The official webforum of the The-Leaky-Cauldron.org LeakyNews.com: Leaky Info | Potter News | Features | Interactive | Galleries | The Books | The Films | For Fun

Leaky Lounge

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

The Rules : FAQ : Search : Member List : Sitemap

Forum News: All you ever wanted to know about Jo's Book Nook
Hot Thread: PoA Animal Poll in the HP Book Club.
Mod Thread: David Tennant - Actor of the Month Discussion

3 Pages

1 2 3 >

Reply to this topic

Start new topic

What is the largest flaw in Harry Potter?

drodrey View Member Profile	Jun 22 2009, 06:21 PM Post #1
Just Through the Brick Wall Posts: 2 Joined: 10:39pm April 28, 2009	I'm competing in a 'tribook tournament' where a Harry Potter fan, Twilight Fan and Percy Jackson fan all attempt to win for their book. I'm representing Harry Potter and the first task is an essay on what I think is the biggest flaw in Harry Potter. I'm finding it extremely difficult. I've spent the last ten years making up excuses as to why Harry Potter flaws aren't actually flaws. Basically all I've got is deus ex machina, Harry Potter as a character and unoriginality. But I can't actually elaborate on them. Any ideas?

3 Pages

1 2 3 >

Start new topic

Replies (1 - 9)

Zoom Oomfirstclass View Member Profile	Jun 22 2009, 06:31 PM Post #2
Buying a Half-Kneazle Posts: 525 Joined: 10:49am October 21, 2006	Eh, I don't really agree with deus ex machina...every single book (and a lot of the character's actions/motives) lead up to the ending. Just because there's a suprising/confusing ending doesn't mean its deus ex machina. I also find it pretty difficult, but the first thing that came to my mind was the portrayal of teh Slytherin house as a whole... They're viewed as waaay too much of a bunch of thugs, while the rest of the school is seen as perfect. -------------------- Harry Potter commemorative poster: http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/8418/harr...osteredited.jpg

SeveraSphyrna View Member Profile	Jun 22 2009, 07:35 PM Post #3
Flesh-Eating-Slug Catcher Posts: 195 Joined: 11:46pm June 12, 2009	QUOTE(drodrey @ Jun 22 2009, 06:21 PM) I've spent the last ten years making up excuses as to why Harry Potter flaws aren't actually flaws. Basically all I've got is deus ex machina, Harry Potter as a character and unoriginality. But I can't actually elaborate on them. Any ideas? Hmmm...some ideas... Deus ex machina Book 1: Harry's mother's sacrifice saves Harry from Voldemort!Quirrell Book 2: Fawkes saves Harry from the Baselisk and its venom Book 4: Priori incantatem saves Harry from Voldemort These were all foreshadowed in the books, though, so I'm not sure they came out of nowhere. Book 7 is the worst for this though...off the top of my head... The sword of Gryffindor in the pond (yeah, Snape put it there, but it happened to come at the right time)---and then again when Neville got it out of the sorting hat. The Deluminator having powers that no one knew about before (transport, finding people, etc.) The snitch having skin memory People being able to use patronuses like cell phones Wand magic---you could right an entire essay about this. Ron remembering the parseltongue phrase to open the Chamber of Secrets after five years, even though he only heard it once and was basically imitating the noises. Dumbledore coming back to explain the plot to Harry at King's Cross You may want to check out this forum---there was a pretty good discussion of DeM (what was, what wasn't, etc.): http://www.leakylounge.com/Deus-Machina-HP...ies-t64139.html Unoriginality Well, DH turns into a quest story, so it has all of the trappings of previous quest novels, the most obvious one is LotR, off the top of my head. the Deathly Hallows (there's even a ring!) Characters: Aragog as Shelbob Dumbledore as Gandalf Kreature as Gollum/Smeagol Wormtail as Wormtongue (some people think Snape is Wormtongue) Dementors as ringwraiths I'm sure there's a website out there with all of the comparisons, since this is the one that has been most-referenced (in my searching, at least). Not sure what you're looking for in terms of Harry's character though... Do you mean character flaws (i.e. at times, insolent, not that bright, etc.) or contradictions (i.e. spell use, behavior, etc.)? If you're looking for the latter, the use of unforgivable curses comes to mind---he can't use crucio against Bellatrix in OotP after she kills Sirius, but can use it when Amycus Carrows spits on MacGonagall (?). Not sure I buy that he was able to "mean it" when someone spit on his teacher, but didn't mean it when someone killed his godfather... Have you ever read the Deathly Hallows Spork? It goes chapter by chapter through Deathly Hallows and it's a pretty good record of various problems, including Deus ex Machina, plot holes, etc. (and it's fun to read, even if you enjoyed the books). http://community.livejournal.com/deadlyhollow/2663.html --------------------

Zoom Oomfirstclass View Member Profile	Jun 22 2009, 09:16 PM Post #4
Buying a Half-Kneazle Posts: 525 Joined: 10:49am October 21, 2006	QUOTE Book 1: Harry's mother's sacrifice saves Harry from Voldemort!Quirrell Book 2: Fawkes saves Harry from the Baselisk and its venom Book 4: Priori incantatem saves Harry from Voldemort These were all foreshadowed in the books, though, so I'm not sure they came out of nowhere. Book 7 is the worst for this though...off the top of my head... The sword of Gryffindor in the pond (yeah, Snape put it there, but it happened to come at the right time)---and then again when Neville got it out of the sorting hat. The Deluminator having powers that no one knew about before (transport, finding people, etc.) The snitch having skin memory People being able to use patronuses like cell phones Wand magic---you could right an entire essay about this. Also, there's a difference between a coincidence and DeM. DeM: when wrongs are corrected by a force that does not fit along with the story (i.e. a Greek god(dess) comnig down to solve everything, or some random king fixing the problems (r.e. Tartuffe)) There's no problem with some of these. QUOTE The Deluminator having powers that no one knew about before (transport, finding people, etc.) That was Dumbledore. Scrimegeour even said that it was of DD's own design. QUOTE People being able to use patronuses like cell phones What's the problem with that? Dumbledore invented this safe method of communication for the Order, and it's been talked about many times before. QUOTE The sword of Gryffindor in the pond It was said in the Prince's Tale that Hermione disclosed the information, and phineas heard it and relayed it to Snape. QUOTE Book 1: Harry's mother's sacrifice saves Harry from Voldemort! That's explicitly outlined in the books. It's not an unexpected force...it's magic (isn't magic what they've been doing the last 7 books?) QUOTE Wand magic---you could right an entire essay about this. That's not an unknown force coming to fix all the problems. Those were deep, subtle laws of Wand lore that were explicitly explained to the reader via Ollivander. That talk with Olivander explained the inheritance of wands, so therefore it is fair game for the end of the book. **also, I found that 'commentary' you cited to be a bunch or sarcasm from a serious pessimist. who ever wrote that has some issues. -------------------- Harry Potter commemorative poster: http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/8418/harr...osteredited.jpg

ABrannock View Member Profile	Jun 22 2009, 09:45 PM Post #5
Just Through the Brick Wall Posts: 13 Joined: 2:28am May 10, 2009 Location: Atlanta, Ga.	His biggest flaw is he's foolish, not dumb, just foolish. Why didn't he ever go to people in authority before setting out to fight some evil? For instance, when he took it upon himself to go save Sirius. Why didn't he enlist the help of the only one who Voldemort was afraid of, not to mention other wizards more powerful than he? I know he felt pressed for time but couldn't he send off an owl or patronus? If not, then muggle technology is better than magic. Cell phones are great.

lupinwandcaster View Member Profile	Jun 22 2009, 09:50 PM Post #6
Knight Bus Driver in Training Posts: 594 Joined: 10:05pm August 1, 2007 Location: Having a Butterbeer at the Three Broomsticks	Stop! This is ruining the book! -------------------- LUPIN FAN FOR LIFE Harry- "Death's got an invisibility cloak?" Ron - "So he can sneak up on people. He gets bored of running at them, flapping his arms and shrieking."

SeveraSphyrna View Member Profile	Jun 22 2009, 11:34 PM Post #7
Flesh-Eating-Slug Catcher Posts: 195 Joined: 11:46pm June 12, 2009	QUOTE(Zoom @ Jun 22 2009, 09:16 PM) Also, there's a difference between a coincidence and DeM. DeM: when wrongs are corrected by a force that does not fit along with the story (i.e. a Greek god(dess) comnig down to solve everything, or some random king fixing the problems (r.e. Tartuffe)) There's no problem with some of these. I agree, but they are ones that are frequently mentioned and why I posted the link for the discussion, since people disagree. As for DeM, it doesn't just have to come from a random person, god, etc. though. It can be from the sudden appearance of something that fixes a problem, something that could have been introduced earlier in the plot (if you've read Crichton's Andromeda Strain, that is a classic example). The coincidence was ramped up to the nth degree in the last book because she had a lot of ground to cover. I should also say that I don't mind deus ex machina or coincidences or surprises when they are interspersed and don't come at you all at once. I just found myself thinking "um...really?" a lot while reading the last book....it was just too much all at once and at least some of it could have been brought up sooner. QUOTE(Zoom @ Jun 22 2009, 09:16 PM) That's not an unknown force coming to fix all the problems. Those were deep, subtle laws of Wand lore that were explicitly explained to the reader via Ollivander. That talk with Olivander explained the inheritance of wands, so therefore it is fair game for the end of the book. The point being that it came at the end of a series of seven books about witchcraft and wizardry. You'd think that since they were teaching children how to use wands, that the teachers would have taught them about wand magic as well (a perfect time would have been in CoS with the dueling club, for example). I'm sure Ollivander wasn't the only authority on the subject (there were other wandmakers too) and it seems to me that at least some of this would have been in one of their textbooks (I don't recall that it was). Yes, wand magic is complicated, but understanding what happens due to disarming, etc. should be common knowledge among the adults who are using wands (especially since there was a previous war). QUOTE(Zoom @ Jun 22 2009, 09:16 PM) also, I found that 'commentary' you cited to be a bunch or sarcasm from a serious pessimist. who ever wrote that has some issues. Actually, it was written by several people---all of whom were/are big HP fans. Yes, it is a bit snarky at times, but some of the chapters are quite funny (especially the one where the author tracks Harry's and Voldemort's movements before the Battle at Hogwarts). Even with the gripes, I still love the series and liked the 7th book (though not as much as the others). QUOTE(lupinwandcaster @ Jun 22 2009, 09:50 PM) Stop! This is ruining the book! Sorry. I don't want to ruin the book by any means. There's a lot to love, but there's also a lot to discuss. This post has been edited by SeveraSphyrna**: Jun 22 2009, 11:52 PM --------------------

Kalin View Member Profile	Jun 23 2009, 01:33 AM Post #8
Cauldron Bottom Measurer Posts: 134 Joined: 12:32am February 26, 2009	I think the major flaw is that the plot and a lot of the plot devices are complicated, and while information is plentiful, it's hard to sort out the merely fascinating from the crucial facts when reading the whole story for the first time. Deus ex Machina might apply to a few things (fiendfyre, the Weasleys' car in the Forbidden Forest) but I disagree with the wandlore criticism. There are no complete surprises in DH as far as I'm concerned, it has all been foreshadowed or implied (the statement that the wand chooses the wizard in book one never excludes the possibility that wands can be inherited or pass from owner to owner via different means; Ron and Neville being excellent examples). While wandlore might be mysterious and subtle, the case of the Elder wand is fairly straight forward. Harry has won the wand that disarmed last master of the Elder wand, thus he is the wizard with the closest affinity to that wand (or its 'master'). The only new information we get in DH is that wands cannot only be inherited but their allegiance can also be won (hardly an overload of new or surprising information). Snape was obviously ready to pass the sword on from when the trio left for the Horcrux hunt, he just didn't know where they were until Hermione mentioned it and Phinneas Nigellus overheard her. I know that this has already been pointed out but it is actually a good example of something that Jo does quite often which is that something appears to be Deus ex Machina, mainly because we are on Harry's journey and at the time he doesn't have all the information, and just like when Fawkes arrives to help him in CoS, he finds out how it all transpired afterwards. QUOTE Ron remembering the parseltongue phrase to open the Chamber of Secrets after five years, even though he only heard it once and was basically imitating the noises. Ron has heard Harry using the parseltongue word for 'open' a lot more recently than in CoS: Harry uses it to open the Horcrux locket in DH, 'The Silver Doe' before Ron stabs it As for Dumbledore coming back to explain the plot: Is it really so, or is Harry hallucinating on the brink of death? It's happening in his head, but is it real, or is Harry drawing his own conclusions using Dumbledore as his voice of reason?

drodrey View Member Profile	Jun 23 2009, 03:18 AM Post #9
Just Through the Brick Wall Posts: 2 Joined: 10:39pm April 28, 2009	Thank you so so so much. Honestly that is amazing, just what I need. I'm going to do deus ex machina because, although I don't particularly agree with the majority of it, it has a legitimate point and is very hard to debate against. Really, thank you so much for the help, everyone. I'm not happy writing about it either but I want Harry Potter to win so I'm going to do the best job that I can

ChristianWizardW... ChristianWizardWorld View Member Profile	Jun 25 2009, 10:07 AM Post #10
Getting Fitted for New Dress Robes Posts: 43 Joined: 8:36am June 4, 2009 Location: I don't know. I think there's a Crumple-Horned Snorkack here, though.	QUOTE Basically all I've got is deus ex machina, Harry Potter as a character and unoriginality. @Bold: No.....just, no. In fact, these books' originality is the one thing that made them so great for me! It takes a vague concept - wizardry - and makes a whole new world out of it. For me, the big flaw is the unfulfilled potential. You can do pretty much anything with a series that focuses around magic, yet these books don't do much to explain what everyday life is like at Hogwarts, or for that matter, for a wizard or witch who is younger than eleven years old. That said, Harry doesn't really seem that impressed with a school of magic. Instead, he just worries about if he isn't cut out to be a wizard. If the first book showed some sort of struggle where Harry is unable to do magic because of a lack of confidence, then maybe he'd have a reason for saying "Hey, look, a magic school......meh, I wouldn't fit in. Find some other protagonist." At which point Dumbledore sticks his head in the scene. But now I'm just getting off topic. So, yeah, less "boo-hoo!", more "ooh, aah!". Still, if Rowling wanted to explain everything about the magic world, she'd write a Potterpedia, which she seems to be doing at the moment. No other story with magic in it explains it in a scientific way, but that could've been a way to set it apart from the other stories. -------------------- Ravenclaw Power! (WBM - If you don't know it, you're not a true Ravenclaw!) I'm Albus Dumbledore and I approve this message.

« Next Oldest · Academic Analysis: Obscurus Books · Next Newest »

3 Pages

1 2 3 >

Reply to this topic

Start new topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)

0 Members:

Display Mode: Switch to: Standard · Linear+ · Switch to: Outline

Track this topic · Email this topic · Print this topic · Subscribe to this forum

Powered By IP.Board 2.3.6 © 2010 IPS, Inc.
CommunitySEO 1.1.4 P1 © 2010 IPB SEO Module

Sorting is open now for Deathly Hallows! Follow this link.

Coming Up:
The Corner Booth is on Hiatus Join us in the New Year!

Come right in to the Shrieking Shack Arcade!

Shopping at the Cauldron Shop supports this forum!

IPS Driver Error

IPS Driver Error
There appears to be an error with the database.
You can try to refresh the page by clicking here