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The hand that signed the paper, Should Hermione have jinxed the DA list?
WaggaWaggaWerewo...
post Feb 15 2008, 08:22 AM
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HERMIONE AND MARIETTA EDGECOMBE


Hermione has quite a year in OotP. She starts out by finding that she and Ron have been appointed prefects and by continuing with her efforts to free House Elves.However law abiding Hermione is, she comes into conflict with Dolores Umbridge's idea of teaching. Hermione and Ron have the idea to form a study group so that they can learn DADA properly, and invited a few others along. But when more than two dozen people turn up at their first meeting in the Hogs Head, the whole idea becomes problematical.

WHY HERMIONE SHOULD HAVE JINXED THE PAPER. HERMIONE'S SIDE.

If it is possible for one out of four fast friends to betray the others, then how much more likely is it that one out of a group of twenty eight people who went to the Hogs Head would go to Umbridge? The day after their meeting there were messages up all over Hogwarts, forbidding the very clubs and associations Hermione and Ron were trying to form. We don't learn until the DA was eventually sprung that it was Willie Widdershins dressed like a mummy who was spying on the DA meeting. As the meeting closed, Hermione got everyone who attended that meeting to sign a piece of paper, which she jinxed so that if anyone in that group betrayed the others then everyone would know who did it. She did warn the group that signing the list would be tantamount to agreeing not to tell Umbridge anything that went on.

Under the circumstances, Hermione's precaution was a sensible one. Ron disliked Ginny's boyfriends, whom he considered untrustworthy, but that was his brotherly prejudice. Even the doubting Zachariah Smith didn't go to Umbridge, even though he was the last to sign. Each one of the people who went to the meeting had the choice not to go there in the first place. And each person in the Hogs Head could have openly refused to sign the paper or go along with the DA. Why did Marietta Edgecombe not back out then and there? And how could Hermione have known ahead of time who was going to betray the DA?

It was clear that Marietta was a bit dubious about the DA. She only went along because of her friend Cho Chang, who was attracted to Harry. Marietta's mother worked for the Ministry in the Floo Network and had warned her about getting involved in such activities. Why then did she not refuse to go along with Cho? Does Cho really need a friend along to accompany her when she investigates every club she is tempted to join?

When Marietta Edgecome finally did crack, she was putting DA members at risk, including herself. It wasn't doing Marietta, herself, any favours if she had to tell her mother about an illegal group she had joined. It was not being friendly to Cho either, since Cho's own mother worked for the Ministry. And Umbridge meant business. She not only found out who was in the DA, she also had the benefit of Pansy Parkinson going into the Room of Requirement to take the list as proof. It was only a bit of fancy work from Kingsley Shacklebolt which saved the day.

Of course Marietta was stuck with pimples from that day onwards, though they faded away in time. Couldn't Marietta have gone to Hermione, herself, and apologised for her behaviour? Or better still, discussed why she wanted out of the DA with one of the other members? Not all of them would have been unsympathetic. If Hermione let her off too easily then she might have gone back to Umbridge a second time and given up even more information. Whilst Marietta's treatment seems harsh, it was necessary to jinx the paper, and Marietta deserved everything she got. Why did she go to Umbridge and not some other teacher? Especially as Hermione specifically said not to let Umbridge, of all people, know what they were doing.

In the end, Dumbledore had to go to protect Harry and Marietta, herself. Umbridge seems quite dangerous in the Headmaster's office. Fudge, himself, was present, to wreak vengeance on disobedient school children. Percy was at his side to take notes. Jinxing the paper was the only sensible thing Hermione could do to protect everyone in the group, and she should not have been blamed for taking this sensible step. That Marietta was disfigured for more than two years afterwards was her own fault.

HERMIONE SHOULD NOT HAVE JINXED THE PAPER - MARIETTA EDGECOMBE

When Hermione jinxed the paper she was doing something clever that could backfire on everyone. No she didn't jinx the paper with Marietta in mind, but whoever did get jinxed would get a nasty shock. Is Hermione justified in jinxing the paper? No she isn't. Marietta could have been maimed for life, and until the pimples eventually faded, she suffered horrendous embarrassment, having to wear balaclavas or heavy make up to hide her face.

What Hermione did to Marietta wasn't nice. Why didn't Hermione tell the group that if they sneaked on the DA they would get pimples spelling S.N.E.A.K? Wouldn't it have been fair if she had respected their right not to want to join such an association? Or told them that signing the paper was a commitment they could not wriggle out of?

Perhaps Marietta was weak to let Cho drag her long to DA meetings, because of Cho's attraction to Harry. In loyalty to her friend, maybe Marietta thought they should have nothing further to do with Harry after the Valentine's day row Harry had with Cho. Perhaps Mrs Edgecombe had been getting to Marietta over the holidays, telling her to keep out of trouble. And perhaps Marietta, too, thought of Umbridge as 'a delightful woman'. Or maybe she thought the DA lessons weren't what she wanted. Are these good reasons to give the poor girl a disfigurement spelling out S.N.E.A.K?

Marietta was to remain disfigured for more than two years by those pimples. Yes Hermione did need to take precautions against weak people who wanted out of the DA. And yes, Hermione did not know that it would be Marietta, in particular, who would be the one to crack. But disfiguring someone else for so long is somewhat excessive. Hermione should have set a time limit on when the pimples would fade. Nobody should be forced to suffer for years over a misguided youthful attitude. If she could not put a time limit on how long the penalty would apply, Hermione should not have jinxed the paper at all.

Which side do you think was right? Hermione or Marietta? You are cordially invited to express your opinions here.





This post has been edited by WaggaWaggaWerewolf: Feb 15 2008, 04:48 PM


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ronni
post Feb 23 2008, 06:15 AM
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QUOTE(I_Brake_for_House_Elves @ Feb 20 2008, 02:11 PM) *
But my question is: what was the point of the list? If Hermione was using it to maintain the secrecy of the DA, then she had to tell the members that there would be consequences for telling in order for it to work. However, if the point was just to punish anyone who talked, then Hermione did an excellent job -- but her actions do not speak very highly of her, any more than in the House Elf instance I mentioned.


I think that is a very interesting question about the list but i think the list could've been used to check who had been turning up. Although, i don't think it would've been hard seeing as there were only around 20 or so members.

I also agree that the curse would've served better as a threat than a punishment. Isn't prevention the best cure?


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Miss Padfoot
post Feb 23 2008, 08:58 AM
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QUOTE(harrypottergeek2 @ Feb 21 2008, 07:42 AM) *
[...]
I think you've got a good point there. If you are going to bother to put a jinx on the paper, why not make it so that whoever signs it is unable to divulge the DA's secrets? It would be the next best thing to the Fidelius Charm. I guess one could argue that Hermione felt that it was not very likely for someone to betray them, as they were doing something to help everyone pass their practical DADA exams and go against Umbridge's ridiculous regime, so she just wanted to make sure that if someone does betray them, they will regret it right away. Still, it's not like Hermione to take security lightly.


I think the main point is that the curse was triggered only by the act of actually telling the secret. the mere fact that one would be tempted to tell the secret wouldn't be enough to trigger it. What I'm trying to say is that Hermione is too fair to punish someone for something they didn't yet do. The only choice she had was to make sure the would know with dead certainty who the spy was. Remember, this was only slightly over a year after they learned the truth about Sirius and Wormtail. With that memory fresh in mind she would want to make sure that the right person would be held responsible.
While it may seem a harsh punishment that Marietta had to live with her pimples for years, it is no less than what Umbridge had already done to Harry. The scars on his hand were still visible two years after the fact as well. And if Dumbledore hadn't intervened on Harry's AND Marietta's behalf who knows what might have happened. As it was, Marietta's decision to betray the DA, and her friend Cho, gave Umbridge free rein at Hogwarts and resulted in Dumbledore's suspension - a definite turn for the worse.
So I think the curse was the right thing to do at the time. It definitely stopped Marietta from disclosing any more of the DA's secrets and it served the second and in my opinion even more important purpose of letting the other members know who the spy was. If the whole affair in the office had ended differently it would have been possible for any remaining DA members to keep in touch without the constant fear of having the spy still among them. Hermione simply tried to be prepared foe every eventuality.


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eowyngirl
post Feb 24 2008, 01:24 AM
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I agree with Hermione's decision. There was no other way to be absolutely sure that everyone in the DA could be trusted. However, I think she should've told everyone that she jinxed the paper, because I (however much I identify with Hermione) found it extremely unfair that she signed all these people up to keeping a secret when they had no idea what would happen if they didn't keep it. I don't have any terribly strong opinions on it, though, because I think they would've found out that it was Marietta who told on them either way.


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invisibilityboos...
post Feb 24 2008, 09:36 PM
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i think it was a great idea. and i think if she warned them it wouldnt have made ot as funny as it was to see someone with sneak written on their face. i mean come on!


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Fawks7
post Feb 26 2008, 08:22 PM
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QUOTE(Miss Padfoot @ Feb 23 2008, 08:58 AM) *
QUOTE(harrypottergeek2 @ Feb 21 2008, 07:42 AM) *
[...]
I think you've got a good point there. If you are going to bother to put a jinx on the paper, why not make it so that whoever signs it is unable to divulge the DA's secrets? It would be the next best thing to the Fidelius Charm. I guess one could argue that Hermione felt that it was not very likely for someone to betray them, as they were doing something to help everyone pass their practical DADA exams and go against Umbridge's ridiculous regime, so she just wanted to make sure that if someone does betray them, they will regret it right away. Still, it's not like Hermione to take security lightly.


I think the main point is that the curse was triggered only by the act of actually telling the secret. the mere fact that one would be tempted to tell the secret wouldn't be enough to trigger it. What I'm trying to say is that Hermione is too fair to punish someone for something they didn't yet do. The only choice she had was to make sure the would know with dead certainty who the spy was. Remember, this was only slightly over a year after they learned the truth about Sirius and Wormtail. With that memory fresh in mind she would want to make sure that the right person would be held responsible.
While it may seem a harsh punishment that Marietta had to live with her pimples for years, it is no less than what Umbridge had already done to Harry. The scars on his hand were still visible two years after the fact as well. And if Dumbledore hadn't intervened on Harry's AND Marietta's behalf who knows what might have happened. As it was, Marietta's decision to betray the DA, and her friend Cho, gave Umbridge free rein at Hogwarts and resulted in Dumbledore's suspension - a definite turn for the worse.
So I think the curse was the right thing to do at the time. It definitely stopped Marietta from disclosing any more of the DA's secrets and it served the second and in my opinion even more important purpose of letting the other members know who the spy was. If the whole affair in the office had ended differently it would have been possible for any remaining DA members to keep in touch without the constant fear of having the spy still among them. Hermione simply tried to be prepared foe every eventuality.


I agree that hermionie needed to identify the sneak at that time, and that to make the person not say it, before they've actually done anything, would have been unfair.

what i don't agree with is leaving the scar for over a year. hermionie lost harry and ron when she turned harry's firebolt in. she was miserable- freindless, and went crying to hagrid. i think it really changed how she acted with them- she valued their freindship much more, and didn't turn them in again (for example, she didn't turn the marauder's map in). now she dooms someone else to silimar torment (who would stay friends with the sneak?) but not only for a week, but for years. this was punishment. how would hermionie had felt if her friends and others abandoned her for a long period of years, because no one would forget her betrayl because there it would be written on her forehead. now she's caused marrietta this same punishment. it's a huge excuse for everyone to bully her, and no one would move on and forget because it was still spelled out on her face to remind them.

not only is this terrible punishment, it's silimar to harry's scars. first of all, harry got those scars for his own backtalking- marrietta had nothing to do with that. the reason they are silimar is that this is bringing hermionie down to umbridges level- punishinig a student for disloyalty, and causing them much pain. harry's was physical, and went away (you could see the scars, but that didn't hurt him). however marrietta's cause her emotional pain- everyone hating her, never being able to move on from being the sneak, and probably no friends (maybe cho), also all the bullying it would instigate. both umbridge and hermionie (we think) are satisfied that they are doing the right thing. in a way, sneak is worse because it never left her, but harry's hand (though once immensley painful) served as a reminder for how evil umbridge is, not a reason for him to be bullyed or loose his friends. his is also only on his hand- easy enough to hide if necessary, but the first thing anyone will ever see of marrietta is SNEAK.

so i think this was a very cruel punishment to do to marrietta- to leave SNEAK than more than about a week. she was punishing her, like umbridge was punishing harry. this fact doesn't change for me whether or not hermionie warned people (she did say that they were agreeing not to tell...)


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Dana :]
post Feb 26 2008, 09:42 PM
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i think it was extremely nessicary.
otherwise they a). wouldn't know who did it and b). wouldn't have had a bad enough punishment for the person that did.


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rowena r
post Feb 27 2008, 09:50 AM
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QUOTE(Fawks7 @ Feb 26 2008, 08:22 PM) *
not only is this terrible punishment, it's silimar to harry's scars. first of all, harry got those scars for his own backtalking- marrietta had nothing to do with that. the reason they are silimar is that this is bringing hermionie down to umbridges level- punishinig a student for disloyalty, and causing them much pain.


I have to politely disagree with you Fawks7, when you say that the act brought Hermione to Umbridge's level. Marietta may have had nothing to do with Harry having to slice open his own hand time and again, but she did have everything to do with making Umbridge wise to the DA.

Hermione does tell the studenta assembles at the Hog Head that they were agreeing to keep the meetings secret if they signed, even if she didn't tell them exactly what would happen if they ratted. Whether telling them that would have been a better course is another question, but she did ask them to promise that they wouldn't tell. And that was entirely voluntary. Marietta could have refused to sign then and there. But she signed, thereby agreeing to the terms, grudgingly or not.

Everyone there knew what they were getting into, including Marietta. Everyone knew that Umbridge was baying for Harry's blood, inculding Marietta, or should I say, especially Marietta, since her mother worked at the ministry. Marietta knew what would happen if Umbridge got to know of the DA and its activities. She knew that was the reason Hermione asked all of them to keep quiet about it. She knew she would be getting a whole lot of people into big trouble including her close friend Cho.

But Marietta still squealed. And she did so voluntarily - not because someone crucioed the truth out of her or threatened to kill her parents or any such thing. Knowingly and willingly selling people who trusted you down the river is a horrible thing to do and deserves the strictest of punishments. 27 people trusted Marietta to keep her mouth shut, but she didn't. Cho might have forgiven her, but not everyone did.

Hermione did not have any personal enmity with Marietta, but she did have the desire to make sure that if and when anyone squealed to Umbridge, everyone would know who it was for sure, and she did make sure they did.

I simply can't equate Harry's scars on his hand with Marietta's pustules. Harry got his scars because he shot his mouth off in front of Umbridge unable to control his anger. Marietta got hers because she betrayed the trust of people who trusted her. Harry's umpteen detentions wouldn't have affected others, but Marietta's telling tales would have got many into hot water.

I personally feel Marietta got everthing she richly deserved. I'm whole-heartedly with Hermione on this one. smile.gif






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WaggaWaggaWerewo...
post Mar 11 2008, 05:17 PM
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QUOTE(Fawks7 @ Feb 27 2008, 12:22 PM) *
what i don't agree with is leaving the scar for over a year. hermionie lost harry and ron when she turned harry's firebolt in. she was miserable- freindless, and went crying to hagrid. i think it really changed how she acted with them- she valued their freindship much more, and didn't turn them in again (for example, she didn't turn the marauder's map in). now she dooms someone else to silimar torment (who would stay friends with the sneak?) but not only for a week, but for years. this was punishment. how would hermionie had felt if her friends and others abandoned her for a long period of years, because no one would forget her betrayl because there it would be written on her forehead. now she's caused marrietta this same punishment. it's a huge excuse for everyone to bully her, and no one would move on and forget because it was still spelled out on her face to remind them.


I wonder if it would have made a difference if Marietta, herself, had gone to Hermione to apologise for dobbing in the DA. Maybe the pimples might then have healed by themselves rather than being left to eventually fade away. But we don't see whether or not Marietta, herself, would want to do such a thing, and on the evidence we have the answer is no. Cho did plead Marietta's case to Harry, hoping that he liked her enough to sway his opinion, but Marietta's sending along a friend like Cho isn't the same as having the guts to apologise herself. If expressed contrition is all that was needed to remove the pimples then it is Marietta's own fault for having to endure them for longer than is necessary.

I don't agree that the scars were a huge excuse for everyone to bully Marietta. There were plenty who would have admired her for dobbing in the DA to Umbridge. Draco, and the Slytherins for example. I doubt that even the likes of Zachariah Smith would even ostracize Marietta, since he might have been aware that those pimples were intended for him if he decided to rat on the DA. And whilst Hermione could dish out a jinx to be activated on sneaks, she wasn't like Umbridge, who would go on punishing people because she enjoyed doing it.


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lirene
post Mar 11 2008, 08:06 PM
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QUOTE(WaggaWaggaWerewolf @ Mar 11 2008, 05:17 PM) *
I wonder if it would have made a difference if Marietta, herself, had gone to Hermione to apologise for dobbing in the DA. Maybe the pimples might then have healed by themselves rather than being left to eventually fade away.

That's a good question. Maybe part of Hermione's charm had the stipulation that if in fact there was a snitch, that a simple apology would make the "pimples" go away. It doesn't seem that Marietta did since she still has the scars. Hopefully she will come around one day.

Someone pointed out an analogy between Harry's scars and Marietta's. Harry's scars were from Umbridge: he did nothing to deserve them save for standing up for himself. If that is a crime, then I will hex myself biggrin.gif . No teacher anywhere, whether in the Muggle world, or wizarding world has even a remote right to do such a thing. And I am sure Umbridge used Dark Magic; which means that Harry will have those scars for life. To me, it's a simple criminal matter. I am glad Umbridge is in jail. Maybe she will become a dementor someday since she is so good at sucking all of the happiness out of people.


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harrypottergeek2
post Mar 11 2008, 08:22 PM
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QUOTE(lirene @ Mar 11 2008, 09:06 PM) *
QUOTE(WaggaWaggaWerewolf @ Mar 11 2008, 05:17 PM) *
I wonder if it would have made a difference if Marietta, herself, had gone to Hermione to apologise for dobbing in the DA. Maybe the pimples might then have healed by themselves rather than being left to eventually fade away.

That's a good question. Maybe part of Hermione's charm had the stipulation that if in fact there was a snitch, that a simple apology would make the "pimples" go away. It doesn't seem that Marietta did since she still has the scars.


Even if it's not in the nature of the curse to fade away naturally on their own (i.e. without someone performing the counter-charm) after the sneak feels remorse for their actions, I'm sure that Hermione could have removed the pimples herself if she had enough reason to. Mind you, Marietta would have to come up with one heck of an apology to pursuade Hermione to remove them, but theoretically, Hermione should be able to considering she's the one who put them in place.


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