The official webforum of the The-Leaky-Cauldron.org LeakyNews.com: Leaky Info | Potter News | Features | Interactive | Galleries | The Books | The Films | For Fun

Leaky Lounge

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )
The Rules : FAQ : Search : Member List : Sitemap

Forum News: New Book Nook now open, discussing J D Salinger's "The Catcher in the Rye"
Hot Thread: Stand In Line! The Harry Potter Theme Park/Ride!
Mod Thread: Nominate an Actor/Actress of the Month to discuss

3 Pages V  < 1 2 3  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
The age of chivalry?, Is it dead, or alive and kicking?
Modern chivalry.
You cannot see the results of the poll until you have voted. Please login and cast your vote to see the results of this poll.
Total Votes: 16
Guests cannot vote 
Lady Lovegood
post Jan 22 2009, 09:54 PM
Post #21
Fudge-Maker at Florean Fortescue's


***

Posts: 2,225
Joined: 9:13pm February 18, 2005








QUOTE(momwitch @ Jan 19 2009, 05:13 PM) *
Thank you for your comments, Aphrodites Lady! smile.gif As I'm reading through S&S, I'm finding more references to "keeping up appearances" as I see it, to enforce a sense of control over how people interacted with each other...similar to what I saw in Snow Flower and the Secret Fan. In Snow Flower, the language that was used between the women was considered "beneath" the regard of men, so they "allowed" it, whilst not knowing that their behavior was actually being recorded and documented. In a way, though the women were physically controlled and "restrained", emotionally and mentally, they were a lot freer - especially in having a language that conveyed so much, yet was beneath the radar of those that chalked it off as being "women's language", and paid it nor further heed; their honor was kept "intact".


Well, where exactly did women stand in world at the time? Women weren't equal to men, but were they beneath them? And if so, by how much?

I'm sorry. I'm really trying to understand your meaning. But it's hard to see which society is what way. I having a hard time seeing one distinctly from the other.

I do agree that the reputation of women in China at that time were better protected than the women of Austen's era. I guess women could be themselves, so long as they didn't trouble their men in doing so. It's almost as if Chinese women were just a showpiece for their husbands.


QUOTE
I see the opposite happening in S&S, however. The women were free to pay social calls and be physically seen in the outside world, but how they interacted was severely contrived. For example, take this passage in what would now be revealed (and not revealed) to Marianne and Willoughby's mutual whereabouts in polite conversation and society:

QUOTE
From all danger of seeing Willoughby again, her mother considered her to be at least equally safe in town as in the country, since his aquaintance must now be dropped by all who called themselves her friends. Design could never bring them in each other's way: negligence could never leave them exposed to a surprise; and chance had less in its favour in the crowd of London than even in the retirement of Barton, where it might force him before her while paying that visit at Allenham on his marriage, which Mrs Dashwood, from foreseeing at first as a probable event, had brought herself to expect as a certain one.


It seemed that each must be dead to the other, while they were both very much alive and about in the World. In "deference" to Marianne, Willoughby's name must not be mentioned in her presence - as if that portion of her life never existed. If they were to go to a party, the host or hostess must be sure not to invite the other, for fear of a social breech of etiquette. This, while seemingly is done to "protect" the other's "honor", actually violates the extreme privacy of both of them, as Marianne's misfortune becomes a much talked about event that is essentially perpetuated for the rest of her life. By these social norms, she is actually forcibly restricted from ever truly recovering from it, rather than it be a romantic bump in the road, which she could look upon in fondness in her old age as the folly of her youth. She is unable to confront her heartache (and the one responsible for it) and move on with her life, why?


I wonder how different things really are though today? It seems that more westward societies thrive on gossip, and there's a tendency to never let it die. Even when things should be forgotten, they're often not. We're too in love with scandal, and knowing everyone else's business.

I think big factor though is, how one exactly would define, honor. I'm not sure how exactly western societies would define honor. ponder.gif But I've read many more stories about eastern cultures than western ones actually. Besides that, I get the impression that honor is still very important to eastern cultures. Whereas, I think that has much changed in western cultures, and some people probably don't believe that "the notion of honor", is even important at all in today's world.

Honor in the eastern cultures runs deep. It effects the entire family. Much thought is given to ancestors, and how future generations will be impacted. These issues might've been contemplated somewhat during Austen's time, but I'm sure that they were held to this degree.


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
Profile CardPMEmail Poster
+Quote Post
momwitch
post Jan 23 2009, 05:42 PM
Post #22
Doctor Filibuster's Junior Assistant


***

Posts: 1,963
Joined: 8:57am March 12, 2005
Location: at Home or somewhere in between




















QUOTE(Aphrodites Lady @ Jan 22 2009, 09:54 PM) *
Well, where exactly did women stand in world at the time? Women weren't equal to men, but were they beneath them? And if so, by how much?

I'm sorry. I'm really trying to understand your meaning. But it's hard to see which society is what way. I having a hard time seeing one distinctly from the other.

I do agree that the reputation of women in China at that time were better protected than the women of Austen's era. I guess women could be themselves, so long as they didn't trouble their men in doing so. It's almost as if Chinese women were just a showpiece for their husbands.


I guess what I'm really trying to say is that they really aren't any "different" in what they ultimately do - which would place me in agreement with you. It is merely how we define what as more "restraining". In China, through the practice of footbinding, the women were physically restrained as in being hobbled, but in the West, where footbinding was considered "barbaric", there was still an extreme amount of emotional restraint, by not letting the feelings be expressed without an extreme form of social protocol. There is a history behind the stereotype of having "a stuff upper lip". mellow.gif Let me try to explain:

I've finished reading S&S, and was extremely let down by the ending. It isn't that I was upset with Marianne ending up with Colonel Brandon, I did think that he was the best match for her, but it is almost to say that with her "infectious fever", she burned off her passions. We are left with a shell of the former person without much substance remaining. With Willoughby elevating her (in his mind) to a Madonna-like, untouchable mystique (in the classical sense! lol wink.gif ), a big dis-service is done to Marianne. As a result, Willoughby redeems himself again at her expense, by personifying the ideal of the truly chivalrous man. He adores his untouchable Lady singing her praises from afar, and becomes honorable in the eyes of Society. Marianne on the other hand, becomes the dutiful and forebearing wife because her spirit is squelched. Finishing the book, I sighed and wished that Marianne didn't become a Stepford Wife.

To me, S&S is not only the story of two sisters, but a commentary on social redemption from a man's point of view. This isn't to say that Jane Austen was a man, but that her writing survived because it was painfully honest in its exposition, rather than taking on the feminine mystique of veiling the reality of what she was saying. It is a chivalrous man's duty to protect and defend the appearance of what his Lady stood for, even in the face of her deception...such as exemplified with John Dashwood's defense of Fanny to his sisters, and Edward's forfeiting of his birthright so that Lucy's honor was maintained - even though he no longer loved her.

As an aside, while I was writing this, I thought of the name Lucy Steele and what Jane Austen might have meant by giving her blatently and obviously hardened obstacle to Elinor's happiness a name such as this. wink.gif


--------------------
Avatar made with Poser 6 and Photoshop Elements
Go to the top of the page
Profile CardPMEmail Poster
+Quote Post
Shard
post Jan 24 2009, 08:59 AM
Post #23
Stargazing on the Astronomy Tower


Group Icon

Posts: 3,900
Joined: 8:04pm September 28, 2005
Location: Astronomy Tower













QUOTE(MysteryloverAnne @ Jan 17 2009, 08:34 PM) *
QUOTE(momwitch @ Jan 17 2009, 05:26 PM) *
Where do you think this etiquette had its origins? Do you think it was originally embraced by women in developing a language of their "own", which men would be reluctant to participate in except to do their "duty"? I read a book a while back called "Snow Flower and the Secret Fan" which focused on "secret" languages that women used, in this case, it was China. It would seem that this male/female co-existing in different worlds transcends cultural barriers. ponder.gif


Without reading that book, I would venture to guess it has its origins in maintaining order in society. In both the general sense in that we can't have people just taking whatever they want when they want it or engaging in inappropriate behavior in public; and in the more specific sense of the order or 'rank' of the individual in relationship to the others around them. Like many things that 'protect', it can also have a restraining influence.


There's a reason this was called the Victorian age, Queen Victoria of England it seems established alot of these rules.


--------------------



"We need metaphors of magic and monsters in order to understand the human condition."-Stephen Donaldson

"One of the greatest talents in the world is to never say two words when one will do."
Go to the top of the page
Profile CardPMEmail Poster
+Quote Post
momwitch
post Jan 30 2009, 07:06 AM
Post #24
Doctor Filibuster's Junior Assistant


***

Posts: 1,963
Joined: 8:57am March 12, 2005
Location: at Home or somewhere in between




















If I remember correctly, Queen Victoria was quite the vivacious and independent minded young lady and it was her husband, Prince Albert, who influenced her (through their legendary mutual affection)to adopt the more strict protocols that her court became known for. (here) cool.gif


--------------------
Avatar made with Poser 6 and Photoshop Elements
Go to the top of the page
Profile CardPMEmail Poster
+Quote Post

3 Pages V  < 1 2 3
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 

Sorting for Half-Blood Prince is open! Click here to join!
Coming Up:
Join the chat! Saturday 1-3pm Of Power, Magic, and Government
Come right in to the Shrieking Shack Arcade!
Shopping at the Cauldron Shop supports this forum!
IPS Driver Error

IPS Driver Error

There appears to be an error with the database.
You can try to refresh the page by clicking here