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Posted by: paint it Black Jun 15 2009, 02:06 AM

Throughout their adventure-filled years at Hogwarts, somehow Harry, Ron and Hermione (not to mention James and Sirius and the Weasley twins) managed to not get expelled, although Harry did have a very close call in OotP. Hagrid was not so lucky: he was expelled after being falsely accused by Tom Riddle of opening the Chamber of Secrets. As Hagrid was an orphan at the time, Dumbledore kindly found a place for him at Hogwarts. Under normal circumstances though, what does life hold for a student who is expelled from Hogwarts? Are they shunned from the wizarding world? Would their wand be destroyed, or would this only happen if they were found guilty of a crime? Would their parents complete their magical education at home, or, if denied the use of a wand, would they have to live out the rest of their lives denied the use of their magical abilities? Would they live their lives as if they were Squibs, aware of the magical world but unable to participate? Or would they enter life in the Muggle world?

Posted by: Wendall Jun 15 2009, 05:08 AM

I'd say the first option would be to go to another wizarding school, like Beauxbatons or Durmstrang, to complete their education. Lucius considered sending Draco to Durmstrang, so I doubt the foreign schools would reject British/Irish students.

I reckon expulsion would only happen in the event of a really serious offence. Mostly it's just used as a threat. Hagrid was expelled for allegedly killing a fellow student. Grindelwald was expelled for experimenting with the dark arts, I think. Grindelwald had received all the schooling he needed, so he didn't really need to join another school. Hagrid had no family to send him or support him in going somewhere else.

So I reckon it would be extremely rare that the expelled student would be shunned by the wizarding world.

As for the wizards wand, it does seem from OOTP that expulsion automatically resulst in the ministry breaking their wand. Harry's "crime" wasn't serious, just using magic in front of a muggle, outside of school, yet his wand was going to be broken. But then what's stopping the wizard just buying a new one?

Posted by: Flora Lovegood Jun 15 2009, 09:06 AM

I agree that transfer to another school would be an option. Many Muggle parents turn to private schools and tutoring for their wayward students. Durmstrang probably wouldn't care if a Hogwarts student had a record I wonder about Magic Homeschooling, though. Surely the Ministry would want to regulate this and keep all minors from practicing outside of school. Perhaps an influential wizarding parent could get permission, but I can imagine the paperwork!
My guess is that expelled wizarding students would face the same obstacles that dropouts do in our society- few job options, low self-esteem, possible shunning by peers and authorities. They may not be quite like Squibs, but would still have magical abilities. This of course, opens them up to a life of crime- illegal magic (which Hagrid is guilty of), firewhiskey habits, maybe even secret gangs. Many would see the Dark side as appealing having been rejected by others.
As far as broken wands, not all magic requires a wand (Potions: "there is little foolish wand-waving here"~SS,8). You probably could not buy one again from Ollivander, but there are other dealers, and probably a thriving black market. I thought that was more of a ritual humiliation than anything. Don't they do something similar to dishonorably discharged soldiers , or break frat paddles upon university expulsion? I remember an old film "Oxford Blues" in which a rower's paddle was broken when he was kicked off the team. It's public humiliation, but not permanent.

Posted by: Laura W Jun 15 2009, 09:45 AM

Hmm. In an interview she gave to the South West News Service on July 8, 2000, JKR was asked (hopefully?) the question: "Can American kids go to Hogwarts?" Her exact response: "No, they have their own school. You'll find out in Book 4. Hogwarts just serves Britain and Ireland."

So, if Hogwarts only takes British kids and no foreign students (American or otherwise) - which we have been told is the case -, I wonder if that rule would also apply to the other wizard schools around the world. Why would Jo allow that school in Brazil we read about in GoF, for example, to take foreign students if Hogwarts isn't allowed to? My guess is that they don't. Unless one thinks that Hogwarts is the only wizard school in the world with that rule about who can attend. It's possible, I suppose; doubtful, but possible.

And yes, of course we all know about Draco Malfoy almost going to Durmstrang. But I always assumed - after reading that quote from Jo - that slippery Lucius would just buy his son's way into that northern East European school. I'm sure the board of governors of Durmstrang Institute would turn a blind eye and conveniently forget their no-foreign-student rule if enough Galleons passed hands. (ha, ha)

Jo has also said that not all magical children in Britain even go to Hogwarts; that that decision is up to the individual parents. (I believe this was in answer to something about whether Stan Shunpike attended the school. He didn't.)

I, too, see those who are expelled from Hogwarts in the same light as children and young adults in our Muggle world who are expelled from school or drop out before graduating from high school. Some get low paying or entry level jobs somewhere where not a lot of skills or qualifications are required. Some of these people will work their way up and do quite well. Others will be Stan Shunpike. (Remember, when Harry thought he was going to be expelled in Chapter Nine of PS, the 11-year-old saw himself as getting a "job" as Hagrid's assistant.)

Or some of these expelled young wizards and witches might join a rock band (wrock, of course - grin) and be as rich and famous as the Weird Sisters.

And Flora Lovegood, my first thought re obtaining illegal wands was also the black market. (smile)




Laura

edited by lw to correct spelling

Posted by: Ginevra86 Jun 15 2009, 09:50 AM

I think that Hagid's wand was broken only because he was convicted of a crime. The twins probably came close to being expelled on a number of occasions for being tricsters and breaking the rules... hardly an offense worth losing magic over. I think the solution would be much the same for magical students as muggle students; if they are expelled it is up to their parents to find alternate sources of education (ie: another school or home schooling) for their expelled children.

Posted by: paint it Black Jun 16 2009, 08:03 AM

It looks like the big deciding factor here is whether or not an expelled student would be allowed to have a wand. Without a wand, they would be unable to continue much of their education, either home schooled or at another school. Without a wand, they would be unable to live a wizard's life as we know it.

When Harry gets his letter from the Ministry telling him that he is expelled and that soon someone would be coming to destroy his wand, his thought is that he will need to go on the run from the law rather than relinquish his wand. Even after he gets the note from Mr. Weasley telling him to stay put, he's tempted to run for it. This suggests to me that his wand is absolutely essential to him, and that it would not be a simple matter for him to obtain another one. Perhaps expelled +/or lawbreaking wizards would get blacklisted at wandmaker's shops, forbidding them from purchasing another one. However, Flora Lovegood makes an excellent point that one could obtain a black market wand, or even one from a member of their family. I remember in DH, Lupin tells the trio that attendance at Hogwarts has become mandatory for all young witches and wizards, where previously parents could choose to homeschool or send their kids abroad for an education. So I think homeschooling might still be an option for an expelled student, if they had a wand. If one were to show up at a new school with a record and an illegally obtained wand, however, I'm not sure if they'd be welcomed.

During Harry's trial at the Ministry, Dumbledore reminds Fudge that the Ministry does not have the right to confiscate a wand unless the charges against the accused have been proven. This might suggest that an expelled student's wand would only be destroyed if they had been proven guilty of a crime. I agree with Wendall that expulsion from Hogwarts seems to be punishment for only the most severe offenses (how else could James and Sirius have made it through? ), but this might in of itself include a violation of the law. So expulsion might essentially include destruction of one's wand, just due to the the fact that it's likely that the incident that got one expelled in the first place was unlawful. Although Harry's crime of performing magic outside of school as an underage wizard wasn't serious, I think Fudge combined this with Harry's performing magic in front of a Muggle (violating the Statute of Secrecy) and brought the whole Wizangamot in to hear the case in an attempt to gather anti-Harry support within the Ministry. Obviously he wanted to bring Harry down, and I think he was going beyond the normal legal procedures to accomplish it.

Posted by: HudMug1712 Jun 16 2009, 08:34 AM

Everyone expelled from Hogwarts has their wand broken
Harry was threatened with this in OOTP

I think that they can buy a new one and join a new school or be taught at home as long as their deed wasnt too bad
Hagrid for instance wasn't allowed a new one and so kept the remains of his original.

i think that if james or sirius had been expelled they wouldve just bought a new wand and attended beauxbatons

Posted by: Laura W Jun 16 2009, 09:17 AM

Yes, you are absolutely right. I looked it up and Lupin did say, "Of course, nearly every witch and wizard in Britain has been educated at Hogwarts, but their parents had the right to teach them at home or send them abroad if they preferred."

I guess Jo changed her mind between the time she made that quote to the media in July 2000 - re Americans not being able to go to Hogwarts; the school "only serving" English and Irish students - and between the time she was writing DH in 2006 (completed in Jan. 2007). Or she just forgot that she had made that stipulation six years previously. Either way, if she changed her mind about this or if she just forgot and had her own character Remus Lupin contradict her own quote, it still remains a fact that all the students we meet at Hogwarts are British - except I now happily and fondly think of that real-life Canadian child, Natalie McDonald, who JKR sorted into Gryffindor in GoF, as actually being a little Canadian witch whose parents chose to have her educated in England, instead of Natalie as being British herself (ie - if nobody but UK children could go to Hogwarts) - and all the students from Beauxbaton are French and all the Durmstrang students we see who come to Hogwarts in GoF are from Eastern Europe.

Maybe, though, each of those schools do have a few foreign students attending them; we are just not told of any at Hogwarts in all seven books, or of anyone non-British who ever attended Hogwarts (ie - in Harry's time or the Marauders' time or in Tom Riddle's time), in seven books we are just not told of any British witches or wizards who did attended a foreign school. They exist, but we do not see nor hear specifically of them.

Quite frankly, I think Jo having Lupin say what he did in DH was a Flint, but there is no denying he said it. So we do know that parents in the British WW can send their kids abroad to be educated - assuming the children get accepted into the French or Brazilian or one of the African schools, and that the parents can pay the fees (at the university in the city where I live, there is a significantly elevated fee for foreign students) - for whatever reason.

On the other hand ... were a child or young adult expelled from one wizarding school for being such a troublemaker that he or she could not stay at that school or for committing such a crime against the WW that he or she had to leave school, i just wonder how welcome she or he would be at another wizarding school in Sweden or wherever. (shrug)





Laura



"Harry hurriedly pointed out a large group of teenagers whom he had never seen before.
'Who d'you reckon they are?' he said. 'They don't go to Hogwarts, do they?'
' 'Spect they go to some foreign school,' said Ron. 'I know there are others, never met anyone who went to one though.' "

- Goblet of Fire (Chapter Seven)

Posted by: paint it Black Jun 16 2009, 10:50 AM

It's hard to know if he was threatened with this because he was to be expelled, or because he was being accused of breaking two laws by having done the Patronus Charm (underage magic outside of school and performing magic in the presence of a Muggle). We don't have many other cases of an expelled student to compare this to.


Maybe it's not a contradiction; there is a possibility that Hogwarts is exclusive in having a policy of not admitting foreigners, as Laura W suggested in a previous post. Maybe not even exclusive; perhaps some schools admit foreigners and some do not. All through GoF, while students are visiting from Beauxbatons and Durmstrang, we do not hear any talk between the students of possibly switching schools. I remember Hermione specifically saying that Viktor liked it better at Hogwarts than at Durmstrang (though Viktor could just have been chatting her up... ), but (to Ron's relief, no doubt) there was never a suggestion that he might possibly switch schools.


I tend to agree.

Posted by: roonwit Jun 16 2009, 01:31 PM

I don't think this is necessarily true. At the hearing Dumbledore makes clear that whereas the Ministry have the power to confiscate wands (once charges have been successfully proven) they don't have the power to expel students from Hogwarts. So although explusion and the breaking of a wand might often happen together, since something serious enough for one is probably serious enough for the other, they can't be directly linked because the decisions to expel someone or break a wand are taken by different people.

Posted by: Kay Jun 24 2009, 05:34 AM

I think its posible Jo just said no, Becasue the person may have seemed to believe that Hogwarts was the only wizarding school and therefore she may have simply been hinting that they would go to their own school in America.

I also dont theink they automotcially break your wand if you're expelled fomr Hogwarts only if the reason you did it was something as bad as what they acused Hagrid of.
With Harry they were really only gunning to break his wand because Fudge wanted to get rid of him and discredit him. I dont they would normally break a person's wand over underage wizardry, becasue that would make it pretty much imposible to learn magic even at home.

Didn't Jo mention in DH that when a wizard attempts to ignore their magic and doesnt learn how to channel it properly it expoldes out of them periodically making them even more dangerious? So it seems to me that they most likely, they just kick them out of Hogwarts forcing them to go to another school or be homeschooled. But they need a wand in order to learn so I dont think they would break their wand automatically.

just my two cents

Posted by: paint it Black Jun 24 2009, 07:35 AM

That's an excellent point, Kay! That makes me think that it's even more likely that Dumbledore made sure that Hagrid had his "pink umbrella" after he was expelled. Sadly, Dumbledore above all would know what it was like for someone to be denied the ability to use their magic.

I am leaning toward the theory that only lawbreakers have their wand broken, and not expelled students (unless they are also lawbreakers). Perhaps the Ministry figures that lawbreakers shouldn't need a wand in Azkaban....

Posted by: sairah Oct 14 2009, 09:01 PM

Life of a muggle I suppose.
Or maybe you can just transfer to another wizarding school [Im sure Hogwarts, Durmstrang, and Beauxbaton are not the only magic schools that you can attend.]