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Harry Potter discussion forum for movies, books, and more! - The Leaky Lounge _ Harry Potter Book Club _ Second cousins according to the Black Family Tree (BFT)
Posted by: Shnoing Mar 18 2008, 06:54 AM
If Doreen Potter is Harry's grandmother, Harry's second cousins are the following: Sirius and Regulus Black, Bellatrix (Black) Lestrange, Andromeda (Black) Tonks, Narcissa (Black) Malfoy.
If Septimus Weasley is Arthur's father, then his second cousins are James Potter, Walburga Black (Sirius' mother) and Cygnus Black (Bellatrx's father).
And Phineas Nigellus is the great great grandfather of: Sirius, Regulus, Bellatrix, Andromeda, Narcissa (all "Black"); and of Harry Potter, Bill, ... Ginny Weasley and (probably) Barty Crouch jr.
I don't know for sure, but I have the impression that Lucius Malfoy has indeed studied the BFT and that's why he is so talkative in the Ministry.
Posted by: rushingwater Mar 18 2008, 08:30 AM
Cool! the wizareing world must be very...intertwined. If the pure bloods would branch out a little and give new familys a few decades...
then maybe, in the end, all families would have a little muggle blood in them. And if hermione and lilly are any example, then the entire wizarding population would be smarter! 
Posted by: otter_patronus Mar 18 2008, 10:23 AM
If Septimus Weasley is Arthur's father, then his second cousins are James Potter, Walburga Black (Sirius' mother) and Cygnus Black (Bellatrx's father).
And Phineas Nigellus is the great great grandfather of: Sirius, Regulus, Bellatrix, Andromeda, Narcissa (all "Black"); and of Harry Potter, Bill, ... Ginny Weasley and (probably) Barty Crouch jr.
I don't know for sure, but I have the impression that Lucius Malfoy has indeed studied the BFT and that's why he is so talkative in the Ministry.
wait...where did you get this from? is it something i've never heard of from JKR??
*is confused*
Posted by: rowena r Mar 18 2008, 10:46 AM
Jo has provided her fans with the Black Family Tree mentioned in OOTP. You can find it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirius_Black#Family on wikipedia. 
She hasn't actually given the exact relationship between the Blacks, the Potters, the Weasleys, the Crouches, etc, but said that they were all related in some way or other. 
Posted by: Oryx Mar 18 2008, 02:07 PM
We pretty much know that Septimus is Arthur's dad, because Sirius says they are second cousins once removed, IIRC. Add to Phineas Nigellus' descendants - Neville Longbottom (plus possibly some second cousins of his, I think Frank was an only child, but of the Longbottoms on the tree are Nevile's family, then Frank's dad (Augusta's husband) had a sister. The first cousins of the Weasley children are also Phineas' offspring (through Arthur's 2 brothers, or just one if the other was Bilius). And if Caspar Crouch is Barty Sr's father then he had those 2 sisters who might have been the mothers of Barty Jr's first cousins.
And let's not forget Marius Black, the Squib. Who knows, if he married a Muggle then Phineas might even have offspring in the Muggle world. Ah, to have old Phineas see his great-great-great-grandchildren: mostly half-bloods, and then some are including part-veela, one is the son of a werewolf, possibly Muggles, and very few purebloods. Yes, the Mudblood that took his portrait to the forest of Dean is the mother of two of his great-great-great-grandchildren.
Posted by: Antonija Mar 18 2008, 02:42 PM
How do you know that Dorea and Charlus were james's parents? It doesn't say that and maybe they were someone else?
Posted by: Maime the Hunter Mar 19 2008, 11:46 AM
We don't know that they weren't? There are no other Potters in the English wizard world. Sirius was related to Ron, and perhaps either by marriage if not blood to Barty Crouch and Neville Longbottom according to the tree. The dates on the tree are not written in stone. (I think Jo has a couple people who are parents at thirteen!) and we have to consider Jo estimates dates--Dumbledore lost about forty years from beginning to end. It is possible, especially from what Sirius says, that he and James, therefore Harry were cousins.
Now that means that Harry had blood relatives who were wizards--but no one who directly connected to his father except Sirius. For that matter Voldemort was a distant --very distant cousin of Harry.
Do I think it was possible because of the spiritual connection between James, Lily, and Sirius for Dumbledore to create a charm of protection : Of course, this is fiction after all and the author is free to invent any kind of magic. I am one who holds spiritual bonds as high bonds of blood in some circumstances. If this was not possible we would all have to marry relatives, as the bond of marriage or a loving committment is supposedly as high a bond as two people can have. Of course, for some that is debatable. 
But Jo wanted to stress the bond between the sisters for her tale, especially because it was important to her story that Petunia and Lily were not loving sisters.
Posted by: coppertopchopperhopper Mar 19 2008, 11:56 AM
But wouldn't Sirius have made a big issue of being related to James and Harry by blood? Rather then being just a Godfather to him?
Posted by: Maime the Hunter Mar 19 2008, 12:20 PM
Harry was shocked to learn that Sirius was related to Bella and the Malfoys. And Sirius does tell Harry that those people are not his (Sirius") Family, Harry is. Lily and James were. I think, at least for Jo, the love Sirius had for James, Lily, and Harry had very little to do with any blood connection if there was one. I don't think she wanted the fact that they were cousins, or might have been cousins to overwhelm the love between them.
Posted by: coppertopchopperhopper Mar 19 2008, 12:32 PM
Yes, and that's always the way I've read it.
But i think that if Sirius had a direct blood line with Harry it Would have been important to him and particulerly to Harry.
After all it would also mean that Harry had a direct blood relationship with the Weasleys as well, which would also have meant a great deal to him.
Posted by: Maime the Hunter Mar 19 2008, 01:35 PM
I don't think people in English society--or at least Jo Rowling-- puts as much emphasis on what she would possibly consider a distant family tie as some Americans or other cultures. Not every culture regard family ties in the same way, and even in the US, some people don't see family relationships past brother, sister, aunts, uncles and "first" cousins as significant as others.
Posted by: Shnoing Mar 19 2008, 04:32 PM
On the one hand, I think as long as they are allowed to marry each other, they may pass as "only distantly related". I don't know the English (or Scottish) laws on that topic, but I think second cousins are considered distant enough.
On the other hand, I think it's surprising to see that most people who at some point are crucial in Voldemorts downfall are descendants of Phineas Nigellus (with the exception of Dumbledore, Snape, Lily and Hermione, of course):
Harry, Neville (Nagini), Ron (locket!Crux), Narcissa (forest scene), Regulus (via Kreacher) and even, inadvertedly, Bellatrix (providing a hair for the Polyjuice Potion).
Posted by: Shnoing Mar 20 2008, 06:22 AM
Now here: Orion and Walburga Black, Sirius' parents, are second cousins, too.
On more thought: if Dumbledore hadn't intervened, Harry would have ended in the Wizarding World at the nearest relative of his father - that would have been Andromeda Tonks or Narcissa Malfoy - what a story!
Posted by: Bombadillo Mar 20 2008, 02:06 PM
Don't forget Ignatius Prewett. That is probally the father of Molly, Fabian and Gideon. That would make her and Arthur second cousins once removed. I don't know why she pur Charlus Potter on the family tree, but I would think if it was Harrys grandparents something would have been said about it in the book.
Posted by: Maime the Hunter Mar 20 2008, 02:10 PM
In some pockets of American society the idea of marrying a second cousin is thought as unlikely as marrying a sister or brother, but the definition of family in these groups is very different.
Posted by: Bombadillo Mar 20 2008, 02:24 PM
I just checked, and Harfang Longbottom and Callidora Black are not Nevilles grandparents (his grandmother is Agustus Longbottom). Maybe an Aunt and Uncle?
Posted by: Oryx Mar 20 2008, 07:32 PM
Not father, but possibly uncle. The marriage between Ignatius and Lucretia produced no children. But Molly and Sirius are 'cousins by marriage' which would be possible if Molly's father was Ignatius' brother.
Posted by: Maime the Hunter Mar 20 2008, 08:21 PM
Augusta would have married into the Longbottom family, like Callidora. Callidora could be Neville's aunt or great -grandmother.
Posted by: Notit Mar 20 2008, 09:22 PM
Well Draco did remind Harry of Dudley, what a fanfic that would be.
Posted by: Shnoing Mar 24 2008, 09:39 AM
Not father, but possibly uncle. The marriage between Ignatius and Lucretia produced no children. But Molly and Sirius are 'cousins by marriage' which would be possible if Molly's father was Ignatius' brother.
About that question we have a source in canon: Sirius claims that he and Molly are "cousins by marriage" (OotP, The most Noble and Ancient House of Black). That's only possible when his aunt has married Molly's uncle. So, indeed, Ignatius is Molly's father's brother.
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