:51] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> okay - Narya stays! [20:51] <Expelliarmas> that veil is a problem, the mystery has to be solved somehow. [20:51] <harryfreak359> Yay for Narya! [20:51] <magicmeg8> I agree expel -- definitely seems to be a loose end at the moment. [20:51] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Narya rules! [20:51] <Aislinn> the love room will come into play too, I think [20:51] <Narya> definitely [20:51] <harryfreak359> yeah for sure [20:52] * Lizzieangel90 has quit [Bye] [20:52] <Narya> Lily has a connection there - I hope [20:52] <Expelliarmas> Sirius simply disappeared and never got to say goodbye. [20:52] <Aislinn> me too - we need to hear more about her, or hopefully , from her [20:52] *** DemetryCarrington has joined #lounge [20:52] <harryfreak359> yeah [20:52] <Narya> He didn't, but in a way, he didn't need to [20:52] <DemetryCarrington> Is this thing still on??? [20:52] <Narya> Harry knows how much Sirius loved him [20:52] <hermeeownee> does anyone think there will be a way for Harry to speak to his parents - what will he find in Godrick's hollow? [20:52] <Aislinn> people often don't get a chance to say goodbye [20:52] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Yes - I wonder if there are any portraits at the Hollow? [20:52] <harryfreak359> because he his coming back in book 7 right? [20:53] <magicmeg8> Only for about 8 min, Demetry [20:53] <magicmeg8> smile [20:53] <Narya> no, he's dead [20:53] <Narya> unfortunately biggrin [20:53] <Expelliarmas> the house at Godric's Hollow was destroyed, wasn't it? [20:53] <DemetryCarrington> Ok cool, as long as I get to talk lol [20:53] <Narya> yes [20:53] <Aislinn> it sounded like godric's hollow was blown up - [20:53] <harryfreak359> i don't believe that [20:53] <Narya> in ruins [20:53] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> not sure expel [20:53] <DemetryCarrington> It burnt down [20:53] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> can't recall [20:53] <Narya> JKR confirmed it, harryfreak [20:53] <Narya> it's in one of her interviews [20:53] <Narya> The one with Paxman, I think [20:53] <harryfreak359> he'll come back in some form, Naray [20:53] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> ah, okay [20:53] <harryfreak359> Narya* [20:53] <Expelliarmas> What happens when Harry visits his parents' graves? He's never been, has he? [20:53] <Narya> in Harry's heart, yes [20:54] <Narya> he's never been [20:54] <Narya> we don't know where they are [20:54] <harryfreak359> did anyone ever think they may be inferi? [20:54] <Expelliarmas> I thought they were buried at godric's hollow? [20:54] <Aislinn> noooooo [20:54] <Narya> no, definitely not [20:54] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> eww - no HF [20:54] <Narya> Inferi, definitely not [20:54] <Expelliarmas> Oh, gag, the potters as infieri! [20:55] <Narya> Not the message JKR wants to convey [20:55] <Aislinn> definitely not [20:55] <harryfreak359> one of my strange theories [20:55] <DemetryCarrington> How do inferi come to be, are they made with a spell on the dead or is it something else??? Sorry lol i missed the discussion [20:55] * harryfreak359 has quit [Bye] [20:55] <Narya> interesting, but no biggrin [20:55] * milkmamma has joined #lounge [20:55] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> I believe so Demetry [20:55] <Narya> The dead are animated [20:55] <DemetryCarrington> How? [20:55] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> under some sort of enchantment [20:55] <Aislinn> probably with a spell [20:55] <Narya> Minerva knows [20:55] <Narya> in one of the books [20:55] <DemetryCarrington> How does she know?? [20:56] <Narya> Transfiguration class [20:56] <hermeeownee> how do we know that minerva knows? [20:56] <Expelliarmas> Snape knows, but Harry isn't speaking with him right now. [20:56] <Narya> someone help me out [20:56] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> not to mention a wickedly strong pickling agent smile [20:56] <magicmeg8> Just a reminder that we have 5 minutes left. Thanks for joining us, guys smile [20:56] <Narya> Inamatus Conjurus spell [20:56] <Narya> that's it I think [20:56] <DemetryCarrington> Herme, do you know The Remus Lupins <-- random [20:56] <Aislinn> very good narya! [20:56] * MissMune has joined #lounge [20:56] <Aislinn> how did you pull that one out? [20:56] <Aislinn> :D [20:56] <Narya> can't spell it though [20:56] <Aislinn> biggrin [20:56] <hermeeownee> yes [20:56] <Expelliarmas> She has it tucked away with her theory. [20:57] <Narya> my memory has this stuff flying about biggrin [20:57] * Lizzieangel90 has joined #lounge [20:57] <DemetryCarrington> Realy!!! That's so cool Herme, do you by any chance know his AIM??? lol [20:57] <Narya> She set them it for homework or something [20:57] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> makes note to never put Narya under hypnosis scary [20:57] <Narya> so why did she do that? [20:57] <Narya> oh dear biggrin [20:57] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> LOL [20:57] <Narya> my mind is a scary place biggrin [20:57] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> you walked into that one tongue [20:58] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> I sincerely doubt that [20:58] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> brilliant yes, but scary? nah [20:58] <DemetryCarrington> Scary, i would have said confuzing lol [20:58] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> awww [20:58] <Narya> remains to be seen biggrin [20:59] <DemetryCarrington> lol [20:59] <magicmeg8> Remember that this will continue at the Chamber of Chat smile -- Rune Field. [20:59] <Narya> timelag, sorry [20:59] <DemetryCarrington> So there is a discussion right now about if JKR is on the lounge, i think its JRBack, or something like that, it has to be [20:59] <Aislinn> its been lots of fun - hope to see you all again on Saturday - have 2 chats then [21:00] <Expelliarmas> good night everyone. Even you, Narya, who would not reveal "the theory." [21:00] <Narya> see you all then biggrin [21:00] <magicmeg8> Yep, time to end, everyone! [21:00] <DemetryCarrington> LATER!!!!!!!!! [21:00] <DemetryCarrington> lol [21:00] <hermeeownee> bye guys [21:00] <Narya> I will, then I run for it biggrin [21:00] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> night everyone - great chat - thanks! [21:00] <Aislinn> bye everyone! [21:00] <Narya> bye - and thanks! [21:00] <DemetryCarrington> Goodbye all Turns and runs away very fast [21:00] * DemetryCarrington has quit [Bye] [21:00] * milkmamma has quit [Bye] [21:00] * Ginny-From-A-Bottle has quit [Bye] [21:01] * MissMune has quit [Bye] [21:01] * Expelliarmas left #lounge [] [21:01] * Narya has quit [Bye] [21:01] * hermeeownee has quit [Bye] [21:01] <Lizzieangel90> oh bye [21:01] <Lizzieangel90> lol [21:01] <Lizzieangel90> sorry [21:01] <magicmeg8> haha by lizzieliz [21:01] <Lizzieangel90> adios [21:01] * Lizzieangel90 has quit [Bye]

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