The age of chivalry?, Is it dead, or alive and kicking? |
 Jan 2 2009, 07:02 PM
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One Half of the DDD  Posts: 8,943 Joined: 5:31pm August 30, 2006 Location: Siriusly Dreaming Somewhere   |
Chivalry, as defined on Yourdictionary.com is
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Willoughby performs an act of chivalry by rescuing Marianne from the elements, when she falls while out walking, and taking her home and yet his basic character is anything but gallant. Would he have helped Marianne if she hadn't been young and pretty? Colonel Brandon is in love with Marianne but knows that she is in love with Willoughby. He does nothing to try to win her away from Willoughby but waits patiently until their relationship is over. Did this surprise you? What do you think this says about Brandon's character? What other acts of chivalry struck you in this book? How does the definition of chivalry and these acts relate to today's society? Have you experienced acts of chivalry and how did you feel about that? Is chivalry really dead, or can feminism and chivalry co-exist in a modern society? This post has been edited by Pyxis: Jan 15 2009, 11:24 AM --------------------  March's Book Nook: The Little White Horse by Elizabeth Goudge/Skellig by David Almond "THEN YOU SHOULD HAVE DIED!" roared Black. "DIED RATHER THAN BETRAY YOUR FRIENDS, AS WE WOULD HAVE DONE FOR YOU!" |
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Jan 4 2009, 09:13 PM
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Doctor Filibuster's Junior Assistant  Posts: 1,963 Joined: 8:57am March 12, 2005 Location: at Home or somewhere in between |
QUOTE(Dreamteam @ Jan 2 2009, 07:02 PM)  Chivalry, as defined on Yourdictionary.com is QUOTE
Willoughby performs an act of chivalry by rescuing Marianne from the elements, when she falls while out walking, and taking her home and yet his basic character is anything but gallant. Would he have helped Marianne if she hadn't been young and pretty? I think he might have, considering that she was dressed as a lady, but if she wasn't young and pretty, I doubt that he would have pursued a relationship with her. Helping an older lady or spinster would certainly have bolstered up his social status, as his chivalrous actions would have made the social gossip circles, but I do think that it didn't hurt that Marianne was a very eligible (though currently financially disadvantaged) member of an "old" and "respected" family. She personifies the quintessential "Damsel in Distress", which appealed greatly to Willoughby's sensibilities in desiring to be considered (and as we later find out a "reformed") "Man of Great Merit". QUOTE Is chivalry really dead, or can feminism and chivalry co-exist in a modern society? I don't think chivalry is dead, but we need to find a balance between what constitutes "male" and "female" expectations, and what we should be doing for "people" in general. Feminism is the opposite extreme of Chivalry, like Sense is the polar opposite to Sensibility...we cannot be happy until we find a balance between the two in being taken "seriously", but knowing when to lighten our hearts and just enjoy each other as fellow human beings. As Elinor and Marianne show us in the story, both coexist within each of us, whether we are male or female...and it is when we allow ourselves to express our whole selves, that we truly find ourselves in the end. -------------------- Avatar made with Poser 6 and Photoshop Elements
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Jan 9 2009, 10:28 PM
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Exclusive distributor of The Dungbomb Protection Kit Posts: 2,642 Joined: 10:52pm March 5, 2007  |
QUOTE(momwitch @ Jan 4 2009, 07:13 PM) I think he might have, considering that she was dressed as a lady, but if she wasn't young and pretty, I doubt that he would have pursued a relationship with her. Helping an older lady or spinster would certainly have bolstered up his social status, as his chivalrous actions would have made the social gossip circles, but I do think that it didn't hurt that Marianne was a very eligible (though currently financially disadvantaged) member of an "old" and "respected" family. She personifies the quintessential "Damsel in Distress", which appealed greatly to Willoughby's sensibilities in desiring to be considered (and as we later find out a "reformed") "Man of Great Merit". I agree with this, I think that Willoughby would have helped anyone, but the attention paid to her afterwards was a result of her eligible status. I think in Jane Austen's time, being chivalrous was the very definition of being a gentleman, in fact, even the word "gentle man" connotates a polite, considerate person...someone sensitive to the needs of a lady. Willoughby, after treating Marianne's affection lightly, should no longer be considered a 'gentleman'. QUOTE Is chivalry really dead, or can feminism and chivalry co-exist in a modern society? I think this is an interesting question. I have a twelve year old boy, and I have been trying to teach him to hold the door open for me and his sisters. His question...why should I be the one to hold the door open, when you can do it just as well as me? So now, really, how do I answer that? I want him to respect women on a different level than a man, not condescending, but rather honoring the role of wife and mother. I want him to want to protect, because I wonder if it is this basic instinct to protect that ties a man to home and family. Perhaps it is too fine of a line to draw...teaching a boy to show signs of respect to a woman that assumes their inability to do something. I think it is Colonel Brandon's chivalry that earns Elinor's esteem. When she learns of the protection he has given his ward, even to the risking of his life to avenge her lost honor, it is after that knowledge that she trusts him completely. |
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Jan 10 2009, 07:03 AM
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Getting Fitted for New Dress Robes Posts: 42 Joined: 11:28pm July 10, 2005 |
Its been dead and buried for the last 5 decades ;D hehe
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Jan 13 2009, 09:29 PM
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Exclusive distributor of The Dungbomb Protection Kit Posts: 2,642 Joined: 10:52pm March 5, 2007 |
Well, I wouldn't say it's dead. I just wonder if the definition has changed. What do you say, girls? Do you like a guy to open the door for you? Give up his seat? Pick up the bill?
Guys...do you think it's fair for women to expect preferential treatment in this age of do-it-yourself? |
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Jan 14 2009, 03:48 AM
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Shopping for a New Firebolt Posts: 809 Joined: 4:31am June 18, 2007 |
The only thing I would find unfair would be if I was gentlemanly or chivalric to a girl and then be accused of being sexist lol. I suppose some qualities of chivalry are technically sexist, but if what you are doing is positive, is it still sexism?
OK yeah, technically I think chivalry can be unfair. Like if a man gives a girl his seat just because she is a girl, that would be unfair to a guy who might need the seat more. But isn't the fact that it is unfair to guys what makes it noble? -------------------- -Roses are #FF0000, Violets are #0000FF. All my base Are belong to you.
-My HP wallpaper gallery on deviantART- -My Houndbite Piano Profile- |
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Jan 14 2009, 09:40 AM
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Triwizard Champ of the Lily and Stag Inn  Posts: 2,122 Joined: 8:34am April 9, 2008 Location: Swimming in lunacy   |
QUOTE(Pyxis @ Jan 13 2009, 09:29 PM) Well, I wouldn't say it's dead. I just wonder if the definition has changed. What do you say, girls? Do you like a guy to open the door for you? I wouldn't quite say its dead either, perhaps say it has taken a battering over the last few years. This day and age of cynicism has people thinking 'whats he after' etc Personally I like guys holding open doors and not because its a chivalrous thing to do but because its the polite thing to do. I would never dream of letting a door close in someones face. Nothing ruder. More or less it's what you are raised to behave like. My dads in his 60's now so he is the type to hold open doors, walk on the side of the pavement that closest the traffic. Its just the done thing for men of his age. I love Stephen Frys comment he made about Peter Crushing, went something like 'he was one of the rare few men that would still greet a woman by kissing the back of her hand' (i get the feeling some men would get a slap if they start trying that again, least around here  )
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Jan 14 2009, 01:02 PM
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The Other Half of the DDD Posts: 5,391 Joined: 10:10am March 16, 2007 Location: Marauding with Moony, Padfoot and Prongs |
QUOTE(Sirius_Craic @ Jan 14 2009, 02:40 PM) I love Stephen Frys comment he made about Peter Crushing, went something like 'he was one of the rare few men that would still greet a woman by kissing the back of her hand' (i get the feeling some men would get a slap if they start trying that again, least around here )Haha, yes, unfortunately I think a slap is the most likely reaction a man would get for doing that nowadays. I think Pyxis has a point when she says that chivalry hasn't necessarily died out - the barriers have just been moved a little. Women in Jane Austen's time were a world away from today's women. We are taught to think for ourselves, be independent, and not to have to rely on men to do things for us. (well, I was taught that, I can't speak for every female) My point is, I reckon there are a lot of men who would be perfectly willing to hold doors open for ladies, or give up their seats, etc, but it seems that in today's society women are more likely to take offence at such an action because they think it's sexist. As women have gained their independence they are no longer relying on men to take care of them, and I suppose those who do take offence feel that in some way their status as a free and independent woman is somehow being belittled by such actions. I've got no problem with men holding open doors, etc. To me, it's politeness, not sexism. I certainly don't expect preferential treatment, but if I'm given it, I see no reason to complain. How can I complain about good manners? I think that chivalry and feminism have a bit of a rough time going together in today's world. There doesn't seem to be a balance between the two. --------------------   Jo's Book Nook is now reading Skellig by David Almond and The Little White Horse by Elizabeth Goudge. Come and join in the discussions here! Snape and Slytherin icons by princessbloomy@livejournal |
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Jan 14 2009, 03:22 PM
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Professional Diagon Alley Window Shopper Posts: 72 Joined: 10:45am November 9, 2008 |
As a girl, I was brought up to open doors for people in general - especially if they were carrying bags - and to give up my seat on the bus to anyone older.
A woman should also surely stop to help someone who sprained their ankle, although only a stonger person can carry home a lighter person. And a woman can certainly hold back from expressing their own feelings for someone in order to not interfere with an existing relationship. In fact Elinor does exactly that when she learns of Lucy Steele's claims on Edward. I would suggest that we should separate chivalry, as in noble qualities such as courage, honour and a readiness to help the weak and protect the oppressed, from old-fashioned gentlemen's manners in such things as opening doors, walking on the outside of pavements, kissing hands... I wouldn't call the old-fashioned manners sexist, although sometimes they are used as such by a sexist person. I think there actually were practical reasons for many of them in Victorian times. But they are more of a carrying on of tradition by those who follow them now than they are of practical use to the ladies concerned. And I can perfectly well imagine a chivalrous and considerate person unaware of these customs but still showing their automatic consideration in their everyday manners. With regard to Willoughby, I think you are right and he might have stopped to help any lady, because that was the done thing. But suppose that a farm-worker from the village had sprained their ankle, then I think Colonel Brandon would stop (or Mrs Dashwood or any of her daughters, or Edward, or Sir John, or Mrs Jennings etc) but that Willoughby would not (nor Lady Middleton, nor any of the rest of the Ferrars family etc, etc). And that, I think, would be an effective test of their chivalry. Edit: And Colonel Brandon's need to fight a duel, and call honour satisfied even though they both came away unhurt, seems to me to have been old-fashioned manners in Napoleonic times. Certainly that is how Elinor seems to have regarded it. I think that she was more impressed by his concern for Eliza, his willingness to suffer gossip in order to care for her, and the way he rushed to her aid when she wrote for help. This post has been edited by Fourmagpies: Jan 15 2009, 07:28 AM |
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Jan 14 2009, 09:50 PM
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Fudge-Maker at Florean Fortescue's Posts: 2,228 Joined: 9:13pm February 18, 2005 |
QUOTE(Pyxis @ Jan 9 2009, 10:28 PM) I think this is an interesting question. I have a twelve year old boy, and I have been trying to teach him to hold the door open for me and his sisters. His question...why should I be the one to hold the door open, when you can do it just as well as me? So now, really, how do I answer that? I want him to respect women on a different level than a man, not condescending, but rather honoring the role of wife and mother. I want him to want to protect, because I wonder if it is this basic instinct to protect that ties a man to home and family. Perhaps it is too fine of a line to draw...teaching a boy to show signs of respect to a woman that assumes their inability to do something. I think you just need to reinforce the idea that "it's the polite thing to do". At least that's what I'd stress. That it's just part of manners. Or maybe you could ask him, "If he wants to be thought of as a gentleman?" That way you're not pressing him do it if he doesn't want to, but if he wants to be thought of as polite, it might give him more incentive knowing that it's trait looked favorably upon. QUOTE(Pyxis @ Jan 13 2009, 09:29 PM) Well, I wouldn't say it's dead. I just wonder if the definition has changed. What do you say, girls? Do you like a guy to open the door for you? Give up his seat? Pick up the bill? I think society has made it difficult to tell these what exactly the definition. Some people are genuine. Other use these sort tactics only in the hope of gaining. I've heard so many times where men expect a woman to sleep with them just because they bought them dinner.  And while there's good guys out there, I think more and more women tend to believe good guys don't exist anymore. I think it's hard for women not be defensive and distrustful of men. It'd help if we didn't have to constantly guess whether or not you're sincere, or just out to use us. And I know it can go both ways. It's just sad that so many people expect to go so far for giving so little.QUOTE(Fourmagpies @ Jan 14 2009, 03:22 PM) As a girl, I was brought up to open doors for people in general - especially if they were carrying bags - and to give up my seat on the bus to anyone older. I was taught this too. They don't even need to be carrying something. If you're right behind me, I'll hold the door open. If you do so for me, I'll say "thank you". It's an effortless common courtesy. I don't see any reason not to do such simple little things. --------------------  |
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