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Posted by: George Weasley's Girlfriend Feb 1 2008, 07:13 PM

Upon reading HBP again, something struck me. If it's already been discussed forgive me. Slughorn says Lily was really good at potions and we know that Snape was really good too. In the HP series we see that Gryffindor and Slytherin have potions classes together. I was wondering if maybe Harry wasn't the only Potter to benefit form the HBP's potions notes and maybe that's how Lily got so good, or was it the other way around? Were those notes made in Snapes old potions book his ideas, or were those Lily's and he wrote the notes in the margins? I myself wonder who really taught who or if they were both just good at potions. Any ideas anyone?

Posted by: death_eater Feb 1 2008, 07:16 PM

I'd say they were both good at it....becuase Snape had a facination not only in the Dark Arts but in potions as well....so it could possibly be that Lily copied him but i doubt she would...but they were friends maybe she did for a while but they didnt stay friends for long so she would have to have her own skills at it...

Posted by: roonwit Feb 1 2008, 07:21 PM

Actually, that isn't true. We know that Harry's year does, but there is no reason to think other years do. Indeed it is likely to vary from year to year as for example the Gryffindors have Herbology with the Hufflepuffs in Harry's year, but in Ginny's year they are with the Ravenclaws.

Posted by: Laura W Feb 1 2008, 07:33 PM

"I was wondering if maybe Harry wasn't the only Potter to benefit form the HBP's potions notes and maybe that's how Lily got so good, or was it the other way around? Were those notes made in Snapes old potions book his ideas, or were those Lily's and he wrote the notes in the margins?" - George Weasley's Girlfriend



There's another point. Even if Gryffindors and Slytherins took Potions together in Sev and Lily's day - and we don't know that they did -, the Potions book belonging to the Half Blood Prince was sixth year. As we're told in DH, at the end of their fifth year during OWL exams, Lily Evans broke off her friendship with Snape. I siriusly doubt if she would be partners with him in sixth year Potions - even if she had been for their first five.

Sorry.


Laura

Posted by: George Weasley's Girlfriend Feb 1 2008, 09:15 PM

But I just find it interesting that we have a Muggle-born witch and a half blood wizard who were once friends and are both apparently incredibly good at the same subject. I just wonder if Lily got her talents from being friends with someone who was very talented at potions themselves. Even if they were no longer friends by the end of their O.W.L. year that still leaves 5 years of potions. They may have not been in the same potions class together, but I have not read anywhere that they weren't either. We see one of Snapes books, who's to say he didn't do the same things to his other books as well. I just find it very interesting that, given their background, that they were both so remarkable at potions. Seems like quite a bit of coincidence if you ask me. If Snape tutored Lily that may explain quite a bit.

Posted by: harrydavid Feb 2 2008, 12:13 AM

Why do you assume he was better than her? It could just as easily been the other way around. Don't leave out the possibility that Lily tutored Snape in Potions. Or they might just have been both good at it, independently.

Posted by: rowena r Feb 2 2008, 08:38 AM

Both, Lily and Snape could have had an aptitude for potions. They could have helped each other out with ideas if the Gryffindors and Slytherins had had their classes together. Like Dumbledore and Grindelwald, I feel, they would have been equals in their class.

Slughorn is good at recognising talent if at nothing else, and he was of the opinion Lily was really good. I'm inclined to believe him on that. She must have been a natural for Slughorn to go on about her like he did. And we know for certain that Snape was indeed very good at potions too. He whipped up the wolfsbane potion for Remus and made a golden potion for Dumbledore when he came back half dead from the Gaunt shack.

Posted by: Snapehalfbloodprince Feb 2 2008, 03:23 PM

I say that Snape wrote the notes and put some of Lily's tips in it too. But Lily didn't know about the Half-Blood prince part or the sectumsempra part.

Posted by: lady_fibsworth Feb 2 2008, 04:49 PM

That's an interesting idea. However, it does not necessarily mean that the Gryffindors and Slytherins ever had potions together when Snape and Lilly were at Hogwarts. And I just can't imagine Lilly ever copying. So perhaps she could have accepted a bit of help, but not too much. I don't think that Snape would have copied from her, either. I'd think that they could have helped each other, but in small ways, rather than copying or having extended help.

Posted by: Hatun punchaw Feb 2 2008, 08:56 PM

Gellert went to Dürmstrang, he was no partner with Albus.

I think Severus was very good a potions, but he let Lily take the spot.

Posted by: voldemort07 Feb 4 2008, 07:06 PM

Although I think Lily was probably a gifted witch I have thought about this point too and I think that it is probably true to some extent that Lily's potions talent came from Snape, I'm not saying that she wasn't good but Slughorn makes her out to be quite spectacular and we know that Snape was really gifted so I think that she probably got quite a bit of help from him, and it isn't clear that Lily even took potions after her OWLS so them not being friends anymore might not have mattered at that point. It's not like Slughorn hasn't been fooled before, he thought Harry was great at potions when he was getting help from the book, even though Harry really had no talent for potions.

Posted by: DigificWriter Feb 4 2008, 07:52 PM

Even though we do not know for sure that the Slytherins and Gryffindors had Potions together during the Marauders' years at Hogwarts, there is no canonical reason to believe that this was NOT the case, either, and, unless we get more information, it makes the most amount of sense. Even if they did not have Potions together, I wholeheartedly believe that Lily had some involvement in the creation of Snape's 'Half Blood Prince Journal' (and yes, it is very much a journal), and this is only bolstered by the fact that she and Snape were best friends during their childhood and their early teenage years. Just because the book used to create the journal was the textbook used by N.E.W.T. level Potions students does not preclude Snape from having it prior to taking that class. In fact, given what we know about his home life, it is very likely that said book belonged to his mother. This would've allowed him to begin jotting down the potions and spells that were written in the 'journal' as early as his first year at Hogwarts, or possibly even earlier. We also know that at least one of the spells which were jotted down in the 'journal' - Levicorpus - had apparently been found out and was being used around the school by the summer (June) of Snape's 5th year (1975) since it is the only spell we know of that suspends a person upside down, which is the position Snape found himself in during the incident that later came to constitute his worst memory.

Posted by: Laura W Feb 4 2008, 09:19 PM

I don't think Lily would have had anything to do with a book that had such a dark spell as Septumsempra in it. Or with a wizard out of whose brain that was developed, had she known he thought it up. I do not believe she knew anything about the book. As smart as Lily was, I believe it was Snape and Snape alone who made up those spells and potions which were hand-written in the sixth year Potions book. Also, in HBP, Snape took full credit for the spells in the book when he said to Harry, "How dare you use my own spells against me!" or such.

I am sure both Lily Evans and Severus Snape were excellent at Potions while at school - quite independent of each other -, and perhaps they helped each other somewhat during their first five years (eg - did their homework together sometimes, as Ron, Hermoine and Harry did); but I think the additions to the NEWT-level Potions textbook were the brilliant inventions of the Half Blood Prince alone.

Laura

Posted by: Oryx Feb 4 2008, 09:58 PM

But the spells Snape wrote in it were used by him and others in his fifth year. He had the book ahead of time - maybe as a hand-me-down from his mother. He must have at least read the NEWT-level Potions book before it was time for him to use it in class.

The spells were his. The question is whether Lily had anything to do with the Potions work. Did she come over to Snape's home to do more advanced Potions work during the summers?

Posted by: Ela Feb 4 2008, 10:26 PM

I am pretty sure that Lily was not that gifted in potions but Snape was helping her. It was not copying or anything illegal. Everybody could use the book during classes. The directions for making potions were only a little bit “improved”. It is the same as Hermione was reading all the school books during summer holidays and was prepared later during school year. Practice makes perfect. Snape loved Lily so much that he did everything to make her happy.

Posted by: Laura W Feb 4 2008, 11:36 PM

QUOTE From Laura W -"There's another point. Even if Gryffindors and Slytherins took Potions together in Sev and Lily's day - and we don't know that they did -, the Potions book belonging to the Half Blood Prince was sixth year. As we're told in DH, at the end of their fifth year during OWL exams, Lily Evans broke off her friendship with Snape. I siriusly doubt if she would be partners with him in sixth year Potions - even if she had been for their first five."


"But the spells Snape wrote in it were used by him and others in his fifth year. He had the book ahead of time - maybe as a hand-me-down from his mother. He must have at least read the NEWT-level Potions book before it was time for him to use it in class." - Oryx



Here's how I see that coming down. ...

While in his fifth year, the 15-or-16-year-old Severus Snape - magically advanced for his age and year -, invented and perfected the Levicorpus jinx. He did it on his own, without Lily Evans nor anyone else being involved. He started to use it around school (on James Potter and Sirius Black and probably others). Other students thought it was a neat spell and it became, as Lupin tells Harry in OoP, quite in vogue for a while.

Then Severus enters his sixth year and gets a sixth-level Potions book. Whether it was already in his house, handed down from his mother, or newly bought at Flourish and Blotts is irrelevant.

Becoming even more proficient in Potions and DADA, Snape realizes that his own made up spells and potions are superior to those in the book. So, he decides to use the Potions textbook as a sort of journal of his own inventions. He does not tell anybody (including Lily who, by this time, is not talking to him) about this. The book is his own personal private record of his brilliance as the Half Blood Prince.

As he had invented a relatively minor, but still his own invention, spell the year before - that is, Levicorpus in fifth year -, he lays claim to it by writing it down in the sixth-year Potions textbook when the idea comes to him in sixth year to write all his inventions down in the book. I would say that would not happen till the school year started (Sept. 1976) and he began to realize how he could "improve" on the proscribed method of making the potions contained in the text.


Laura

Posted by: roonwit Feb 5 2008, 04:58 AM

That doesn't work, because the levicorpus spell had a lot of crossings out. Had Snape just been recording the spell the would just have written out the final version. The way I see it Snape had a big interest in potions, as shown by the fact that he even opened a 6th year text book before the 6th year (though actually we don't know if it was only a 6th year text book in Snape and Lily's time, maybe Slughorn uses it in the 5th year as well - Snape doesn't really teach from a text book). It doesn't particularly matter if Lily and Snape were taught together before the 6th year, as I think they would work together in the library a fair amount anyway, and regardless of who was first interested, an interest from one of them in a subject could spark off the interest in the other. In the end however, I think both had a talent for potions, as shown by Slughorn's praise of Lily and Snape's ability to teach the subject, and they might still have worked together in the NEWT years even if they weren't friends, and even if they didn't I can see Snape keeping an eye on what Lily was doing and taking notes of anything she did that seemed like a good idea.

Posted by: Oryx Feb 5 2008, 12:10 PM

I agree Lily had talent for Potions that did not depend on Snape's support, because Slughorn did not notice a decline in her performance in the later years. As for the book - Umbridge comments that the curriculum Snape teaches is advanced relative to Ministry guidelines so I doubt a book that starts from material Snape did not cover by 5th year would have been used in earlier years in Slughorn's days.

Posted by: DigificWriter Feb 5 2008, 02:08 PM

Given the depth of Lily and Snape's friendship, the proximity of their homes, and Hermione's observation that some of the notes in the Half Blood Prince's 'journal' looked like they were written by a girl - which I highly doubt was put in the text by accident - the evidence for Lily having at least something to do with the 'journal' and its content is greater than the evidence against her having had something to do with it and its content.

While everything we know about her does indicate that she would've been apalled by the creation of the Septumsempra spell, we don't know exactly when Snape invented that spell, or wrote it down in the book. He seems to have used it on James during their confrontation at the lake in June of 1975, but, if he did, he cast it non-verbally, and therefore could've written it down - and given it a name - after his and Lily's friendship crumbled.

With regards to Umbridge's comment about Snape's teaching being 'advanced' relative to Ministry guidelines only enhances his past as the Half Blood Prince, and doesn't really have any bearing on when Snape created said persona as a young man, or if Lily had anything to do with the HBP's 'journal'.

Posted by: Laura W Feb 5 2008, 03:45 PM

QUOTE(Laura W @ Feb 5 2008, 04:36 AM) http://www.leakylounge.com/findpost-p1534968.html
As he had invented a relatively minor, but still his own invention, spell the year before - that is, Levicorpus in fifth year -, he lays claim to it by writing it down in the sixth-year Potions textbook when the idea comes to him in sixth year to write all his inventions down in the book. I would say that would not happen till the school year started (Sept. 1976) and he began to realize how he could "improve" on the proscribed method of making the potions contained in the text.

That doesn't work, because the levicorpus spell had a lot of crossings out. Had Snape just been recording the spell the would just have written out the final version. - roonwit

Yep, you're right about that. So ... either Snape had the book in his fifth year, which means it would have been his mother's and he had it at school with him during his fifth year (creating new spells and writing them in his sixth year book while actually taking fifth-year Potions), or Jo made a mistake.



" and they might still have worked together in the NEWT years even if they weren't friends" - roonwit

On this I couldn't disagree with you more. The finality of Lily's ending of their friendship during the conversation outside the Gryffindor quarters on that night of their DADA OWLs - as we heard it in the Prince's Tale - is absolute to me. I think, from that moment on, Lily not only did not only do any schoolwork with Severus, but did not speak to him or acknowledge him again . That's how I see it.



"While everything we know about her does indicate that she would've been apalled by the creation of the Septumsempra spell, we don't know exactly when Snape invented that spell, or wrote it down in the book. He seems to have used it on James during their confrontation at the lake in June of 1975, but, if he did, he cast it non-verbally, and therefore could've written it down - and given it a name - after his and Lily's friendship crumbled." - DigificWriter

Blast! You are right. Here we go again. Snape not only invented/used Levicorpus by the end of his fifth year (June 1976 actually (grin)), and it was written in his sixth year Potions book, but he invented/used Sectumsempra - or a version of it - by the end of his fifth year, and it was written in his sixth year Potions book.

Well. that does it. My only explanation can be that the copy of Advanced Potion-Making by Libkatius Borage which Hogwarts students use in their sixth year was in Snape's house during the summer between his fourth and fifth years. Very possibly it belonged to his mother. And, when Severus went off to school for his fifth year, he took the book with him - although I don't know why he would.

While he and his whole year was taking fifth year Potions, he was also reading the sixth-year textbook (being as advanced as Severus was) which he used as a journal for The Half Blood Prince. And, as he invented new spells (ie - Levicorpus, Sectumsempra, Muffliato, and probably several more) and new better Potions throughout his fifth year, he recorded them in the book. The book which he would not actually be using as a textbook until the next year.


Laura

Posted by: sver/nor Feb 5 2008, 04:21 PM

Whose to say that the handwriting in Snape's potions book, that Hermione said looked like a girl's, was not Snape's mother, Eileen Prince's. We know that this is her book, she might have been equally gifted in potions, and they were poor, so it stands to reason they would save money on what they could.

Snape wasn't in the same House as Lily, so it wouldn't be as easy to do their homework together as it was for the trio. And...after their fifth year, their ways parted. Lily was known to be a good student, so it isn't surprising that she might excel in potion making. Snape was equally good, but he wasn't pretty, pert, and charming, and Slughorn wouldn't be charmed by him.

Posted by: DigificWriter Feb 5 2008, 04:30 PM

My personal belief is that he was using the Advanced Potions textbook as his 'Half Blood Prince Journal' much earlier than even his 5th Year, and that Lily was involved in some way with the potions modifications that were written in it and which Harry later followed. It is also possible that she had something to do with some of the spells that were written in the book, since we know that her wand was especially made for charm work. As I mentioned, Hermione makes the observation tha some of the notes in the 'journal' appear to be written in female handwriting. This is significant because Jo has stated that she uses Hermione as a sort of 'avatar' for herself when she needed to convey important information, which leads me to believe that this observation was in fact correct, and a female in Snape's life had something to do with the book's creation, all of which is evidence that points to Lily having something to do with the 'journal'.



Hermione makes the argument that Eileen could've been the 'Half Blood Prince', but since Snape later takes ownership of the book and proclaims himself to be the 'Half Blood Prince', the likelihood of Eileen having used the book as a 'journal' before her son isn't that great, and the only other person who could have written in the book and who is female is Lily.



Yes, it would have been more difficult for Snape and Lily to maintain their friendship while at Hogwarts due to their being in separate Houses, but we're shown that it wasn't impossible. You also have to take into account the fact that their families lived in close proximity to each other, and that Snape - given his dismal home life - would have most likely spent most of his free time during the summer with Lily, either at her house or elsewhere, which would've given them both more than enough time to memorize and/or perfect skills in potions.

Posted by: roonwit Feb 5 2008, 04:32 PM

I am not convinced. Potions was probably still a big interest for both of them, so I could imagine a slightly uneasy truce in potions lessons whatever else happened elsewhere. I also think Lily would still be polite to Snape but wouldn't have any lengthy conversations or be alone with him.

Posted by: DigificWriter Feb 5 2008, 04:50 PM

roonwit's position has some merit, and here's why:

Given that Lily was quite possibly Snape's only friend - real or otherwise - for a while during their years at Hogwarts, it doesn't strike me as out of the question for them to have not been worried about hiding their friendship despite the traditional hatred & rivalry between Gryffindor and Slytherin Houses. The likelihood of their friendship becoming common knowledge around the school increases if they were in fact Potions partners, as I and others believe, and which the evidence that we have supports. Despite what she said to Snape that night outside Gryffindor Tower, everything else we've ever heard about Lily paints her as the type of person who, while standing resolute, would not have joined in badmouthing Snape, but would have been civil when required while mostly ignoring him the rest of the time. I don't think either Lily or Snape would've had the courage - or been willing - to go to Slughorn and request a change in Potions partners because they would have had to provide an explanation for why they were making the request, which would have led to problems for the both of them from some of their classmates (particularly the Marauders and Snape's Slytherin 'friends'). Even if they didn't remain Potions partners - if they were ever partners to begin with, which seems likely given what evidence we have - following the end of their friendship, it would have been extremely impractical for Lily to abandon using the alternate techniques she'd learned from or helped Snape develop.

Posted by: Oryx Feb 5 2008, 06:19 PM

For the same reason Hermione borrows books like 'Hogwarts a History' and brings them home for the hollidays - light reading.

Posted by: Laura W Feb 6 2008, 02:07 AM

1.
" and they might still have worked together in the NEWT years even if they
weren't friends" - roonwit

On this I couldn't disagree with you more. The finality of Lily's ending of their friendship during the conversation outside the Gryffindor quarters on that night of their DADA OWLs - as we heard it in the Prince's Tale - is absolute to me. I think, from that moment on, Lily not only did not only do any schoolwork with Severus, but did not speak to him or acknowledge him again . That's how I see it. -Laura W

I am not convinced. Potions was probably still a big interest for both of them, so I could imagine a slightly uneasy truce in potions lessons whatever else happened elsewhere. I also think Lily would still be polite to Snape but wouldn't have any lengthy conversations or be alone with him. - roonwit



I'm aftraid i still don't see it that way. When Lily called Snape "Snivellus" (ie - the word James Potter gave Snape on the Hogwarts Express so many years before. Ouch!!), I think that was, in her mind, the total severing (pun not intended) of their relationship.

And perhaps you view that conversation between Snape and Lily at the entrance to Gryffindor Tower as less that's-it-we-are-through-forever than I do, roonwit. When I read the words, "Slipped out?" There was no pity in Lily's voice. "It's too late. I've made excuses for you for years. ... You've chosen your way, I've chosen mine."; I see no "uneasy truce" or "still being polite to Snape." I see, "That's it! The end! You no longer exist to me."


2.
"I don't think either Lily or Snape would've had the courage - or been willing - to go to Slughorn and request a change in Potions partners because they would have had to provide an explanation for why they were making the request, which would have led to problems for the both of them from some of their classmates (particularly the Marauders and Snape's Slytherin 'friends')." - DigificWriter


And I see Lily doing just that. Based on how Slughorn described Lily Evans in HBP. If Gryffindors and Slytherins took Potions together from 1971 to 1977, and if Lily and Severus were Potion partners for the first five years, I can just picture the following:

Beginning of sixth year Potions, Lily approaches two other students - Potions partners - and says to one of them, "How would you like to be my partner this year?" The student says, "Aren't you and Severus usually partners?" Lily says, "We have been, but this year I'd like to work with you." The student says (knowing that Lily gets really good Potion marks), "Yeah, sure."



3.
"Light reading." Hee, hee, Oryx.



Laura

Posted by: Anniemaji Feb 10 2008, 08:35 PM

I too believed that JKR had Hermione note the feminine handwriting for a reason, but all the reasons I've been able to come up with don't make sense. You could think it was Eileen Prince's handwriting, but Sectumsempra was in the feminine handwriting (so it seems, no difference in the handwriting was noted by Harry) and that doesn't make sense if we believe that Snape invented it, as he said. You can speculate that Lily Potter helped Snape with notes in his book, and the handwriting would be her's, but Lily would not write out a spell like Sectumsempra, nor is it noted that there are two different handwritings in the book. I even thought it possible, after reading DH, that the feminine handwriting was another attribute of Snape's love for Lily, like taking on her Patronus. But it occurs so much earlier than the crisis that proceeded his taking her Patronus (I think--is there any reason to think that his Patronus always was the same as Lily's, even at first, just b/c he always loved her??? but I digress...) that I'm not too convinced that this could be so. So there are too many cross-clues for me to think that the feminine handwriting isn't just a red herring. That's where I'm leaving it for not, until I can get face to face with JKR and ask her!

Posted by: harrydavid Feb 10 2008, 09:33 PM

As for the feminine handwriting, I believe that it was Hermione that thought it might be a girl's handwriting, not Harry. Actually, I think the description of his handwriting in HBP is similar to the description of the small, cramped writing that Harry notices in OotP during Snape's OWL exam. I think that the description of the handwriting was a clue, however obtuse, to Snape being the Half Blood Prince. Of course, I missed it. There really isn't anything that indicates anyone but Snape wrote in the book.

Posted by: harrypottergeek2 Feb 11 2008, 12:55 AM

I don't think there's any doubt that the handwriting in the Advanced Potions book is strictly Snape's, but I do think there's a possibilty that Lily and Snape helped each other out a bit in potions. However, I do not think that Lily had anything to do with the invented spells in that book. Those were purely Snape's work, especially ones like Sectumsempra; he takes full credit for inventing them at the end of HBP. Lily might have had an influence on the revisions to the potion instructions, but I think those were mostly Snape's work.

Posted by: sTiTcH Feb 11 2008, 01:56 AM

i think the comment about the handwriting being feminine was simply for discriptive purposes.. theres a whole phsycological study about a persons handwriting reflecting certain things about their personality. when you think of a womans handwriting, you think of something very sleek, slanty, emphasis on capitals and certain loops and accents, maybe even with a cursive quality where the letters run together.. and to me, thats severus snape all over!! haha

but it could have also just been a herring. i think there may have been some very slight discription of snapes handwriting in previous books.. she probably didnt want us catching on too fast.

Posted by: Shampoo4Snape Feb 13 2008, 04:30 PM

I always pictured Lily somewhat Hermione-ish, excelling in all classes and everything, and being as beautiful and delightful(only adjective I could come up with) as she's usually described, it wouldn't be strange that Slughorn took her as a favorite, and only spoke of her as a great potion-maker because it was the area were he saw her at it. Snape, on the other hand, while being a great potion-maker as well, is always described as ugly and un-popular, so would go unnoticed by the elitist teacher...

Posted by: patricia.potter19 Feb 13 2008, 05:02 PM

No way Lily could have benefited that book, because they were in the same year, so Snape was writing it.

He could help her, though. Or she was also very good, or as she considered Snape a friend, benefited from his talent.

Posted by: dominanttuba Jun 24 2008, 07:31 PM

I feel like both Lily and Snape would have been very good at potions.
We seem to get the impreesion over the course of the seven books that Lily was a very good student (Harry is told on more than one occasion that she was a singularly gifted witch). So we could safely assume that she would apply herself just as dutifully to Potions as she would to her other subjects. And the fact that it seemed to be something that she and her best friend could connect with probably only made her enjoy it more.
Anyway, I think that Severus probably had the natural talent (after all, he was called upon both by Dumbledore and by Voldemort to do things that no other potions maker could ever have dreamed of, and accomplished them). And I think Lily just tried very hard. And when you put two people like that together (natural talent and good study habits) amazing things can happen.
The two probably made one of the best potions pairs the school had ever seen, and it was because they worked together.

But as for Slughorn favoring Lily, I think it was because she was probably the one to always raise her hand and answer his questions. Severus seemed to be a shy, introvert person, and plus he was probably very content with letting Lily take the praise from the teacher- even if it was by answering a difficult question that he knew she only knew that answer to because he had told her.

I don't know, that's just the way I see it- they were both smart, but unltimatley, Lily was the outgoing one of the pair and so she became the teacher's favorite.


And I think this has come up a few times over the course of the thread, and although it's not really a part of the topic, I just thought I'd give my opinion on it:
I think we could probably assume that Gryffindors and Slytherins had Potions together all seven years, because the way Slughorn spoke about the two of them, it seemed as though they had always been together.
And yes I say always. I think that even after their falling-out at the end of fifth year the two would have continued working together. They were most likely years ahead of the rest of the class, and I feel like Prof. Slughorn just couldn't have beared to see his two most promising pair split up so suddenly- I think he would have done all he could to keep them together.
Which also may explain how Snape had so much to write in his textbook even in his sixth year- the two were still working together and still feeding off of each others ideas- though there probably was no longer the same sense of companionship and teamwork that had accompanied their experiments as in the years previous.

Posted by: wickedboy Jun 26 2008, 08:38 AM

I don't think that it is possible that Lily discussed potions with Snape after she ended the friendship in 5th year. First because if she had, they would have had to have reconciled to a point - at least enough to work together and Snape would have continued to apologize. Snape's Worst Memory would not be his worst anymore because it wouldn't have spelled the moment he lost his friend. I think he felt she never forgave him for that and long hours of working together would not work out at all if she never spoke to him during potions class. Plus, by seventh year she was dating James - can you imagine her securing a seat with Snape at that point?

Moreover, James and Sirius were #1 and #2 in their class, which means they were pretty brilliant in potions as well and so I am pretty sure she'd share with her boyfriend. In fact, she may have even shared her interest with James and Sirius all along because they were all in the same house and that just happens. James and Lily couldn't have been completely hostile up to when we saw them in 5th year or else the mutual crush underlying that 5th year argument wouldn't have happened in my view.

But I do think that Snape and Lily would have had an interest in potions to share - perhaps at a similar level which was not as great as everyone seems to think. They were good at it, but recall Snape's interests was the dark arts and he merely took the Potions position because Dumbledore made him do so, he didn't want it. Lily's wand was good for charms so her interest may have also been divided.

Finally I doubt that Lily and Snape sat next to one another in any year in potions because they were Slytherin-Gryffindor; Snape's friends hated Lily and would likely call her mudblood the whole time if she sat on the Slytherin side. Lily's friends hated Snape and I can only imagine the Maruaders behavior if Snape was in their midst. Since we know the class sat by house in Harry's year - and it was worse or the same back in Lily's year, I figure the kids sat on opposite sides. So I would imagine any potions talk happened outside of class. Snape wouldn't talk about Dark Arts too much I imagine, but he'd talk about DADA and Lily about Charms or whatever she liked, and both about potions. But I am not certain that it was either of their favorite topic just because they had a knack for it.

Posted by: ladymerlin Sep 9 2008, 03:05 AM

this always intrigued me. when Harry kept using the Prince's potions book and kept being the best at potions Slughorn always said that Harry was just like Lily. I found it interesting knowing that the book was Snape's.
what is the reason for this
was it that Slughorn's memory was biased due to his adoration of Lily?
Did Snape copy to his book what Lily did in class?
Did he not show any of these skills because he wanted Lily to shine?

I'm clueless, please help me out.

Posted by: xhandler Sep 9 2008, 03:37 AM

Easily Snape... In every lesson Harry or Neville messes up, forgets one thing or another, Snape knows EXACTLY what's wrong and how to fix it. He's probably studied all potions and what happens when you do what (as shown in his book)... Lily might have been good but Snape is definitely the best. Slughorn even says at the christmas party some like that he think Harry did the best draft of something, and that not even Snape did better (and as Snape and Lily were in the same class, he'd probably say "Why not even Lily" instead of Snape)

Posted by: Lost Centaur Sep 9 2008, 10:06 AM

The potions book was old and most likely belonged to Snape's mother, Eileen. Remember the fabulous library at Spinners' End, those would have come from her Wizarding family. Snape would have had access to all those books growing up, along with his mother's magical knowledge and input. He probably received early instruction in Potions from Eileen, and she gave him her book to take with him to school (they probably couldn't afford a new one anyway.)

Snape would have, I think, joyfully worked with Lily on Potions (and probably urged her to partner with him), for which she most likely had a natural talent in her own right. But I confess I see Snape as the potions prodigy here, Lily's innate talent enhanced by his tips and knowledge.

Posted by: Pleione Sep 9 2008, 11:13 AM

*Squishity squish*

I've just merged two threads on the same topic. Please carry on discussing.

Pleione
LL Moderator