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daemons and patronuses, are they reflective
DorisTLC
post Mar 9 2008, 06:10 PM
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In Harry Potter we see many character's Patronuses. Harry's is a stag which is representative of his father and his protection, Snape's is a doe, reflective of his one true love.

Lyra has a daemon that changes shape, but reflects her personality. Servants have daemons that are always dogs.

Do you think there is a relationship between the two? What are examples from each book that help us compare the daemon is GC/NL with the patronuses of the Harry Potter series?


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sherman
post Mar 22 2008, 01:00 PM
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QUOTE(DorisTLC @ Mar 9 2008, 06:10 PM) *
Do you think there is a relationship between the two? What are examples from each book that help us compare the daemon is GC/NL with the patronuses of the Harry Potter series?
We know that Lyra's dæmon changes form to reflect her emotional feelings at the time or through necessity. In HP a person's patronus can also change because of an emotional upheaval. In HBP, Tonks patronus changed form to a werewolf because she was in love with Remus. So there is a connection between the two, that a patronus, and a dæmon are reflective of the persons emotional state. biggrin.gif


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sakurabranch
post Mar 22 2008, 01:14 PM
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hmm, i think outwardly deamons and patronus may have a few similarities but when we get right down to it a patronus is just a spell- it provides comfort (hence repelling dementors), but only because the caster of the patronus has put so much effort into thinking of something happy while producing the patronus- in fact in situations when a patronus is used like this isnt it just magnifying the feeling that the caster has put into it? Patronus can also take messages another example of the caster putting part of themselves (a message this time as opposed to just the happy emotion) into spell, a spell that requires you to put so much of the witch or wizard casting it is also bound to change if and when the wizard experiences changes.
The Daemons however are not just a reflection of what his human is or what he is feeling, but is actually part of the human himself, and while his apperence may reflect this perhaps in a similar way to how the patronus form reflects this, we mustnt forget that the daemons also seem to have a concienseness of their very own.


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hufflepuff_hunny
post Mar 22 2008, 02:11 PM
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I have thought about the daemons in GC. I thought there was a link between the animagi animal and deamons. I never thought about the patronus. James could turn into a stag, Peter into a rat but then I thought of Sirius as a dog. Since servants daemons are dogs therefore Sirius would make be a servant and I dont see him in that role.
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LizetM
post Mar 22 2008, 02:38 PM
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I think in the sense of representing your personality and your inner self, daemons and patronuses are sorta alike, however, when it comes down to it, one is a real, touchable thing that you can interact with and that shares your feeling with, while the other is just a spell who pretty much does what you tell it to do. Your daemon is that little voice inside your head that helps you out of difficult situations, represented in the form of an animal ... a very REAL animal. Patronuses are forms of animals, but they are essentially smoke ... ok, lol, not smoke, but you know, they got back to nothing after their task is done. smile.gif


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MsJava
post Mar 22 2008, 11:29 PM
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Well don't forget, your deamon has a leash. It can only go a short distance before you start to feel it. It's painful, and I always felt it would feel like your heart was breaking. Though if I remember correctly, the books describe it as your soul ripping.

As far the slaves daemons being dogs, in Lyra world, there is a social caste system. So naturally, when you're stuck in a caste system, the lower you are, the less options you have. So I would assume that at some point, anything other than a deamon in the form of a dog became unacceptable. Those further north, the foot soliders at least all had wolves. A less domesticated version of the dog.

Though for those a bit more fortunate I think it's form is an aspect of your personailty, much like HP's various Patronus. (Those I always found it cute that Hermonie's was an otter, a member of the weasel family. I loved the subtle hint that she always dug Ron) :-)


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davidenglish
post Mar 23 2008, 12:09 PM
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Well, I think there's definitely a link with Jung's concept of Anima/Animus. The daemon is always of the opposite sex and reflects, just as a patronus does, the dominant characteristic of the person's soul.

BTW, I don't recall there being slaves in GC/NL. The servants do have dog daemons, but there's nothing particularly demeaning about a dog --well, unless you're a cat person.

There can, of course, be ambiguous interpretations to each of the daemons that we see. Mrs Coulter's golden monkey is particularly frightening as he may represent curiosity, cunning, or cruelty. I can see a reference to both the clever Monkey King of Chinese folktales and to the flying monkeys of the Wicked Witch of the West.

This post has been edited by davidenglish: Mar 23 2008, 12:10 PM


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hedwig2323
post Mar 23 2008, 08:34 PM
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Another point about daemons being more 'real' than patronuses is that daemons seem to be able to act upon the physical world or changing situations while patronuses seem much more limited in that respect. An example would be that Snape's silver doe was able to lead Harry to the pool, but she did not leave any tracks in the snow. Serafina's Kaisa, however, was able to cover up Lyra's footprints in the snow at Bolvanger when they set the severed daemons free. Of course patronuses do ward off dementers, but at the moment I can't think of one example in any of the HP books where a patronus actually had a two-sided conversation with the recipient of the message or had an effect on its physical surroundings. The silver doe came the closest to interacting, though, in that she waited for Harry to start following her before she turned towards the forest, but then Snape was there behind the trees directing her.


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{{voldy}}
post Mar 23 2008, 09:56 PM
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Yeah, going too far from your dæmon is like your soul, and ultimately, your body, being ripped apart. It's just as mentally/psychologically painful as it is physically...But I think that is explained in The Amber Spyglass, not in GC. *thinks*

QUOTE(davidenglish @ Mar 23 2008, 01:09 PM) *
Well, I think there's definitely a link with Jung's concept of Anima/Animus. The daemon is always of the opposite sex and reflects, just as a patronus does, the dominant characteristic of the person's soul.

Yeah, and it's also interesting--Pullman might've said this in an interview or something, or maybe it was in a future book, I don't remember--that, though very rare, there are people whose dæmons are the same gender. Quite interesting.

QUOTE(davidenglish @ Mar 23 2008, 01:09 PM) *
BTW, I don't recall there being slaves in GC/NL. The servants do have dog daemons, but there's nothing particularly demeaning about a dog --well, unless you're a cat person.

All the servants/Tartars had dog dæmons, yes. It's not demeaning, it's just that dogs are not exactly showing of a character; if you see someone that has a dog as a dæmon, you can't really tell much about their character or anything. Plus, they all have dogs as dæmons, so it makes it even more uniform and degrading, that they are not unique.

Anyway, yeah, I just wanted to say that. The similarities and differences have pretty much already been mentioned; dæmons = real, physical, tangible, conscious. Patronuses (Patroni?) = a spell, intangible, not alive, not as strongly bound to the creator as a dæmon is to their human.

This post has been edited by {{voldy}}: Mar 23 2008, 09:56 PM


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sherman
post Mar 23 2008, 10:31 PM
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QUOTE({{voldy}} @ Mar 23 2008, 09:56 PM) *
QUOTE(davidenglish @ Mar 23 2008, 01:09 PM) *
Well, I think there's definitely a link with Jung's concept of Anima/Animus. The daemon is always of the opposite sex and reflects, just as a patronus does, the dominant characteristic of the person's soul.

Yeah, and it's also interesting--Pullman might've said this in an interview or something, or maybe it was in a future book, I don't remember--that, though very rare, there are people whose dæmons are the same gender. Quite interesting.
In Northern Lights one of the workers in the kitchens at Jordan College has a daemon of the same gender as him. So, yes, daemons can be the same gender as the human. Do you think that a daemon sort of complete's a person's character...rounding them off and making them whole. Lyra is outgoing, rambunctions, and head strong, but Pantalaimon is very reserved, cautious. He seems to complete Lyra.

Does that make any sense at all...and has that been said before??


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