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Posted by: Moose_Starr Jun 11 2008, 04:45 PM

In which we find
*Food, its importance in Hobbit culture, what food and people's attitudes to food and mealtime says about a society.
*Etiquette, and what is the polite thing to say.
*Stereotypes and prejudice, and what is considered normal, thank you very much.

The Hobbits, certainly those of Bilbo's time, were not warfaring people and did not fight among themselfs. Their houses are comfortable and large, with bathrooms, bedrooms, cellars, lots of pantries, whole rooms dedicated to clothes, kitchens and dining rooms. One glance at a Hobbit hole would be a major clue that these guys like to eat well and dress well, but not out of gluttony, for there are multiple rooms in which to share a good meal with guests (and maybe allow them to sleep over if they've eaten a little too much)

They like stable, safe, predictable lifes. they like "to have books filled with things that they already knew, set out fair and square with no contradictions" such as family trees and maps.

The Baggins family was considered very respectable "because they never had any adventures or did anything unexpected; you could tell what a Baggins would say on any question without the bother of asking him".
When Bilbo had his adventure, and did and said unexpected things, he lost the respect of his neighbors.
The Hobbits from the Took side of Bilbo's family would sometimes discreetly disappear and have adventures, and despite the family hushing this up, the Tooks were not considered as respectable as the Baggins family despite the Tooks being richer. That was, until Bilbo had his own adventure there and back again, and was no longer considered with respect. deviating from the safe, predictable norm is not appreciated in Hobbit society.

Even Bilbo, before going there and back again had a poor opinion of adventures and said of the Hobbits "We are plain quiet folk and I have no use for adventures. Nasty disturbing uncomfortable things! Make you late for dinner!"
Food plays an important role in Hobbit culture, it is preferable to An Adventure that could cause you to be late for dinner. Hobbits have first and second breakfast, lunch, tea, dinner, supper and meals to fill in the spaces. They dedicate much time to many meals, which they oftentimes share with others. This shows that they take the time to appreciate good food and good company, and take the time to appreciate the *simple* things in life, not rushing a meal as an inconvenient distraction between jobs. They are laid back easy going folk, enjoying the art of blowing smoke rings, and sharing in each others companionship.

There is also a formal etiquette that extends beyond welcoming guests (even those of the unexpected variety) into your home. It is found not only in Hobbit society but also among the other people that live in Bilbo's world. This should tell us a lot about the peoples of Middle Earth at that time, the elfs and the dwarfs had many greetings and well-wishes, even foes had polite ways of speaking, even if that was just a polite way of saying *I'm going to eat you* but, polite they were, regardless of the actual meaning beneath the formulaic greetings and farewells.
For example the Eagles "'Farewell!' they cried, 'wherever you fare, till your eyries receive you at the journey's end!' That is the polite thing to say among eagles.
'May the wind under your wings bear you where the sun sails and the moon walks' answered Gandalf, who knew the correct reply."

When Bilbo first meets Smaug he speaks in riddles and flatters the dragon because "this of course is the way to talk to dragons, if you dont want to reveal your proper name (which is wise), and dont want to infuriate them by a flat refusal (which is also very wise). No dragon can resist the fascination of riddling talk and of wasting time trying to understand it."

Even in battle there is polite etiquette. 'But who are you that sit in the plain as foes before defended walls?'
This, of course, is the polite and rather old-fashioned language of such occasions, meant simply: 'you have no business here. We are going on, so make way or we shall fight you!'


So what does all this tell us about Hobbits and the world they live in, other than the fact that people with Tookish tendancies are to be avoided and muttered about?
Are there many contradictions in Hobbit society, on the one hand being open and relaxed, ready to welcome a guest and share a meal, but on the other shunning anything (or anyone) that deviates from their established culture?
What is your opinion of Bilbo Baggins, of Hobbits in general, or of the world in which they live?

Posted by: Fricka Jun 14 2008, 07:29 PM

I will discuss briefly what my impression of Bilbo Baggins is, bearing in mind that I may be a bit biased as my hobbit name is Dimple Took.
Like my elder cousin, the esteemed Peregrine Took, many of those in my family have long felt the prejudice from other less adventurous hobbits. It is in deference to some of those sensibilities that we Tooks usually take off on our little trips quietly so as not to cause a stir. As to whether this bias on the part of the other hobbits is hypo--hyo--
hippocritical(Sorry--Tooks don't all spell so great!) I tend to feel that the more traditional hobbits don't really persecute those of us who are different. They don't get into a lot of arguments or fights and then expect us Tooks to come in and save them from their folly. They just like an uncom--inkom--unkomlikated life. It's hard to plan on serving your second lunch just as one of your guests has to leave on an adventoor. We understand this well, as we Tooks like our food just like all the other hobbits do; we just don't mind occasiionally doing something to brake the monotony.
As for what we think of Bilbo Baggins, we are very proud of him and are pleased that he finally let some of the Took side that he got from our esteemd Belladonna, out. Some Tooks even made trips to visit Bilbo when he was staying with the elves, but that is a different story that we don't usually talk about among other hobbit folk. I myself have been tot to ride a pony and made a visit to the elf camp. What fun that was. Of course, if that ever got out, I would not be accepted in most hobbit homes, and since many of them serve very good food, I don't taldk about it much. Anyway, as I said, we Tooks are proud of Bilbo, but don't rub it in to the other tradishional hobbits.

Posted by: Perenelle Jun 16 2008, 03:08 PM

I thought most of the food references were there for humour. Poor Bilbo has to go for so long without eating, and then when he finally gets to eat (e.g. the breakfast with the eagles, or cram) it's usually something he doesn't like. Now this could mean that's he's just fussy and complains a lot, but I actually I think it is showing him out of his comfort zone and illustrating just how unusual it is for someone like him to be in that situation!

Posted by: Cristyn Jun 17 2008, 10:16 AM

I always believed that the hobbit way of life represented something that Tolkien was mourning: ie the rural life of England that was disappearing even then. Simple pleasures, enough food, security, respectability; they seem values that any village would have held dear at one time. The hobbits, as shown in LOTR, however, were a last remnent of a peacetime folk who were living in a isolated and insular community. There are always those who go against the grain, like Bilbo, but although he went "there", he did want to go "back again"!
I think it's hard for us, now, to appreciate how much the world has changed. I for one wish there was more courtesy around - even among foes! You can cut people dead politely, you know!
Cristyn

Posted by: Moose_Starr Jun 17 2008, 11:18 AM

My interpretation of food in The Hobbit is kind of similar to what Cristyn said. So, I didnt see it as mourning lost traditions in rural England but, celebrating the importance of food and values in a society. Hobbits like to have a lot of meals and a lot of guests, and to take time over meals. In my opinion, societies where families have their meals together, taking maybe a couple hours to eat and talk, arent *greedy* or gluttonous but I think it shows a respect for life, friends & family.
In some non-Middle Earth societies, meals are a sandwich or burger eaten in haste, usually alone, maybe in front of the television, or at work without taking a break. It's a fast paced life without taking the time to stop and appreciate the food itself, the chance of sitting with family or friends and sharing in humorous tales or doing the modern-day equivalent of blowing smoke rings.
I think that generally speaking the Hobbits are a society that value the importance of mealtimes and companionship. This is why, maybe, they dont like Adventures too much because they prefer a sedentary secure traditional lifestyle that is laid back & easy going.

Posted by: Pyxis Jun 17 2008, 11:19 AM

That is a really great insight, Cristyn, which is why I love these discussions! I agree with you, I imagined the Shire as kind of a bubble, where bad things only happen in stories, almost a correlation to a protected childhood, in a way. The Hobbits are so innocent as to the really evil things in the world, yet when Bilbo has to face those evil things, he has a reservoir of good memories to sustain him. How often does he reminisce and wish he were "home again", Tolkein always points out that it was "not for the last time".

Posted by: helyx Jun 19 2008, 04:58 PM

I always thought the idea of a second breakfast to be wonderful. You actually should eat more in the morning than you do at night. When I read about Bilbo going into his stock and pulling out cheeses, and cakes, and I think - hey, where is my seat at that table?

Rural life has it's ups, but after dealing with Temper Mental Danish Farmer Clod Chuckers (Mud that has caked hard like a rock, and hurts if you throw it and hit someone). in a small farming community it made me want to throw clods back at them - it's worse than living in the Inner City! There is a sort of stuck in the mud of thought, if it works fine this way then why make any changes - attitude makes you wonder did any of these Hobbits go to school? Exactly where did they learn their manners?

The Country food was great, but even sitting down at the same table with these Farmer Clod Chuckers was at times really difficult to hear about their prejudices about the big World. There also was a hierarchy in the Family - First son was a sort of leader- (bossy man who made horrible processed food! - I used to refer to his product as Sewer Sandwiches). Obviously he did not pick up the Hobbit vibe about good cooking.

I think Tolkien picked up on this that even in an idealist community that the Hobbits could have, they still were over critical - especially about Bilbo, possibly because he had such a beautiful Hobbit Hole to live in. Maybe other Hobbits did not put as much care, or detail, into their living environments, so they wanted to steal what they could from him.

On predjuice I disliked the most is when the Farmers heard someone have some good news, or they went on a trip, they spent two hours picking it apart about how selfish a person like that is, when in fact they wished they could have that type of life. They just vent their hatred in a different manner.

I love the Gardening Aspect of the Hobbit. I liked working in our home garden - not so much the weeding; but even so, when I got used to doing it, made the experience of taking in a basket of fresh picked large tomatoes YOU GREW, Fresh Stalks of Corn you peel and cook, then put butter on, pick pods of green peas (I loved that - POP). and knowing that you grew what you are now eating was an experience I came later to appreciate, but not at the time I was growing up.

I liked picking the fresh fruit from our - Peach, Apricots, Cranberry (which were never picked so I thought they were yucky until I drank Cranberry juice for the first time), and Cherry trees. I liked getting high in the upper branches of our cherry trees. I sold quite a bit a cherries one summer, because I thought it would be a waste to just let them rot. You just have a different experience with food you grow or have made, then if you just buy it.

Posted by: Cristyn Jun 21 2008, 02:16 PM

I agree with you, Moose_Starr, about values and food and time all being linked. For example, I have worked in primary schools for quite some time and the difference in things like table manners are very noticeable. How do children pick these things up if there is no example to follow by watching the adults as you eat together? And if there is no time to do this, then less importance is placed on it in children's minds. Like reading to your children broadens their minds, spending time eating together is education in courtesy.

Cristyn

Posted by: Moose_Starr Jun 23 2008, 06:01 PM

Thinking about education, as Cristyn mentioned, in a broader sense education is noticable in Hobbit society & the cultures of the peoples of Middle Earth in their traditions of songs.
When I was reading The Hobbit I was struck (stricken? whatever lol) I noticed in surprize at how many cultures (the Hobbits, dwarfs, Goblins, elfs, even Lake-Men have a strong tradition of singing. This isnt only for entertainment purposes but to educate about traditions and also to tell stories and history. The earliest song we hear is that of the dwarfs at Bilbo's house. He doesnt listen too much but later realizes that he's been told a story of treasure in a mountain.
The Goblins songs seem more current & of a practical nature, informing the other Goblins & their prisoners of what's going on.
The Lake-Men's songs tell stories and history from ancient times, & even are partly prophetic.
We know that the Hobbits, dwarfs & elfs can write so why the importance of story telling through song? Cultures that dont have a written history (like the Druids) put a lot of importance on songs and story telling because it's the only way to pass down the history of their culture through the generations. Even modern-day druids still learn their history through songs & stories, although I think some are starting to write, too. But, with an advanced system of runes & writing, I was wondering why songs are so predominant in The Hobbit Sure, just because a culture has the ability to write doesnt mean that there shouldnt also be song for non-entertainment purposes but, like with the Lake-Men & the Dwarfs, a lot of the important knowledge is in the songs. And for the knowledge to not be lost from one generation to the next, this relies totally on the song being sung (accurately) to the next generation.

Posted by: ravenclawgirl34 Jun 23 2008, 07:45 PM

I would think that there is such a strong song-tradition because in most of these cultures, with the exception of the Elvish culture, the majority can't read well, or at all. In LOTR, certain hobbity characters... distrust? are wary of? Bilbo, Frodo and Sam because they can read. So, I think it would be a fairly safe assumption to think that, as in the Middle Ages, and, really, up till a century or two ago, that the majority of the population couldn't read, and therefore the main way to learn history, legends, and morals was through song. The exception is, of course, the Elves, but they are so artistic as a group, that it would be more because of the beauty of the song that they learn it, rather than out of necessity.

Posted by: tryston009 Jun 13 2009, 08:44 PM

My thoughts here go back to the huge emphasis Hobbits put on family and community. Hobbits are a very close-knit society. In my mind, passing down history through song wasn't just for the sake of passing down history, but rather it constituted of a community gathering. It was learning through entertainment. Yes, they could write things down and pass them on that way, and they probably did a bit of that, too. But their songs they could share with everyone at one time. It was a way to show creativity and involve the whole community in their endeavors, rather than shutting oneself up in a hobbit hole writing it down.