Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: "To Seize And Receive Power"
Harry Potter discussion forum for movies, books, and more! - The Leaky Lounge > HP-Related Discussion: Diagon Alley > Leaky Sites: Cauldron's Corner > Scribbulus - Leaky Cauldron's Premiere Essay Project
memyslfnI
Author Bio

I live in Sweden but have a great love for England; its language, history and literature. My interest in the Arthurian legends arose from travelling in Britain in my teens, and from reading Mary Stewart's books about Merlin (The Crystal Cave, The Hollow Hills, The Last Enchantment, The Wicked Day). Long before I was introduced to Harry Potter, I had also been enchanted by the magical worlds created by J.R.R. Tolkien and C.S. Lewis. In my Master of Arts in Languages Education back in the 80's I wrote an English essay on the Narnia books, and a German one on Medeival Heroic Literature. I have also studied a bit of History and Theology.

I read the first Harry Potter book in 2001, and got really hooked by The Order of the Phonenix. However, before The Half-Blood Prince I had never visited a fan-site on the internet. Had someone predicted as late as last June, that within a few months I would be specifically asked by a Harry Potter website I had yet not heard of, to write an essay on certain mysterious objects in the sixth book, I would have thought it a great joke… Now here I am. You really never know what is going to happen next!
memyslfnI
Abstract

In Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince we learn that Lord Voldemort has tried to make himself immortal by enclosing parts of his soul in six so-called Horcruxes, all of which must be destroyed before he can die. Two have been destroyed already, four still remain. All six objects may be said to represent royal insignia, and can also be connected to the Arthurian legends. But while Voldemort has acquired his regalia by theft and murder, Harry has received another set of insignia as gifts or loans, and kept his soul intact.

You can read this essay here.
Arianhrod
I loved it, Spectrespecs. Very well researched and very thorough.

I would just like to make one teeny comment about the Hallows--they don't necessarily have to come from Arthurian legend, although your evidence is persuasive. The Four Hallows originally came from Irish legend in the form of the Tuatha de Danaan, or "people of Dan." Anyway, their objects were: The Spear of Lugh (from Gorias, said to provide victory in any fight), the Cauldron of the Dagda (AKA the Cauldron of Cure or Bran's Cauldron, from Murias), the Lia Fail (Stone of Fal, from Falias; later the Stone of Destiny in Scottish tradition) and the Sword of Light (from Findias), also known as the Sword of Nuada, who was also called Nuada of the Silver Hand. It was impossible to avoid being struck and wounded by it.

Four people were responsible for guarding the contents of the Crane Bag, where the Hallows were kept: Manannan, Irish/Manx god of the sea and the equivalent of the Welsh Mannawyddan; Lugh, who was one of the best warriors ever and who represented the triumph of good over evil; Cumhall; and Fionn. Fionn is so much like Arthur that you have to wonder if he was the inspiration for the Arthurian legends. He supposedly travelled to the Otherworld, but who instead of dying was said to be asleep and would return when needed.

These later developed into the Pole of Combat, the Sword of Light, the Cauldron of Cure and the Stone of Destiny. Later still, they became the Cup, the Sword, the Spear and the Pentacle.





Spectrespecs
QUOTE(Arianhrod @ Apr 3 2006, 05:20 AM) [snapback]767434[/snapback]

I loved it, Spectrespecs. Very well researched and very thorough.

I would just like to make one teeny comment about the Hallows--they don't necessarily have to come from Arthurian legend, although your evidence is persuasive. The Four Hallows originally came from Irish legend in the form of the Tuatha de Danaan ---


Thanks for your response. I am aware that the Arthurian legends exist in many versions and are intertwined with other traditions and tales. In many ways the Arthurian tales merge the Christian ideals with Celtic, Roman and Germanic traditions. I do not mean to claim that the Hallows originate from the Arthurian legend, just that they are found among those stories and have become part of that legend. If JKR has had the Hallows in mind in writing her story, it does not seem unlikely that there might also be a kind of "Grail Question" involved before the end of Book 7. (The Sphinx's riddle -!- in the Maze in Book 4 could be another hint to expect something like that.)
Arianhrod
I wasn't criticizing--it was just a comment! I really enjoyed your essay--it was well-researched and very well constructed, as usual. I'm still very impressed by the amount of thought you put into your comments, and this is no different!
Prongs Patronus
Perhpas it is Snape who will have to ask---and answer--the question, "Whom do you serve?"



PP Stag.gif

Arianhrod
That's a good one, PP. The Grail Question...
Spectrespecs
Arianhrod, I appreciate your comments and found them interesting smile.gif ; I just wanted to clarify my point. One of the problems I encountered in writing this essay was that there are so many facts and ideas that "connect" to this topic but still don't quite belong there. It proved more difficult than I anticipated to sort out what to include and what to leave aside.

Prongs, good point. Perhaps more than just one "Grail Question" has to be asked and answered. The "Whom do you serve?" certainly seems to belong to Snape. The question I'd like to ask Voldemort/Tom Riddle has more to do with "why". I think his name (Riddle) indicates that there is still something about him that we have to understand. And my guess is that it will probably be Harry's job to get to the bottom of it. It is Harry who has been diving into the Pensieve together with Dumbledore, it was Harry who had to get the memory out of Slughorn in book 6, and it is Harry's blood running through Voldemort's veins...



Prongs Patronus
Spectrespecs, did you find anything about the whole "how the ruler goes, so goes the land" theme that runs through the Arthurian sub-text? Would the regalia that you mention bolster or protect the "leader" (in this case, Harry) and the "land" (as in the Wizarding World)? What would be the deleterious effects of the "anti-Regalia" on the land (we know they have had a terrible effect upon Voldemort, as the "anti"-leader)?



PP Stag.gif

Spectrespecs
QUOTE(Prongs Patronus @ Apr 4 2006, 02:48 AM) [snapback]768699[/snapback]

Spectrespecs, did you find anything about the whole "how the ruler goes, so goes the land" theme that runs through the Arthurian sub-text? Would the regalia that you mention bolster or protect the "leader" (in this case, Harry) and the "land" (as in the Wizarding World)? What would be the deleterious effects of the "anti-Regalia" on the land (we know they have had a terrible effect upon Voldemort, as the "anti"-leader)?

PP Stag.gif


Prongs, I have perhaps not been looking at it quite in those terms. What I have been thinking about, and also point out in the essay, is that the "regalia" that come to Harry's help are in one way or another connected with Dumbledore/the Phoenix. I think it is more a question of whose "spirit" and what kind of magic is behind the objects, than the objects as such. The book is basically dealing with values like truth against lies, free choice against force, love against hatred, generosity against greed etc. I think it is implied that if Harry/Dumbledore/the Order of the Phoenix manage to defeat Voldemort and his Death Eaters without resorting to the use of Dark Magic, that will bring healing to the land, and order to the chaos.

Arianhrod
That's an interesting point. The Fisher King, or Wounded King (in this case, DD) cannot heal his land--he has to die first if I remember correctly. So until DD's death, the possibility of victory and healing for the Wizarding World was pretty much zero.
Spectrespecs
QUOTE(Arianhrod @ Apr 4 2006, 09:23 PM) [snapback]769776[/snapback]

That's an interesting point. The Fisher King, or Wounded King (in this case, DD) cannot heal his land--he has to die first if I remember correctly. So until DD's death, the possibility of victory and healing for the Wizarding World was pretty much zero.


That might be one aspect to consider... On the other hand, no "Hallows" have really been lost by and brought back to Dumbledore, have they? I have had the thought, along the way, that some objects might have to be brought to Dd to revive him; in that case assuming that he's only wounded and not "really" dead. (Since JKR has stated in some interview that Dd "is obviously not Jesus".) In which case, Snape's wand (probably with Snape himself attached!) might be relevant, as "the spear" that wounded the King... One thing to indicate such an ending is Harry's first thought after what happenend on the tower: "he had to get to Dumbledore and he had to catch Snape... somehow the two things were linked... he could reverse what had happened if he had them both together... Dumbledore could not have died..."

I chose, however, not to involve the question about whether Dd is really dead, in this essay, since it is such a big a topic in itself.

In any case (whether Dd is dead or still alive), we still have Voldemort as "self-made King", and his Horcruxes could be regarded as a kind of (anti-)hallows, in the sense that they have to be "brought back" to him (empty of soul), for him to be able to really die. And his death would also bring healing to the land.

Looking at it from another - thwarted - point of view, it might be argued that the "spear" that wounded Voldemort has been brought back to him, and has brought him back to life in the body; since it was his own wand that backfired the AK curse on him and made him lose his first body, and that wand was reunited with him in book 4...

Seeing how JKR handles other themes throughout the books, I wouldn't be surprised if she has had more than just one aspect of "the hallows" in mind.
Arianhrod
QUOTE
That might be one aspect to consider... On the other hand, no "Hallows" have really been lost by and brought back to Dumbledore, have they? I have had the thought, along the way, that some objects might have to be brought to Dd to revive him; in that case assuming that he's only wounded and not "really" dead. (Since JKR has stated in some interview that Dd "is obviously not Jesus".) In which case, Snape's wand (probably with Snape himself attached!) might be relevant, as "the spear" that wounded the King...

Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of his injured hand, which we never found out about. What caused it? How did it happen? Was he already dying anyway? In the legends, the Fisher King's wounds never healed, no matter what. DD's never got any better, either.

QUOTE
One thing to indicate such an ending is Harry's first thought after what happenend on the tower: "he had to get to Dumbledore and he had to catch Snape... somehow the two things were linked... he could reverse what had happened if he had them both together... Dumbledore could not have died..."

I took this to mean that Harry was in shock and didn't immediately realize just what had happened.

QUOTE
In any case (whether Dd is dead or still alive), we still have Voldemort as "self-made King", and his Horcruxes could be regarded as a kind of (anti-)hallows, in the sense that they have to be "brought back" to him (empty of soul), for him to be able to really die. And his death would also bring healing to the land.

That's an excellent point and works well for your thesis. His death would certainly benefit everyone, wizard and Muggle alike. Until he is well and truly dead, there will only be lulls in the war--not a real ending to it. The DE's bided their time for 13 years, just waiting for him to reappear. They took that time to establish themselves in the community so that, like Malfoy, they were almost beyond reproach when the time came to rise again.

QUOTE
Seeing how JKR handles other themes throughout the books, I wouldn't be surprised if she has had more than just one aspect of "the hallows" in mind.

I agree. Can you be more specific, though?
Spectrespecs
QUOTE(Arianhrod @ Apr 5 2006, 11:10 PM) [snapback]771267[/snapback]

QUOTE
That might be one aspect to consider... On the other hand, no "Hallows" have really been lost by and brought back to Dumbledore, have they? I have had the thought, along the way, that some objects might have to be brought to Dd to revive him; in that case assuming that he's only wounded and not "really" dead. (Since JKR has stated in some interview that Dd "is obviously not Jesus".) In which case, Snape's wand (probably with Snape himself attached!) might be relevant, as "the spear" that wounded the King...

Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of his injured hand, which we never found out about. What caused it? How did it happen? Was he already dying anyway? In the legends, the Fisher King's wounds never healed, no matter what. DD's never got any better, either.


Oh, I see. I wasn't really thinking of that. As I said in the essay I interpret the blackened hand to indicate that (some kind of) fire was involved in the destroying of the Ring Horcrux. But since Dd never told the story in book 6, I guess our only chance to hear it will be through either a revived Dd or through Snape (Dd mentions Snape's "timely action" when he returned from that adventure). Personally I don't think Dd was dying or even growing weak in his reactions; my guess is that was just the rumour he wanted spread to the Dark side, and that he might even have been planning to "stage" his death. Either Snape was in on the deception (he told Bella and Narcissa about Dd's weakened reactions in HBP2) or he managed to fool even Snape; which to me seems less likely, considering that it was Snape who helped him stop the hand injury, and that it was Snape he wanted Harry to fetch when they returned from the cave. - Anyway, Dd was using his injured hand to detect magic in the cave, which indicates (I think) that he can't really have suffered a very serious loss of function: he "apporached the wall of the cave and caressed it with his blackened fingertips, murmuring..."

QUOTE
QUOTE
Seeing how JKR handles other themes throughout the books, I wouldn't be surprised if she has had more than just one aspect of "the hallows" in mind.

I agree. Can you be more specific, though?


Not really, besides what I've already said. I just mean that there might be more than one "wounded king" to consider (for example Dumbledore), and JKR seems to like working with parallells, opposites and mirror images. I try to keep an open mind to different (or multiple) interpretations until we have the full story.

PS Edited to get the quotes sorted out...
Witherwings
Oooh, intriguing essay, Spectrespecs! You have pulled all of the hidden clues from the books together so clearly and explained them on so many levels. Well done! clap.gif

Your associations for the horcrux symbols seem particularly accurate:
QUOTE
A locket is made to keep secrets of the heart, so it is likely to affect one's feelings, perhaps make one feel things one wouldn't normally feel.
This makes perfect sense, especially when you mention that Slytherin represents water (emotion).
The tiara/head/intellect/air/Ravenclaw connection also fits perfectly. I got goose bumbs as I was reading these associations; they seem so on-target! I felt as though I were actually reading authentic hints of things to come in Book 7.

More goosebumps at the end when you mentioned Nagini, Harry's Parceltongue ability, and Dumbledore's warning about the uncertainty of using animals as horcruxes (horcri?). It all fits together perfectly!

How do you see Harry being able to charm Nagini away from Voldemort? (...if I'm correct in assuming that this is your speculation.)

This essay draws upon the best ideas from the countless horcux speculation threads going on since July, your own original ideas, and research on Arthurian legends and royal lore. The end result is very informative and readable. I feel much wiser and less confused after reading it, Spectrespecs!

PS. The line about Voldemort's "scattered soul" remaining "vulnerable" once he was flesh and blood again is exactly what I was trying to say at the end of my Tom Riddle essay (in Scribbulus Part 1), but didn't do so with nearly as much clarity or brevity. lol.gif












Spectrespecs
QUOTE(Witherwings @ Apr 13 2006, 01:26 AM) [snapback]781528[/snapback]


More goosebumps at the end when you mentioned Nagini, Harry's Parceltongue ability, and Dumbledore's warning about the uncertainty of using animals as horcruxes (horcri?). It all fits together perfectly!

How do you see Harry being able to charm Nagini away from Voldemort? (...if I'm correct in assuming that this is your speculation.)



Thanks for all your praise, Witherwings! blush.gif I will be very curious myself when I finally get book 7 in my hand, to find out how close or far off I've been in some of my guesses...

About Nagini, I'm really not at all sure; I'm just thinking that there must be more to this Parseltongue gift than what we've already seen. Dumbledore has stressed the point that the ability was transferred to Harry when the AK curse bounced off him, and that it is Voldemort himself who (by his choices) has "fulfilled the prophecy" of marking Harry as his "equal". Parseltounge seems to be one thing that links them together. (Since book 4 there's also Harry's blood running through LV's veins to consider.)

Some of my questions are:
*If Harry is confronted with Nagini and tries to control her with Parseltongue, would he then get in touch with Voldemort's soul within the snake, or with Nagini "herself" (Dd's remark seems to indicate that she still might have an independent "self"), or both?
*Could Nagini somehow be persuaded to attack the "human" LV? And if she did, what would the outcome of such an attempt be? It seems likely that by drinking her venom or milk LV has made himself immune to that kind of poison(?); but maybe there's some other twist to it? If she turns against him, perhaps he will kill her? (If he didn't know that all the rest of the Hx had been destroyed, he might not even hesitate much to do so.)
*Perhaps Harry could also get some valuable information out of Nagini before she dies (however she dies), either by Legilimency (which he might be better at than Occlumency!) or by direct questions? (Or by using Veritaserum? I doubt anyone has tried that on a snake yet!)

I'm afraid JK Rowling is still the only one who would know the answers!
wink.gif








Arianhrod
QUOTE
About Nagini, I'm really not at all sure; I'm just thinking that there must be more to this Parseltongue gift than what we've already seen. Dumbledore has stressed the point that the ability was transferred to Harry when the AK curse bounced off him, and that it is Voldemort himself who (by his choices) has "fulfilled the prophecy" of marking Harry as his "equal". Parseltounge seems to be one thing that links them together. (Since book 4 there's also Harry's blood running through LV's veins to consider.)

I'm wondering if Parseltongue won't make it easier for Harry to destroy the Horcruxes. If I were LV, I'd make sure they were secured in a way that no one besides myself would be able to break. Well, until a few years ago, LV thought he was the only Parseltongue. I would have used Parseltongue as the "password" to be able to "enter" the Horcruxes, although he wouldn't destroy them. Now Harry is a Parseltongue as well. The locket in 12 GP would be a great test, IMO, if it's still there. I've got a feeling Mundungus made away with it and gave it to Aberforth.

HBP p 245:

QUOTE
The exceptions were two men a little ahead of them, standing just outside The Three Broomsticks. One was very tall and thin; spquinting through his rain-washed glasses Harry recognized the barman who worked in the other Hogsmeade pub, the Hog's Head. As Harry, Ron and Hermione drew closer, the barman threw his cloak more tightly around his neck and walked away, leaving the shorter man to fumble with something in his arms. They were barely feet from him when Harry realized who the man was.

"Mundungus!"


QUOTE
If Harry is confronted with Nagini and tries to control her with Parseltongue, would he then get in touch with Voldemort's soul within the snake, or with Nagini "herself" (Dd's remark seems to indicate that she still might have an independent "self"), or both?

This is a tough one. I wonder if Harry wouldn't have to possess her like LV does. I don't doubt he, too, has that ability, but would he even think of it? I don't know if Parseltongue alone would let him do that. Legilimency, maybe.

QUOTE
Could Nagini somehow be persuaded to attack the "human" LV? And if she did, what would the outcome of such an attempt be? It seems likely that by drinking her venom or milk LV has made himself immune to that kind of poison(?); but maybe there's some other twist to it? If she turns against him, perhaps he will kill her?

Nagini seems as fond of LV as he is of her. I think she will have to be killed. I pity the fool who kills her, though. What LV feels for her is the closest thing to love he's ever felt, most likely. I cannot imagine his reaction. **shudder**





Spectrespecs
QUOTE(Arianhrod @ Apr 16 2006, 12:15 AM) [snapback]785566[/snapback]


I'm wondering if Parseltongue won't make it easier for Harry to destroy the Horcruxes. If I were LV, I'd make sure they were secured in a way that no one besides myself would be able to break. Well, until a few years ago, LV thought he was the only Parseltongue. I would have used Parseltongue as the "password" to be able to "enter" the Horcruxes, although he wouldn't destroy them. Now Harry is a Parseltongue as well.


However, it was Dumbledore, not Harry, who dealt with the second Hx, the Ring. Parseltongue might possibly still have been involved, we don't really know. (From the Bob Ogden's memory in the Pensieve, it seems likely that Dd understands Parseltongue, too). Since the Ring was taken care of by Dd without Harry being involved, I seriously doubt if it will really be Harry who destroys all of the remaining Horcruxes. (It just wouldn't seem to fit JKR's usual sense of "symmetry".) My guess is that he will be getting more help with the remaining tasks than he foresees; and that it will turn out to be Love that is the factor LV has forgotten about (as ususal).

QUOTE

Nagini seems as fond of LV as he is of her. I think she will have to be killed. I pity the fool who kills her, though. What LV feels for her is the closest thing to love he's ever felt, most likely. I cannot imagine his reaction. **shudder**


What do we really know about Nagini's "feelings"? And does LV really care for anyone or anything if that person or thing ceases to serve him? If it turns out he does, the mere realization of it might kill him...! wink.gif
Arianhrod
QUOTE
(From the Bob Ogden's memory in the Pensieve, it seems likely that Dd understands Parseltongue, too)

Right--that's what made me think of it. The fact that he doesn't speak it while Harry does may have contributed to his injury, which we do know happened while he was trying to destroy the ring.

QUOTE
What do we really know about Nagini's "feelings"? And does LV really care for anyone or anything if that person or thing ceases to serve him? If it turns out he does, the mere realization of it might kill him...!

Nothing about Nagini's, but even DD says that LV is fonder of Nagini than he is of any human being.
Spectrespecs
Arianhrod, why do you conclude that Dumbledore can't speak Parseltongue? We haven't heard him do so, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he can't - does it? I would find it more logical to conclude that if someone understands a language, they can also speak it (at least to some degree). (I'm just curious to know if you've noticed something in the books about this that I have overlooked.)
Arianhrod
Well, I don't really conclude that he can't speak Parseltongue. I'm assuming he doesn't, and I know I could be wrong. It may be a mistake to assume that he even understands it. If he did, wouldn't he have been able to hear the basilisk in the castle the way Harry did? If he doesn't understand it, maybe he didn't understand what the Gaunts were saying in the memory, and Harry was more or less functioning as an interpreter. He wouldn't need to speak Parseltongue to get the general idea of what was going on there.

I have to go through COS again--I'm pretty sure that there's some mention about Harry and LV being the only Parseltongues, which would definitely exclude DD.

I'll get back to you on that one.
Alchemist Apprentice
sorry momentary break here biggrin.gif

Spectrespecs, I am astounded by this essay~ bloody brillant clap.gif



Continue your thoughts I will be "ringside" while you discuss and I assimilate.....
Kirin
I'm breaking in here too (don't bother me)..

I thought your essay was brilliant! I really liked your view on the tiara, I never really bought it, but you kind of convinced me.

And I'm really surprises how the story seems to fit the arthurian motives! I didn't expect that, mainly because it's so hard to believe Jo did all of this research (and not just yours, which is a huge amount, but on many other topics as well) before she wrote the books, and also managed to make it fit perfectly and tie up all loose ends.

She's just a genius (and you come close).
Spectrespecs
QUOTE(Kirin @ Apr 27 2006, 10:34 PM) [snapback]803455[/snapback]

it's so hard to believe Jo did all of this research --- and also managed to make it fit perfectly and tie up all loose ends.


I agree! I didn't quite realize until I got involved in this forum last summer, how many sources she's actually drawing from. It's amazing how she manages to fit all the different themes together.


This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2010 Invision Power Services, Inc.
CommunitySEO 1.1.4 P1 © 2010  IPB SEO Module