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Posted by: idtotallybeinravenclaw Apr 14 2008, 11:13 AM

A random inspiration struck me the other day and I wanted to see what everyone thought on it.

Snape despises Neville, but we never really know a concrete reason, do we? Well, we know that the prophecy made about Voldemort could have been about either Neville OR Harry. I think that later Snape discovered that it could have been Neville, and resented him for it. If Voldemort had chosen Neville as the correct boy to kill, then Lily would have never died. Thus, Snape resents Neville's continued existence.

Thoughts?

Posted by: Micromys minutus Apr 14 2008, 11:22 AM

I like that idea. Snape could have found that out from Dumbledore quite easily I think, and I'm sure the thought that Lily could have survived would have tortured Snape. And I can't think of any other reason for Snape's dislike of Neville, unless it's just because of Neville's character, and the way he struggles sometimes with the magic.

To be honest, I'd never thought about it before, and this idea makes sense and seems to fit.

Posted by: Oryx Apr 14 2008, 11:27 AM

I don't know if Snape hated Neville but he did treat him miserably for 3 books. The reasons can be many: One is the reason you mentioned. The other is that Snape did not believe Neville was really lacking in power but that he refused to control his powers (the melted cauldrons, as well as the run-away broomflight are evidence for much raw but totally uncontrolled powers) and Snape couldn't stand that attitude to being a wizard, which for him was all about control (see Occlumency). Or that Snape found Neville, just like Harry, a disappointment - how could the salvation of the wizarding world depend on such incompetents?

Posted by: xxmuffyxx Apr 14 2008, 11:30 AM

sorry but "miserably for 3 books"? i thought tht snape bullied all the way through because it was compulsorary therefore neville never stopped potions? or is tht just my imagination? sorry if im wrong xx

Posted by: lirene Apr 14 2008, 11:32 AM

I was never under the impression that Snape hated Neville. True, Snape hardly treated Neville kindly in Potions class. I always felt that Snape's treatment of Neville reflected Neville's seeming ineptitude in class; and not based on some type of personal vendetta against Neville.

Posted by: Oryx Apr 14 2008, 11:35 AM

Can you find a quote where Snape is mean to Neville in books 4-7? The only interactions between them I can remember in these books is Snape telling Crabbe not to strangle Neville in OOTP and Snape 'punishing' Neville, Ginny and Luna by sending them with Hagrid to the Forbidden Forest in DH.

Posted by: Laura W Apr 14 2008, 12:05 PM

OoP, Chapter 12 -
(SS): " ... Moronic though some of this class undoubtedly are, I expect you to scrape an 'Acceptable' in your OWL, or suffer my ... displeasure.'
His gaze lingered this time on Neville, who gulped."

Remark meant specifically for Neville (calling him a moron), accompanied by a threat. (Of course, Snape would never actually physically hurt Neville. But his intention was obviously to instill fear or, at least, anxiety in the boy he was pointedly gazing at. Thus, "suffer my displeasure".)



LW

Posted by: Eden08 Apr 14 2008, 12:18 PM

I think Snape sees Neville as the weakest link...Neville was from the start the kid that everyone bullied ... And since Snape already loathes every House except his own..
Neville makes an easy target...

Posted by: Oryx Apr 14 2008, 12:19 PM

Yes, Snape was not looking forward to preparing Neville to repeating his OWLs if the latter insisted on one in Potions, he just wanted to be rid of him.

(Reminds me of my own Snape-like teacher's remarks: 'This topic will be covered in more detail in 11th grade - by those of you who will make it there.')

What I wonder is why Harry and his friends care so much about what Snape had to say about them. My friends and I learned quickly enough to either shrug away that teacher's comments or to laugh at them.

Posted by: Lindsay85 Apr 14 2008, 12:28 PM

QUOTE(lirene @ Apr 14 2008, 09:32 AM)

QUOTE(idtotallybeinravenclaw @ Apr 14 2008, 12:13 PM)

I think that later Snape discovered that it could have been Neville, and resented him for it. If Voldemort had chosen Neville as the correct boy to kill, then Lily would have never died. Thus, Snape resents Neville's continued existence.

I was never under the impression that Snape hated Neville. True, Snape hardly treated Neville kindly in Potions class. I always felt that Snape's treatment of Neville reflected Neville's seeming ineptitude in class; and not based on some type of personal vendetta against Neville.

I had always thought the same thing. However, one could argue that he treated Hermione poorly when she did very well in class, so there is a possiblilty that he had other reasons. Do we know of anyone Snape treated badly that was not a friend of Harry's? I'm sure there were many, we just don't see it, but I can see Snape being a little less than kind to anyone who is friends with Harry.

idtotallybeinravenclaw, the possibility that Snape knew it could have been Neville is very interesting. Obviously if Voldemort had picked Neville then Lily would still be alive.

Posted by: lirene Apr 14 2008, 12:44 PM

Children and adolescents react very differently to teachers who use negative reinforcement as a teaching method in order to get their point accross. You and your friends learned that it was better to ignore said teacher by using humor and laughter as a defense mechanism. Instead of using the former method, Harry immediately reacts in a very typical manner by way of "what have I done to deserve this treatment?"; "why am I being singled out?". Harry's attitude very quickly evolves from surprise, and indignation, to anger and hatred.

Posted by: Laura W Apr 14 2008, 12:53 PM

"What I wonder is why Harry and his friends care so much about what Snape had to say about them. My friends and I learned quickly enough to either shrug away that teacher's comments or to laugh at them."



Whereas I was absolutely mortified if a teacher criticized me in front of the class! Not only in elementary school, but also in high school and in college. I felt like sinking into the ground and never coming out. I was both embarrassed and humiliated if a teacher so much as said, "Your hair is a mess today, Laura" or "You need to get your grades up, Laura" in front of my classmates. And I am not exaggerating. Even in college.

Posted by: idtotallybeinravenclaw Apr 14 2008, 02:42 PM

Well, I also think it was the general cruelty of Snape's remarks. For example, when Hermione's teeth get hit by the spell and Snape just says, "I see no difference"--that's not harsh, or even mean, that's downright cruel. Why I think Snape hated Neville was because of how utterly cruel he was, in the same way he was cruel to Harry, who he was trying so desperately to hate.

Posted by: Mollycoddle88 Apr 14 2008, 09:50 PM

Personally I think Snape hated Neville so much because one: he was a Gryffindor two: he was terrible at potions three: MAYBE Snape knew Neville's gran from somewhere... or perhaps it was because of Neville's boggart.. hehe

Posted by: Lord Montymort Apr 23 2008, 05:34 PM

I think three reasons why he disliked Neville. One, he wasn't in Slythern. Which I know is petty, but every other house is guilty of it. Two, Snape is a very skilled wizard. I think the way he looks at it, if you're not up to his expected skill level, your not worthy of his time. Three, he was bullied at school and became bittered by it, that he himself turned into one.

Posted by: Bradley Apr 23 2008, 05:40 PM

Maybe I am forgetting soemthing from the series, but I think Snape didnt like Neville because he knows that Nevills family could have bee the ones killed, not Harrys and Lily could still be alive.

Posted by: Weird One Apr 23 2008, 05:44 PM

Besides the fact that Snape was sarcastic and verbally cruel I think you are bang on.

Posted by: tonksgirl Apr 23 2008, 06:02 PM

very interesting theory. i think i agree with you partially. i always saw snape as totally evil and cruel (esp. after HBP, i was one who did NOT support severus snape) but when i read DH i got a different view of him. i still dislike him, but not as much. so yeah, a a bit (or even most) of his bitterness towards neville can be explained by the fact that if LV had chosen him Lily still would be alive.


the rest of snape's hate of - or obvious distaste for - neville is bc of the reasons you said, Lord Montymort. especially number 3. he was the one picked on by the marauders (which intensifies idtotallybeinravenclaw's opinion, bc then the whole lily/james/snape triangle would be thrown in the middle, thus reinforcing the idea that, if voldy had gone after neville, then lily wouldnt be dead) and since he couldnt do anything about it at the time now he's taking his feeling off on neville, and also harry and his friends, as someone else stated: snape was eager to be unfriendly (to say the least) to anyone who was friends with harry.


sorry if im not making sense, just typed that all real fast, i hope you can understand it

Posted by: Lord Montymort Apr 23 2008, 06:02 PM

Ah well spotted! I don't know why I didn't think along like thatline. But, then again that doesn't explain his attitude to Hermione and other students. Perhaps Snape was just angry at everything. I mean he lost the women he loved, and that he had slight involvement in. So he just hated the world maybe.

Posted by: Canis sapiens Apr 24 2008, 12:29 AM

I'm not so sure Snape hated Neville particularly. He didn't like his students generally and especially not the Gryffindors for obvious reasons. Gryffindor took Lily from him in more ways than one. Neville became his particular target for bullying because like all bullies he wanted to attack the weakest in that loathed pack What a wonderful irony then that it was Neville who unwittingly avenged his death by killing Nagini. If Snape had been looking down on that scene from the Great Hogwarts in the sky - what would he have been thinking?

Posted by: CryptMistress Apr 24 2008, 01:22 AM

That is ironic, isn't it? Snape, who obviously disliked Neville for reasons all his own, avenged by him! It would be quite interesting to see how Snape would've reacted to what Neville did for him?

Posted by: Bradley Apr 24 2008, 05:01 AM

Well I think Snape is abusive to Neville because Neville seems to be anything right (I know harsh, but its true) I think Snape sees in his eyes that Lily would still be alive and Neville and his parents (already pretty much gone) would be dead if Voldemort would have assumed Neville the chossen one or what ever the person was in Voldys eyes...

Posted by: Lord Montymort Apr 24 2008, 05:24 AM

That brings up another thing to theorise about. Would Snape still be as nasty to Harry, if Lily was still alive?!? And would he make all those snide comments to Neville?

Posted by: Kermit Apr 24 2008, 07:06 PM

I think he doesn't really hate Neville but he has no patience with him and no respect for his students. I don't think Snape is a good teacher despite all his knowledge. He has no patience for errors or weakness. As you remember, Neville was not the most self-confident student so he became flustered and as a result he made mistakes. I think Snape thought highly of his own intelligence and may have resented teaching students that didn't demonstrate his level of skill or competence (in potions). He would have been very happy and less intimidating if he had been asked to teach many little "Snapes" or clones of himself.

Posted by: Bradley Apr 25 2008, 02:36 AM

That would be a good thread topic, I still think Snape would be mean because he would see James in Harry and James would still be alive so they would still be enemies.

If Voldemort would have thought it was Neville not Harry he would have AKed the whole Longbottom family or would have Nevilles parents love for their son have saved him, would Neville be the one with the scar? The longbottoms were tortured into insanity now that I think of it...

One thing I want to bring up that I am sure will have some people disagree with me, but doesnt Neville seem like a easy perso to pick on? He isnt the best at anything (well he is good with herbology, but that doesnt really mean that much) Neville always seems to be the one with the accidents and what not I mean the first time we actually see him he is trying to find Trevor who got loose

Harry was hardened by his time spent being a slave to the Dursleys, I dont expect Neville to be that tough after living with his Grandmother.

Oh wow if his Parents were already in St. Mungos than it would have been Nevilles Grandmother that would be there to protect him. I wouldnt think of her being that much of a fight for old Voldy

Posted by: Maime the Hunter Apr 25 2008, 04:03 AM

I see nothing to indicate that Crabbe or Goyle are competent potion makers. And Seamus makes quite a few errors and Seamus is a Gryffindor. He doesn't berate them or call them names in class as he does Neville.

Looking at Neville from the point of view of Snape, an adult who abuses his position as a teacher to bullies children in his care, I would say yes.

I don't think Snape hates Neville. After all Neville reinforces his image of himself as feared. Neville quakes and shakes if Snape comes near. The boy can't think. Snape can get that much satifisaction in goading Harry or Ron because they have the measure of Snape in five minutes. He likes the power of being able to silence Hermione, the Muggle-born know it all, who learns potions and magic by rote and book. And finally in GOF the coup--he makes her cry.

Jo says Snape is sadistic, and in Snape's case I she is not speaking of the sensual sadism, but a person who must feel in control and powerful.

Then Lupin shows Neville what Snape really is, the boggart in the closet. Snape's reaction was not shame that he intimidated a child who had gone through what he knew Neville had experienced but was bullying Neville worse than ever.

If Voldemort had chosen Neville Snape would not have asked Voldemort to spare Alice or Frank. Therefore, Snape would have come to Dumbledore only to spy for Voldemort and Dumbledore, who knew by this time that Snape was a Death Eater who felt no remorse for his actions would have turned him over to Crouch who would have thrown Snape into Azkaban.

Someone other than Snape would have had to speak up for one of the Longbottoms for them to survive, because even if Alice or Frank had jumped in front of Neville, nothing miraculous would have happen, because Lily's sacrifice was only magical because Voldemort gave her a choice of her life if she would move.

Now, in the typical more than one candidate sceanario, after easily defeating the Longbottoms Voldemort would still go after Harry. Why take any chances? Then Snape , if he wasn't captured by Dumbledore would have his chance to make a difference by asking Voldemort to spare Lily's life.

But in order to get Snape in position to teach at Hogwarts, Voldemort has to choose Lily and Snape has to show Dumbledore his remorse and true fear for Lily's life.

But I do wonder if the fact that Neville was not chosen, and seems so "poor" a wizard is part of the reason for Snape's maltreatment of the boy?

Posted by: Lord Montymort Apr 25 2008, 07:11 AM

Yes, that is very true. Had Alice and Frank been Voldy's choosen victims. There would have been no remorse Snape, and he wouldn't be Dumbledore's man through and through.

I would also say yes, Neville does strike the type to pick on. But you see he becomes less weak, and more of a strong character later on in the series. You notice his transformation begining in OotP.

Posted by: JaneMarple9 Apr 25 2008, 01:23 PM

I feel as Snape hated Neville because he wasn't the boy who lived. Everything would have been so different, if Neville has been the one Voldemort had chosen. Lily and James would have still been alive. OK, Harry would probably would still be at Hogwarts, Snape would see him all the time, but Snape would know Lily was still alive. Snape also does not like people who don't do well at Potions. Neville was a sitting target for Snape

Posted by: Lost Centaur Apr 25 2008, 01:53 PM

Snape was self-immolated on his guilt for the part he played in the death of Lily, as well as his guilt in unthinkingly destroying his relationship with her while in school. This guilt only compounded his petrified self hatred from childhood...something he abhors about himself and which he cannot confront.

Anything that reminds him of his part in Lily's death would be like a knife in the heart to Snape. So, Harry and any of his friends would be targeted for special scrutiny and bullying. Neville, not only as Harry's friend but as the other candidate for the prophecy, would remind him especially of what he had done...and he makes Neville pay. Daily and dearly.

Posted by: Oryx Apr 25 2008, 01:57 PM

Rowling could have shown us interactions between Snape and Neville in 6th year DADA, when Neville was a decent student at the subject. Since she did not we do not know if Neville's newfound competency ever gave Snape second thoughts. We do know that when it came to serious bodily harm Snape, from his limited position as undercover agent , protected Neville as much as he protected other students.

Posted by: Lost Centaur Apr 25 2008, 04:08 PM

Yes Oryx, I agree and think it fascinating. In fact, I think I remember reading somewhere that JKR was impressed by Alan Rickman's instinctive (as an actor) reaction to protect the children from the werewolf Lupin. Snape is, ultimately, their protector. And he takes it seriously.



*edited to fix another dumb spelling error. ;>(

Posted by: Alysaw Apr 25 2008, 05:56 PM

Alan Rickman as Snape protected the Trio from Lupin the Werewolf only in the movie version. In the book he was unconscious. I remember reading that JKR was nervous about that particular film scene because she feared it would give away too much about the character. We were kept guessing about Severus until the final book not really knowing if he was good or evil.

Posted by: QuirrellMort Apr 26 2008, 09:27 PM

Didn't read through the thread, just wanted to add I've been thinking about this a loooooong time, and was thinking about making my own thread, but found this first. Kind of happy too because I would hate to be the person to bring something up that already has been.

We know Snape wouldn't have minded giving up James and Harry to get Lily, so I fully believe he would let Neville( and maybe most of his family) die for his own gain.

Posted by: Gllysa Apr 27 2008, 05:55 PM

I think the way Neville dealt with the boggart in PoA had a lot to do with it. Dressed Snape up in his Gran's clothes as I recall!

Posted by: Maime the Hunter May 2 2008, 01:36 PM

Really: and that ridiculous scene where Sirius tries to reason with a werewolf didn't bother her? How did Kloves and Cuaron managed to read the Line: "Run" and interpret it :'Your heart..."?

Or what about Severus relative calm? That was totally out of character for Snape. I was so looking to a classic Rickman tantrum.


If Snape had been awake, of course he would have helped, but in the book he was out like a light. Lupin and Sirius did not leave Snivllus in the Shack alone. Sirius did not tell Severus anything remotely like Gary Oldman's line's, (Although I admit I loved the scene because I certain I saw Rickman react to Oldman rather than Snape to Sirius--I wonder if Oldman got it in one take. )
I'll stop here before I forget that POA is actually my favorite HP movie.

Neville did not choose to see the Boggart as Snape. The Boggart took the shape of what scared this boy the most. Snape had bullied Neville from day one in SS/PS. By the time Neville faced his boggart, in spite everything he had been through in his young life life, in spite of the fact that it was Neville who first noted Fluffy (Page 160 SS/PS USA version) and going into the Dark Forrest for detention, the thing that scared the boy was Severus Snape.


Yes well, tragic anti-heroes are not known for owning up to their own role in the tragedies of their lives. They often feel like fate has dealt them a bad hand. And to be honest, who among us is ready to acknowledge our own folly, if there is someone or something else to blame it on?

To Snape: It's Neville's fault Harry was chosen. (maybe) It's James fault Peter betrayed them. The fact that Snape is the one who told Voldemort the prophesy has nothing--in Snape's thinking_-to do with the fact that on Halloween night, 1981 that madman is hiding behind a hedge ready to kill every body in side. After all Snape only warned the Dark Lord about the threat so he could kill the chosen one--Not Lily.

Denial like that does make the palm itch. But because of what Snape would have been if Voldemort had spared Lily or chosen Neville--that is still a Death Eater, still supporting Voldemort --doesn't paint of picture of someone who is protective of young people or anyone but himself by nature.

He wasn't asked to protect all the children, but help Dumbledore protect Harry. Snape is not asked to look after the students of Hogwarts until after Dumbledore asks him to kill him and explains to that he thinks Voldemort will take control of Hogwarts after he dies.

We plainly see in DH that Dumbledore reprimands Snape because of his lack of care of Draco has resulted in serious injury to two other students that could have been prevented. I don't think Snape deliberate allowed the injuries so he could leap in and save the day in his new position, but that is not unlikely.

We should note in COS he does not volunteer to help with the young people who are petrified until Gilderoy speaks up. He takes on the task of teaching the children to duel, only after allowing Gilderoy to fail. Certainly there were ways to disguise himself to assist the Order at the DOM?

He came to his new found compassion in his own words Lately and that was HBP.

Posted by: Oryx May 2 2008, 03:49 PM

But he not just teaches the children, he casts the room-wide Finite Incantatem. He does act to keep the children safe and the situation under control. Even when he instructs draco with a dangerous spell, it is one Snape knows how to deal with. (As opposed to Lockharts' Cornish Pixies lesson.) Unless Lucius told him anything Snape did not know how to help with the Chamber of secrets and its monster any more than anyone else. And perhaps even Lucius didn't know more than that the previous time the Chamber was opened a Muggle-born student died.

Posted by: Kermit May 3 2008, 09:21 PM

I don't see how Lily's sacrifice has anything to do with Snape's antipathy towards Neville. I am seeing it from the point of view of Snape as a teacher, which has nothing to do with the "child who lived" argument. My point is that Snape does not like mistakes. He allows his Slytherins to bully others on his behalf, and as a result, does not correct Crabbe or Goyle when they tease or harass the trio and their friends. I think that Snape does not like Neville because he believes that Neville has no place in potions; he does not belong; he does not have the talent, etc. He reacts this way when Harry cannot "concentrate" during his Occlumency sessions. Again, he shows no patience and he doesn't find a way to connect with the student to understand where they are coming from. Sorry, but as brilliant as Snape is, he remains a poor teacher. Had he been a gifted TEACHER, all of his students would have excelled and all of his knowledge would have been passed on to them. Remember that the Wizarding students are not like ordinary students in public (Muggle) schools. Wizarding students would have welcomed all the Magical knowledge they could have acquired.

Posted by: wickedboy May 4 2008, 02:01 AM

There is that passage in Cos that says 3/4 of the student body disliked Snape. I don't know if he picked Neville out especially other than he saw more opportunities with the kid. But Snape bullied all of the kids except Slytherins whenever he got the chance - and sometime he created an opportunity when one didn't present itself. That is something he did often with Harry, reading articles in class, whispering that he was nothing more than a nasty little boy and such. I think he liked to get a reaction, so Neville was a good way to get one - as was Harry.

Posted by: Oryx May 4 2008, 02:33 AM

Sorry, but there is no such thing as a teacher who teaches a general public of students and all students in the class excel. Students vary in talents and inclinations. The most brilliant Divination teacher would not make Hermione successful in that discipline - she is not inclined that way. Flitwick and McGonagall appear to be rather good teachers, but Harry and Ron only get Es, Neville has an E in Charms and an A in Transfiguration. Success at a discipline depends both on the teacher and the student.

Posted by: Antonija May 4 2008, 07:35 AM

When I started reading your thread I also thought about that possibility. Maybe Snape regreted that he told that Harry is that boy, because than Voldmeort wouldn't come after Lily it would be Neville. And maybe everytime he see Neville he reminds himself of that sad past.

Posted by: Kermit May 6 2008, 08:42 PM

I agree with you and sorry I didn't make myself clearer. Yes, success depends on both. However, I don't see Snape too eager to pass on his gift. I suppose that is because he really wanted to teach Defense. I don't suppose he would have had very good results in that area either.

Posted by: Lord Montymort May 7 2008, 06:21 AM

Actually I think Harry getting an E is very good. He was reguarly marked at A level in Transfiguration. McGonagall even praises him for his good mark in HBP.

Posted by: Maime the Hunter May 8 2008, 09:05 AM

Can we judge Snape truly as a teacher by vocation? Often to excuse his behavior towards Harry and the other Gryffindors, fans are quick to point out he is a spy and a double agent.
This goes back in a way to Dumbledore. It depends on the person but from my point of view as a parent Snape's greater responsiblity, at least from the time he was hired was as a teacher, not as a spy. He came to Hogwarts as a teacher during costly peace. But there is nothing in the past except for the HBP potion notes and his treatment of Lily to indicate that Snape had any vocation as teacher. Sharing his talents and knowledge limited to himself and one person he loved.

We expect teachers to challenge their children to learn, not to terrify them.
Snape was given a position of authority he abused, not giving a job he sought out because he had always wanted to teach.

Lily's sacrifice is not connected to his treatment of Neville. The connection between Severus treatment of Neville--if there is one--and Lily would be directly related to Severus Snape's own denial concerting his role in Lily's Death.

Snape blames Lily's death on James trusting Sirius and Sirius and the entire Order, including Dumbledore trusting Peter, but the fact is Voldemort would not have shown up at James and Lily's determined to kill Harry and James had not Snape gone to Voldemort and told him a boy born at the end of July would be a threat to his power. While it is true, Snape had not power to choose for the Dark Lord, it is Snape who gave Voldemort the information that made the choice, at least to Voldemort necessary, if that makes any sense. Without knowledge that their child was a threat to him, the only reason Voldemort might have tried to contact the James and Lily was to once again for their son's sake to them to join him. After all he asked them before when they were teenagers.

Snape knew when he told Voldemort about the prophesy that Voldemort would destroy this threat, meaning Snape knew Voldemort would murder the family, just the Three Wise Men figured out with a little help that Herod wasn't planning to show up in Bethlehem with myrrh and incense.

But Voldemort choose Harry when Neville was available. Snape did not know why Voldemort choose Harry, but it is possible that as delusional as Snape was (Up until at least OOP) concerning the source of the Dark Lord's power, he might have believed that Voldemort sense somehow that Neville would be as awkward as he turned out.

Snape only understands power and control, so naturally he would see Voldemort as a superior wizard, not recognizing that Voldemort's main source of power and control sprang from a complete lack of compassion and disregard for life, as well as his clever use of his follower's devotion and fear.

As a follower, Snape did not understand how his service to Voldemort empowered the Dark Lord. He did not see his service as reciprocal. And Severus Snape would not want to see a specific service of his to Voldemort--informing Voldemort of the threat to his power-- as contributing to Lily Potter's death.
He may have, for the sake of his own sanity preferred to believe that the reason Voldemort choose the Potters was that Neville was an even mediocre wizard than Potter and Potter's brat.

Posted by: Nana Evans May 8 2008, 01:15 PM

I think he merely viewed Neville as a dullard and had no patience for someone whom he believed was unteachable, especially a student from the House of Gryffindor where, in Snape's view, they valued "brawn over brains".

Posted by: Kermit May 8 2008, 06:07 PM

Simply said! And it makes sense to me.

Posted by: Maime the Hunter May 8 2008, 06:32 PM

The problem I have with this is the fact that Crabbe and Goyle are in the same class room. He doesn't bully them. One would think he would be harder on them because they are from his own house and certainly is no proof of brawn over brain--if Slytherins are brainy then Crabbe and Goyle are an embarrassment.

Well, it is not like Snape doesn't have a history Neville, as Snape is the one who reported the Prophesy to Voldemort. He understood as soon as Neville was born that Neville fit the prophesy. There were only two boys who did:Neville and Harry. Snape must have expected Voldemort to choose Neville and was in concert with this choice. But Voldemort choose Harry instead of Neville. Everything changed for Snape after Voldemort made that choice. I have no doubt that if every time Snape looks at Harry he is reminded that Lily loved James, that every time he looks at Neville, he wonders why Voldemort didn't choose him. And he seems to have that answer when Neville proves to be clumsy in his class. At least Harry fights backs. Neville just cowers. He must wonder how either of these boys could be the Chosen One.

Posted by: cooncatbob May 8 2008, 08:47 PM

Snape was not only a bully (Abused children become abuser in their own turn) but he wasn't a very good teacher. His students learned in spite of him and the one thing I can't understand is how Dumbledore tolerated his abuse of the student. Especially those who weren't in his house.
Snape knew Neville feared him and preformed badly under pressure so Snape turned up the heat every chance he got.
He's rather like the Dursleys, he's an over the top character who couldn't exist in any kind of real world.
The Dursleys would have been arrested for child abuse and Snape would have been sacked for abusing his students.

Posted by: Lord Montymort May 9 2008, 06:29 AM

The issue of what Dumbledore would make of Snape's bullying, is interesting. Perhaps he wanted to protect Snape, by keeping him as Potion master at Hogwarts, he might have overlooked that point. I know thats not exactly noble behaviour on Dumbledore's part, but, after all we now know that wasn't exactly a Saint either.

Posted by: Maime the Hunter May 9 2008, 12:07 PM

According to Jo, Dumbledore overlooked Snape's behavior because he thought the students deserved to learn--as if someone like Harry, Neville, or even Ron couldn't learn this from society in general--that not all people are nice and how to deal with them.

As a parent: experiment with your own darn kids, Albus. I'm not paying Hogwarts the big bucks to take my child hundred of miles of away to have some bitter immature former facist emotionally batter them, to ease his own troubled mind.

On the other hand as Snape is modeled after one of her teachers and certain resembles a couple of mine, she must feel that all principals or Headmaster/mistresses must feel this way as people like this continue to mar the educational pool.

Posted by: Nana Evans May 9 2008, 05:50 PM

His treatment of Crabbe and Goyle, or rather his ignoring Crabbe and Goyle's ineptitudes, is consistent with his personality and his House. He has no problem doling favoritism to his own Slytherins. If he were to treat Crabbe and Goyle the same as Neville, I think that would have required a level of fairness in Snape's character of which he was not capable. If he was that fair, he would have been a Hufflepuff.

Posted by: broomwitch Jul 4 2009, 02:27 PM

I always thought he knew the Longbottoms were a target as well on that fateful night.

Or he merely dislikes the clumsiest kid in class.

Posted by: Wendall Jul 4 2009, 02:51 PM

That's always been what I thought too. That he knew Neville was the other possible subject of the prophecy, and that Neville's parents could/should have been the ones killed by Voldemort, which would have meant Lily wouldn't have died. And he took this out on Neville.

And of course Neville's nervousness and ineptitude made him an extremely easy target. So the bully that Snape was would have singled him out almost immediately anyway.

Posted by: SeVeRuS<3 Jul 4 2009, 04:06 PM

i've always thought this too that he disliked neville because he thought it should've been neville and his parents instead of lily

Posted by: wickedboy Jul 5 2009, 02:34 AM

I don't think it had anything to do with Lily at all. Snape bullied all the kids except Slytherins. JKR said she wrote him that way. Harry only had class with his housemates and Slytherins, so that is all we saw. So JKR just gave us examples of Snape bullying those kids to show what kind of professor he was - cruel and bullying just as JKR said.

Neville was timid and fearful of Snape (Snape was his greatest fear) and I think Snape took a special joy in Neville's suffering because the child was so obviously in pain - and so Snape was drawn to cruelly tormenting him for kicks. JKR wrote Snape using words like snide, malicious, vindictive, spiteful, and sneering when describing Snape's cruel treatment of the kids - the guy enjoyed tormenting them. He was very bad with Neville - but even worse with Harry where his antics extended to physical abuse. He was just a terrible person and that was reflected in his teaching.

Posted by: Draco4eva Jul 5 2009, 02:42 AM

sure, he's a terrible person BUT he's still a cool person, he really well-made character. i think he missed the power he had when he was a Death Eater and Neville is so terrified of Snape it makes him feel he has power. =]

Sarah

SFTC!!

Posted by: roonwit Jul 5 2009, 02:54 AM

Yes, I think Neville was an easy target because of his clumsiness, lack of potions skills, and fear of Snape. Snape would be looking to bully the Gryffindors, and Neville became the focus of some of that bullying because he stood out and because the bullying was giving Snape the feeling of power that he wanted.

Posted by: SeveraSphyrna Jul 5 2009, 01:11 PM

I agree. I also think that people tend to pick on others who display the characteristics they hate about themselves. It's easy to know which buttons to push when you've felt those same buttons pushed, so to speak. It's not only easy, it's lazy---it takes much less imagination and effort for the bullied to become bullies than to recover and move on. Let's face it, Snape was certainly not skilled at moving on from anything. I think Snape spent his post-Hogwarts/Death Eater days constructing a self-assured, snarky, and brilliant exterior to hide the insecure, awkward, nerdy teenager that still lurked within him.

That being said, I tend to look more at the bigger picture when it comes to Snape's treatment of his students, including Neville. It is apparent that Snape hated being a teacher, and probably thought he could have done better for himself in terms of a career. This goes triple during LV's hiatus, since he could not rationalize keeping a job he hated for a higher reason, namely the pretense that he was regularly reporting back to LV about DD, etc. Being as prone to displaced anger as he was, I can imagine him transferring his hatred of his career onto his students. Neville, being as meek and obviously terrified as he was, ended up making it easier for Snape to do this. As a teacher myself, I certainly don't agree with this. However, I will say that I've met several teachers over the years who, despite their dislike of teaching, have continued to do so specifically to get their summers off.

Posted by: lupinwandcaster Jul 5 2009, 08:51 PM

Because Snape is Snape and Neville was a Gryffindor.

Enough said.

Posted by: rustyrulez2 Jul 12 2009, 09:08 AM

I don't think Snape "hated" Neville persay. I feel as if it is more that Snape has very little tolerance for what he views as incompetence. From day one Neville doesn't do anything right and can't seem to get even the simplest potions right. When Snape sees this he feels as if maybe humiliating him in front of his peers will motivate him to do better.

Posted by: Mrs_Linnea_Snape Jul 12 2009, 10:52 PM

That's what I always thought, but recently it was pointed out to me that since Hogwarts is the only magical school in Great Britain, and has such a celebrated 1000-year history, being a teacher there is probably a lot more prestigious a career than being a teacher in the Muggle world.

Then again, it really depends on what kind of career Snape always envisioned for himself. It's obvious that he has always been highly, highly ambitious; perhaps he imagined himself being a world-famous dueler, or an Unspeakable at the DoM, or a researcher/writer of books on arcane or newly discovered forms of Dark Magic. Something really, really, really impressive.

The thing is, highly ambitious people don't seem to ever be content to merely reach one big goal, and then coast along for the rest of their lives. Once they reach a goal, they start planning a new one. But there aren't really any promotions for teachers. You can get tenure, or go on to be Headmaster, but there isn't much opportunity for continuing, long-term advancement.

So, I dunno. Teaching at Hogwarts is probably a lot more prestigious than, say, teaching high-school math in the South Bronx. But maybe it still wasn't enough for Snape.

Posted by: snady Jul 13 2009, 02:56 PM

I'm not sure Dumbledore would have told Snape that Neville could have been the Choosen One, so I don't think he was mean to Neville because he wasn't "choosen" and Lily died. But maybe Snape found out some other way, or when he was eaves dropping when the prophecy was being made, he was aware of Neville being a possibility. However I feel it was more like one of those situations where Snape was frustrated at Neville, because he knew his parents greatness, and was sure Neville had it in him. But the thing with Snape is that he's not exactly the most cuddly of men So his way of showing his frustration was very straight forward and harsh. I think Snapes frustration from having to be a double agent was channeled through his teaching, plus the fact that he didn't get the job he originally signed up for and then on top of that all the Lily drama in his life. Snape was not a happy camper lol.

Posted by: SamanthaD Jul 13 2009, 03:05 PM

I never really paid attention to Snape and Neville's relationship. Yea he was mean to him but he never seemed to miss treat him any worse than he did any other non-Slytherin person. It's just that Neville was a klutz so that might have made his mistreatment more pronounced.

Posted by: lupinwandcaster Jul 13 2009, 10:02 PM

1. Because he was a Gryffindor.
2. Because he was bad at potions.

Posted by: Calamity Jamie Aug 23 2009, 06:59 PM

Snape didn't really like anyone, and like most bullies - Snape was absolutely a bully, for whatever reasons we learn later - he went after the most vulnerable students. He may have intentionally fostered Griffindor students' dislike as part of his rule, but we don't really see him very nice to anyone, though he tolerates his own house and is necessarily decent to Draco.

Posted by: TheGriff Sep 4 2009, 02:40 PM

Haha simples.
I had a Chemistry teacher (Ironic i know) last year at my college who disliked and bullied me and i have no idea why. It got so bad that i ended up leaving the college and I'm starting at a new one this year.
I've always felt i understood what poor Neville was going through because i've often been bullied by teachers and i also think that this is why, even after i found out how brave and loyal Snape had been in DH, i still do not like him as a character, i only respect, empathise and admire him and the choices he made. I do think he redeemed himself but I do not like bullies and i believe Teachers who bully are the worst.

He obviously saw no greatness in Neville, although we all know he was wrong haha (Nagina definately knows it), and thought he was just lazy and stupid with no ambition. However if he hadn't been so hard on him and destroyed his confidence maybe Neville could have achieved and risen to the occasion sooner.

I do not think that there was any other special connection or reason for Snape's behaviour towards Neville.

Posted by: DocReneau Sep 4 2009, 10:00 PM

I don't think Snape hated Neville. It was just his character to be dismissive of anyone not in Slytherin. We never hear of him having real friends; even Lucius Malfoy does not appear to be friends with Snape. Severus comes from a dysfunctional home and grows up with a sour outlook in life. He has invested all his emotions in his love for Lily. There is no room for anyone else. Snape is a teacher of the old school and students are there to be taught and, at best, tolerated. Or bullied.
Severus Snape is a lonely man who has seen his one true love killed as a result of his actions. He tends to take out his anger at himself on anyone around him.

Posted by: _amanda_ Sep 8 2009, 07:46 AM

I don't think he hated him anymore than he hated anyone else, excluding Harry of course. Snape bullied anyone that wasn't in Slytherin, whether they were a good student (Hermione) or a poor one (Neville).

Posted by: fantasylover12001 Sep 12 2009, 10:56 PM

I think it was just that he frusterated Snape. I think Snape was the kind of man who demanded perfection in things, and Neville with all his clumsiness and inepitude (in Snapes eyes, I personally love Neville) just really grated on him. Him being a Gryffindor did not help matters.

Posted by: Burger Sep 14 2009, 04:33 AM

Neville was just an easy target for Snape to bully. A poor wizard who would not answer back.

Posted by: YLAU Sep 22 2009, 07:04 AM

I agree. I don't think its got anything to do with the prophecy much...

Posted by: sairah Oct 14 2009, 08:43 PM

Really really interesting theory!Ive never thought much into why Snape treated Neville the way he did, or the way he did to any of hid other students[aside from Harry of course]. I always just assumed that he hated everyone. And hated the Gryffindors especially by principle.
...Or maybe the fact that he's still really bitter about Neville's boggart.
lol

Posted by: Bella Longbottom Nov 12 2009, 07:04 PM

I like that theory. It makes quite a lot of sense.
But I also think that Snape just despised him because he was a Gryffindor, because of his friends, his clumsiness and complete lack of talent in potions. Poor Neville.