At 51 pages, the last version of this thread was getting very large. Thanks to Maime the Hunter for creating such an active discussion!

Please continue the discussion and you can reference the prior thread, here.

Everyone knew what company Snape kept at school, but it isn't clear who knew or could have known with whom he hung around later.

What I wonder about is what was going on between Remus and the rest. On the one hand, if he was suspected then Sirius and James would be less in touch with him. Yet in POA, when he says "unless you switched ... without telling me" (not 'without telling anyone') it seems as though he expected to have been in the know of such details based on their level of communication at the time.

(Sorry to start a new thread without anything earth shatering.)

Shame on you Oryx (just kidding)! The lack of communication could be explained by the fact that Lupin seemed to be active for the Order just like Sirius was and that maybe he had gone underground again on Dumbledore's orders to infiltrate the werewolves and gather information, just as he does in the second war. Or his duties entailed entirely different purposes. And if Lupin was suspected, that could explain Sirius' and James' caution in not telling him about the change in SK, or maybe not telling Lupin was merely for his own protection.

Maime the Hunter focuses on the James/Lily relationship, but there's actually a much more important aspect to her comment:
You've hit upon one of the most critical elements and themes of the overall storyline in the books - the almost total lack of information which Harry has about his parents. In fact, concealment of information, misleading details, and even outright deception are quite critical to the books as far as Harry's knowledge of James and Lily goes. It's rather like a detective story (which has been mentioned on another thread, including JKR's own reference to Dorothy Sayers): Harry not only has to survive his own battles, but has to find out essential information, much of which people don't think he should know, or needs to know.

In PS/SS, DD tells Harry that Lily died to save him, and that love leaves its mark; he mentions the rivalry between Snape and James, but skates over it and almost trivialises it; DD also mentions that James owned the Invisibility Cloak which he used for sneaking to the kitchens. DD of course doesn't let on anything about the real significance of the Cloak, which we much later realise is a very important bit of concealment as well. The next 'real' bits of information come in POA, and much of that was the conversation in the Three Broomsticks which Harry overheard concerning Sirius - in other words, nobody thought he ought to be told about the friendship between his father and Sirius. So Harry has to 'overhear' hidden details. Lupin avoids the issue as much as possible, and it is only in the Shrieking Shack scene that we start getting down to the 'real' information. In the aftermath of that, DD mentions that he knew James well at school and also afterwards - but there is no mention of Lily, or the possibility that she too might have spared Wormtail. It's only in Book 7 we realise that she too was the sort of person who would have been merciful in that situation. So DD has engaged in yet another really neat bit of concealment - he focuses on James, because (as we now realise from the Lily/Snape subplot) DD probably does not want Harry to start asking too many awkward questions about his mother and what she was like.

The theme of concealment goes on, and in OotP we have an important parallel to POA, when Harry sees SWM in the Pensieve, and finds out about his father, and also - critically - gets his first look at Lily and schoolboy Snape. Like POA, Harry wasn't supposed to find this out at all: JKR has to use another device (the Pensieve) for him to discover hidden knowledge and begin to understand what adults are hiding. He tackles Sirius and Remus about it, but the situation means they cannot talk to him at length, so once again, all of Harry's natural follow-up questions are 'conveniently' cut off. Also obvious to many of us is the apparent lack of conversation between Harry, Sirius and Remus when Harry is at GP: for a boy who was so desperately interested in his parents, it has always seemed strange to many of us that Harry didn't use that time to have some long talks (to Sirius at least) about James and Lily. But JKR couldn't have that, because in those discussions, Harry might have discovered the original friendship between Snape and Lily. So she creates a somewhat artificial situation where Harry - for once! - doesn't ask questions and get curious.

It is only after Sirius's death in OotP that DD starts to level with Harry about certain things, but even then, we come to suspect that there is so much he is still not saying. The truth finally comes out in DH (as with all good detective novels, LOL), and we realise just how much DD and Snape have been concealing all these years.

So in the context of all this, and to go back to MtH's comment about James/Lily as a couple, I would not expect DD to have ever talked about James and Lily as a couple. It never arose in any context where DD "had" to make any comment; Sirius and Remus "conveniently" didn't talk to Harry in OotP. And of course, DD really didn't want Harry asking too many questions about his parents at all, because any questions about their romance, or about Lily at school, would have risked disclosure of her friendship with Snape. And that could easily have led to a whole box of other questions which both Snape and DD wanted to keep closed.

We can interpret the HP books as a classic Hero's quest, with the Hero gradually growing up, discovering his own strength, and ultimately achieving his goal by defeating the monster. But the books are also a type of detective story, where the hero detective and his assistants have to discover critical information - and for various reasons, people don't want him to know that information, or not know it "now". And so we have this underlying pattern of half-truths, concealment and chance discoveries in relation to Harry's parents (and other things), all of which are designed to lead the Hero to "the Truth" at the appropriate time.

Alkari

Great point Alkari - I mentioned before how odd it seemed to me that no one ever mentions Snape and Lily's childhood relationship to Harry - Harry even has a chat about Snape with Sirius and later Remus - yet this info never comes out. When reading the books I recall feeling frustrated by the unwillingness of adults to really give Harry info he so obviously needs.

Why would they want to tell Harry about Lily and Snape? the people around Harry dislike Snape, and probably think of that friendship as something almost shameful that needs to be hidden from Harry so as not to tarnish his mother's memory in his eyes. Probably the only two people who thought otherwise were Dumbledore and Snape, who had their own reasons for secrecy.

They wouldn't - that's just the point! One of Harry's first questions to DD, back in PS/SS, was why Snape disliked him so much yet worked to save him, and we get DD's comment about Snape's 'debt' to James and going back to hating James in peace. A very neat piece of deception! ANY mention of the Snape / Lily friendship from anyone, even in passing, as a comment on Lily and her friends at school for example, could have led Harry to ask some questions about why Snape still hated him if he was friends with his mother - and that could have led Harry down a dangerous trail, which might have given away Snape's spy status. So no-one mentions Lily and Snape in the same breath: the emphasis is very carefully kept on James.

And as a teenage boy, Harry's own focus is rather more on his father, and a father figure, than on his mother. JKR cleverly uses this 'natural' focus to have all of Harry's questions and attention directed towards James and his friends, rather than on what his mother was like.

Alkari

I'm not quite sure I follow you here. I can certainly understand why Dumbledore and Snape would want to keep the information that Snape and Lily were friends from Harry - but I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'giving away Snape's spy status'. It wasn't a secret that Snape was working for the Order as a double-agent, was it?

As for Sirius and Lupin and the rest, I'd have to agree with Oryx here and state that neither of them cared much for Snape - they had probably conveniently forgotten the fact that Lily and Snape were friends at all, and if not, they certainly weren't going to bring that fact to light. But I'm not sure why they'd want to keep mum about that in order to help protect Snape's status...?

Forgive me if I'm missing the obvious - I'm rather tired at the moment, but if you could clear this up for me, I'd appreciate it!

Sorry Oryx - should have made it clearer! What I meant was that JKR wouldn't have wanted to "them" i.e. any of her characters, to discuss the Lily/Snape relationship in any detail, or even mention the fact that they were friends, because that would have given rise to obvious questions which Harry should have asked, and would have given away very obvious clues as to the likelihood that Snape may have been motivated in some respects by feelings for Lily. And as a plot point, she wanted to keep the Lily/Snape part as something that was open to speculation until Book 7.

I don't believe that the staff at Hogwarts are blind and deaf to student relationships, feuds or friendships. In a boarding school, where it seems that most of the staff live-in, they see the students 7 days a week, both in and out of class, and the staff would have to be deaf, blind and downright dumb not to notice who was holding hands with whom in the corridors, who was keeping company out of class, who was hanging around with whom on weekends, etc. They all knew of the James/Sirius friendship, and even though that was an obvious one because of the boys' general status in the school, some staff would probably have also known of Lily's friendship with Snape. Clearly, no-one apart from DD and Snape knew of Snape's spy status when he returned to teach at the school: but when he was a student, I cannot believe that by the time he was in fifth year, staff such as McGonagall wouldn't have noticed the Lily/Snape friendship, even in general terms, and were therefore likely to have mentioned it in a casual discussion about Harry's parents. Just something simple along the general lines of someone musing: "Funny how things work out, isn't it - Snape and Potter were enemies from the first, yet Lily was a friend of Snape's for quite a while. Yet she ended up falling in love with Potter and marrying him... And the responses to that." Imagine if Harry had overheard that sort of discussion in POA in the Three Broomsticks!

Of course, there was a general reluctance from everyone to talk about Lily + James to Harry, and given the small size of the wizarding world, it seems remarkable that none of the students at school ever said something to Harry like "my Mum says she was a friend of your mother's at school".

So from this perspective, I am suggesting that it was "convenient" for JKR to ensure that Harry only ever heard comments concerning his father and Sirius. It was also essential that any discussion of his parents was very limited, with a James focus, and that Harry himself was not curious about his mother.

Alkari

I'm Oxymoronic - not Oryx - but no worries, those O's, X's and Y's can get tricky!

I also appreciate your explanation. I too always wondered at Harry's lack of curiosity regarding his parents, particularly when he was stuck in that wretched house in OoTP.

However, for my sake (as all us readers tend to work things out for ourselves in our minds), I told myself that Harry was rather preoccupied with getting over the come-back of Voldemort, worrying about what was happening, and dealing with his growing pains.

Doesn't entirely make up for the fact that he never bothered to sit down for a heart-to-heart with his godfather, but there you have it.

Although Sirius and Lupin knew Lily and Snape were friends, I don't think they realized, as Jo says James realized, that Snape feelings for Lily had grown beyond friendship. Sirius hated Snape because his interest in the Dark Arts and he was always following them around. Lupin and Sirius are amused by Harry's thinking that his mother hated James, so they might have been aware of when Lily started to notice James. Of course if they knew about Snape hanging out trying to talk to Lily after he called her a Mudblood, they might have guessed he liked her, but as Lily never liked Snape more than a friend, they would dismissed it.

But is the concealment of the "truth" designed so that at the appropriate time Harry and the readers have any more insight to Lily and James' relationship than we started out with?

We knew in the first book, because Voldemort tells us, that James was brave in the end and his mother didn't have to die. We knew they loved each other. We knew Snape and James hated each other. We know that James was a true friend to Sirius and Lupin and that he would spare the life of someone, even if he disliked him. We knew from the Pensieve that Lily would take up for someone and didn't stand for cruelty towards another. We hear some of what happened the night James and Lily were killed in POA.

The truth that is revealed helps Harry therefore the readers understand Snape's relationship with his mother, Snape's change of allegiance at the time his parents were killed, and Dumbledore's understanding of Snape. But at the end of the books there were still threads dedicated to "why did Lily marry James?" or variations of the subject.

We know Dumbledore kept the Invisibility Cloak: Page 715 DH

But we don't know why, with so much at stake, James and Lily turned down Dumbledore's protection, and are left with Snape's explanation: James' arrogant trust in Sirius.

Then again, some of the proof of Lily's and James attraction to each other is evident in Lily's personality. When Snape first sees her, Lily is, according to Petunia, breaking her parents rules about using her gifts. And she's using a swing to fly--it appears Harry's love of flying comes from both parents.
I would say, there is enough to fill in the blanks as to what James and Lily were like as a team.

Continuing on with the theme of fathers: Consider Jo's comments or intent Sirius as a reckless Guy to choose for Godfather. She does not say, it was not the best time in anyone's life, but that Sirius was a reckless guy.

Before she said this, Sirius confession that he persuaded James and Lily to choose Peter, seemed just Sirius blaming himself for a mistake they all made. And as the novels go, I still see nothing to suggest that it was a mistake all three adults made. However, Jo's comment about Sirius was a reckless guy to choose, makes me wonder if Jo intended us to agree with Sirius. The choice of Peter was his mistake alone.
Or it could be Sirius is single, and would have had he not gone to Azkaban, remained single.
I recall when my children were young and custody was an issue, I could think of nothing more frightening than single fathers who were as competent as one expected a single mother to be. That may or may not be an factor in Jo's attitude towards Sirius.

At another time statement that Sirius wanted to be a friend to Harry and Harry needed a father was interesting as well, because I was not certain, given his position, how much more of a father Sirius could have been for Harry. If it were her intent to show that Sirius as a person was not ready to learn and accept that the responsibilities of a father are different than that of a friend, I didn't see that at all--at least in the books. The movies were a bit different.

In the novels the circumstances under which Sirius and Harry were brought together were posed to work against them. But nothing in Sirius' behavior suggests that in peace time he would not have made a decent father, but maybe not every defines a decent father in the same way. A decent father or parent is one who does the best he or she can. A good parent is one who is willing to make sacrifices and Sirius was posed to do that. A good parent is one who is prepared to say Do as I say, not as I did, and you will fare better, and Sirius was prepared to do that.

At thirteen Harry had long outgrown the need for bedtime stories and needing someone to tuck him in. He needed someone to help work out the difficulties of gown up values. With the exception of Kreacher, Sirius' values were intense but loyalty and honesty are good things to teach Harry. Harry needed someone to talk to and Sirius was there for him, to listen, to encourage him, as much as he could be. When Harry voiced concerns Sirius knew he could not solve, Sirius had the common sense to go to Dumbledore. I don't see Harry as needing more from Sirius than Sirius was ready to give him.

Yes. Because during OotP, especially after the SWM scene, Harry suddenly has these terrible doubts about the relationship between his parents, and "how" they came to marry. He even imagines that James somehow 'forced' her! It's easy to laugh at those fears, but for Harry they were very real, because he didn't in fact have the necesary knowledge of his parents to deal with what he saw in SWM. Now, it is perfectly true that we don't know the exact circumstances of how / when Lily and James fell in love (other than it was in seventh year), but after DH we (and Harry) have a whole new perspective on Lily, her values, and the fact that she terminated a friendship on the basis of moral principles and a fundamental conflict of beliefs. We certainly don't learn everything about J/L in DH, but we don't need to. At the end of DH they are back in their rightful position as a loving couple and loving parents of Harry, and we appreciate Lily a whole lot more because of the glimpses we saw of her - the letter to Sirius, and the memories/ flashbacks from Snape and Voldemort.

That new understanding of his parents helps Harry in that journey into the Forest: he doesn't need to question them, or their love for him or each other, because he now knows the truth.

Alkari

But you still get a large group within fandom who aren't at all clear about what there was about James that was likable and what Lily might have seen in him, or readers who see the two scenes of Lily and Severus in 5th year and conclude she never really liked him, she was just using him as a source of information on the wizarding world and once that was no longer necessary becasue she had new magical friends she was no longer his real friend (though she did hang out with him still). All those missing years get filled in very differently by different people.

The story jumps from Lily thinking James is an arrogant toe rag, to someone she falls deeply in love with and marries. So, for me, this gap isn't easily explained. And I am one of those people that fills in the blanks according to what I believe could have happened.

I was not one to believe that Lily necessarily used Snape for information about the wizarding world; it always seemed to me that Snape liked bragging about his knowledge to her; she was a willing listener.

I don't think that Lily was using Snape for his knowledge of the Wizarding World - they were in a relationship (that doesn't mean that it has to be a romantic one), and that involves a give and take. Snape gave her information about herself, and Lily validated his assessment of her by proving that she was indeed what he said she was. That is a very heady "place" to be in, and as we see in the entire Potter series, it is information that is amongst the most prized and sought after "possessions" - whether it be obtained by from a diviner, an instructor, a best friend, a traitiorous lackey or a gossip columnist. One of the lessons that I see is that you have to weigh for yourself the knowledge you have, a determine if it is enough to make a competent choice for your actions.

Who knows why Snape became a Deatheater...considering he was a mudblood himself. It was said here or in another thread before that people generally despise what they hate most about themselves. When Snape called Lily a mudblood, it was just as much directed towards himself, if not more so, than Lily. In a way, by becoming a Deatheater, he was trying to validate himself , because as we saw with his identification of Lily being a witch, that he needed external approval and recognition for being "right". He follows this pattern throughout the books: from his margin notes as The Half Blood Prince, which Harry validates as being superior to the textbook writer and Hermione (the best in the class) herself, to being at the right place at the right time to hear Trelawney's prophecy. He is almost uncanny in his ability to assess a situation and come to a correct conclusion, but lacks the confidence in himself to leave what best be left alone - he consistently tries to draw attention to himself for his "greatness", because he always lacked approval for simply being himself.

Lily, on the other hand, is open and willing to take another's assessment, but has the confidence not to take herself too seriously. Even though she is a witch, her abilities are always tempered by her sister's disapproval (born out of jealousy), and she has to adjust herself accordingly to maintain some sort of familial harmony. Snape, Voldemort and James don't have any sibling to temper their impulsive behavior (Lily is also the younger sister - who was brought up to mind her elder, as is common in many families), so what is initially recognized as being the "arrogant toe-rag" James, seems to be more of a corrolation for one who feels like they don't have to answer to anyone. Snape and Voldemort share the same "qualities", but since James had a close group of friends who became like brothers , it fostered a sibling relationship that eventually tempered him and allowed him to develop the empathy to put forth the needs of others before his own. This, is what I think turned Lily around to see the beauty in James, and also Severus' inability to see anything beyond himself and his need for validation.

Snape is a half-blood: his mom Eileen Prince was a witch, and his father a muggle. That's why he gave himself the moniker Half Blood Prince. It's probably correct to assume that Snape despised the muggle part of himself.

Hmmm...maybe I got the terms muddled? I thought that mudblood meant mixed blood, and could apply to both non "Pureblood" and "Muggleborns"...or am I totally off with that?

Exactly. His hesitation when he answered Lily's question about her being Muggle-born shows where the line of bigotry in the wizarding world lay - between those of any wizarding parentage and those with none. And it wasn't Snape's prejudice alone, it is a very common one in the wizarding world.

momwitch, in COS Ron says "Mudblood's a really foul name for someone who is Muggle-born - you know, non-magic parents."

I apologize for calling you out on that . I always thought that Mudblood was a derogatory word used purely for Muggle borns only; both parents Muggles. (I believe it was Hermione herself who explained this to Harry after Ron's self-slugging backfire jinx in Hagrid's hut in COS). I apologize if I am confusing the events from the movie ).

Ah, but as post DH fanfictions and discussions would suggest, what the book needed to be complete, and what fans wanted to see or understand are two very different things.

This is not to say I don't agree with you, but as with the question as to whether Snape suffered from self-hatred due to his bloodline, certain aspects are not as clear to read between the line or take from inferences as Jo or some readers because of different experiences may think are evident in the book.

I thought Harry resolved the matter with his father before the end of OOP. It seemed that he put it in perspective and decided that although his father may not have been perfect in relationship to Severus Snape, James earned the respect he had by seventh year and grew beyond this fit of jealous, peevishness on this one day. James did not outgrow what ever Jo defines as arrogance. But, isn't it necessary to take a firm stand--that is to put your life on the line for a stand like at seventeen or eighteen joining the Order--to be a bit arrogant? One must have certainty in this instance that what he or she is fighting against or for is right.

Take away the fact that Mulciber is pond scum, (thank you Diane...it's a television reference); what right did Lily have to judge Snape's friends? Isn't that a bit of arrogance on her part? Lily and James were more alike than different. Love blinds Snape to this, but I think Harry was able to see this.

Because there are still question as to why Lily loved James, or did Snape like Voldemort, respond to his societies racism with shame in a part of his heritage we can still examine if reader inference and interpretation match the artist intent. Are some things--remember Jo's Wink/wink, it's a girl thing comment about Lily's feelings for James. Note Jo is explaining this very obvious hint of Lily's to a "woman".



Mudbloods are Muggleborn. Halfblood could be consider a racist term also, as I'm certain a Muggleborn witch has the same amount of magical genes as well as Muggle genes as a Pureblood.
But Halfblood is rather like the term "black". When I was a young girl calling a Black person, "Black" could get you a bloody nose. Now what was the preferred term of the time--Negro--could start a fight. It just goes to show how absurd racist terminology is.

Indeed this is movie-contamination. In the book Hermione only recognizes the name as derogatory from everyone's reactions, the explanation comes from Ron and Hagrid.

You very well could be right about the amount of genes; and yes, half-blood could be considered racist as well. Jo says on her website that "magic is a dominant and resilient gene". She was talking about Squibs in particular and that they could be viewed as the opposite of Muggle borns. It sounds like she is talking about autosomal dominant pattern of inheritance; only one parent needs to be the proband/carry the gene with the mutation; in this case, the mutation is magic. Another important characteristic of dominant genes (as far as mutations go) is that in some cases, they can have "reduced penetrance". This means that sometimes a person can have a dominant mutation but not show any signs or effects (which can explain why Hermione's parents did not have magical powers). So Hermione, or any "Mudblood" may actually have two dominant gene mutations. So, given this, there shouldn't be any distinction between half-bloods, mudbloods, purebloods. (Sorry for the boring explanation: I used to be a Molecular Geneticist).

Oryx, I have been having a bad case of "movie contamination" lately .

No, it was directed at Lily. He meant it or he wouldn't have said it. Ron is jealous of Hermione. He calls her (and his sister) a scarlett woman, which isn't much better from a purely feminine point of view. But Ron wouldn't have called Hermione a filthy mudblood under any circumstances because the very meaning of the term offended him and everything he thinks about himself and what defines a wizard.

Snape, it seems, did not want her to know this is what he thought of her background, and he didn't want to hurt her because it meant exactly what did happen--she would cut him off. He had obviously, if Lily had to defend his actions to her friends, tried to hide this part of himself from Lily, or Lily didn't want to see it because he was her friend, and because, (this is personal and kind of joke), it would mean Petunia was right about Snape. He is a horrible boy. The only thing worst than admitting an older sibling was right about a friend or boyfriend or spouse, is admitting a parent was right.

Snape's attitude towards Lily and other Muggleborn resembles the terms and resulting laws that came out America's slavery, like mulatto, quadroon, or octoroon. The latter does not define person who is part coconut cookie but illustrates very much what Jo says she was trying to illustrate using these terms: Why are some people in the wizarding world (e.g., Harry) called 'half-blood' even though both their parents were magical?
http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/en/faq_view.cfm?id=58

However, Momwitch, I do agree that Snape's is not a healthy attitude towards Lily or himself. He loves her in spite of the fact that she is Muggle-born. In a perfect world it would have better that he loved simply loved Lily because of all that she was, including a Muggle born. But not to note that she is Muggle born would have been a lie because of the racism in their society, not in the person. Snape was as victimized by the racism as Lily, but he couldn't see it because he knew limited acceptance by the Purebloods or in this case the establishment.

It is too easy to conclude that Snape couldn't have been prejudice because he loved Lily, but I do not believe it is accurate. Identifying with Lily, the perception is if Snape didn't love her, he would hate her or dismiss her as a filthy mudblood as he does all the rest of her kind.

Looking at the matter from Snape side, we get confused, blinded by Severus' love/passion for Lily. But Severus Snape, from Lily's point of view, is yet another person calling for the take over of the wizard world in order to control the flow of Muggleborns through genocide of her friends. Snape who felt he had the right to violate her sisters privacy and dismissed her sister's feelings because she was Only a Muggle was yet another person who saw the torture and killing of non magical people like Lily's sister, mother and Father nor mor eggregious than sport. (See Arthur's explanation in GOF Page 143 GOF USA version)

It is hard to get a grip on what Snape felt the blood issue because, even though Harry's eyes, we only see Severus side of things. Snape is blind to his own motives and choices, in denial about his own responsiblity.

We emphasize with Snape because James dangles him upside down with Snape's own spell. We often gloss over the fact that Snape glosses over what Dark Magic thing Mulciber was prepared to do Mary, in the same exact Snape employs redirection here:



Back up--it was dark magic, and here is the Dark hex creator himself , soon to be a Death Eater saying it was funny. Heck even Harry and Ron thought the HBP hexes were cool, and didn't see himself drawn into Darkness until he nearly killed someone. But as the first war was on and Voldemort had drawn in his first followers with the mantra of putting Purebloods in charge and getting rid of Muggleborns--Snape is not ignorant of the Darkness. He is courting it and with much more intensity and purpose than he courts Lily.

Sorry, I know this topic was discussed a while ago, but I wasn't on Leaky for "a while". It figures that the one day I'm not on Leaky, the most number of posts seem to be made!

Many posters seem to be under the impression that Sirius and James knew that Snape and Lily were friends (which is probably because of the way that Lily stood up for Snape in SWM). However, I never really got that impression. I don't think that just because Lily stood up for Snape implied that they were friends, especially for the reasons she gave for defending him: "What has he ever done to you?". Also, Snape's use of the term Mudblood on Lily, and her response, don't exactly suggest a friendly connection between the two people. So, even if Harry had talked about his parents with Sirius and/or Remus (which I think he did - I'll explain more later), there wouldn't be the risk of Harry finding out about their friendship. Only DD seemed to know about this, and he obviously avoided revealing it.

Back to Harry asking about his parents: I would not be the least bit surprised if he did ask about them. On a number of occasions, Jo gives us the impression that Harry longs for information about them (what he sees in the Mirror of Erised is one of the strongest pieces of evidence, but he was going to ask Lupin about his dad after one of his anit-Dementor lessons once he realised Lupin knew Sirius). So why do we not see these scenes (other than the one in OotP when Harry asks about SWM)? Because none of these conversations added to Harry's story. We do see instances in which Harry is favourably compared to James other than his physical resemblance, including DD in PoA, as well as Lily, but we don't see Harry and Sirius having lengthy discussions of what James (or Lily) was like, because none of these conversations were important to the plot.

James was looking at the girls by the lake when he attacked Snape. He was doing so deliberately in Lily's view. This indicates he knew Lily would be bothered by the attack. Besides, I can't see how 2 people from different Houses could see one another frequently enough for 5 years without it becoming generally known.

SWW happened at the end of their fifth year. How could James and Sirius have failed to notice the Lily/Sev friendship for five years? Five years when Lily had stood up for Sev more than once.


So we're supposed to imagine several Harry/Sirius talks that doesn't even get a mention? And Harry never thinks back on them later on? No, it was important to the plot Harry didn't know much until DH.

Yes, but not necessarily because Snape was the victim. Wasn't Lily a Prefect in Hogwarts? She probably would have put a stop to James bullying any student (which Lily elludes that he does rather frequently).



Why not? What sort of things would they have talked about? All the little adventures they had, probably, and those aren't remotely related to Harry's story (besides, we hear about them in vague details from Lupin's story). We know for sure that Sirius talked about his own family in OotP - how could they not discuss someone that connects them both?

We don't know that for certain. We have Hagrid saying she was Head Girl, but he also said James was Head Boy, and we have Sirius' word that James wasn't a prefect.


So if James and Sirius really were first cousins once removed Harry knew about it, but it doesn't matter to us?

I like getting different interpretations, so please feel free to set it straight (nicely though - which you all have) at any time!

I've recently come off a re-read of Order of the Phoenix with Mrs. Black stating in the plural "filthy mudbloods" in the house of her fathers. If Hermione was the only "mudblood" at 12 GP, it made sense to me that she wouldn't use the plural form, indicating that there were more than 1 mudblood in temporary residence there.

Something just occurred to me. A number of traditions hold that it is from the line of the mother which determines the affiliation of the child. (See these sample articles on matrilineal societies here, here, and here). Could the Wizarding World use a similar sort of logic, stemming from ancient practices that recognize that a child can more easily be identified with belonging to its mother, but not always with its father? Could that be why Mrs. Black called out "Mudblood" in Harry's presence, since his mother was Muggleborn, even though his father was from a prominent Wizarding family?

Is he? Or is he simply courting the acceptance of his friends, the excitement of forbidden knowledge, the sheer "coolness" of being a bad boy - i.e. Dark Wizard?

One thing is certain; Snape wasn't afraid of using the Dark Arts. He was fascinated by them and had no moral aversion to them. Lily makes it plain that she is particularly incensed by Mulciber's actions because they were "Dark magic". To Snape, the type of magic was unimportant. To him, James did awful things too, and whether he was using Light or Dark magic was irrelevant.

This should have been a really good distinction to make between Snape and Lily. It nicely echoed the prohibition against the Dark Arts that we got in PS when McGonagall insisted that DD was "above" using some kinds of magic and in GoF when Fake-Moody was discussing the seriousness of using the Unforgiveable Curses.

Unfortunately, this particular moral lesson was torpedoed when we had Harry and even McGonagall tossing around the Unforgiveables at the end of DH. I know the Carrows were a nasty piece of work, but Alecto spat on McGonagall. I just can't see that justifying the Cruciatus Curse. Harry's glib, "So that's what she [Bella] meant by you have to mean them", completed the slide from the moral high ground. Harry certainly didn't feel an iota of remorse for using Dark magic. Given that perspective, it becomes much easier to understand 15-year-old Snape's attitude.

As to prejudice against Muggle-borns, Snape was taught this prejudice at home - something I still find odd given that Eileen married a Muggle, but that's another discussion. In Slytherin, that intial prejudice was reinforced and rewarded. Snape certainly bought into it, but there is no evidence that he was virulently prejudiced in the way that LV or Bellatrix were. Can anyone imagine a 9-year-old Draco seeking out a Muggle-born child and telling her that her parantage didn't matter? Snape knew the truth at that age. He may have forgotten it or chosen to ignore it, but he knew.

Regardless, Snape renounced his prejudice. The fact that he rebukes Phineas for using the word "Mudblood" tells us that. It also tells us that his worst memory was the catalyst for that change. It wouldn't have happened overnight, but by the time he went to DD to beg for Lily's life, I imagine any real interest Snape might have had in pure-blood politics had long since faded to lip service.

And other Order members were coming and going. We do not know the parentage of all Order members.

True. However, that doesn't mean that she can't stick up for people when they are being bullied for no reason, regardless of whether or not the person being bullied was a friend.



Sorry, that wasn't what I meant. What I meant to say was that if Sirius goes so far as to talk about his own relatives - who have no real connection with Harry (at least at the time - Regulus didn't become significant for a couple of years) - then can't we assume that they would have talked about someone who was very important to the both of them? We know for sure that Harry risked expulsion to talk to Sirius about James once; would it not make sense if they had casual conversations about him when they were together?

As for the whole Mudblood debate: Riddle (who mainly attacked Mudbloods) made the Basilisk attack Filch (or rather, his cat), and he's technically a pure-blood (even though he has no powers), which suggests to me that the term "Mudblood" extends to those who are "unworthy" of being connected to the magical world (although I could be wrong).

But it's important to the plot we learn about Regulus, and to a lesser point about Walburga's bigotry that makes her burn certain names off the tapestry.


It would. But it doesn't make sense that, if they had such conversations, they are never ever mentioned, even in passing.

I agree with Oryx and harrypottergeek2 on this one - 1. we don't know the parentage of other Order members, and 2. given Mrs Black's rather extreme views about "blood", anyone who was not of demonstrated Pureblood status would most probably be termed a "Mudblood". Apart from Hermione, we know from one of Jo's interviews that Remus is a halfblood, and as a werewolf he'd be doubly damned in Walburga's eyes. And then there is Tonks - her mother Andromeda is Walburga's pureblood niece, but Ted Tonks is a Muggle-born, and Andromeda was struck of the tapestry for marrying him. So Tonks too would fall within the Mudblood term. The Weasleys are purebloods, but are regarded as 'blood traitors'; we don't know the parentage of the remaining Order members like Kingsley, Mundungus, Emmeline Vance, Hestia Jones, etc.

Alkari

Phineas Nigellus refers to Mundungus as a halfblood.


Lily and Severus were together on the train before their first year, they talked in front of James and Sirius, so it was obvious to them that Lily and Severus knew one another before school. James and Sirius must have known Severus was Lily's 'neighbor' (I can't see her never mentioning this factoid in years). They saw one another at school. Everyone must have known about Snape's vigil in front of the Gryffindor common room. Lily said she defended Snape verbally to her friends for years, that they did not understand why she still talked to him - which means they were aware that Lily and Snape did socialize.

Ok, so I can buy that James and Sirius may have known about Snape and Lily's friendship, even if they just knew that they knew each other, but there's no denying that any connection that they have with Snape is something they consider unpleasant. Not only that, but Lily clearly thought Snape was despicable (hence the reason she dumped him as a friend), and James and Sirius obiviously do as well, so they would never want to mention any friendly ties - however distant - they would have had at one point, so I don't see any real risk of Harry finding about Lily's friendship with Snape during his conversations with Sirius or Lupin (Lupin understands that Harry doesn't like Snape, so he wouldn't be fool enough to mention the friendship either).



IMO, it does make sense, because these sorts of conversations don't reveal anything that advances the plot, and we only see conversations that do. I'm imagining the sort of conversations where Sirius talks about what sort of trouble they got into, what detentions they were sentenced to, and maybe a few details about James' memorable Quidditch games. Obviously, these sorts of details do nothing whatsoever to advance the plot, so Jo doesn't include them.

The Dark Mark on Severus' arm is pretty compelling evidence that he indeed courted the Death Eaters. He was, as Dumbledore said: Indeed a Death Eater. He becomes a Death Eater after the conversation with Lily, and Jo says one of his reasons was to impress Lily.

As to James and Sirius knowing Snape and Lily were friends: I imagine Lily's lofty little "Come on, Severus, let's find another compartment." was a bit of a hint.
There is nothing to show that James, Sirius, and Lily were friends even at fifteen. Lupin might have been, but not James and Sirius, although I'd like to think of Lily as the source of Sirius' contraband. As Lupin was a half-blood it is more likely Sirius learned about the neat Muggle things from Lupin. But if Lily's other friends are asking her how she can stand Severus, I'm certain the boys, especially James who likes Lily have noticed the friendship.

I would imagine Walburga knew who was in her house because Kreacher and her Great-grandfather Nigelus told her of the people's background. I imagine she recognized Arthur and Molly.

Either she loved Tobais, or as the last of her bloodline, but because she was not rich or beautiful like Narcissa or Bella, she could not find a suitable PUreblood mate. And motivation behind racism is not intelligent or logical, but based in fear, ignorance, often misunderstanding. As Obama stated last night on Nightline: the average white person watching the news would not fear that his neighbors would connect the actions of some white criminal with him; not so with minorities in this country. Too often are minorities painted with the same brush as anyone who is the majorities eyes. If a person is Asian, Indian, of African, or European descent or is of a certain faith, or from a certain geographical area, we sometimes make the mistake of treating the person according to an artificial identity. Skin color or language and to a point culture are artificial methods of judging a character. But because people have a tendancy to treat certain people a certain way, or because there are cultural differences we often judge the person by how we respond to a bit of culture. On the other hand we have to learn not be so sensitive. Dislike of a certain kind of music, or preferring straight hair to kinky is not racism. Feeling you have the right insult someone by calling them a "ho" because "you" consider her a member to a certain sub-culture is racism.
Without thinking that the likes of Walburga and Bellatrix would think any child she (Eileen)would have would be polluted by Muggle blood, Eileen might it thought it better to Marry a Muggle than a wizard polluted by Muggle blood. I know it makes no sense, but I actually had someone give similar sentiments to me. I couldn't even get angry because it was so stupid.

blue bold mine

Hmmm...that is what I was originally considering here. If Tonks is technically a Mudblood according to this logic, wouldn't that make Snape a Mudblood as well? Especially since we heard that Ted Tonks was muggle-born magical, yet wasn't he one of those who only performed some magic later in his life? The terms are a little muddled which might be contributing to some of the interchange between usage - much like Black Magic and Dark Magic are similar, but not entirely the same. Just a thought...

Look, Draco never calls Harry a Mudblood (nor Seamus), though he directs this insult at Hermione often enough, so I don't see why Tonks or Snape would be Mudbloods. Even Kreacher makes a point of calling Hermione 'the Mudblood' but not Harry.

Of the known Order members and occupants of 12GP the Weasleys are purebloods, but blood-traitors, as of course was Sirius. Dumbleodre, Lupin, Harry, Mundungus, Snape and Tonks were hallf-bloods. (Of course Lupin is also a part-human, being a werewolf, as is Hagrid, as a half-giant, though he didn't have the chance to visit 12GP). The status of McGonagall is unknown, though between her dress-style and the fact she stayed at Hogwarts during DH she was probably not a Muggle-born. The status of Sturgis Podmore, Elphias Doge, Dedalus Diggle, Moody, Kingsley, Emmeline Vance and Hestia Jones is unknown (though since Diggle tends to appear in robes in Muggle supermarkets I think he is wizarding raised).

True, Oryx, and I'm not looking to dispute canon, but it seemed to me (though I can be wrong here), that Draco used "Mudblood" against Hermione as an insult because although she was Muggle-born, she was the best student in their entire class. Hermione's top marks would be a low blow to anyone who might place "pureblood" and "exceptionally talented wizard" in the same context, and whose self-evaluation was based upon status and not merit.

Draco used 'Mudblood' as an insult against Hermione because that was what she was to him. He also used the term to refer to Muggle-borns in general (as when he wonders why they haven't packed and left yet). Also during the DE rampage at the World Cup, Draco insinuates the crowd would be after Hermione. Even when Harry retorts Draco implies that Hermione alone would be targeted, as a Mudblood. When DiaryTom tells Harry of the change in his plans he says he is no longer interested in attacking Mudbloods but in Harry. As I said, Kreacher, who refers to Hermione as 'the Mudblood' does not do so wrt Harry. There is no place in canon where a half-blood is refered to as a Mudblood. At most, we have Bellatrix talking of Harry's impure lips (sounds bad, sorry).

True, Oryx, but the theme of the thread is Underlying Themes and Dual Interpretation. It is simply amazing at the context words take on in different circles, much like Maime mentioned in a previous post. Hermione was to Draco a living embodiment of a "Mudblood", but why would he care unless her skills were superior to his own, with his status as a "Pureblood"? Using "Mudblood" was a way to cut her down quickly and minimize her in his own eyes, making him feel to himself superior, in that he could affect her in such a way by using the term against her.

As far as I remember, Harry himself had no idea what the big deal about "Mudblood" was until both Hermione and Ron informed him what it meant. If Hermione feigned indifference or was truly ignorant of the term, it would have backfired on Draco, because it would confirm that despite what he was taught to believe, being a "Pureblood" doesn't make one a greater or more talented wizard (or witch). It might have gotten him to question a little sooner the values he was brought up with, contrasted with the true reality which exists behind the fairy tales.

I just wanted to ask is it wrong for there to be Dual interpretations?

Absolutely not! These forums would be pretty boring if we all had the same interpretations. Because of our differences, we get to debate each other and try to bring them around to our own viewpoint, or to be convinced by them that they may have a better idea.

I would venture to say that Draco may have just assumed that Hermione would know what Mudblood meant. And everyone's sudden boisterous reaction to Draco's words shows that Draco had just uttered something extremely insulting. As you point out, Draco believes himself superior to Hermione because he is a pureblood; even if she has more magical skills than he does. Plus, in this particular scene, Hermione had just pointed out to Draco that he had made the Quidditch team not based on merit, but as a consequence of Lucius' generous broomsticks "donation" to the Slytherin team. He was essentially saying look, you're just a Mudblood and you have no right questioning how I made the team; I'm more superior than you are no matter what! I read this as a "how dare you!" allow yourself to even give an opinion.


I don't think it's wrong at all; dual interpretations lend greater depth to understanding and discussing different facets of the HP series. And I also agree with harrydavid's post above. I really enjoy reading everyone's interpretations, views and ideas. This gives me an opportunity to look at things from a different perspective and facilitates my own understanding as well .

Not really. I think he knew she wouldn't know, so he possibly got more pleasure at saying it. Lily would know what Snape meant because times were different and Lily was older. It is possible that Snape himself told Lily about the term and to ignore it. Lily lived in the midst of a crisis that was based in bloodlines. Embolded by Voldemort's doctrines of Pureblood superiority and the fact that he had risen to such power that people feared to say his name, I imagine the wannabe DeathEaters were quick to use that word, or in discussion Voldemort, the term came up.

But who would tell Hermione what "mudblood" meant? Her Muggle parents? Most children learn the street terms or epithet for their ethnic or religious group in the street or at school from children who are taught these things at home. And some parents, especially if they are new to the community or speak a different langauge, are not aware of certain terms or attitudes the society has towards their ethnic group or religion or skin color.

I imagine Ron learned the term from one of his pureblood, but not so tolerant relatives, and I'm pretty certain Snape learned the term from his mother. Just as Hagrid tells Harry "you're not from a Muggle family", Eileen was quick to tell Severus he wasn't a "mudblood" just because of his Muggle father. Something about his hesitation when Lily asked would the fact that she was Muggle-born make any difference gave me the idea that his mother had already discussed this with him. There parents don't seem to know each other. It seems that as they were the only people with magical children in the neighborhood one of them might have reached out to the other...but there is nothing to suggest that Snape and Lily's parents had any thing to do with each other.


I wholly agree. Dual interpretations is really not accurate. There are and will continual to be multiple interpretations of the novels as our experiences with the many themes in the books are as varied as we, the readers are.

How could he be sure? True, I don't expect Hermione's parents to have told her. I also don't see how Hermione not knowing what it meant brought greater satisfaction to Draco. I think he would have in fact been surprised to hear that she didn't know it's meaning. Draco is arrogant enough to believe that this wasn't the first time; that there were other students who called her Mudblood as well.

*Just a sec to give a big wave to Shard * Welcome back!!!

In different contexts, the word dual can mean multiple - lending a dual interpretation to the meaning of dual itself! LOL The very nature of being dual is that is isn't precise to one, alone.

harrydavid, I'm getting the feeling that you are getting very "punny" in your dueling response:
(my own sense of humor thanks you...I love a good pun! )

As for Hermione knowing what Mudblood meant...it seemed to me that she must have read up on it before she ever stepped foot into Hogwarts. On another thread (or essay, I'll have to look it up) there was a discussion of the Seven Deadly Sins in relation to the different characters and the Potter series. In a way, I see in Hermione being the "know it all" that she is suffering from the sin of "Pride", and that since she knew what Mudblood meant, it held some sort of power over her in damaging her when it was used against her. If she had no idea about its implied context, it would not have affected her - yet it was her pride that gave Draco that kind of power over her, to affect her own self-esteem. Thoughts?

When Harry explains to Hagrid what happened to make make Ron curse Draco, Hagrid is infuriated but Hermione answers:

Insert and Emphasis mine. Page 115 COS

Hermione's ignorance of a racial epithet would have nothing to do with "her" pride. Unless she's reading a book of insults and epithets there is no reason for her reading to lead to this term. And in the book they dismiss this subject to discuss Lockhart's incompetence, Ginny's visit to Hagrid's shack and Mcgonagall showed up to give them detention. Hermione wasn't crying or upset although Hagrids comments about her skills made her blush.

Draco using the word speaks of "his pride"--his pride in his mere existance is based on his belief that as a Mudblood she has no right to exist and certainly no place at Hogwarts.


I understand what you mean. However, Hermione didn't know what the word meant. Draco wasn't trying to insult her in the traditional fashion. He was attempting to put her in her place. It's not like calling her a "b" word. He means what he says: she doesn't dare address him or enter the conversation for the same reason servants don't speak up when their masters are discussing matters, no matter how strongly they feel. She's a mudblood. She has no place in the affairs and conversations of her betters: wizards.

A racial epithet of this kind has a little different concept that making the person feel bad. It is designed to make the person feel inferior to others, even to a lowly house elf. Her fuzzy hair, her crooked teeth and braces are all--to Draco's mind, proof that she is not favored by nature, therefore magic. Now is she was fully magical, her long fuzzy hair might be seen as that of pre-raphealite beauty.

As Hermione is always speaking out of turn, Draco feels that teachers, with the exception of Severus Snape, were indulging her by letting her speak up in class, deluding her as to her talents, of deluding her that she was equal to wizards who had at least one magical parent. Her outburst in class were nothing but memorizing -- magic by rote--which Snape intimates in HBP.

Look at how Snapes peaks to Hermioneas opposed to how he talks to Harry and Ron in class. When Hermione speaks out of turn he does not put her in detention but takes points from Gryffindor. The inference of such behavior to someone like Draco is that because these purebloods and Halfbloods don't keep their "mudbloods" in line, they lose prestige and house points.

Note that Draco first addresses Ron as to Hermione's safety: You wouldn't like her spotted, would you?" Page 121 GOF

For Snape, Harry is "arrogant" like his father in his trust of Black, but he tells Hermione to "hold your tongue" and told "KEEP QUIET, YOU STUPID GIRL! and DON'T TALK ABOUT WHAT YOU DONT UNDERSTAND! Page 360

It sounds more like Snape is telling Hermione to know her place.

thanks Momwitch!

I'm glad were talking about the Mudblood word and it's meaning. I've always felt that alot of people didn't give enough wieght to what this meant and could lead to. I think we see that in DH, I have always felt that mudblood was as bad as any of our real world racial slurs.

I think the parallel of Draco or Snape using that word is just like a white racist using the N-word against a black person. It's all to demean the person to make them less then human and thus justified in their hatred of that person.

I think Hermione is smart enough to get the idea of what Draco was saying when he called her that. I also think Lily is justified in her breaking ties with Snape over the word as well. He shows a complete lack of respect for her feelings and opinion when he does that.

Also on the whole James and Lily sacrfice I do think the choice Voldemort gives is important and critical. It doesn't make James any less noble but it is the oppertunity given to Lily to stand aside and live that makes all the difference. I also believe the spell has significance as well. Had Voldemort used another spell things may have been different as this spell seems to directly affect the soul and not the body.