McGonagall tells Rosmerta (PoA, pg. 205, US version): "James Potter told Dumbledore that Black would rather die than tell where they were, that Black was planning on going into hiding himself... and yet, Dumbledore was worried. I remember him offereing to be the Potters' Secret-Keeper himself."

Siruis persuades James to switch the Secret-Keeper to Pettigrew, instead of the most powerful wizard of the age. WHY?

Option #1: Stubborness - they stubbornly wished only to keep the Secret-Keeper position within the Maruaders, and wished to show Dumbledore by not letting him know the real Secret-Keeper (DD testified that Sirius WAS the SK). The Maurders were stubborn, yet why not tell DUMBLEDORE that you switched Secret-Keepers?

Option #2: James, Lily, and/or Mauraders had some kind of mistrust of Dumbledore or disagreement. If so, what is this? Did they think he was paranoid? Were they afraid DD would tell someone?

hhhmmmm the way i remember it, was they wanted dd, but he suggested sirius, then sirius got the potters to pick peter...am i right?

Nope - (See quote above) DD offered to be the SK HIMSELF because he was convinced that the Potters's close friend was a spy (Maruader or other close friend).

So, James REJECTED DD as SK. Was going to use Sirius, then switched to Peter at the last moment (this was Siruis's idea to switch to Peter - again, not to switch to DD).

does is actually say dumbledore was convinced sirius was a spy? i dont have the book infront of me..

McGonagall said he suspected someone close to the Potters. After the murders Dumbledore gave evidence that Sirius had been the secret keeper - and by implication the traitor.

Perhaps because they knew that they would be putting Dumbledore in even greater danger. perhaps they didn't want to put dumbledore in a situation where he had fallen into voldemorts hands (he was already quite old at this time, I suppose it wouldn't seem unlikely that Dumbledore's reflexes would soon start to fade) and voldemort would torture him until he either died or gave him the information. must not have wanted dumbledore to have even more on his plate.

James trusted Sirius with his life, that's why he made him SK. I don't think that it was because he didn't trust DD but just because he trusted Sirius more. I think that DD did not trust any of James friends Lupin, Sirius and Peter.

Dumbleodre was the only one Voldemort ever feared. And he offered to be the secret keeper.

true, but dumbledore was still old and voldemort would be even more motivated to go after him if he knew it would lead him to "the one with the power to vanquish the dark lord."

He was old, but isn't an old Dumbledore better equipped to deal with Voldemort than anyone? The only wizard Voldie ever feared? Trust Peter Pettigrew over (an albeit old) Dumbledore?

As I see it, trust or not, there is a chance that any of these friends could have been a spy, unless you totally discount DD.

Hmm.

but, by there logic, Pettigrew was the safer pick because voldemort had no reason to waist his time with a worthless piece of filth like him. voldemort had pleanty of reasons to go after dumbledore as he was his main opposition, even if he was terrified of him.

Voldemort didn't dare to come to Hogwarts but Sirius and Peter had to go in hiding themselves in order not to be caught by Voldemort.

Well, I guess the point wasn't to protect DD but themselves: If DD is captured or aim of pursuit the hole wizarding world is greatly weakened. And then I guess the Marauders were always a bit overestimating themselves, not really, but a bit, so they thought we can handle that alone. By chosing Pettigrew they thought to have done a really clever thing, not the great man DD who seems to be a perfect choice but an untalented stupid little man.

maybe they just didnt pick dd because dd was the obvious choice.

I think that maybe because Sirius thought no one would suspect Pettigrew. James trusted Sirius and trusted in his plan. I don’t think that they mistrusted DD. I think that they were just being young and foolish thinking that this was something they could handle. I think it was more pride in them than distrust in DD. They also believed that Lupin was the traitor and I am curious why. I can understand that James would trust Sirius with his life but Pettigrew. And what did Lupin did to make them suspect him.

What if Peter deliberately intervened first to have James prefer Sirius to Dumbledore, then to have Sirius suggest the switch? Did Voldemort teach him how to cast Imperius?

I think for the most part it was a pride sort of thing more than suspecting Dumbledore.
I suspect at this point Dumbledore had already given them a lot of help by informing them about the danger among other things and they just didn't want to accept any more help.
Plus Dumbledore being head of the order would have been doing other things and maybe they didn't want to burden him with this as well.

Dumbledore was already pretty much a public figure and therefore already a target. Making him their secret-keeper would have endangered both them and him to what I am sure James believed was an unnecessary degree.

I think Dumbledore was the one person who was not a target. Voldemort feared to even approach him. In any case killing the secret keeper does nothing to help Voldemort's cause. What Voldemort needed was to get the secret keeper to talk, and if anyone knew how to resist Voldemort's methods of persuasion it was Dumbledore.

I'm not sure exactly how this affected their reception of his offer to be SK, but...need to some more...we do know that the Marauders kept their Unregistered Animagus status from Dumbledore, something he himself admitted later was no mean feat. Perhaps there was a desire to keep the matter in the Marauder "family" so to speak, because Dumbledore had "already risked enough on their behalf," for all the Marauders, not just Lupin, well before PoA. Probably it added some degree of convenience not to have to keep it straight who was keeping which secrets from whom.

There's also the matter of the fiery-haired and tempered Lily being like Ginny, considered a "catch" or a "very popular girl." Snape may have been the only guy in his year at Hogwarts who didn't fancy Lily Evans. And jealousy, like Ron's of Krum for Hermione, might lead to overprotecting Lily as the May Queen (Goddess as Great Mother in union with her sacred consort Cernunnos, the Stag-headed god, she of Saille, the month in which May Eve, the festival of love, occurs). James would have trusted Sirius more than Lupin, in that they were closer friends - without the "furry problem" - leaving Lupin something of an odd man out... and Pettigrew's abject loser status made him neither physically nor romantically a threat to the other three. They would probably have found the thought of Pettigrew nursing romantic feelings for anyone, much less Lily, too revolting to consider even for a second, much less take it seriously that Pettigrew wanted to be a contender for her affections to the desperate extent of cutting some feeble deal with Voldemort that Voldy probably had no intention of honoring. Although I doubt that either Sirius or Lupin would have actively competed with James for Lily, I don't find it that unlikely that their dreaming of her was strong enough for the thought to occur to each of them privately that the other one might be capable of acting on the same temptation each one was keeping in check. As this may have been the case, laughingstock Pettigrew would have looked like the safest way to keep ALL the secrets within the Marauders, especially the Unregistered Animagus transformations.

I just have this feeling, knowing Dumbledore -

He may have started telling the Potters some of his plans and concerns (a Marauder or other Order member is a spy, You are in danger and need to go in hiding, Harry is in danger too. You need a will in case Harry is orphaned. I will be contacting your sister, is she your only family, etc.) Not to mention if he mentioned the prophesy (he probably kept this to himself, but I am not sure if he mentioned it in general terms, or if the "Love Sacrifice" protection was a theory they discussed at this time).

Anyway, some of Dumbledore's plans, had he shared them with the Potters, may have sounded reckless at the time. I wonder if this tipped the scale to a weakling instead of the only wizard Voldemort feared....

The way Minerva and Fudge relay the story of the Secret Keeper's Vow, James attitude towards Sirius was almost defensive. Snape's statement that James was arrogant about sticking with Black also makes me think that Dumbledore's approach may have not been as tactful as it could have been.

If Dumbledore became impatient or even insistant that James couldn't trust Sirius, he could have made James angry and it would have helped if Snape was somewhere in James line of site while Dumbledore was making these accusations.

From what Jo and Minerva tells us, James and Lily had been hiding for a year, unawared that it was Peter spying on them. James never considered Sirius as a spy, no considered Peter, so Peter must have played his part well, making certain there was suspicion on Lupin and Sirius. A week or so before they are killed , Dumbledore tells James he has information that Voldemort has targeted them for certain and offeres to be Secret Keeper. Did James want to know Dumbledore's source?

Maybe Sirius thought he could not resist legimancy or the Imperious curse when he made the switch. And I don't think Peter's role is passive. As no one would know about the switch but Lily, James, Sirius and Peter, I think Sirius thought Voldemort would come after him (sirius) to learn where Lily and James were hiding. Of course Sirius wouldn't be able to tell them, no matter what they did to him.

it kind of makes the potter's look bad for not respecting and choosing DD and choosing Sirius instead

That's debatable. Dumbledore is not immortal, flawless or a diety. He trusted Snape and looked how that turned out. We still have no proof that Snape didn't know Peter was the traitor. James and Lily had the right to choose who they wanted to protect their family.

There was really no reason not to go along with Sirius. James was right-Sirius would have died before he betrayed them. And Sirius' plan that no one would guess Peter was the secret keeper was flawless--and the proof that the plan was genius was that even after the betrayal no one guessed that Peter was the Secret Keeper.

IMO :The only person that looks bad and should look bad is Peter. He betrayed everyone.

And Dumbledore wouldn't have been in position to be caught at all.

Ok now DD himself told them that he should be the secret keeper......but no....James had to chose Sirius cause he was James......... and even when DD told him that someone close to him was betraing him ( pettigrew) he didn't stop for a moment and think that when it's a matter of life and death chosing the greatest wizard in the world is the option you should take..... Sorry to say but this was plain arogance and stupidity from James.

Really? What exactly was Snape's mission for Voldemort? He did take the post at Voldemort's bidding.


I think James was suspicious of Dumbledore's source and with good reason.

Killing Dumbledore wouldn't have compromized the secret of the Potters' location. And Dumbledore wouldn't have been at more risk by becoming secret keeper than he already was at as head of the Order. The only thing that would have compromized the secret was getting the secret keeper to *talk*. Dumbledore was probably better practiced at resistance to mind control methods that might have been attempted by Voldemort than Sirius.

There are a number of ways Snape could have gotten the secret from Dumbledore, and I'm certain with Voldemort lighting a flame under his bottom Snape would have thought of them.

Although I'm not fond of blaming the victim and feel strongly calling James --and Lily--arrogant because they did what they felt was best to protect themselves is blaming James and Lily for Peter's betrayal==there are other reasons why I stop short of calling James arrogant.
Perhaps we can look into matters or back story a little deeper than a dismissive "James was arrogant and stupid."
I don't think James or Lily would have been careless about protecting their child. There was more too this.

Just as Harry and Minerva, and Moody, and others who understood Snape a little better than Dumbledore, James to me has a very good reason to at least question Dumbledore's judgement and trust of Snape.

And we cannot forget that Voldemort and Peter are very much involved here.
Peter Pettigrew knew, I think, that he could emotionally manipulate Sirius--maybe even manipulate James and Lily too.

For example Dumbledore comes to James with what he believes --and maybe Snape believed because Peter set him up to think it was Sirius-- is absolute proof of Sirius' treachery. He has time a place, for a Death Eater meeting, code words, or even an impartial witness, or physical evidence. But James knows it couldn't have been Sirius because at the time Sirius was supposed to have meant up with his fellow Death Eater, Lily was reprimanding Sirius who had just Harry a naughty phrase.

James argues to Dumbledore : Can't you see Sirius is being set up!

Dumbledore retaliates pointing out that as a Dark Wizard Sirius could have used any number of dark memory altering spells to make James and Lily believe things that happened didn't, the situation dissolves.

And if Sirius thought Lupin was the traitor, then James did too. I think we can thank Peter for that.

I believe: Peter, Voldemort, and Snape were the problems here. Yes Snape who didn't keep his big mouth shut even though he knew his boss would kill a child is theproblem because he is either covering for Peter, or, because he is blinded by his need for revenge against Sirius and James and their friendship (I think James continued friendship with the man Snape blames for what ever happened at the willow angers him), allowed himself to be played by Voldemort and Peter into fingering the wrong man.

I agree the whole secret keeper set-up was manipulated by Peter (with Voldemort whispering in his ear) from the moment Peter knew Dumbledore suggested it.


There is a hint, from Hagrid, that Voldemort was not in the habit of killing small children. Not by himself, in any case.

PS, chapter 4:
"You-Know-Who killed 'em. An' then - an' this is the real myst'ry of the thing - he tried to kill you, too."

Why was it such a mystery?

Not that I don't hold Snape responsible for his delivery of the prophecy - I certainly do. But I don't think he expected Voldemort to take that line of action (though he should have considered the possibility).

The Fidelius Charm didn't go on GH until the week before LV's attack, so the Secret-Keeper was decided on very late in the course of events. I would think that the reason James and Sirius might agree on preferring Pettigrew to Dumbledore for SK could have to do with their growing suspicions of Lupin as spy, in whom, like Snape, Dumbledore places such an "inexcusable" degree of trust. It may not have been that they did not trust Dumbledore himself, but that they were wary of those to whom Dumbledore might too easily grant access to the information of their whereabouts. In PoA, we learn that Sirius does not know Snape had been hired as a Hogwarts teacher at the beginning of the 1981-82 school year. Then, in GoF, we learn that Sirius did not suspect Snape of being a Death Eater, and had no clue what Harry was talking about when he described Karkaroff showing Snape something on both their arms (the Dark Mark). As the Marauders were all graduated, I suppose there was no reason for Dumbledore to discuss any particular school staffing decisions with the Marauders - or Order Members - and perhaps he felt it was important in Snape's case to be especially discreet given the history of bad blood between them. Still, following the Werewolf Prank (beginning of their 6th year, I think - following right up on SWM after OWLs, June of 5th year), no one was likely to be happy with Dumbledore's trust of Sirius, Lupin, and Snape all together. James may have redeemed himself by warning Snape away at the last moment, but Pettigrew would have seemed like the only totally innocent party. That is, here's Dumbledore making apologies (explanations) for Snape, Lupin, and Sirius - who are all very busy pointing fingers at each other, and what IS James to think about Dumbledore's trying to get him to accept all these people who are at the same time arguing that he should not trust the other ones? Pettigrew as SK begins to look like a way to cut through the Gordian Knot. From what Lupin says, at least in the film PoA (and I think he may say something similar in the book), Lily was like Dumbledore - seeing the good in and believing the best of people - and thus she probably did not distrust either Lupin or Sirius.

As I said before, I think Pettigrew nurtured Lupin and Sirius's suspicions of each other as semiconscious aspirants to Lily's favor, all the while coveting her for himself as a sort of trophy. Mythologically, the May Queen embodies the principle of Sovereignty, so that whoever "possesses" her wields authoritative power over others. Such magic - of life, love, and fertility - would not appeal to Snape's predilection for the Dark Arts at all, and I don't think he'd want to be beholden to another person, particularly a Muggle-born female, for his power, whereas Pettigrew of course has neither that much pride nor shame (depending on how you look at it). Somehow, I think that if Snape had known Pettigrew and not Sirius was the traitor, events would have unfolded differently than they did... The important thing to know whether Snape knew was not whether Pettigrew was an animagus, but whether Snape was aware that Pettigrew was the Secret Keeper. Re-reading the Shrieking Shack conversation in PoA, up to the point that Snape was knocked out, there were too many ellipses in the exchanges between Lupin and Black - the words "Secret Keeper" or "Fidelius Charm" were NOT mentioned, and it is described as Lupin looking into Black's eyes so intently that it looked like he was trying to read his mind. We know that Snape has not caused the floor to creak or the door to seem to open "of its own accord" before this, so there is no way that Snape could have understood by legilimency that they were talking about Pettigrew being switched with Sirius as the Potters' Secret Keeper.

Anyway, to sum up my idea, it's that Pettigrew fostered jealousy and confusion among the other Marauders thus cultivating at least in James doubts about Dumbledore's judgments on whom to trust - because of the Werewolf Prank in which Dumbledore had demonstrated trust in all of them, and Snape as well.

Dumbledore must have said something a year before: Sirius reveals that Peter had been spying for Voldemort for over a year.

Good point. I like it. Of course they would have to fool Lupin as well, especially if they thought he was a Death Eater.



Yup. And Jo tells us Lupin was very fond of Lily: he didn't compete with James--but Lupin wouldn't think himself worthy of love--or afraid of it. But did that stop him from an envious, abeit playful statement about wishing he was in James shoes.

But in POA what interest me is Snape's calling James's trust in Sirius arrogant. I really think James forgiving Sirius is a sore spot--I really want to know more about the Prank--as in what James said to Sirius.

I thought the mystery was that Harry was still breathing?

Could they possibly not want Dumbledore as SK because he thought there was a traitor amoung the muraders and their close friends? I mean there could have been a possibility that they were offended that DD would even think that one of their close friends would betray them, and so they made Sirius th SK to show DD that they trust their friends with their safty and that none of their friends would betray them.

I don't think James and Lily were offended by the suggestion. But Sirius apologizes to Lupin for thinking he was the traitor and vice versa. The only person who had motive and opportunity to turn the two men against each other is Peter.

The question is how he managed this. I think Lupin's affectons for Lily came into play, as well as the Prank, and Sirius' unfortunate relations, first, second, possibly third cousins in the Death Eaters. I also think James gving Dumbledore his cloak might have been a result of Dumbledore or someone else putting suspicion on Sirius.

In the shack we see Peter trying to play one of his ex-friends against each other. He appeals to Sirius emotions, saying he was never as strong, he was frightened, he appeals to Lupin's logic.

I don't think that was the case.I'm pretty sure that they knew that someone like Dumbledore wouldn't betray them.I think it shows how much trust they had in their friends by using Sirius and Peter and not using someone as powerful as Dumbledore.

It could be just as simple as wanting to choose one of their close friends rather than someone they were still young enough to regard as an authority figure.

On top of that authrority figure who refused to listen to reason from James point--if Dumbledore was trying overly hard to prove to James that Sirius was the traitor. If Peter was as clever as suggested by the fact he gets away with betrayal for over a year and can hide out for twelve years without even his best of friends realizing what he had done, he probably manipulated matters to make it look as though Dumbledore's suspicions were completely biased.

I've always thought it was a marauder thing.
Like, all for one and one for all.
If I do remember correctly sirus said the HE was the SK at some point. But then convinced james to change it to peter. I don't believe that sirius was considered at traitor UNTIL after the potters were killed.
And I also think that the switch from sirus to peter was at the last minute as in the day before kinda thing.So only peter,potters and sirus knew.
What I don't get though is why Lupin didn't know or why wasn't he chosen over peter?? It's always a possibility that he wasn't there (off as a spy with the other werewolves?).

Sirius and James thought Lupin was the traitor. In POA Sirius and Lupin both apologize to each other. It is obvious by his behavior in the shack that Peter played them against one another. As Peter was the Death Eater he had the means to offer absolute proof to show Lupin and Dumbledore (and maybe Snape) that Sirius was guilty, and proof to show James and Sirius that Lupin was guilty.

As Voldemort had manipulated Snape close to Dumbledore then it is logical that Snape either knowingly or unknowingly provided additional evidence to place the blame on Sirius. Either way, Voldemort could use Snape to help isolate Dumbledore from James, by convincing Dumbledore of something James possibly had absolute proof of--Sirius was not the traitor.

It occured to me that as Harry is yelling at Dumbledore about Snape and trusting him, Dumbledore is hearing an echo of James arguement that Sirius would never betray him.

If James thought Lupin was the traitor and could see that Dumbledore absolutely refused to listen to reason, why would he tell Lupin anything about where they were hiding or their plans? Lupin might not have known about the Secret Keeper Charm until after James and Lily were killed and Dumbledore gave the MOM information so they would hunt down Sirius.

You mentioned how they were able to keep their animagus status from Dumbledore. I think this is the big reason they were not comfortable as using him as a secret keeper. If the four of them were able to fool or hide something from such a great wizard when they were in school that would undermine their confidence in Dumbledore's abilities. I don't think their relationship with Dumbledore was anything like Harry's. I think they were much more distant. I am not sure what all Dumbledore would have risked on their behalf besides letting Lupin attend Hogwarts. I could see James behaving much like Sirius did in OotP and being resentful that he was forced to stay in hiding while others were out fighting, especially if Snape was in the picture as a spy by that point.





I agree that Peter's played a big part in making sure he became the secret keeper. I also do think the prank created some tension between Lupin and Sirius which Peter could take full advantage of causing each of them to be suspicions of each other. He may have also tried to convince them that Dumbledore would be a poor choice by bringing up all they got away with at Hogwarts. I think Peter is much more manipulative than he is given credit for.

Also, Sirius said that the original plan was for him to become Lily and James' Secret Keeper and then go into hiding himself. When the plan changed to Peter, the latter part remained--the Secret Keeper was supposed to go into hiding as well. Dumbledore would never have hidden and let the war continue without him--plus, the Marauders wouldn't have wanted to deprive the Order and the good side of their staunchest and most formidable ally. James and Lily probably believed that their cause could survive without them, Sirius, etc. But they would never have taken Dumbledore out of the equation, would never remove "the only one that Voldemort ever feared" from the battle.

I think this all goes back to Harry's dad being a bit arrogant. I think it went something like this: DD probably said, "James, one of your friends is a spy; I need to be the SK." James said, " None of my friends would ever betray me. I trust them and just to prove it I'll make one of them the SK." I think his big head got himself killed. It was probably Lily more than James that was suspicious of Lupin, I could see James steadfastly refusing to believe a friend was a spy.

I think he loved and trusted his friends a lot and did not want to think of them as a spy I mean I wood not like to think that my friends are spying on me its like he was trying to see the best in his friends

I think DD was already a secret keeper for the OoTP HQ and probably one can't be secret keeper for multiple places.

[
Since Dumbledore offered himself as Secret Keeper he evidently was capable of holding yet another secret in his soul.

Maybe not every wizard can hold more then one secret but because DD was really good with magic then he could and his also really kind but maybe James and lily didn’t want him to put himself under so much stress of it

I don't think arrogance played a big role in the decision. I mean, it is one thing to be arrogant and cocky when you're fifteen, in school, and are responsible for no one and nothing besides yourself. It is a completely different story, a completely different viewpoint, a completely different approach when you have not only yourself but also a wife and infant son that you are responsible for.

On top of that, I don't get the impression that Dumbledore said that he "needed to be the Secret Keeper." It just said that he offered.

James and Lily (because I do not believe that the decision fell to just one of them--they would have made the decision together) both probably were honored and pleased that Dumbledore offered, but chose to trust someone that they were closer too. In that same situation, I probably would have done the same thing--they weren't looking for the most powerful wizard (because if that was their deciding factor, there wouldn't have been any debate--the winner of that contest is Dumbledore, hands down). They were looking for someone close to them that they trusted with their lives--you have to remember that James and Lily didn't have the close personal relationship with Dumbledore that Harry has. Yes, they chose wrongly, but their hearts were in the right place--they put their personal relationships (their trust, their friendship, their emotions) above the sheer power of the individual that would protect them. There is no more powerful motivator, no more powerful moral support than that of friendship and true caring. If Wormtail had been a true friend (or if they'd gone with Sirius, like they originally intended), there would have been no safer place for James and Lily to hide--because that friendship would have held them (Wormtail or Sirius or Lupin, if he'd been chosen) firm in the face of danger and death.

sorry to beat an old and dead horse, but an obvious answer just popped up: Dumbledore is an educator. No matter what else he does, his first and foremost responsibility is to the safety of his students. Lily and James probably knew this and saw the problem with making DUmbeldore their SK. Say Voldemort somehow get's in a position where he's like "ALright, tell me where the potter's are or i'll kill a bunch of your students" i think that's the kind of situation that their wanted to avoid

Actually, that is a good point, using Dumbledore as secret keeper would potentially put him and the school at increased risk, so maybe James and Lily preferred Sirius who had less to lose.

I since Sirius was James best friend he gave him the job as secret keeper also as an honor