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"mudblood" And Jkr's Other Swear Words, Significance in the Potterverse and Reality

Irene Adler View Member Profile	Apr 27 2006, 10:36 AM Post #1
Knockturn Alley Fingernail Vendor Posts: 767 Joined: 5:49pm January 28, 2005 Location: A photograph at 221B Baker Street	This comment by hpaddict in the Obscurus Questions thread regarding use of the word "mudblood" in posts started me thinking... QUOTE(hpaddict @ Apr 19 2006, 09:24 PM) [snapback]792703[/snapback] The staff has discussed this topic and it all comes down to context. While offensive in the context of the Harry Potter world, if someone refers to a character as a mudblood instead of muggle born, the a post will not be disturbed. However, if someone refers to another poster as a mudblood, that is a flame and violates rule #1 here at Leaky. What hpaddict is saying here is that, even though "mudblood" is a word that was created by JKR specifically for her books, it's now considered by Leaky's mods to be a generic derogatory term in the Real World. When I went back and re-read Rule #1, there was no specific mention that JKR-created words were also considered "offensive words" in posts. Nonetheless, that's how "mudblood" is perceived. I thought it might be interesting to examine the types of words that JKR uses in her books for "swear" words or derogatory terms. We could explore how they are used in the books for effect, the types of persons that use them and how that translates into our own lives. I'm not just talking about "mudblood". I was quite surprised when JKR had Harry use the word "damn" in OOTP. Not that I'm a prude, but it didn't strike me that she would use Muggle swear words. There are also other words that JKR uses for "derogatory" words in the Potterverse, even though they are ordinary words - "giant" comes to mind. We could also look at how different English-speaking areas of the world view these terms, and also get some insights from persons whose first language is not English. For example, did the translation of "mudblood" (into French, Spanish, German, etc.) have the same "shock" effect as it did in English? What about "damn"? Note: although the mods have okayed this topic for a thread, please abide by Leaky's rules - including hpaddict's comment on mudblood - when posting. These rules are based on common courtesy and the fact that this site is accessible to readers of all ages -------------------- "She has the face of the most beautiful of women, and the mind of the most resolute of men." (Sir Arthur Conan Doyle: Sherlock Holmes - A Scandal in Bohemia)

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hpaddict View Member Profile	Apr 27 2006, 09:10 PM Post #2
Diagon Alley Magical Bricklayer Posts: 2,876 Joined: 8:17pm June 28, 2005 Location: waiting on summer	Just to add a bit more context - a bit ago - as a staff we discussed words that would/would not be allowed in the word filter. Mudblood was clearly meant by JKR as more than an insult - perhaps even tantamount to the N-word. It is in the canon and necessary for it to remain. However, we did discuss that it could be abused in context. Not that any of us had ever seen a member use it in an insulting fashion towards another member - but we had seen it used in an insulting fashion towards characters. Although I hate to sound "politically correct" we did notice that some used mudblood and others used the term muggle born and it often reflected the posters like or dislike of a character. Anyhow - hopefully this provides a bit more context for the discussion and maybe even a bit of insight of just how far the staff does drill down about things around here! -------------------- " It's not just the books under fire now that worry me. It is the books that will never be written. The books that will never be read. And all due to the fear of censorship. As always, young readers will be the real losers." J. Blume

DorisTLC View Member Profile	Apr 27 2006, 10:30 PM Post #3
Waiting for Wednesdays Posts: 9,229 Joined: 7:57am January 28, 2005 Location: Hiding from Hurricanes	QUOTE(Irene Adler @ Apr 27 2006, 09:36 AM) [snapback]803382[/snapback] This comment by hpaddict in the Obscurus Questions thread regarding use of the word "mudblood" in posts started me thinking... QUOTE(hpaddict @ Apr 19 2006, 09:24 PM) [snapback]792703[/snapback] The staff has discussed this topic and it all comes down to context. While offensive in the context of the Harry Potter world, if someone refers to a character as a mudblood instead of muggle born, the a post will not be disturbed. However, if someone refers to another poster as a mudblood, that is a flame and violates rule #1 here at Leaky. What hpaddict is saying here is that, even though "mudblood" is a word that was created by JKR specifically for her books, it's now considered by Leaky's mods to be a generic derogatory term in the Real World. When I went back and re-read Rule #1, there was no specific mention that JKR-created words were also considered "offensive words" in posts. Nonetheless, that's how "mudblood" is perceived. I thought it might be interesting to examine the types of words that JKR uses in her books for "swear" words or derogatory terms. We could explore how they are used in the books for effect, the types of persons that use them and how that translates into our own lives. I'm not just talking about "mudblood". I was quite surprised when JKR had Harry use the word "damn" in OOTP. Not that I'm a prude, but it didn't strike me that she would use Muggle swear words. Great Topic - and thanks for posting the warning! This is a hard thing to discuss. First let's look at the term mudblood. Literally - dirty blood. Blood is the "elixir of life" (to use another HP phrase) If you look at a vile of blood in a doctor's office, it knows no race or religion. It's just blood. While there are type and Rh differences, once under the skin it proves we're really all the same. Dirty - this word is filled with negative connotations. Unclean, foul, unholy, overtly-sexual - this word brings on the feeling that this blood is less than what is should be. The connotation would, wrongly, also carry over to the individual and the group targeted. Let me just say that in my opinion this type of prejudice is meant to strike at the core of the group targeted - to make them feel they are less than others because of their heritage or ethnicity or parenting. Anyform of abuse is inexcusable, but the belief that any one group is less than (or dirty) has always been something that goes against all of civilized society. If you look at the other words (none of which I'll mention) society has used to label people as "dirty" over the centuries, all of these words started as something else. They were innocent words used in the culture the offended group came from. These words all have negative conotations and are often edited out of literature and text books for that reason. Doris -------------------- My Avon Breast Cancer Walk Page and Blog! I'm In It to End It!

WaggaWaggaWerewo... WaggaWaggaWerewolf View Member Profile	Apr 28 2006, 04:38 AM Post #4
Madame Pince's House Elf Posts: 4,712 Joined: 5:46pm January 28, 2005 Location: In HP Book Club 5, awaiting Deathly Hallow's release.	QUOTE(DorisTLC @ Apr 28 2006, 07:30 PM) [snapback]804226[/snapback] QUOTE(Irene Adler @ Apr 27 2006, 09:36 AM) [snapback]803382[/snapback] This comment by hpaddict in the Obscurus Questions thread regarding use of the word "mudblood" in posts started me thinking... QUOTE(hpaddict @ Apr 19 2006, 09:24 PM) [snapback]792703[/snapback] The staff has discussed this topic and it all comes down to context. While offensive in the context of the Harry Potter world, if someone refers to a character as a mudblood instead of muggle born, the a post will not be disturbed. However, if someone refers to another poster as a mudblood, that is a flame and violates rule #1 here at Leaky. What hpaddict is saying here is that, even though "mudblood" is a word that was created by JKR specifically for her books, it's now considered by Leaky's mods to be a generic derogatory term in the Real World. When I went back and re-read Rule #1, there was no specific mention that JKR-created words were also considered "offensive words" in posts. Nonetheless, that's how "mudblood" is perceived. I thought it might be interesting to examine the types of words that JKR uses in her books for "swear" words or derogatory terms. We could explore how they are used in the books for effect, the types of persons that use them and how that translates into our own lives. I'm not just talking about "mudblood". I was quite surprised when JKR had Harry use the word "damn" in OOTP. Not that I'm a prude, but it didn't strike me that she would use Muggle swear words. Great Topic - and thanks for posting the warning! This is a hard thing to discuss. First let's look at the term mudblood. Literally - dirty blood. Blood is the "elixir of life" (to use another HP phrase) If you look at a vile of blood in a doctor's office, it knows no race or religion. It's just blood. While there are type and Rh differences, once under the skin it proves we're really all the same. Dirty - this word is filled with negative connotations. Unclean, foul, unholy, overtly-sexual - this word brings on the feeling that this blood is less than what is should be. The connotation would, wrongly, also carry over to the individual and the group targeted. Let me just say that in my opinion this type of prejudice is meant to strike at the core of the group targeted - to make them feel they are less than others because of their heritage or ethnicity or parenting. Anyform of abuse is inexcusable, but the belief that any one group is less than (or dirty) has always been something that goes against all of civilized society. If you look at the other words (none of which I'll mention) society has used to label people as "dirty" over the centuries, all of these words started as something else. They were innocent words used in the culture the offended group came from. These words all have negative conotations and are often edited out of literature and text books for that reason. Doris I hope you don't mind my having my 2 cents' worth. In HBP we really come to grips with the term "blood traitor" to describe Ginny and her family. We also come to grips with other terms of abuse, such as Marvolo's description of Merope as 'dirty Squib' (p. 195, HBP). And we see just how abusive the Gaunts were as a family when Morfin describes his sister, Merope, as a '-l--' (p.342, Brit ed HBP). This expression is one of a whole range of those which the abusive use to describe women who do not meet with their often unrealistic expectations. Occasionally there are other related expressions, such as the term 'b------' which in Aussie terminology may be no more than a term of affection, such as ' You lucky b------, how did you manage that one?' or 'You poor b------, how did you get into that mess?' But that particular term can also be one of abuse to the rest of the world, such as in US and UK which share the same language if not the accompanying connotations. And it also has a legitimate place in the world to describe a class of people, such as the information that William Peverell was the b------ son of William 1 of England, himself commonly called William the b------. How do you as moderators deal with such distinctions? Do you damn the 'b' word regardless, not to mention the 's' word, or do you try to put such terms into their context? -------------------- Check out Book Number 5 POA edition.

DorisTLC View Member Profile	Apr 28 2006, 06:52 AM Post #5
Waiting for Wednesdays Posts: 9,229 Joined: 7:57am January 28, 2005 Location: Hiding from Hurricanes	QUOTE(WaggaWaggaWerewolf @ Apr 28 2006, 03:38 AM) [snapback]804387[/snapback] How do you as moderators deal with such distinctions? Do you damn the 'b' word regardless, not to mention the 's' word, or do you try to put such terms into their context? First to answer your question... The way we deal with this is we look at our guidelines as staff. We are a multi-national forum, and our staff members represent many different cultures and backgrounds. We try to be as aware as possible of the implications of allowing some words to be filtered (as yours were above) and it's effect on the freedom of speech of our members. A lot of what you see filtered is a decision that the entire group of forum mods and admin have worked on together. We understand that a word that maybe horribly offensive to one person may not be to others. We do look at the context of the discussion. One thing I have often found is that you don't always have to say the word to get the point across. If the word is a flame, it's removed, if it's a word that is highly offensive to a group of people it's removed also. We air on the side of conservatism in that regard. As I said above, many times the word doesn't need to be used in the discussion. If it's offensive - it's removed. Now - back to the discussion QUOTE(WaggaWaggaWerewolf @ Apr 28 2006, 03:38 AM) [snapback]804387[/snapback] n HBP we really come to grips with the term "blood traitor" to describe Ginny and her family. We also come to grips with other terms of abuse, such as Marvolo's description of Merope as 'dirty Squib' (p. 195, HBP). And we see just how abusive the Gaunts were as a family when Morfin describes his sister, Merope, as a '-l--' (p.342, Brit ed HBP) I found the term "blood traitor" interesting in HBP. Traitor - that is a powerful word in and of itself. A traitor is QUOTE One who betrays one's country, a cause, or a trust, especially one who commits treason. (from thefreedictionary.com) That is such a powerful word to place on someone. Think of the famous traitors of history and literature. People like, Guy Fawkes (UK), John Wilkes Booth (US), or Judas (from The Bible). The implication of calling someone a "blood traitor" is horrific. In the US there is a little nursery rhyme repeated by small children... "Sticks and Stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me" I think it's obvious that some words can hurt. This is what Jo is pointing out. There are some people who control using brute strength. Here we see someone using language, and it's powerful effect on an indiviual's self-concept, as a tool to control. Doris -------------------- My Avon Breast Cancer Walk Page and Blog! I'm In It to End It!

Irene Adler View Member Profile	Apr 28 2006, 09:46 AM Post #6
Knockturn Alley Fingernail Vendor Posts: 767 Joined: 5:49pm January 28, 2005 Location: A photograph at 221B Baker Street	QUOTE(WaggaWaggaWerewolf @ Apr 28 2006, 09:38 AM) [snapback]804387[/snapback] ... In HBP we really come to grips with the term "blood traitor" to describe Ginny and her family. We also come to grips with other terms of abuse, such as Marvolo's description of Merope as 'dirty Squib' (p. 195, HBP). And we see just how abusive the Gaunts were as a family when Morfin describes his sister, Merope, as a '-l--' (p.342, Brit ed HBP). This expression is one of a whole range of those which the abusive use to describe women who do not meet with their often unrealistic expectations... Wagga, do we EVER come to grips with these terms? I have to admit that when I read the passages about the Gaunts and their treatment of Merope, I was squirming! JKR didn't pull any punches when she wrote that. I'm sure she was using Merope as an allegorical character for battered or abused women. Mental abuse can be even more debilitating than physical abuse, because it attacks who you are as a person. The reader completely understands Merope's motivation when she runs away and uses a love potion on Tom Riddle. "Squib" is an interesting term, though. It's not actually a derogatory term like mudblood, but I do get somewhat derogatory connotations from it, in JKR's usage. It's almost as if Wizards don't like Squibs, but have to accept them as a fact of life. Even the word itself "Squib" sounds - well - derogatory. -------------------- "She has the face of the most beautiful of women, and the mind of the most resolute of men." (Sir Arthur Conan Doyle: Sherlock Holmes - A Scandal in Bohemia)

coach View Member Profile	Apr 28 2006, 11:15 AM Post #7
WhizzHard Books Copy Editor Posts: 2,152 Joined: 12:18pm July 22, 2005 Location: Reading KSK, Deadspin, TheBigLead, and the Fanhouse.	QUOTE(DorisTLC @ Apr 28 2006, 07:52 AM) [snapback]804448[/snapback] I found the term "blood traitor" interesting in HBP. Traitor - that is a powerful word in and of itself. A traitor is QUOTE One who betrays one's country, a cause, or a trust, especially one who commits treason. (from thefreedictionary.com) That is such a powerful word to place on someone. Think of the famous traitors of history and literature. People like, Guy Fawkes (UK), John Wilkes Booth (US), or Judas (from The Bible). The implication of calling someone a "blood traitor" is horrific. [/color] The implication of a term like that is that they are a traitor to their species. People like those mentioned, and others, were traitors by choice, and only from a certain POV. John Wilkes Booth did not consider himself a traitor, he believed so strongly that the freedom of the nation was at stake that he was willing to kill Abraham Lincoln in an effort to stop the direction of the nation. I don't point that out to argue 19th century American history, but rather to show the distinction between the implication of the word, as Doris pointed out. One can not choose to be a blood traitor. It also is not a matter of choosing to be on the other side of an issue. The implication is that an individual or group that is labeled that way is not part of the same species as someone who is "pure." That they are not, in fact, human. That is what is horrific, the dehumanization.

Silmaril View Member Profile	Apr 28 2006, 11:22 AM Post #8
Disgruntled House-Elf at The Leaky Cauldron Posts: 436 Joined: 11:42am July 2, 2005 Location: Room 1408	QUOTE(Irene Adler @ Apr 27 2006, 03:36 PM) [snapback]803382[/snapback] We could also look at how different English-speaking areas of the world view these terms, and also get some insights from persons whose first language is not English. For example, did the translation of "mudblood" (into French, Spanish, German, etc.) have the same "shock" effect as it did in English? What about "damn"? Nop, it doesn´t ahve any shock, maybe only in those countries that has such a high level of race anger, or racism. At least here anybody is offended because he/she is half casted, or Negro (a normal spanish word used for everything as the name of the black color it is, anything to do with race), or Mulato, anything No such a racism. Mudblood is not an offense here, but it is in racist societies if you are half casted person, or a foreign person. Yes, there it is a offence. But not in our country At least I can answer in this point -------------------- Michael Jackson: Long Live the King!! ***************** You scared me half to death...**

coach View Member Profile	Apr 28 2006, 11:53 AM Post #9
WhizzHard Books Copy Editor Posts: 2,152 Joined: 12:18pm July 22, 2005 Location: Reading KSK, Deadspin, TheBigLead, and the Fanhouse.	QUOTE(Silmaril @ Apr 28 2006, 12:22 PM) [snapback]804602[/snapback] QUOTE(Irene Adler @ Apr 27 2006, 03:36 PM) [snapback]803382[/snapback] We could also look at how different English-speaking areas of the world view these terms, and also get some insights from persons whose first language is not English. For example, did the translation of "mudblood" (into French, Spanish, German, etc.) have the same "shock" effect as it did in English? What about "damn"? Nop, it doesn´t ahve any shock, maybe only in those countries that has such a high level of race anger, or racism. At least here anybody is offended because he/she is half casted, or Negro (a normal spanish word used for everything as the name of the black color it is, anything to do with race), or Mulato, anything No such a racism. Mudblood is not an offense here, but it is in racist societies if you are half casted person, or a foreign person. Yes, there it is a offence. But not in our country At least I can answer in this point I think that is a good point. I don't know about in the UK or other European countries, but in the US the idea of race has an almost unique meaning. Please, correct me if you think I'm wrong, but in many parts of the world conflicts between groups are often based on geography or culture. In the US, divisions are made, first based upon indentifying physical characteristics, then on things like culture. That is a fine line, but significant. It speaks to why a word like mudblood may have a more severe conotation here, than in the rest of the world.

montims View Member Profile	Apr 28 2006, 01:52 PM Post #10
Stocking Snitches at Quality Quidditch Supplies Posts: 669 Joined: 12:52pm July 25, 2005 Location: Has been England, Italy and Iowa, USA - now Minnesota - tomorrow?	Also, back to the -l-- word - Americans seem to get terribly offended by it, Brits less so - I just thought it was an insulting thing to say, there were no sexual connotations at all - any dirtiness relates to dust rather than porn, if that makes sense... How was -l-- translated into other languages? I would imagine "troia" in Italian, but is that correct? And yes, how are muggle and mudblood translated? --------------------

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