Printable Version of Topic

Posted by: Pyxis Jul 30 2008, 08:30 PM

To Kill a Mockingbird is set in the 1930's, during the Great Depression in the United States. This period of economic downturn started approximately 1929, and ended with the beginning of WWII in 1939. Mockingbird is sprinkled with references to the culture of the times, and we thought this thread would be nice to ask questions, and allow anyone who has time to research the answer to share what was discovered.

Some questions to start with:

* What was the 'Battle of the Hastings'?
* What is a Hoover cart?
* A short explanation of the WPA
* It is said that Lee based her plot on the 'Scottsboro Case'...what are the facts of this prosecution?

Feel free to share your research and ask your own questions!

By the way, a 'scuppernong' is a type of grape native to the southeastern U.S. They have a thick skin and seeds, and grow in clusters, getting about 1-1 1/2 inches round. They have a sugar content of about 18-25%, I can't tell how sweet that would be, but it doesn't sound very sweet.

Posted by: weaselyfan Aug 9 2008, 07:55 PM

There is a web site that has an explanation of this, the scottsboro trial has its own web site, even. it was a trial of several young black men who were accused (falsely) of rape and convicted with basically no evidence, several of the men were later exonerated (sp).

a scuppernong, i believe is a type of berry. there is a web site that explains all of this designed specifically for to kill a mockingbird, i have it at school, but i can't remember the name of it, i will have to look it up. the wpa was one of the work programs rooselevelt created to get the country out of the depression (Maycomb had recently been told it had nothing to fear...)

the battle of hastings was a battle in the revolutionary war (i think...) being a symbol that old roots were very important to Maycomb society and the society of the deep south at the time.

i teach this book, by the way

Posted by: VoodooPadfoot Aug 9 2008, 08:28 PM

* What was the 'Battle of the Hastings'?
This is the only one I can answer in great detail, being the history geek that I am. THe Battle of Hastings is the famous battle in 1066 between Harold Good-somthingorother and WIlliam the Conquerer. It was the last ever time that Britain was successfully invaded and William and his french armies from Normandy beat the Brits (actually Saxons) into submission (hence his name... the french don't really go for originality!)
But yes, if you had been educated history in any primary school in the British Isles you'd have been taught about that battle about ten times!

Posted by: ravenclawgirl34 Aug 9 2008, 09:48 PM

The Battle of Hastings was between King Harold Godwinson of England, and Duke William (the Conqueror) of Normandy in 1066. Harold had been king only a short while, and he had been crowned under Hailey's comet, which was considered a sign of doom by all who knew of such things. He had pledged to uphold William's right to the throne before King Alfred died, but later reneged on that pledge (the pledge was given while he was a "guest"-read prisoner-of William, and therefore he felt that it was not legally binding or something).

Harold had a turbulent rule, and because he was busy putting down rebellions/invasions, one from his own brother, Tostig, and he and his army were dead tired for the Battle of Hastings, having just marched in from near Scotland, while William and co. were well rested and fed. William also had the advantage of cavalry and the newly developed stirrups, which gave the French a decided advantage over the English infantry. All this is recorded on the Bayeux Tapestry, a very very long tapestry that is housed in... northern France somewhere.

After the Battle of Hastings, William took charge, and, during the... restructuring phase of his rule, he had the Domesday Book created, which listed all the transfers of land from the Saxon nobles to the Norman nobles so that he knew who had land and how much, for tax purposes. This is probably where Maycomb's residents traced their ancestors to.

All info in post is courtesy of my 12th grade British Lit class, and my amazing teacher, who practically invented the English language. Any inaccuracies are mine, and probably the result of 3 months summer break and lack of sleep.

Posted by: Dreamteam Aug 10 2008, 02:10 AM

Weasleyfan, I'm so glad you're here because I have more questions

For instance what are *'druthers*? Its used a couple of times, for instance when Scout is telling Atticus what Mrs Dubose had said to them and he replies "Of course, I'd rather she'd have said it to me than to either of you, but we can't always have our 'druthers". I gather he means that we can't always have what we want but I just wondered what the word actually means, I can't think of a word that's been abbreviated to produce that.

When Jem decides to go back to the Radley house and get his pants he waits until Atticus is asleep. When he gets out of bed he says to Scout "Sleep, Little Three-Eyes?" and I'd love to know what that means, is it from a song, a story ...?

The Battle of Hastings (1066) is famous in English history (I'm English) as the invasion of Saxon England by the Normans and the defeat of King Harold by William the Conqueror and completely changed the course of our history, having effects that last even until today, but why is it significant in To Kill a Mockingbird? Why did Scout say it was a "source of shame to some members of the family that we had no recorded ancestors on either side of the Battle of Hastings"?

I have more but I'll leave it there for now

Posted by: StepInTime Aug 10 2008, 08:05 AM

Dreamteam, let me bring my growing-up-in-Alabama experience to bear on 'druthers and start by saying that you're on the right track! Some people pronounce the word rather as "ruther" (somewhat of a carryover from some of our ancestors' British dialects--not all dialects have this, though)--so 'druthers is a bit of slang to represent the I'd rathers in life, basically your preferences. Your interpretation, then, is spot on!

In that line specifically, Atticus uses both "I'd rather" and " 'druthers" (bolded in the quote above), which is one of the many places in TKAM where Lee uses langauge and Atticus' speech to emphasize that though he is educated, cultured, and well-to-do, he is not at all disparaging of what some might consider less sophisticated culture, traditions, and language. He can "code switch" between the "proper" and the slang, in a respectful way, and one that would be meaningful to his children as well as culturally significant amongst his friends, acquaintances, and clients (and readers, too ).

Posted by: Jett Black Aug 10 2008, 08:45 AM

I too grew up in Alabama, and I've heard 'druthers' used in two different ways. One is simply the running together of 'I'd rather' as in 'I'druther have a Co-Cola'. (Co-Cola is how rural Alabamians pronounced 'Coke-a-Cola'.)

And a scuppernog is a wild grape, specifically of the white-skinned variety. (Muscadines are the purple wild grapes.) Both muscadines and scuppernogs are very nearly spherical, have a thick and slightly rough skin, and rather large seeds. (The skin is slightly bitter as well.) The way most children eat them is to pop the whole thing into your mouth, bite down just enough to break the skin, suck the flesh out, then spit out the seed and skin. There taste is much richer than cultivated grapes, and they seem to be both sweeter and tangier than their domesticated counterparts.

Posted by: twiddlethosedials Aug 10 2008, 09:46 AM

Dreamteam, there even used to be a restaurant (fast food) called Druthers, I assume based on this colloquialism. "I'd druther go to Druthers" was one of their slogans. (Insert eye roll here!)

I haven't seen anybody try "Hoover cart" yet. But I can hazard a guess - and a quick google search! I know that Herbert Hoover got a lot of flack from people during the Depression as being largely responsible for it. He was the Republican president right before FDR was elected to the first of his four record terms. People who were homeless would live together in camps that they dubbed "Hoovervilles," often cobbled together with cardboard or wood or whatever they had on hand to offer some kind of nominal shelter against the weather.

So my guess was that a Hoover cart might be what they use to carry around what they've got left, after they've lost everything. And my good friends at google tell me I'm close. A website for Hoover's home in Iowa quotes Harry Truman as saying a Hoover cart is "the remains of an old Tin Lizzie pulled by a mule, because you couldn't afford to buy a new car and you couldn't afford to buy gas for the old one." I guess I was picturing a shopping cart like our homeless people today might use, but the Hoover cart was more of an improvised buggy to carry people around after they could no longer afford to keep up their car on its own "steam." An alternate version would see farmers abandon the Tin Lizzie altogether and just put the car's rear tires and axles on an existing cart and hitch it up to the mule that way.

There's a lot of debate even today whether Hoover deserved the reputation he got for the blame of the Depression. But it's a reputation that persists. Other presidents who were not well-liked recovered their reputation after they left office, or after their deaths. Hoover, to this day, is more likely to be the butt of a joke. You can learn a lot more about him at the website for http://www.nps.gov/heho/ - and maybe decide for yourself if he really deserved the mocking he got at Hoovervilles and with Hoover carts and other similar things that bore his name. I'll admit I'm still not sure what I think -- but I was surprised to learn how much he did both before and after leaving office to try to help people in trouble.

Posted by: Jett Black Aug 10 2008, 01:37 PM

One of the things which I took for granted growing up was how people's accents identified them as belonging to a particular social class. There was a genteel accent which marked it's speaker as 'old money' - or at least from a family which once had money, even if they could now claim only 'good breeding' (Kevin Spacey did a very impressive 'old money' accent in Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil). There was another accent which was a sort of imitation of this and it seemed to be only used by social climbers and the 'nouveau riche' - that is, by people who were trying to break into the upper social circles or by those who wished to demonstrate that their wealth made them socially acceptable in such circles. (This accent was used by Vivien Leigh in Gone with the Wind.) Other accents could mark you as 'working class' or 'poor white trash'.
There seemed to be a separate social structure for the Black community, and each strata had it's own distinctive style of speech as well.

The differences between the accents were subtle, and TKAM showed that Harper Lee throughly understood the subtleties of the South's caste system. One of the only things I disliked about the movie adaptation was the accents of the actors. (Scout and Jem spoke like 'working-class' natives, but the many of the others seemed a little 'off'.)

Of course, education and experience affected accent; it was always easy to tell who had been in the military, for example. And there were certain professions (minister, doctor, lawyer) who were expected to be able to speak to all of the social classes, and others (politician, salesman) where it was a big advantage.

I really don't know much about the Works Progress Administration; believe it or not it was a bit before my time (I was born in 1962), but a couple of the highways in our area were either created or repaired by the WPA. I seem to remember that some of the men you were young in the 30's 'went off' to work for the WPA, but it was fifteen or twenty years later that the federal government finally made a large economic impact in North Alabama - it was in the late 50's under the auspices of the TVA (Tennessee Valley Authority) that many of the homes in North Alabama had electrical power for the first time.

Posted by: MiriameSarince Aug 10 2008, 08:28 PM

Oh my, I'm so old! The WPA was a federal program in which people worked for the "greater good" (though no one used that slogan!). They built parks and wilderness areas, painted murals, took wonderful photographs and generally performed useful work, paid for by the government. It was a way to get people back to work during the Depression but had the great side-effect of producing a lot of important infra-structure for the USA. All thanks to Roosevelt! TKAMB was written to have taken place at the height of the American Depression. All of the country was suffering from unemployment and poverty but the South (and I live in Alabama) was particularly hard hit, since it was poor even before the Depression.

For those of you who don't know, Harper Lee is still living in Monroeville, Alabama and is one of our state treasures.

Posted by: Dreamteam Aug 11 2008, 07:30 AM

Wow! This is turning into a fascinating thread. Thanks for all the explanations of *'druthers*, it makes perfect sense now. I love to hear different accents, they seem to be sadly in decline as people move around the world more, thankfully though speaking with a regional accent doesn't seem to be the drawback that it used to be, it can even be an advantage (just ask The Beatles lol)

Thanks to twiddlethosedials for the explanation about the Hoover cart, that does sound likely because people would have used whatever was available and putting together a car, or part of a car, that had no fuel with horses to pull it would be a good way to move things around.

I'd also wondered about scuppernongs. I'd thought maybe they were apples, here in England picking up apples that have fallen from the trees and are just lying on the ground is called scrumping and it sounded a little similar, OK not much similar I admit lol, but grapes hadn't occurred to me.

Can anyone throw any light on "Sleep, Little Three-Eyes?" that Jem asks Scout, and why is it shameful not to have ancestors from either side of the Battle of Hastings?

Posted by: FredFan Aug 11 2008, 10:18 AM

Dreamteam, I hate it when you make me work! I did an advanced search on Google and discovered that "sleep little three-eyes" is a reference to a fable by Edward Lang called "Little One-Eye, Little Two-Eyes and Little Three-Eyes found in The Green Fairy Book.

This is a brief summary of the fable: A woman had three daughters. One had an eye in the middle of her forehead (Little One-Eye), one had two normal eyes (Little Two-Eyes) and the third had two normal eyes with the third in the middle of her forehead (Little Three-Eyes). Little Two-Eyes was treated badly by her family for being normal and was only fed leftovers from the meals. One day while tending their goat a woman appeared and asked her why she was crying. When she explained her predicament, the woman told her some magical words to say to the goat and a table would appear with food on it so she could eat. Afterward, she would say magical words to make the table and food disappear.

Finally, the sisters realized something was wrong when they noticed Little Two-Eyes taking her scraps out to feed the goat. Little One-Eye went out to discover what was going on, but Little Two-Eyes sang a song to make her sleep. Her mother then had Little Three-Eyes follow her. Little Two-Eyes sang another song but only made two of the eyes sleep, while the third eye was closed but only resting. She was able to tell her mother what was happening and Little Two-Eyes got into some big trouble for thinking she was better than the rest of her family.

I'll forego the rest of the fable that can be found on Wikipeda. I suspect the term "Little Three-Eyes" is used because Jem knows Scout can't settle down for a good night's sleep because her third (or inner) eye is figuratively spinning from all the excitement from the night's activities. I'll let others more versed in chakras and alchemy discuss this further if they are so inclined.

Posted by: rowena r Aug 11 2008, 11:46 AM

Wow ! So many of the questions I wanted to ask have already been asked and answered. There's this one I wanted to know though, being a food-lover : What exactly is a 'Lane' cake as made famous by Miss Maudie ? Is it something like a Battenburg cake or something ? I mean, is it real or is is just Miss Maudie's special recipe ? Sorry, I am lazy and didn't want to google it and sift through the results and am taking the easy way out.

Posted by: Dreamteam Aug 11 2008, 04:31 PM

FredFan you know its my mission to keep you occupied and out of mischief, oh OK, out of mischief is too much to ask, you'll have to settle for occupied

Yeah, that would fit, that Scout was never going to go to sleep while she was worrying about Jem going out to, as far as she's concerned, risk his life by going back to the Radley house and its a nice reference to them having fairy stories read to them rather than just the newspapers or documents that Atticus was reading.

Posted by: weaselyfan Aug 11 2008, 06:44 PM

rowena r-
A lane cake ( i googled this and looked it up last year when i was teaching it, is a yellow cake (heavy on the butter i think) with a filling and garnished with pecans,cocunut and dried fruit, although these may be optional. . i found most of my information at southern coooking web sites. I didn't try to make one, though, i think i have seen them before called christmas cakes in other parts of the country, but am not sure-not the same thing as a christmas cake in Harry Potter, though, i had to look that up. the lane cake is supposed to have originated in alabama,.


i go back to school on wed and will post the web site where i found the cultural stuff after that.

Dreamteam- as for the question, about why it was shameful not to have any ancestors on the battle of hastings-as you see in the rest of the book-family roots, espescially old family roots are very important in the part of the country where they are from and where they are living. scout says it with a bit of dry wit, as atticus is not that impressed with old family roots and all, but it is of cultural significance at this time.espescially since, with the depression, the family name is all some of these families have left, hope i don't sound like a teacher there.

Posted by: rowena r Aug 12 2008, 10:50 AM

Thank you so much for the info weasleyfan ! Like I said, I was not in the mood to google it and you have justified my confidence that Leaky is quite as good.

Another question though : Why is the expression 'bought cotton' used for doing nothing ? Is it because the wealthy didn't do any real work and just made money out of the cotton that the poor workers slaved over ? Or something else entirely ?

Posted by: twiddlethosedials Aug 13 2008, 01:44 PM

"I never knew how old Mr Radley made his living - Jem said he `bought cotton', a polite term for doing nothing - but Mr Radley and his wife had lived there with their two sons as long as anybody could remember."

I'm not sure, but my guess is that it's a throwback to the difference between old money and new money in the South. The workers had to pick cotton, back-breaking labor under a hot, steamy sun. People who had money (like the O'Haras of Gone with the Wind) didn't have to work, and literally bought and sold the cotton. To the laborers in the field (which would have included all colors after the War), this must have seemed like they did nothing at all. I think what Jem really meant was that Old Mr. Radley had old money. Maybe the Radleys' relatives did trace to one side or the other of the Battle of Hastings!

Posted by: coppertopchopperhopper Aug 13 2008, 05:14 PM

my hubby has taken up a global role in his company and is on the phone with Amnerica most evenings till late (we're in the UK)
He's enjoying the challenges of understanding some of their terms...

We think we've worked out what 'He's an empty suit' means is iit like our term 'All mouth and no trousers' ???

but he was told by a superior (the emty suit man) 'I just needed to bust your chops!' Is this a serious matter?

Posted by: Ex Libres Cogito Aug 14 2008, 12:12 AM

Oh does this thread bring back so many memories! And now, I think I believe I understand why those who may not be from the U.S. South are so interested in the book!

(Not in order): I remember picking Muscadine Grapes ("scuppernong") in Pine Mountain, Georgia many years ago. The grapes can be fermented to make wine; or cooked into an incredible Muscidine preserves. Be careful eating them straight, though, as the are very tart if they're not fully ripe.

Batle of Hastings is a generational marker for blood status, and a strong affection for roots to Great Britain. (NOTE: JK Rowling said that Hogwarts was established about 1,000 years ago -- around the Battle of Hastings?)

Hoover Carts were not good things in Southern Alabama during the Depression. Hoover was a Republican, perhaps still synonimous with Reconstruction (Northerners taking control of the decimated and conquered "Confederate South.") It was not polite to discuss people associated with them.

The WPA (Works Progress Administration) of President Franklin D. Roosevelt was the largest agency of the New Deal to employ Depression Era people who were out of work. It eventually became the largest employment base in the U.S. until after World War II.

By the way, do you know how the mockingbird got its name? It can immitate the songs of other birds. Yet it is the State bird of Tennessee, and many other Southern States.

"Druthers" is an easy one. You're forced to do something which you'd rather not do. If you "had your druthers" (could do what you wanted to do) . . .

Jett Black raises and interesting observation: If your host/friend wants to offer you something cool to drink, they might ask if you want a "Co-Cola". If you say "sure," or "thank you," the next question is: What kind of Co-Cola (Coke) do you want? This doesn't refer to Diet Coke, or Coke Zero, or the Classic one. In our region of the U.S., a Coke is a soft drink (generic). Also, Alabama borders Georgia. And "everyone" knows that Atlanta is where the Coca-Cola headquarters is.

Should we be sensitive in addressing regional accents? I think I might have already stepped over some boundaries of generalizations. Very interesting thread. (Maybe JK Rowling chose the Battle of Hastings as a launching point for the Founders of Hogwarts!?)

COTTON: Lazy? Probably a broker on the International Cotton Exchange on Exchange Street in Memphis (Cotton Capital of the World at the time).

Other questions? This has been fun. Thank you.





Lol, no. "Busting one's chops (jaw)" is not literal. It has more to do with getting another person (employee) onto the same wavelength. It is not meant with malice. "Busting one's chops" can also refer to "wasting the other person's time;" but is still not meant in a bitter, or harmful way. Hope this helps.

ELC


edited by Dreamteam to merge two consecutive posts

Posted by: weaselyfan Aug 14 2008, 02:36 PM

bought cotton-means he basically lived off an inheritance-like you said, although the inheritance was probably old and dwindling which is why their "wealth" wasn't obvious, the house was falling down, etc. he didn't really need to work and didn't want to give up control of the house enough, so they scraped by on waht was left over from previous days.

Posted by: Pyxis Aug 14 2008, 05:04 PM

Leaky members are the best! I have learned so much from all of you, thanks for the time you have taken to research some of this stuff. For me, at least, it adds to my appreciation of the book to understand the cultural context.

I pulled out some more references, if anyone has time...

* Where did the custom of spitting in the hand to seal a deal come from?
* In reference to Scout's education, what are Group Dynamics and the Dewey Decimal System?
* When describing Miss Maudie pulling weeds, the author refers to the "Battle of the Marne", what is this battle?
* What is nut-grass?
* Why is chewing gum such a special treat?
* "It hasn't snowed in Maycomb since Appomattox", what is Appomattox?

Posted by: Ex Libres Cogito Aug 14 2008, 06:52 PM

QUOTEAnother question though : Why is the expression 'bought cotton' used for doing nothing ? Is it because the wealthy didn't do any real work and just made money out of the cotton that the poor workers slaved over ? Or something else entirely ? -- bought cotton-means he basically lived off an inheritance-like you said, although the inheritance was probably old and dwindling which is why their "wealth" wasn't obvious, the house was falling down, etc. he didn't really need to work and didn't want to give up control of the house enough, so they scraped by on waht was left over from previous days.

This is truly wonderful!! It is really amazing to guess how people from England might feel when hearing questions from the US about life in the UK (eg. references in Harry Potter).

OK: The World Cotton Market, until about 40 years ago, was actually centered in Memphis. Textiles (cloth) had very few polymeres (polyester, rayon, etc.), not much silk, some wool, leather, and other products. Cotton, however, was KING. It was a tremendous cash crop; bigger in places than tobacco. Compare it to Texas OIL of today.

If you bought and sold futures in cotton, you did work; and you had a lot to gain -- or lose. However, your work was "white-collar" (desk job stuff; lunch meetings, traveling, etc.). The real manual labor was what might be called "blue-collar." It was back-breaking; and very dangerous. Also, the cotton balls were in a "bowl" that when dried are hard and sharp. Without gloves, a person's hand while picking cotton would get raw and cut up. Cotton ripens at the end of the summer; when it is the hottest!

Therefore, the comparison would be more like "work" and "kill yourself to make it another day" type of work. So buying cotton is a polite way of saying that the person didn't really do anything (visible) worthwhile.

SPITTING = BLOOD. A vivid depiction of intent in sealing a deal.

GROUP DYNAMICS = What I do as a social worker. Understand the way society and sub-groups within society function.

DEWEY DECIMAL SYSTEM = Dewey devised a library catalogue system using the numbers 0 - 999. The system was based upon subject matter. Compared to the U.S. Library of Congress catalogueing system, which uses letters and numbers in a very different way.

The FIRST BATTLE OF THE MARNE was a Franko-British victory over Germany during World War I. It was considered a miraculous victory. Keep in mind that this battle took place less than 20 years prior to the setting of TKAMockingbird.

NUT GRASS (lol). If I'm not mistaken, it is a type of long bladed grass. Some people enjoy its "nut shaped" flowers/tubules. Others just call it a persistant weed (reminds me of Devil's Snare).

CHEWING GUM was very expensive, and hard to obtain during the Depression.

APPOMATTOX Courthouse = 25 miles (? km) east of Lynchburg, Virginia. Site of the Confederacy's surrender to the Union by General Robert E. Lee to General Ulysses S. Grant on April 9, 1865 (About 70 years before the setting of this book).

You may need to check the accuracy of these "facts"; but they seem right.

Posted by: luna_sparkle Aug 15 2008, 02:20 PM

I was one such child! When I was eleven we went to France and saw the Bayeaux tapestry of the Battle. It was between William the Conquerer and Harold Godwinson (who was killed when an arrow went through his eye ).

Posted by: ravenclawgirl34 Aug 16 2008, 09:32 AM

I may be stating the obvious here, but when Scout talks about the Dewey Decimal System, she's talking about the new theory of education that the first grade teacher brought with her from college, not the actual Dewey Decimal System. Her info about this new program comes from Jem, who is not always the most reliable source.

Posted by: twiddlethosedials Aug 16 2008, 02:35 PM

Hand spitting to seal a deal is pretty Irish, and the South is full of people with Scottish and Irish ancestry, so my guess is that it's a carry over from the old country. I like ELC's observation about the parallel with blood. Obviously, you couldn't cut your hand on the spot but spitting meant you weren't just serious, you were committed to following through on the agreement.

I grew up in Kentucky, where the annual horse sales are a serious big business. I asked an Irish horse buyer one year what the deal was with the hand-spit-shake, and he told me the tradition was to spit and then actually "slap" hands rather than to shake in order to seal the deal when buying a horse. He had no idea why, just that that's what you did to seal the deal!

Posted by: rowena r Aug 21 2008, 12:14 PM

Thanks so much twiddlethosedials, weaselyfan and ELC for your explanations of the 'bought cotton' terminology.

Another question : What exactly are 'cooties' ?

Posted by: momwitch Aug 21 2008, 12:55 PM

The way I understand it, Rowena...you might not want to hear this...

Head Lice

Posted by: twiddlethosedials Aug 21 2008, 03:36 PM

Yep! Head lice... although children all over still give each other the "cootie" shot to ward off some imaginary yuck factor. I doubt most kids realize that's where "cooties" started. But I remember as a kid being convinced that all boys had cooties and that I needed my cootie shot lest one accidentally bump into me on the playground.

Posted by: rowena r Aug 23 2008, 11:52 AM

Thanks guys ! I thought it'd be something pretty ghastly, and I was proven right.
But arising from this, what is a 'cootie shot' ?

Posted by: ravenclawgirl34 Aug 23 2008, 02:57 PM

If I remember rightly, the version that we had at my school was to draw a circle on someone's arm, and pretend like you're giving them a shot. It protects you from the 'cooties' that the boys had. Of course, they weren't actual cooties (in most cases), but just boy-ness in general. Unsurprisingly, the cootie shot dies away once kids reach about 6th grade.

Posted by: Pyxis Aug 23 2008, 04:44 PM

I remember the 'cootie shot'! It was a childish form of protection from the supposed ickiness of boys. Hmmm..perhaps I need a booster...

One thing I loved about Mockingbird was the tone of the language. The use of the formal language 'Sir', 'Miss', and 'Ma'am' sounded so respectful in this day of children addressing adults by their first name. Is it still the custom in the South to use that form of formal address?

Some more cultural references:

* Mardi Gras in Alabama? I thought that was strictly a Louisiana thing.
* What is 'asafoetida'?
* Can anyone find an image of Hunt's 'Light of the World' print that was hung in the First Purchase church? What is a rotogravure print?
* What is a 'bootlegger'?
* What is a 'Rice Christian'?
* Amanuensis Club?
* Shinny?
* Does anyone want to explain 'snipe hunt'?
* What is Nehi Cola?
* Is 'frog-sticking' really as violent as it sounds?

I also think it is very funny that I don't have to post a question about mandrake roots, since we all know what those are!

Posted by: momwitch Aug 23 2008, 05:14 PM

It is alive and well! lol Let me tell you the first time I was called 'Ma'am', I looked around wondering who was being spoken to! I get called Miss "momwitch" from children who know me well and have been raised in the South, as most familiar, older females do. The more formal Mrs 'dadwitch' is used by those who aren't in my social circle, or by classmates in my childrens' schools who haven't been to my home.

someone who sold their home-made or illegal alcohol, especially during Prohibition.
it isn't a very flattering term...http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=608252 is a brief overview (not Wiki )
moonshine, ie. an illegal/unlicensed home-made alcohol, often has a very high alcohol content

Posted by: Dreamteam Aug 23 2008, 06:22 PM

I Googled "Light of the World" and found it http://www.ofspiritandsoul.com/images/aura/Light-ofthe-World-by-Willia.jpg

Some things I'd wondered about were:

• Jitney Jungle - Miss Stephanie says that's where she's going when the court case starts and Miss Maudie asks her where she's going
• what is a roly-poly that found its way into the Scout's room one night and she almost killed it until Jem stopped her because he said it wasn't doing her any harm - clear symbolism of what was happening to Tom Robinson there but I just wondered what sort of creature it is, I'm assuming an insect of some sort
• what is "taffy-pulling", thanks to Pyxis I know what taffy is but how is it pulled and why?

Posted by: wordsaremagic Aug 23 2008, 08:44 PM

Ah--a candy-pull. It's an almost forgotten social custom, a kind of party for young people, especially in rural areas of America. Taffy is made mostly of a sugar syrup boiled until it is very thick. Then it is poured into flat plates or saucers to cool. If allowed to cool undisturbed, it would be as hard as a rock, but while it is still hot, just cool enough to handle, two people pick it up and begin stretching it, pulling it, and folding it over and over as it cools. This process makes the candy chewy and puffy rather than rock hard.

A taffy-pull or candy-pull was a kind of party where all the local kids in an area would get together with only moderate adult supervision. Having a young man and a young woman to pull candy together wouldn't exactly be called romantic, but it was a way of getting them to face each other and talk while having something other than each other to look at (the candy is always soft while hot and may slip to the floor).

Mark Twain describes a humorous event that took place during a candy pull in a sketch in his Autobigraphy, usually called Jim Wolf and the Tom cats. The autobiography can be found online in many books, including google books. It is a masterpiece of pacing the delivery of a story, building to the climax with just enough pauses to keep the audience on edge.

I am not quite as old as Mark Twain, but I can say that I am old enough to have attended a couple of old fashioned Taffy-Pulls as a teenager.
----

About the size of the eraser on a pencil
-----------
I believe Jitney Jungle in this case refers to a chain of grocery stores--bought out by Winn-Dixie.

Posted by: twiddlethosedials Aug 23 2008, 08:50 PM

Mardi Gras is a mostly Louisiana thing, but the surrounding states (which include Alabama and Mississippi's Gulf Coasts) also have some Cajun and French roots, which is where it comes from.

A bootlegger is someone who sneaks shinny into your dry county to sell it. Much like during the Civil War, bootleggers smuggled dresses and other goods that couldn't be shipped past the blockade into the South.

A snipe hunt is something you take someone on to get them good in a joke. You tell them you're hunting snipe, but there's no such thing - all you're really doing is making them look like the Yankee they are, because if they were worth anything at all, they'd know you were pulling their leg. There's usually a practical joke involved.

Nehi Cola is a flavored soda you can still buy in West Virginia. If you watched "MASH," Radar was always talking about the Nehi soda he missed from back home. I've only ever see Grape and Peach flavor, but it's a lot harder to find these days than it used to be.





A roly-poly is also known as a potato bug or a pill bug. I found a picture http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://pics.davesgarden.com/pics/Magpye_1153951453_503.jpg&imgrefurl=http://davesgarden.com/guides/bf/showimage/271/&h=632&w=800&sz=125&hl=en&start=1&um=1&usg=__g8L801dGhnQUblsYYLncng2DIng=&tbnid=w_HH0E6SjZrGKM:&tbnh=113&tbnw=143&prev=/images%3Fq%3Droly-poly%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US%3a%6ffficial%26sa%3DN. I don't know if you get them across the pond, but they must be pretty native to most of the states, because I've encountered them in the South, the mid-Atlantic and now the intermountain West.

You have to pull taffy in order to make it taffy. So if you're making your own at home, you butter up your hands and you and a friend stretch it over and over to get it to the right consistency. If you go to a candy store, you can usually see a machine that does this by rotating two arms that stretch the taffy without you burning your hands!

Posted by: Scarlettred Aug 23 2008, 09:53 PM

Nehi comes in Grape, Peach and Orange. The orange is awful and grape was Rader's fav in Mash.

Amanuensis Club is a like a writer's club, I have not heard that since like forever.

Frog-sticking is violent and frog legs taste like chicken, except you know it is frog and you will yourself to chew and swallow.

Anyone who was lucky to be hired by the WPA in the depression was very lucky. Most of your state parks and monuments and highways were built by WPA workers.

Asafoetida is an herb with a garlic flavor, similar to leeks - I don't recall that in the book, but my family called it stinking gum and used it as fish bait. It looks like dill on the top, but with yellow tops. I only learned the real name when I started studying the latin names.

In my day (born in 1960) you did not call any elder by their first name until given permission. They were always addressed as Mr and Mrs. And a good mannered person raised in the South will always say Yes sir and No ma'm. This is getting rarer as more generations allow their kids to tell them no. Which I would never even dared to think as a child.

One other thing, that I think important that is only been briefly mentioned. Harper did allude to the 'caste' thinking that most old breed Southerners maintained. Along with our peculiar abit of recording events by 'time'.

That is the basis for the 'it has not snowed in Maycomb...' as it is a way of marking time. My family was famous for statements like that . .my aunt always kept kerosene in a old heater cause she constantly worried each winter they would have another winter like 1952. (and that Appomatox reference was the Battle of such in the Civil War)

And the "ancestors in hasting" analogy would be similar to a Yankee being proud they came over on the Mayflower.

Posted by: StepInTime Aug 23 2008, 10:02 PM

Mobile, Alabama (pronounced mo-BEEL or sometimes MO-beel--not MO-bile or MO-buhl) was the first capital of the French territory in the U.S. The Mardi Gras celebration of Mobile is the oldest in the U.S., and predates the first New Orleans celebration by a decade or two (I think). And let me tell you--it is still a big hairy deal! There are some sirius balls and such that are part of the Mobile celebration; there's plenty of the risque' and vulgar and such that New Orleans' celebrations are known for, too, but for grandeur and pomp, you cannot beat Mobile's Mardi Gras. For example, the only white-tail-and-tie event (more fussy even than black-tail-and-tie) that my brother has ever attended was a Mardi Gras ball in Mobile (a father of a friend of his is a member of one of the Mardi Gras mystic societies). So, particularly in southern Alabama (fyi, also called lower Alabama ), Mardi Gras has a bit of a different implication than might be found elsewhere. A bit more genteel, if you will...

Posted by: wordsaremagic Aug 24 2008, 05:34 PM

I remember Nehi coming in a wide range of flavors.

My father was born in a half-soddy on the Oklahoma prairie only about a decade after Oklahoma became a state. He told me that when he was a small boy people believed that asafoetida (which he pronounced "ass-uh-FID-it-ee") was used by people to ward off illness and evil spirits. It was stuffed tightly into a small cloth bag and worn around the neck. He used to laugh about it, saying that it really worked because if you wore that thing no one would come anywhere near you.

Oh, a "soddy" is a house made of squares of prairie sod (grass and soil) stacked like bricks. It is a bit like unbaked clay. Trees were scarce on the prairie and folks used whatever was available.

I have a single glass, a cheaply made water goblet, that was given to my grandmother as a wedding present. I often reflect how much a thing like that meant to a woman living in a mud house without running water or electricty (or even neighbors).

Posted by: blue4t Aug 24 2008, 06:11 PM

I've spent my entire life in the southeastern portion of the US and I love reading something that is from my culture. Of course, this is a little more country than what I'm use to, but I understand pretty much everything in it. I guess it is like someone from England reading Harry Potter. To me, I have all these questions about the slang and they understand it fine.

Posted by: Ex Libres Cogito Aug 24 2008, 08:42 PM

There was a post recently that touched on the grocery chains of the area. Does anyone remember the old Ben Franklins; or know the story of how Sam Walton bought them up; beginning the super-mega-retailer Wal*Mart? Btw, is there Walmart in the UK? (I know, it's a naive question)

Posted by: wordsaremagic Aug 24 2008, 09:18 PM

I used to live about 16 or 17 miles from Bentonville, Arkansas, where Sam Walton opened his first store. It wasn't a Walmart, but a regular old fashioned department store on the town square. His "new" store opened just south of there in Rogers, Arkansas. I went to Junior High School in Rogers for a semester before moving a little to the North to a farm just outside of the thriving metropolis of Pea Ridge Arkansas (site of a rather vicious Civil War battle).

Walton was considered my most folks to be a bit of an eccentric (that's the polite term). But there is no doubt he has changed the nature of modern retail.

The culture in that area of Arkansas was not greatly different from that in TKAM, except possibly more racist. There were very few non-white people in the area and the local Ku Klux Klan liked it that way. Once, after I told a local member what I thought of his racism, I received a clear message: a bullet whizzed by about five feet over my head, fired from a long distance. I don't think he was trying to hit me, just scare me. It worked, of course. I was scared. Fear, however, is not a good long term persuader. The rhetorical principle is "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." But the area also had many of the good qualities we see in TKAM, people of compassion and courage.

Posted by: Ex Libres Cogito Aug 24 2008, 10:00 PM

WordsAreMagic, I believe you and others familiar with the culture of (maybe different parts of) the Depression Years South, and how over time it has changed, may be at an advantage over forum readers and posters not familiar with the area.

Separate entrances. Police brutality. Church/Synagogue burnings. Murders.

I had cousins in St. Louis, Missouri, who considered us to be from a different world. Keep in mind the role the state of Missouri had in the early beginnings of the Civil War. Not to mention President General Ulysses (S.) Grant was from the state; as was President Harry S. Truman.

But my experience was really quite different. I was a child during Vietnam (yes I'm a little bit younger). Desegregation had begun.

Yet people by and large treated each other as people. "Yes, sir" and "Yes, Ma'am" were said to any adult, regardless of race, by both children and adults. I remember driving through Montgomery, Alabama, on the way to Florida. It did feel different. But not so different.

One more thing: August 2005, Hurricanes Katrina and Rita ripped through the Southern states of Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, and into Tennessee (Tropical Storm). I live over 400 miles north of New Orleans, Louisianna. Our computer server was blown out by the bands of Katrina. We saw convoys of trucks down I-55 into Mississippi. Everyone did what they could to help -- regardless of RACE or anything. President Bush declared these states, as well as Texas, Arkansas, Florida, and maybe others as Federal Disaster Areas. 90,000 Square Miles. We couldn't fathom what that meant until someone told me that is about the size of The U.K.!!

This is why I'd like to know what images people from the UK have of the South, from the book, and otherwise.

Posted by: Dreamteam Aug 25 2008, 08:52 AM

Thanks for the explanation of taffy-pulling. Here in the UK seaside resorts sell "rock" which is a hard boiled sweet/candy and sometimes you can watch it being made and that involves people or machines pulling it into long ropes, then twisting and folding before pulling it out again so I imagine its the same sort of thing, except it still finishes up rock-hard, not chewy like taffy.

I'd like to say thanks for the roly-poly pictures but yuk lol. We do have those in the UK, here we call them wood lice or hardbacks, they crop up in OoTP when they're being fed to the Bowtruckles in their first CoMC lesson.

twiddlethosedials, I don't think a snipe hunt would work here because we do have snipe, they're birds http://www.birding.in/images/Birds/common_snipe.jpg, http://sdakotabirds.com/species_photos/photos/wilsons_snipe_1.jpg, and there are a few more varieties. I do know the sort of hunt you mean though, people starting their first job are common victims, they're sent to someone for a "long weight", the other person usually knows what they mean and after the victim has been there for a while they say, "well, you've had your long wait, you'd better get back to work", or they're sent for a glass hammer, a box of sparks for the spark plugs, striped paint etc.

We don't have Wal-Mart shops but they bought out one of our supermarkets, Asda, about ten years ago and they still trade under the Asda name but everyone knows its really Wal-Mart lol.

Posted by: Perenelle Aug 26 2008, 01:19 PM

As someone who moved from the UK to the Southern US last year, I find all these questions and answers really interesting. Most of them I didn't know but some things I've picked up, and I've seen taffy being pulled!

In Kent we call them cheesy-bugs! I haven't heard anyone who grew up more than 20-30 miles from where I did call them that, but from Scout's description I guessed it was probably those!

Posted by: Ex Libres Cogito Aug 26 2008, 10:51 PM

The "Gossiping" references remind me of our own metaphor used to describe its effects. Do you know the sticky, smelly strips of paper that people hung around kitchen drains to get rid of fruit flies and other flying pests? It was called "Fly-Paper." There was even a song about it, which went something like this: Fly paper, fly paper ooye, gooye, goo; Fly paper, fly paper -- it will stick to you (with verses & refrain). I know it sounds "childish;" but it was a kids' way of teaching other children not to talk badly about other people.

Posted by: Kneazly Sep 1 2008, 03:53 PM

The kind of taffy that is pulled is just like what British English speakers call toffee, especially the kind like Thornton's (a British candy shop) sell. It's not like rock at all. I remember making it with my mother at Christmas sometimes. Yummy, and when you're a kid, what could be better than covering your hands in butter and sugar!

Posted by: Dreamteam Sep 2 2008, 05:11 AM

I've eaten taffy (thanks to Pyxis) so I know the sort of texture it has and you're right it is very similar to toffee in texture but I think its quite a bit sweeter. When I mentioned the rock being pulled and twisted I was just referring to the method of pulling it out in long ropes and twisting to mix it which I've seen done by hand and also by machine.

I wondered why the graves of people who "rested uneasily" were "guarded" by lightning rods and what is meant here by "rested uneasily" - does it mean suicides, people who didn't go to church, people who had committed some crime, either in the sense of breaking the law or just going against society's trend, or something else?

Posted by: Pyxis Sep 3 2008, 09:03 AM

I have never seen a grave guarded by lightning rods. Do you have the quote from the book handy?

Posted by: Scarlettred Sep 3 2008, 01:38 PM

I am born and breed Southerner but never heard the Lightning rod in cemetaries thing, before. I have heard the phrase, "rested uneasily" in historical terms before and it typically means anyone who died an unnatural death, i.e. sucicide, homicide, etc. My father used it a couple of times when describing fallen veterans from Pearl Harbor.

Curiosity got the best of me...

it is in part 2, chapter 12 - (at the risk of breaking copywrite law . . )
"TThe churchyard was brick-hard clay, as was the cemetery beside it.
If someone died during a dry spell, the body was covered with chunks
of ice until rain softened the earth. A few graves in the cemetery
were marked with crumbling tombstones; newer ones were outlined with
brightly colored glass and broken Coca-Cola bottles. Lightning rods
guarding some graves denoted dead who rested uneasily; stumps of
burned-out candles stood at the heads of infant graves. It was a happy
cemetery. hurchyard was brick-hard clay, as was the cemetery beside it.
If someone died during a dry spell, the body was covered with chunks
of ice until rain softened the earth. A few graves in the cemetery
were marked with crumbling tombstones; newer ones were outlined with
brightly colored glass and broken Coca-Cola bottles. Lightning rods
guarding some graves denoted dead who rested uneasily; stumps of
burned-out candles stood at the heads of infant graves. It was a happy
cemetery."

Mmm, once again I have never seen this in any old cemetary. Maybe someone in the Mobile/NOLA might have something.

My best guess, being witchy and all - is that lightening rods are grounded deep into the earth to discharge electricity into the earth without harm, so I would guess that a belief in using lightning rods over the graves that "rest uneasily" would be to hold the troubled soul/ghost there in the grave and not have them roaming over town, ghosting people like Peesy.

Sounds the most logical to me.

Posted by: Dreamteam Sep 3 2008, 04:27 PM

Thanks Scarlettred, that's exactly the part I was thinking of. I know that in many parts of the world, especially in years past people who had murdered or had committed suicide were not able to be buried in consecrated ground, in Tess of the D'urbervilles Tess is even unable to bury her baby in consecrated ground because he died before being christened. I wondered if the people who "rested uneasily" might be people such as these and that the lightning rods were somehow there to protect them from something - the "wrath of God" or being "taken by the Devil" maybe. Lightning rods in graveyards isn't something I've come across before. I've tried Googling, which is always my first port of call, lol, but that didn't help either.

Posted by: momwitch Sep 3 2008, 05:00 PM

Hmmm...this is interesting!

I remember mentioning in one of these threads last week that the characterization of Boo Radley reminded me a bit of a movie I watched a while ago called Powder. Would you believe that Powder was on cable a few days ago and I watched it? I noticed that a bunch of lightning rods were on the top of Powder's grandparents' house, and that he had elemental powers and attraction to electricity. In the story, (the very beginning so I'm not giving anything really away here) his mother died after being struck by lightning while pregnant with him in a thunder and lightning storm.

Perhaps the practice of lightning rods in cemeteries had something to do with mythological thundergods who threw down bolts of lightning in rage. When the cultures were mixed, unrestful or unblessed graves would attract the "wrath" of God in the new interpretation. The "Old South" is a literal melting pot of traditions, where individual significance is blurred but traditions become fully absorbed within the many and various hybrid cultures that were created.

Posted by: Pleione Sep 3 2008, 06:55 PM

There are still Ben Franklin stores open. I was dragged into one in NC. It's a crafting nightmare.

I was born and raised here in the South and haven't heard of lightening rods in cemeteries. Neither has anyone else in the office--also all Southerners (and older than me).

Pleione, who is decidedly craft-impaired

Posted by: twiddlethosedials Sep 4 2008, 09:51 AM

This might help - http://www.sciway.net/hist/chicora/gravematters-1.html

It's a site describing traditions associated with African-American cemeteries, both before and after the end of slavery. Among the other observations was something about objects placed on and around a grave - and there were a few theories why. One was that they were "offerings," something that meant something to the person under the ground. But another was that the objects were specifically aimed at keeping the person IN the ground. I didn't find anything about lightning rods, but that (coupled with Scarlettred's theory) does seem to fit the idea.

I had the chance a few years ago to visit the grave of Chief Sealth (anglicized into the city of Seattle's name), which was similarly decorated. No lightning rods, but glass bottles, packs of cigarettes, items of clothing, incense - you wouldn't believe the stuff that people had left there on his grave.

Posted by: Ex Libres Cogito Sep 4 2008, 07:20 PM

In Southern Alabama, near the Gulf Coast, (Gulf Shores), the elevation is low, and rather flat. Lightning strikes in this area are common. 19th Century wooden churches, with cemeteries nearby, were often at risk. Therefore (more so for surviving relatives' peace of mind), lightning rods were often set up to absorb possible destructive cloud-to-ground stikes. You may want to take a look at the movie, "Sweet Home Alabama." It will illustrate the vision of the lightning stikes in the region very well.

Hope this helps.

[EDIT]: I would also like to recognize the 100+ people who were killed, and the 2 million people displaced recently by Hurricane Gustav (Catagory 5, at one point) -- A storm that issued from the Atlantic Ocean, through the Carribean Sea, into the Gulf of Mexico, and finally hitting Louisiana (just west of New Orleans); thus losing strength as it wound through Texas, Oklahoma, and Arkansas (still dropping rain on the Mid-South) -- all at the 3rd Anniversary of Hurricane Katrina.