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Posted by: Shard Feb 11 2007, 07:48 PM

Part 6 of our on going discussion of the Alchemic presscense in Harry Potter story, what it means for the Journey Harry is on.

Previous threads: http://www.leakylounge.com/index.php?showtopic=3074&st=0, http://www.leakylounge.com/index.php?showtopic=19251&st=0, http://www.leakylounge.com/index.php?showtopic=22370&st=0, http://www.leakylounge.com/index.php?showtopic=27368&st=0, and http://www.leakylounge.com/index.php?showtopic=35873&st=0

I wanted to quote MemyselfnI list here:

I will add that we have done pretty well here using the methods of traditional, literalary and new age alchemy together that we have been using since before OotP came out.

I would love to generate a list of things we spoke about that have come true or have become important in the series that have been posted by the wonderful alchemy posters, a few items we looked at before books five and six:

the idea that seven will be important in the series
sirius will die
dumbledore will die
The elements will be important and each house represents an element
We also dissected the four humours and how they relate to the houses (Ron is billious (Bile) Fleur is Phlegm)
harry will end up with ginny
There will be a wedding in the series (chemical wedding (though Bill and Fleur were a suprise!)
the idea of the quintessence and how Harry must balance the four elements (Harry reads Quintessence; A quest in HBP)
We also spoke of the four Hallows in relation ot the grail quest (Quest for gold)

I am not trying to brag, but I am just trying to get at the fact that we have a pretty good track record by embracing all alchemical theories and trying to expand on them or debate them in this thread. (And in the forum as a whole as well!) Have we been wrong? heck yeah! But its been a learning experience that I know I am grateful for!

We have also touched on very specific elements using alchemy that could possibly come true in DH

There will be a baby at the end of the series (and it will be a girl..Her name will use Spohia as its root)
there will be a huge revelation at the wedding itself (Harry will have an epiphany of sorts)
There will be an eclipse during the final book
Harry will die and be reborn (not literally..a symbolic rebirth)
Hagrid who marks the red stage will die



anyone else want to take a stab adding to these two lists?

Posted by: EruditeWitch Feb 11 2007, 08:41 PM

What kind of metaphorical and alchemical significance is there in an eclipse?

I mean, I know there's the obvious, but is there anything else?

Posted by: Shard Feb 11 2007, 08:54 PM

I was thinking in the line of being in spritual Darkness, seeing things fall apart and Voldemort seemingly getting the upperhand. I've seen these kind of moments in other stories where for any amount of time the Hero thinks all is lost and that the villain has won. That's what I think of the Eclipse moment myself, another reason for this is the moment in the PoA movie where DD had said in even the darkest of hours, one only has to remember to turn on the light. He illustrates this by puting out the candle and then relighting it with a simple pass of the hand.

Posted by: memyslfnI Feb 11 2007, 10:21 PM

In many cultures the eclipse forshadows a natural disaster or the death of defeat of a ruler. In alchemy an eclipse is called "sol niger" and there is a beautiful drawing called "the Dark Sun" in the alchemical work called Splendor Solis

http://www.levity.com/alchemy/ss19.html



In ancient egypt an eclipse was thought to be the Eye of Horus. Horus IMHO, is where JKR got the term Horcrux. Horus (the child of the red king Osiris and the White Queen Isis in Egyptian Alchemy) is a symbol for death and ressurection. It is interesting that we learn about Horcruxes from Horace Slughorn.

my thought is that the final battle of Harry and Lord Voldemort will come after or during a solar eclipse. The sun and moon will be equal, in alignment, and will symbolize the downfall of Lord Voldemort

Posted by: galadriel12 Feb 12 2007, 05:39 AM

I agree with EW, I am really impressed by the lists of predictions. Of course we don´t know if the predictions from the second list come true, but already the things from the first list, wow. Brag on people.

A few thoughts:

- the wedding: If I understand it correctly, the alchemical wedding is between the Red King and the White Queen. But, are Bill and Fleur important enough, are they connected enough with Harry and his journey to pass for Red King/White Queen?

- the baby: nice idea. But again, are Bill and Fleur important enough in the Hero´s journey to produce the alchemical child? It would be born at the end anyway and therefore I think it is sufficient to have a baby in the epilogue. Ron and Hermione could be one option for Red King/White Queen as well. We have several references to them as King (Weasley is our King) and Queen (Queen Slug Club), Harry dreaming of both of them as King and Queen.
Is it completely impossible that Harry and Ginny are the Red King and White Queen?

- I know the sibling theory and it never convinced me. Not in the least. Sorry. Apart from that: Having Harry and Hermione facing LV in the end corrupts two 'principles' of JKR´s writing.

First: The trio friendship. Ron and Hermione are equal important sidekicks to Harry, who have contributed equally throughout six books. By the end of HBP, the trio is almost perfectly balanced, IMO. Elevating Hermione to co-heroine status in having her fight LV at Harry´s side, is nullifying this balance JKR has been working on so hard for six books. It destroys the carefully built up trio structure. And where is Ron in that scenario anyway?

Second: The HP books are Harry´s hero journey, not Harry and Hermione´s journey. It has always been Harry alone (as in without his two best friends), who was in the final confrontation with LV in his various shapes (Quirrelmort, Diarymort, Babymort). In PS, CoS, GoF. In PoA and HBP there wasn´t this kind of final confrontation, in OotP Dumbledore was with him when he faced LV.
If JKR is going to break this pattern - I don´t think she will, but let´s assume - it would be all three of them in the final confrontation. We already addressed the special wand core connection of the trio.

Posted by: memyslfnI Feb 12 2007, 10:15 AM

Posted by: mlwl Feb 12 2007, 10:18 AM

I agree, Bill & Fleur in themselves are not important enough to Harry to be THE Quarrelling Couple. However, I have a strong feeling that they do represent that imagery, and while it was already apparent Ron & Hermione were together at the end of HBP (IMHO, of course), I also think that something more significant will happen to draw the two of them together more apparently at that wedding. That days' activities are bound to be "anvil sized" hints, and not just about 'shipping.

Posted by: Weasle Diva Feb 12 2007, 04:09 PM

I think a big flock of dementors all swooped together will make up the eclipse, literally eclipsing a soul.

I think Bill's role is to teach the trio about curse-breaking. He is a background character who will not usurp the trio's role in horcrux locating and breaking. My guess is that Harry will think that the Weasley tiara has horcrux potential. Bill studies the tiara and shows the trio what to look out for.

The Egyptians, as a culture, went to great lengths to provide for an afterlife. Why wouldn't the Egyptian wizards be the first to explore horcrux-making? After all, many people were murdered/sacrificed to be companions to the Pharoah's.

The tiara in the RoR is the real Ravenclaw horcrux, IMHO.

Posted by: memyslfnI Feb 12 2007, 04:41 PM

I like your idea about Bill's role in DH using his skills as a curse breaker!!! Awesome as usual WD!!

Posted by: Lunar Tides Feb 12 2007, 07:58 PM

Hey everyone,

Just a quick disclaimer: I know practically nothing about alchemy, so please excuse any ignorance I show in this thread.

When looking at the pictures of the OOTP movie that came out recently, I noticed the words "potassa carbonate" above Harry's head when he was sitting in Snape's office. After a little research, I found out that potassa carbonate, or more commonly known as potash, is used in making an Angel Stone. The properties of the Angel Stone share quite a bit of similarities with the plot line of OOTP such as anger, out-of-body travel, and the fifth chakra. Here's the link: http://www.rainbowcrystal.com/crystal/gems/angelite.html

Also, I learned about Hermes Trismegistus, supposedly a father figure in Western Alchemy. As Wikipeida states about the man (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermes_Trismegistus) :
"The so-called "Hermetic literature", the Hermetica, is a category of papyri containing spells and induction procedures. In the dialogue called the Asclepius (after the Greek god of healing) the art of imprisoning the souls of demons or of angels in statues with the help of herbs, gems and odors, is described, such that the statue could speak and prophesy."

I would not be suprised if someone already figured this out, but just in case, this could be a big reason why JKR signed her name on the back of a statue of Hermes.

-Lunar Tides

Posted by: becky920 Feb 13 2007, 05:19 AM

Posted by: potterliterati Feb 13 2007, 02:14 PM

Posted by: Lunar Tides Feb 13 2007, 07:08 PM

Thank you becky920 for mentioning the moonstone, I wouldn't be suprised if the moonstone and the angel's stone was one and the same, or if angel's was a type of moon.

Interestingly enough, the moonstone is used in making the Draught of Peace, which helps the user achieve emotional balance. It is ironic that this comes up in OOTP, where Harry's emotions are far from balanced, and maybe Snape was trying to help Harry control himself and succeed at Occlumency (just a maybe for Snape). On a side note, hellebore, an ingredient in the draught, can cause invisibility in its powdered form.

I always thought that the Egyptian references in the books would become important, and since sun worship is central to the culture, an eclipse sounds perfect in the story. I thought it was interesting also that Hermes Trismegistus (see my previous post) is the same as Thoth, who is the god of the moon in Egyptian mythology, so there might be a lunar eclipse.

Oh BTW, I totally support the tiara horcrux idea, since the High Priestess Tarot card has a tiara on, is wearing blue robes, and has a crescent moon underneath her feet.

-Lunar Tides

Posted by: madamros Feb 14 2007, 08:59 AM

Eclipses - there was an solar eclipse visible in Britain from Cornwall and parts of Devon on August 11th 1999, mid morning - happens to be Ginny's birthday and I think the Burrow is in Devon (Ottery St Mary, Otterton and the Tarka Trail are in Devon and JKR went to Exeter University and is familiar with the area). So will there be an eclipse over the Burrow on Ginny's Birthday? Will this also be the date of Bill and Fleur's wedding? After the eclipse, things can only get better! Or can they?

The 'alchemists 'did very well predicting a lot of events though one Severus Snape doesn't seem to have been on the radar! Which is interesting. How's this for a suggestion - Snape as Red King marrying his White Queen? I don't see any of the students getting married anytime soon - they are far too young! Bill and Fleur, yes they are marrying, but they are relatively minor characters. We are going to be finding out a lot more about Snape in book 7, he's more than just the never-changing catalyst, vitriol.

Chakras and books - hpboy13 (or should that be 15 now! ) wrote an essay on the subject which is in the current issue of Scribbulus.

Posted by: memyslfnI Feb 14 2007, 10:32 AM

madamros, I agree there will be more to Snape that his role as vitriol.

we spoke about Snape as vitriol earlier in the last thread and if I remember correctly, at the end of the completion of the process the only thing that is left is salt and a "weak solution of sulfuric acid". That leads me to believe that either Snape will be in a weakened state, (which was why I thought he would be maimed, blinded, etc.) or he will have a "less acidic personality".

Snape has played both sides of the war for far too long to come out smelling like a rose. I think that his acidic personna is part of his charm and if he loses that , it will be a shame. It certainly is part of the storyline, alchemically, as the acid helps break down the "stone" so it can be transfigured into a more perfect state. I am betting on Snape getting his just desserts.

besides, No one kills albus dumbledore and gets away with it! LOL!

Posted by: madamros Feb 14 2007, 11:06 AM

madamros, I agree there will be more to Snape that his role as vitriol.

we spoke about Snape as vitriol earlier in the last thread and if I remember correctly, at the end of the completion of the process the only thing that is left is salt and a "weak solution of sulfuric acid". That leads me to believe that either Snape will be in a weakened state, (which was why I thought he would be maimed, blinded, etc.) or he will have a "less acidic personality".

Snape has played both sides of the war for far too long to come out smelling like a rose. I think that his acidic personna is part of his charm and if he loses that , it will be a shame. It certainly is part of the storyline, alchemically, as the acid helps break down the "ston" so it can be transfigured into a more perfect state. I am betting on Snape getting his just desserts.

besides, No one kills albus dumblefore and gets away with it1 LOL!

Posted by: memyslfnI Feb 14 2007, 12:37 PM

Posted by: EruditeWitch Feb 14 2007, 12:44 PM

There is a theory I cooked up in my head after reading Spinner's End that could mark Snape as a Red King....

I think there is something more to him and Narcissa than just collegues in evil. Their interaction seemed far too intense for my tastes. Especially considering Snapes customarily "sunny" disposition. This could have all been a show, but if Snape turns out to be good, or even evil the question still haunts me...

Why?
Why make the vow?
He was clever enough to get out of it.

Posted by: memyslfnI Feb 14 2007, 12:49 PM

are you marking Snape as the red king because of his role as the vow breaker? Wow! I never even thought of that. (that would certainly put him as Appolo, the red, or sun king)

I think that we would be missing the obvious, though since we have a wedding glaring us right in the face! But, that certainly is very intreguing idea EW. Maybe you are right. Very clever!

Posted by: EruditeWitch Feb 14 2007, 01:10 PM

He made a vow, but did he break it?

And if we mark him as the Red King based on that, does that mean he WILL break it? Does that bode well for Draco?

Can there be more than one Red King in alchemical literature?

Also, I think that Fleur and Bill IS very obvious...I worry about their significance to the plot though.

Posted by: Lost Centaur Feb 14 2007, 03:02 PM

The Alchemy posts are so detailed and numerous that I can't remember if this has been pointed out; please forgive me if it has been discussed in full already:

Concerning the Felix Felicis potion in HBP, USA version, page 187:

-it is the color of molten gold (top of page)

-Slughorn says: "...Yes, it's a funny little potion...(snip)...Desperately tricky to make, and disastrous to get wrong." (halfway down the page)


The reference to its color and the consequences of going about it "wrong" seem to hint at the gold state and the necessary intentions for the preparation of the Philosopher's Stone. Possibly a hint for its appearance in the plot of the last book?

Posted by: susurrous Feb 14 2007, 05:19 PM

While we're talking about colours; Hermione seems to be associated with blue fire -

“The day before Harry’s first Quidditch match [when] the three of them were out in the freezing courtyard during break, and she had conjured them up in a bright blue fire which could be carried around in a jam jar” (11: 134).

“[…] she crouched down, pulled out her wand and whispered a few, well-chosen words. Bright blue flames shot from her wand on to the hem of Snape’s robes” (11: 140).

“[…] and she whipped out her wand, waved it, muttered something and sent a jet of the same bluebell flames she had used on Snape at the plant. In a matter of seconds, the two boys felt it loosening its grip as it cringed away from the light and warmth” (11: 202).

Posted by: memyslfnI Feb 14 2007, 08:36 PM

Posted by: madamros Feb 15 2007, 04:19 AM

Posted by: memyslfnI Feb 15 2007, 09:18 AM

Posted by: madamros Feb 18 2007, 10:49 AM

Posted by: redshoes Feb 19 2007, 10:25 PM

Interesting speculation on the Red Kings. I agree that Bill has to be one of them, and Ron as well. Poor hapless Neville, a Leo, could be one too, although I believe JKR said something about him being the one “who was nearly King,” so maybe not.

But the “marriage” that matters is Harry’s, since he is the one being transformed. I finally pulled together my thoughts on CWs in HP, so for what it’s worth……….

(Apologies in advance for the quotes not working. )

Chemical Weddings: Who, When, How—and Why?

A key stage in physical alchemy is the Chemical Wedding, when the alchemist combines philosophical Sulphur and philosophical Mercury to create the Philosopher’s Stone.

The famous alchemy emblems and engravings of the early modern period used a rich collection of symbolic images to depict the Chemical Wedding, drawing on the metaphors of the great alchemy texts. So who is involved in the Chemical Wedding? When does it happen—and how? What does a Chemical Wedding look like in a work of literary alchemy? And why does it happen? What is its role in the story?

Who

In alchemy texts and engravings Sulphur and Mercury in the final Chemical Wedding are represented as a man and woman, Sun and Moon, King Sol and Queen Luna, Red King and White Queen. It is these personifications that become the actual characters in alchemy plays and stories, including Harry Potter, which is a work of literary alchemy.

A Chemical Wedding is not an actual marriage, however. If Sulphur and Mercury DO marry, it’s at the end of the book, in the matrimoniathon, after the hero has accomplished his task, has achieved his destiny, his transformation. For example, in LOTR Tolkien broke the rule of a mixed gender trio by having HIS trio all-male--Frodo, Samwise, Gollum--thereby guaranteeing there would be no marriage within the trio.

When

There are many scenarios but the “standard” ones call for a Chemical Wedding in the 4th stage (the “coniunctio” or conjunction) and the 7th stage (the “rubedo”). The final Chemical Wedding is the climactic interaction of the entire opus, the joining that transforms the hero into the Philosopher’s Stone. (In Ripley’s influential Twelve Gates scheme, the final Chemical Wedding occurs at the 10th stage, the “exaltation.”)

So it’s almost certain that we haven’t seen the final CW in HP: that will come in the final book, Book 7. But we should have seen a preliminary CW somewhere in Books 1-6.

How

Alchemy emblems show the initial CWs as animal matings (“dog and bitch, hen and ----, birds of prey, winged and wingless dragons or serpents,” Lyndy Abraham, p. 36). Emblems for the final CW typically show a naked man and woman, standing next to each other or actually copulating, crowned, and/or marked as Sun and Moon.

Alchemy plays and stories have always taken literary license with the formula developed by alchemists like Flamel and Ripley and depicted by engravers like Johann Mylius and Michael Maier. A common tweaking of the formula is to have more than two Chemical Weddings for the hero and his or her partner in the course of the story, topped off by a “matrimoniathon” of other couples in the Happy Ending at the end of the story.

Almost all serious HP alchemy theorists have theorized about how JKR is writing the Chemical Wedding in her story. Most focus on trying to identify a Chemical Wedding in Book 4, which should correspond to the “coniunctio” stage. Here’s a sampling.

1. Drawing on Tarot as well as alchemy, this analysis argues that “the main conjunction in GOF is Tom and Harry.” http://kaskait.livejournal.com/45178.html
2. Another analysis suggests that the Chemical Wedding in GOF was between Harry (fire) and Cedric (earth), when they grabbed the Triwizard Cup at the same time.
3. In an editorial at Spinners End at Mugglenet, “Lady Lupin” argues that Harry will need to join with his “Anima” and “female counterpart,” Ginny.
4. Here at Leaky, the dominant theory, following John Granger, is that the Chemical Wedding has not yet taken place, but that there will be two in Book 7: between Bill and Fleur and between Ron and Hermione. According to this argument, Bill meeting Fleur in Book 4 served as the Chemical Wedding of the coniunctio stage. In this view, Harry does not undergo a Chemical Wedding as a direct participant himself, ever--because Harry is not Sulphur, Ron is.

This diversity of views proves one thing at least: There is no agreement on who will take part in the CW, when it has or will happen, or what it looks like.

Why

In physical alchemy, the joining of Philosophical Sulphur and Philosophical Mercury in the Chemical Wedding creates the Philosopher’s Stone. In a story, the Chemical Wedding joins the hero joins to his partner in order to accomplish a task or take an essential step on his hero’s journey.

Chemical Weddings in The Little White Horse and Harry Potter

How can we evaluate the different theories about Chemical Weddings in HP? One thing we can do is look at JKR’s literary influences to see if she has borrowed the imagery of the Chemical Wedding from another source. What does a Chemical Wedding look like?

The first place to look is at the book that JKR has said most influenced HP, and her favourite book since she was a child, Elizabeth Goudge’s The Little White Horse. Sure enough, as in so much else, Rowling borrowed and adapted the scenarios and images of the Chemical Weddings in HP from TLWH.

JKR has frequently acknowledged her debt to TLWH.

[quote] “My favourite book was The Little White Horse by Elizabeth Goudge….And perhaps more than any other book, it has a direct influence on the Harry Potter books.” – JKR, “Harry Potter – Harry and Me,” The Scotsman, November 2002 [/quote]

Briefly, the protagonist of the story, the one undergoing the alchemical process is Maria . Maria is a 13-year-old orphan in 19th century England who goes to live at Moonacre Manor with her cousin Sir Benjamin Merryweather when her parents die. Maria is explicitly marked as the moon (“Moon Princess”), the “pure spirit,” and, with her “straight reddish hair,” as fire. As the hero of the story, she corresponds to Harry.

Maria’s partner in her adventures is Robin. He is marked as the Sun, the “brave soul,” and earth. He corresponds to Hermione. Here’s how he is described:

[quote] He was sturdy and strong and red-cheeked, with a skin tanned brown by sun and wind. His dark eyes sparkling with fun and kindliness were set in thick short black lashes beneath strongly marked dark eyebrows. His nose was tip-tilted and a little impudent above his wide, laughing, generous mouth and strong cleft chin. His thick chestnut hair grew low on his forehead, curled all over his head as tightly as a lamb’s fleece, and at the back of his neck the final curl formed a comic sort of twist like a drake’s tail. He was dressed all in brown, a rough brown jerkin the colour of fallen beech leaves, brown leather breeches and leggings, and he wore upon the side of his head a battered old brown hat with a long green peacock’s feather in it. (p. 33). [/quote]

As we know Hermione has brown eyes and bushy brown hair. Born on September 19, she is a Virgo, an earth sign.

Maria spends her early years in London. Robin comes to her from Moonacre via astral travel and they play together in the Square Garden. Their first Chemical Wedding, however, is after her move to Moonacre.

Goudge uses circles to symbolize Chemical Weddings—first subtly, then clearly and overtly. As Lyndy Abraham writes, the circle is “the symbol of perfection. The circle signifies the perfect, eternal spiritual realm” as well as “the completed opus alchymicum.” (p. 41). The circle symbolizes the goal of alchemy, and is thus a commonplace symbol in alchemy stories. That Goudge and Rowling both use it—as in the spherical Golden Snitch Harry is always pursuing—is significant though hardly surprising.

What is more significant is Rowling’s borrowing of a more complex circle image from TLWH: Goudge uses animals circling around Maria and Robin as they hug to symbolize their final Chemical Wedding. That is distinctive. Rowling has borrowed that image in OOTP, when Pigwidgeon circles Harry and Hermione as they hug. I’ll post the two passages together below, but first let’s go back to consider Maria and Robin’s CWs in order.

The first Chemical Wedding – Rescuing Serena

Maria is out riding her mare Periwinkle when she hears a scream.

[quote] As she neared the bottom of the hollow the bushes thinned out, and she could see that down below there was a clear space of turf carpeted with primroses like a round embroidered green carpet. Maria would have exclaimed in delight at the beauty of the place, only the beauty was spoiled for her because on the center of the carpet was a trap, and caught in the trap was a screaming hare. (p. 71) [/quote]

One of the Men from the Dark Woods is about to kill the hare, when Maria screams at him:

[quote] ‘Let that rabbit alone!’ she cried, all her fear suddenly lost in a surge of hot anger and passionate love for the hare.’[/quote]

All seems lost until “the sudden appearance upon the scene of Someone Else.”

[quote] Maria, bewildered by her fear, still all in a fury of love and anger, was aware of a slim brown figure bounding towards her, of a curly head lowered like that of a butting goat, and then over went the man in black flat on his back, well and truly winded, while there rang through the hollow a laugh as merry and carefree as a cuckoo’s cry, a boy’s laugh, clear as a bell, a Puck’s laugh, full of impish glee. [/quote]

(First a couple of asides. If you’re wondering where Hermione’s original surname Puckle came from, there’s a clue. As well as her ‘periwinkle’ blue robes—azure is the color of the Quintessence, but JKR follows Goudge in using ‘periwinkle’ instead of ‘azure.’ They’re the same color—sky blue.)

So here, in Maria and Robin’s first Chemical Wedding, we have the two children reuniting on a round patch of hillside. And together, united, they take the first step in Maria’s hero’s journey: they save the hare from its trap. Maria names the hare Serena. (The animals in TLWH are heavily anthropomorphized.)

Goudge is writing for quite young children—JKR said she read the book when she was eight—so she very considerately has the characters explain the significance of events. So later in the book Robin lays it all out:

[quote] ‘Robin,’ Maria said, ‘how did you know that you and I together had to drive out the wickedness of the Men from the Dark Woods? The very first day I saw you here, you said we’d have to do it. How did you know?’
‘It was because of Serena,’ said Robin. ‘No one before has ever been able to save anything from those men, but you and I saved Serena. I knew then that we could save the whole valley….’ (p. 149) [/quote]

Apparently JKR liked the idea of her hero and heroine saving the cuddly animal together so much that she used it twice—first in SS, when Harry and Hermione saved the not-so-cute-and-cuddly Norbert, then in POA, when they rescued Buckbeak (and Sirius). Only the latter is accompanied by the symbolism of a CW, however.

The second Chemical Wedding – the Proposal

The second Chemical Wedding in TLWH is a unique scene that uses actual bridal imagery. Maria tries on what will eventually be her wedding dress. As per the alchemy formula, first she and Robin quarrel, for the first and last time in the book. Robin asks her, ‘When you do marry, who will you marry?’ She teases him and he blows up:

[quote] ‘I have not quite decided yet,’ she said demurely, ‘but I think I shall marry a boy I knew in London.’

‘What?’ yelled Robin. ‘Marry some mincing nincompoop of a Londoner with silk stockings and pomade in his hair and a face like a Cheshire cheese?’….

‘Why don’t you want me to marry that London boy?’ she asked.

Robin brought his fist down on the table with a crash that set all the china leaping. ‘Because you are going to marry me, he shouted. ‘Do you hear, Maria? You are going to marry me.’….

‘You can stop roaring, Robin,’ said Maria. ‘You can stop, because for the sake of peace and quiet I have suddenly made up my mind to marry you.’ (pp. 146-147) [/quote]

Right after they agree to marry they decide to take the next step in Maria’s mission of bringing harmony to Moonacre, to restore Paradise Hill to the church (p. 149). Goudge also has Robin’s mother point out the significance of their quarrel—and their coming union.

[quote] ‘A little while ago Robin was angry and Maria was being as aggravating as she knew how to be. You might have quarreled very badly. And you must never quarrel. If you do, you will wreck not only your own happiness but the happiness of the whole valley.’ [/quote]

In due course, Maria and Robin undertake several perilous adventures together. In a final confrontation, Maria tames the wicked villain Cocq de Noir and experiences transformation, when she sees a vision of hundreds of white horses coming in from the sea. She succeeds in bringing peace to Moonacre.

The third Chemical Wedding – The Hug in the Circle of the Animals

Despite its small cast of characters, Goudge manages a small matrimoniathon of three couples at the end of the book, including Sir Benjamin and Robin’s mother. Before the actual wedding ceremonies, Maria hosts a party to celebrate the reconciliation of all the people of Moonacre and the Dark Woods.

Maria asks Robin:

[quote] ‘Shall you mind Sir Benjamin marrying your mother, Robin?’
‘He can if he likes,’ said Robin. ‘I don’t care who marries who so long as you marry me.’
And he suddenly bellowed with joy in much the same way as Sir Benjamin had done, and flinging his arms round Maria enveloped her in a great bear hug that nearly took her breath away. And all the animals, Wrolf, Zachariah, Serena, Wiggins and Periwinkle (who had now come right into the hall), gathered round them in a circle and roared and miaowed and squeaked and barked and whinnied with joy, while Marmaduke Scarlet stood in the kitchen door with arms akimbo and smiled the very broadest of his smiles…. (pp. 230-231) [/quote]

We have already seen the parallel scene in HP, in OOTP, Chapter 4, “Number Twelve, Grimmauld Place”:

[quote] Harry caught a brief glimpse of a gloomy high-ceilinged, twin-bedded room, then there was a loud twittering noise, followed by an even louder shriek, and his vision was completely obscured by a large quantity of very bushy hair—Hermione had thrown himself onto him in a hug that nearly knocked him flat, while Ron’s tiny owl, Pigwidgeon, zoomed excitedly round and round their heads. [/quote]


So, based on these parallels, what theory can we develop about Chemical Weddings in HP? I think there have been three so far, in Books 1, 3, and 5, all between Harry and Hermione, with a final one to come in 7.

SS/PS
JKR wrote SS/PS as a stand-alone book, in case it was the only one she would ever get published. So it makes sense that she would include a Chemical Wedding toward the end of the book. The CW is very simple. First, Ron, the Body character, is knocked out of the action and left behind. Harry and Hermione go on together. Trapped between two walls of fire, Hermione hugs Harry and makes her famous speech:

[quote]Hermione's lip trembled, and she suddenly dashed at Harry and threw her
arms around him.
"Hermione!"
"Harry -- you're a great wizard, you know."
"I'm not as good as you," said Harry, very embarrassed, as she let go of
him.
"Me!" said Hermione. "Books! And cleverness! There are more important
things -- friendship and bravery and -- oh Harry -- be careful!" [/quote]

The imagery is very simple. The two children, corresponding to Sulphur and Mercury and thus representing the four elements, are in a rectilinear room between two walls of fire. Hermione’s words identify herself as mind and Harry as heart. She encircles him with her arms in the hug. Their “joining” unites fire and air with earth and water. The symbolism is complete.

The purpose of the CW is simple and clear: Hermione’s words and actions give Harry the support he needs to go on alone to the final test of the book, the confrontation with LV.

POA

The Chemical Wedding in POA draws on symbolism from both TLWH and LOTR. Standing together in the hospital ward, with Ron again knocked out of the action, Hermione encircles herself and Harry with the chain of her Timeturner. Just like Maria and Robin, Hermione and Harry undertake a dangerous rescue—they save a hippogriff rather than a hare and they also rescue Sirius.

Tolkien uses the imagery of the chain in LOTR. In The Two Towers, when Sam must briefly take over the role of Ringbearer from Frodo, he places the chain holding the ring around his neck.

[quote] And then he bent his own neck and put the chain upon it. And at once his head was bowed to the ground with the weight of the ring as if a great stone had been strung on him. [/quote]

(In the movie he merely puts it in his pocket, but that was a change from the book.) In taking on Frodo’s role Sam symbolically “joins” with him.

OOTP

The Chemical Wedding in OOTP is the 12 Grimmauld Place hug with Pigwidgeon circling their heads that I quoted earlier. The scene is significant in Harry’s journey because it marks his reunion with Hermione after a summer of being apart—and without news. His hero’s journey can now continue.

OOTP also offers these small bits of Harry/Hermione alchemical symbolism.

In the Murtlap scene:

[quote] Harry placed his bleeding, aching hand into the bowl and experienced a wonderful feeling of relief. Crookshanks curled around his legs, purring loudly, and then leapt into his lap and settled down. (p. 324) [/quote]

In TLWH Zachariah the Merryweather family cat shows his approval of Maria’s actions in the same way—by circling her legs.

[quote] Zachariah walked round and round her in circles, his tail held as usual in three coils over his back, pressing against her skirts, and purred and purred and purred. (p. 155) [/quote]

In HP Crookshank’s actions gain added significance because he is Hermione’s familiar.

There’s also an amusing scene in Transfiguration class.

[quote]'Well, yes, that occurred to me, too,' said Hermione, allowing her teacup to jog in neat little circles around Harry's, whose stubby little legs were still unable to touch the desktop, 'I've been wondering whether Mundungus has persuaded them to sell stolen goods or something awful. (“Grawp,” p. 680) [/quote]

This time it is an object of Hermione’s that circles Harry’s. The line is a throwaway—the event serves no purpose in the plot. It is purely symbolic, recalling the times that Hermione has encircled Harry with her arms.

HBP

There’s no obvious CW for Harry and Hermione in HBP. Hermione hugs Harry, in the “Phoenix Lament” chapter, but there’s no accompanying alchemical symbolism.

However, there is this tantalizing moment involving Buckbeak a few pages before the hug. Buckbeak has been indelibly associated with Harry and Hermione since they rescued him in POA. Referred to again as Buckbeak rather than by his Witherwings alias, the hippogriff saves Harry from being tortured by Snape.

[quote] Buckbeak had flown at Snape, who staggered backward as the razor-sharp claws slashed at him. As Harry raised himself into a sitting position, his head still swimming from its last contact with the ground, he saw Snape running as hard as he could, the enormous beast flapping behind him and screeching as Harry had never heard him screech—
Harry struggled to his feet, looking around groggily for his wand, hoping to give chase again, but even as his fingers fumbled in the grass, discarding twigs, he knew it would be too late, and sure enough, by the time he had located his wind, he turned only to see the hippogriff circling the gates. (“Flight of the Prince,” p. 605) [/quote]

Again, JKR is indebted to Goudge, for in TLWH, Serena, the hare Maria and Robin had saved, returns the favor by saving them from Cocq de Noir and his evil Men from the Dark Woods.

[quote] And then, suddenly, despair turned into joy, for a beam of sunlight, piercing through the darkness of the trees, shone upon a beautiful, silvery, long-eared form leaping along ahead of them.
‘It’s Serena!’ gasped Maria. ‘Serena to show us the way!’ (p. 196) [/quote]

HPDH

All anyone can do is speculate, but it would be consistent with most alchemy stories if there was a climactic Chemical Wedding for Harry and his female partner somewhere past the midpoint of the final book, with a number of actual weddings in a matrimoniathon at the very end--when all the Red Kings link up with their respective White Queens.

Harry DOES need a female partner. The reason Dumbledore failed, according to JKR in the TLC/MN interview, was that he lacked a female partner.

[quote]But I would say that I think it has been demonstrated, particularly in books five and six that immense brainpower does not protect you from emotional mistakes and I think Dumbledore really exemplifies that. In fact, I would tend to think that being very, very intelligent might create some problems and it has done for Dumbledore, because his wisdom has isolated him, and I think you can see that in the books, because where is his equal, where is his confidante, where is his partner?
He has none of those things. He’s always the one who gives, he’s always the one who has the insight and has the knowledge. So I think that, while I ask the reader to accept that McGonagall is a very worthy second in command, she is not an equal. You have a slightly circuitous answer, but I can't get much closer than that.[/quote]

DD is mind, if you will, he makes "emotional mistakes." So for his partner DD needed "heart," and Minerva, named for the Roman goddess of wisdom, was "mind," the same.

Posted by: Clueniffler Feb 20 2007, 05:16 AM

All anyone can do is speculate, but it would be consistent with most alchemy stories if there was a climactic Chemical Wedding for Harry and his female partner somewhere past the midpoint of the final book, with a number of actual weddings in a matrimoniathon at the very end--when all the Red Kings link up with their respective White Queens.

Posted by: becky920 Feb 20 2007, 05:48 AM

We can't discount the possibility that JKR has reversed the colors of the king and queen. Lily, with her red hair, is probably a red queen -- and James, the white stag, is her white king. Harry was the Stone that they produced. I think Harry and Ginny together could be another red queen/white king pairing, since Harry's patronus is also a white stag.

Posted by: galadriel12 Feb 20 2007, 06:13 AM

Posted by: memyslfnI Feb 20 2007, 08:53 AM

I have been thinking about regulus a bit and wanted to share a few thoughts about what I have been thinking about. Especially about regulus according to alchemy.

We know that Regulus is a star in the leo constellation. It has often been called the "lions heart", I am assuming, because of its location in the constellation. In alchemy, the name is derived from the Latin regulus, meaning petty king.

Newton, the master mathematician and scientist was also an alchemist and was extremely interested in the the star of regulus of antimony in alchemy because of the crystalline form it took. a picture of it is http://webapp1.dlib.indiana.edu/collections/newton/chemprod/chemProd_01_thumb.jpg. Newton said that the "crystals shone inward" as opposed to outward.

What I found most interesting is the behavior of regulus. When heated, the star of regulus sinks to the bottom. Because the regulus of antimony combines readily with gold (the king of metals) it became important to the process of refining the precious metal and an object of considerable experimental interest to alchemists.

So we have three things here that I think is important.

One:

the regulus of antimony is called the star of regulus. How does this relate to HP? Did regulus Black align himselves with werewolves that worked with voldemort? Was he a werewolf? As a spy, was Lupin helping him and for some reason (it better be a good one!) not revealed this to Harry?

(remember antimony in alchemy was symbolized by the wolf)

Two:
The star of regulus sinks to the bottom. I wonder if Regulus was drowned and that is how he met his untimely end. I am speculating, based on this property of the regulus of antimony that after stealing the locket and hiding it and replacing the fake on in its place, Regulus was killed by drowning. I wonder if he is now an inferi on the cave? Sinking to the bottom of the lake.

Three:
regulus combines readily with gold. This tells me that the action of Regulus Black will directly influence Harry's transformation to gold. I wonder if there will be more clues written down for Harry to find from R.A.B. The clues will influence Harry's choices and his path to enlightenment.


ther eis also this quote about the symbolsim of the star of regulus that I thought was awesome:

Posted by: becky920 Feb 20 2007, 09:35 AM

Posted by: memyslfnI Feb 20 2007, 10:07 AM

I also wanted to add this about the CW and its effect on Harry. According to the emerald tablet at the Chemical wedding:



All Obscurity will be clear to you," it is "the Glory of the Whole Universe."

This leads me to believe that a HUGE amount of hidden knowledge will be revealed at the wedding. Something big! This is the defining moment to Harry. All the teachings of Albus Dumbledore will sink in at the wedding. Will he see the power of love between Fleur and Bill? Not only that, weddings tend to bring out the love between couples. Will He also see this in Molly and Arthur? Hermione and Ron? Will he realize how much love he has for Ginny?

My point in bringing up the power of love is that even in the throws of war, Love will reign supreme. even if its just for that fleeting moment in time. I wonder if harry will realize this. Once source says this about the words of the Emerald Tablet "The goal of alchemy is to make this golden moment permanent in a state of consciousness called the Philosopher’s Stone". maybe Harry will have to remember this power, how at the moment of Fleur and Bill saying "I do" the war can not penetrate that moment.

I have long been a believer of a blood bath at the wedding, but I wonder if love will protect them all from that fate.

Posted by: PAM2002 Feb 20 2007, 10:18 AM

Posted by: becky920 Feb 20 2007, 11:31 AM

Posted by: galadriel12 Feb 20 2007, 11:43 AM

Posted by: LadyMugwump Feb 20 2007, 11:59 AM

Posted by: Snark Feb 21 2007, 02:57 AM

Posted by: memyslfnI Feb 21 2007, 09:11 AM

Ginny, is Harry's equal. JKR says this much in her interview:

Posted by: Snark Feb 21 2007, 12:39 PM

Thank you so much, memyslfnI!

I've been doing a great deal of thinking on Ginny (yes, I'm a 'shipper, but not really for that).

She seems to have gone on more of a personal journey than many of the other characters (Harry excluded).

I'm wondering if there wasn't some sort of chemical wedding in progress in the Chamber when Harry arrived -- as Riddle was using Ginny's soul (via the diary) to fashion himself a body.

Ginny seems to have some associations with Fawkes, and some phoenix imagery in general, which I go into in this thread:

http://www.leakylounge.com/index.php?showtopic=40279&pid=1107178&st=0&#entry1107178

It's all really interesting!

Posted by: PAM2002 Feb 21 2007, 02:32 PM

I am not sure I'm convinced Dumbledore never had an equal. If Harry has found his match in Ginny as a teenager, DD could have easily had a match long, long ago. But it's certainly true that as far as we know him he was isolated. But that could have been 100 years ago that he lost his partner. It's hard to imagine that he was such as successful wizard as well as alchemist without having someone worthy of him. (That probably doesn't sound right but hopefully my meaning is understood.)

Posted by: memyslfnI Feb 21 2007, 03:02 PM

I can certainly see that Pam2002. I wonder, if there was someone special, an equal, before Grindlewald? Maybe it was the defeat of this powerful evil wizard that caused him to isolate himself. (Maybe he lost her in the battle?) Maybe we are seeing a repeat of history in Harry?

Dumbledore certainly would know about cycles and that if there is one truly evil wizard, after his defeat, there will most likely be another. It could have been that he felt it was his duty to devote himself to the protection of the wizarding world.

(I am just guessing all this on course). I remember in the interview I quoted in my last post when Grindlewald was mentioned, JKR said "no comment", so I would hazard a guess that he will be mentioned in book seven.

Posted by: duchessa_bella Feb 21 2007, 03:12 PM

Is it possible that the type of ¨partner¨ referred to here is not necessarily a partner in the romantic sense ? I mean, what I got from that quote was that Dumbledore was isolated in general, not only in the romantic sense. So is it possible that what is meant is that while Dumbledore had many friend-type people, he never really had a confidante, a partner in crime, someone who was as knowledgable and could share in the more complicated of his endeavors and thought processes ?

I mean, I´ve seen plenty of people who are not married and yet would describe themselves as anything but ¨isolated¨.

Posted by: memyslfnI Feb 21 2007, 09:36 PM

We know he had an intellectual partner named Nicholas Flamel!

Posted by: Shard Feb 21 2007, 10:35 PM

Posted by: EruditeWitch Feb 22 2007, 05:45 PM

Hey alchemists! I need your help.

I've currently been making the argument that there is no way to know that JKR used alchemy to create the romance in her books.

The answering argument is that literary alchemy is all encompassing, so since she said she used it, she had to use it in every area of her books.

I'm basically being told I know nothing about alchemy and I have to find a source that states that alchemy can be used in pieces and not the whole book.

Is my argument valid? I believe JKR is using alchemy in some ways and not others. I have no idea how to better make my point. What do you guys think?

Posted by: hpaddict Feb 22 2007, 07:50 PM

Oh dear.

So - I'm going to jump in and say a few things. I firmly believe that alchemic discussion as it pertains to the HP books belongs here - including shipping. However - shipping for the sake of shipping belongs over in sailed/sunk, not here. Prior to HBP in http://www.leakylounge.com/index.php?showtopic=3074 there were many shipping thoughts; I suggest people look there. Otherwise, chemical wedding and red stage, carry on!

hpaddict - LL Mod

Posted by: susurrous Feb 22 2007, 07:54 PM

Posted by: Weasle Diva Feb 22 2007, 08:10 PM

Where are these shipping alchemists that are giving you a hard time, Eruditewitch? I don't know why, but it sounds like an ongoing episode of Alchemy Gone Wild.

There are a lot of alchemists in history. They did not all do things exactly the same way.

Is Rowling using Agrippa or Flamel as her guide? They both are mentioned in the first train ride. Later in the books, she mentions DeeJohn (John Dee) and Paracelsus. That's all I can think up right this minute.

Every one of those alchemists had their own take on the subject. Can the people debating you point with 100 percent clarity, which alchemist's theories Rowling fancies the most? Granted, Flamel seems the most likely. However, the whole Voldemort springing out of a cauldron in GoF, seems like a Paracelsus moment with his ideas regarding homunculus. Flamel, I don't think, ever wrote anything like that.

So Rowling is using different alchemy guys, in bits and pieces.

Also, if Rowling is serious about alchemy, why would she limit herself to reviewing just one alchemist? It is such an interesting subject.

Posted by: EruditeWitch Feb 22 2007, 08:27 PM

I agree, i think she's taking a little bit from everything when she makes her plots. And not just even alchemy, but other literary traditions. The question that we can only guess at is where and what goes where. I firmly believe that romance isn't as alchemical as some people think.

the site is www.emmawatson.net

it's the forums there under member forums and shipper forum. If anyone is interested.

Posted by: firephoenix Feb 22 2007, 11:28 PM

Ya know, A great man once said. . . . OK it was just Emmerson. But he did have a point. No matter how much the answers are right in your face someone will come along and bend it to fit their purpose.

I used to post in the LL shipping thread and I have in the past used Alchemy to defend my ships. I posted about them earlier in this thread.

EruditeWitch, The best advice I can give you is to study Alchemy on your own. No argument can be beaten when you truely believe what you are stating. I bet Shard would be honored to guild you through HP101.

Posted by: galadriel12 Feb 23 2007, 06:57 AM

Posted by: Shard Feb 23 2007, 11:43 AM

EruditeWitch, The best advice I can give you is to study Alchemy on your own. No argument can be beaten when you truely believe what you are stating. I bet Shard would be honored to guild you through HP101.

Posted by: EruditeWitch Feb 23 2007, 11:55 AM

Thanks so much for your advice! I like what you said, too, Galadriel! I'll take all of this into consideration. I will definately look through the HP 101 stuff to see if I can formulate a really educated argument, or at least back up something someone else said.

On your post, Shard: FASCINATING!!!!! I love this theory. I think the trio and extended trio would really apply to this. However, why do you put Draco in the seventh spot?

Could Snape be there?
Voldemort?
Hagrid?

Posted by: Shard Feb 23 2007, 12:17 PM

Well the reason I was thinking Draco, was because whoever the 7th is to be (and it could be many) was first I think the Hogwarts houses have to be more united, thus someone from Slytherin. Then I think this 7th person has to be someone each of the 6 already know, and given the possiblity of Draco redeeming himself he could join Harry in the fight to take down Voldemort.

Posted by: EruditeWitch Feb 23 2007, 12:26 PM

You have no idea how much I would LOVE to see Draco in that role. I really hope beyond hope Draco redeems himself. There really aren't any other slytherins that are big enough in the books. And what about Hufflepuff? Could Zacharias Smith have a bigger role than just the possibility of being connected to Hepzibah?

Posted by: Alchemist Apprentice Feb 24 2007, 04:26 PM

YIKES! You have a baby three weeks early and look what I have to catch up on??????????????????

ok So instead of rehashing a bunch of "old" stuff , I'll just add my two cents with the latest discussions...
firephoenix, couldn't have said it any better

we know that Harry has to 'unite' the four houses. Now Draco would represent the slytherins, Luna is a Ravenclaw, the missing link for me is Hufflepuff- unless we count or consider Cedric- then Neville as Gryffindor...so if my addition is correct we have 4+3 (three being the trio)= 7
what do you think?

Posted by: mlwl Feb 24 2007, 04:45 PM

Maybe the Hufflepuff is Zach Smith? I dunno... I'm totally blanking on Hufflepuff members right now.
For the metals to which they respond, should we just consider the colors that Jo has already given us (those of their houses), or is there another side to the symbolism that we should consider? Is there any lore already associated with these that makes a good match?

By houses....

THE SEVEN METALS

Lead, Silver, Tin, Iron, Mercury - Slytherin? But which?

Gold - Gryffindor is the obvious, but does Hufflepuff count?
Copper - um, Bronze is kinda a coppery color.... Ravenclaw?


That doesn't lend itself as well as one would hope, and I don't really see Luna (moon) as being a copper. I'm going to have to think about this differently for it to match in my head properly.

Edit: found more on copper

Posted by: EruditeWitch Feb 24 2007, 04:47 PM

I've suggested Zacharias Smith. We can be almost certain that he will have a larger role to play in book seven as we can theorize he's connected with Hepzibah.

So if we say the trio is seperate, then we can get someone prominent to represent each house. However, I'm still not sure Draco will redeem himself. My fingers are crossed!

Posted by: Snark Feb 24 2007, 04:51 PM

Posted by: EruditeWitch Feb 24 2007, 04:53 PM

Oooooh good one! I think that will make everything very even. Iron is also the most earthy of the suggested metals, IMO

Posted by: Snark Feb 24 2007, 04:55 PM

Posted by: becky920 Feb 24 2007, 06:38 PM

YIKES! You have a baby three weeks early and look what I have to catch up on??????????????????

Posted by: EruditeWitch Feb 24 2007, 08:46 PM

I need an alchemist's help again!

i'm trying to figure out for another debate thread what the significance of Essence of Rue is. I know I've read something REALLY interesting, but I can't find it.

Also, is there a significance to weasels and mythology.

Posted by: scollins Feb 25 2007, 12:40 AM

Posted by: galadriel12 Feb 25 2007, 06:16 AM

Posted by: memyslfnI Feb 25 2007, 09:33 AM

I would put Ron as Mars wich would make him Iron

EW asked abbout Rue in a previous post. Ron is fed Essence of Rue in HBP after he was poisoned.

essence of Rue is also called the "herb of the Sun" and is assosciated with Mars. it was planted near the temple of mars in Roman times
Also as Ron IMHO, represents sufur, this would assign him to the metal Iron.

Al! I am soooooo glad to see you posting again! I hope you are feeling well after the birth of your own golden child!

FP! You presence has sorely been missed as well! I am glad to see you too! for you both!

Posted by: EruditeWitch Feb 25 2007, 01:58 PM

Wow Scollins! Those metals make some of the most sense I've ever seen in an alchemy argument. I like the metals you've assigned.

I would also put Ron as Iron. He is the most earthy of them all. He is tall and hearty, often powerful. He is also very overwhelmingly masculine. His quick temper and inherent strength make him very ruled by the God of War.

If we can consider Draco, he would definitely make a great tin. I am still on the fence about whether we can even put Draco in a redemptive role, but he fits so many equations when looked at that way. Especially the part about tin being a catalyst. Draco is often the source of a lot of emotions for a lot of people. He is the one who was ultimately responsible for the turning of the tides in HBP. He is weak alone, as we saw in the Sectumsempre scene. I think if Draco was to combine with another element (doesn't have to be romantic) then he can prove beneficial.

Going back to my earlier post on Hermes being the slayer of the Dragon of Ignorance. If Hermione is mercury, and Draco is tin, the Hermione can slay Draco's ignorance and bring him over to create that grand association of metals.

Thanks for all of the insights of essence of Rue. How's this for a theory. Ginny could be symbolic of that, as she is associated with a flowery scent. Considering the many references to Ginny's power and strength in the books, she could be Harry's rue.

Maybe one of the Weasleys will be responsible for bringing down Nagini. Begin mortal enemies and all. My money is on Arthur. He is the aging king, and he's had encounters with Nagini and lived to tell.

Posted by: Weasle Diva Feb 25 2007, 03:31 PM

Rue is a big deal when you factor in the basilisk/weasel connection.

I probably ought to explain that a bit more.

In mythology, the basilisk can be killed by three things:
1.Rooster's crowing (Rowling included that in her CoS book)
2.Mirrors (Rowling included that in her CoS book)
3.Weasels (Oddly, enough, Not included in CoS book, just as an amazing coincidence has an entire family of Weasleys.)

Is it possible that Rowling stumbled upon only two of the three basilisk killers? Not likely.

Is it possible that she just decided that weasels, one of her favorite animals, is not important enough to mention this in CoS?

According to Bullfinches Mythology (and other sources such as T.H. White), weasels are immune to the stare of the basilisk.

And Ginny did open the Chamber of Secrets with no harm.

Weasels, however, can be killed by the poison of the basilisk. Unless they eat rue. This strengthens them to go "back into the battle."

Rue is also called the Herb of Grace. Priests used to sprinkle holy water on branches of rue and wave these branches over the people to protect them from disease.

So basically, grace defeats evil.

After poisoning, Rowling gives Ron Weasel-y rue of all things.
Which means that she is more than aware of the rue/weasle connection.

Also, in playing cards, the clubs symbol is taken from rue.
So Ron, of all things, uses a club to defeat a troll in the first book.

I think one can make a case that Ron will be defeating one of the horcruxes, probably Nagini, by himself (basilisk = Voldy metaphorically speaking).

Back to Alchemy:
Rue heals poison. So does a bezoar. So does phoenix tears. So does the Elixer of Life.

In the metal listings project:
Harry = Saturn which is lead (Harry's under the baleful influence of Saturn) Harry is "walking with leaden steps" a couple times in the books.

Ron = Tin (Tin is a poor metal) Ron also says that he "rides a broomstick to Jupiter")

Ginny - Copper - Venus - Love
Hermione - Mercury

Iron could be Hagrid.

I think silver and gold represent levels to be achieved, not actual people at the start.

Posted by: Alchemist Apprentice Feb 25 2007, 03:36 PM

Posted by: EruditeWitch Feb 25 2007, 03:36 PM

That is exactly what I was looking for, Weasle Diva!!

I think maybe I've encountered you before, because I'm pretty sure I came across the rue and basilisk connection to Weasels on this forum.

Might I copy and paste on another forum your information on Rue?

I'll have to argue putting Hagrid in the list of metals. I just think we are probably focusing on the younger characters. Hagrid falls in line with father figures, and if we incorporate him, shall we incorporate all of the other men.

I would say, that if his role in the stories were different, though, that Hagrid more than meets up with Iron. The only exception is in connection with Mars. We know for a fact that Hagrid really isn't a fighter, he is a lover.

ETA: Alchemist Apprentice: I agree with your assessment of Arthur. It does seem more likely that Ron or Ginny would slay Nagini. Maybe that's the "amazing thing" we see from Ginny in DH? I still think Arthur is a second king of sorts, however. But he is no knight like so many of his children are personified. I just think that the Weasel connection and the Arthurian connection makes Arthur significant to something in DH.

Posted by: Weasle Diva Feb 25 2007, 06:43 PM

No problem, EruditeWitch, cut and paste as needed.

Yeah, let's keep Hagrid off of the metal list. He may, unfortunately, have a close encounter with the Red Stage.

Posted by: becky920 Feb 26 2007, 06:10 AM

Thanks for all the info on the metals, scollins...

I think the descriptions may lend a hint as to who might serve in what role if we look at their horoscopes. For example, you suggested Neville as Lead -- I think I'd go with Ron. Lead is ruled by Saturn, the god of Time, and we know Ron got a special new watch for his birthday. Plus it's described as soft and malleable, as is Pisces, Ron's sign. Then your description said Lead combined with Mercury (Hermione) creates "a purified element called Philosophic Mercury."

Neville, I'd put as tin -- because it's a weak metal on its own, but Neville with Harry made a pretty tough duo in OotP.

Giving this some further thought, I wonder what you all think about Ginny as Silver instead of Luna (or maybe in addition to Luna). I know she's Harry's love interest, but we see her several times helping Harry figure something out, and Silver represents intuition, inner wisdom, and contemplation according to this list. (I'm specifically thinking of how she calmly thought of a way for Harry to talk to Sirius, and how she helped him realize he wasn't being possessed at a time when he couldn't rely on his own intuition.)

Then -- and here's where I'm really going out on a limb -- since I took Ginny away from Copper, how about Fleur? If she doesn't represent feminine beauty I don't know who does. Which leaves Bill -- her partner -- for Iron, as it represents male energy.

So, my list:

Copper = Fleur
Gold = Harry
Iron = Bill
Lead = Ron
Mercury = Hermione
Silver = Ginny and/or Luna
Tin = Neville

I would leave Harry as Gold since his sign is Leo, which is ruled by the sun. But if you go with the "Harry isn't gold since he's the alchemist" argument, then I'd put Ginny or Neville in for gold -- probably Ginny since she's also a Leo, which would allow Luna to stay where she is.

Does anyone know Luna or Neville's "signs" so I can see whether my theory works for their birthdays with the metals?

Posted by: memyslfnI Feb 26 2007, 09:17 AM

I would put Neville as Lead. His pet is a Toad, which is the symbol for lead in alchemy. I have also listed the signs attributed to the metals and the planets alchemically.

Gold / the Sun = (Leo)

Silver / the Moon = (cancer)

Iron / Mars = (Scorpio, Ares)

Quicksilver / Mercury (Virgo, Gemini)

Tin / Jupiter (Pisces, Sagittarius)

Copper / Venus (Taurus, Libra)

Lead / Saturn = (Capricorn, Aquarius)

Changing gears completely! (sorry!)

I wonder, if we can look at this a bit differently. If we look at this as Harry's journey, then we look at this as stages he goes through to reach gold.

I also found this which I thought was very interesting. Could Lord Voldemort be Lead?

"Saturn biting the hand of an infant is suggestive of the mythological story of the use of infants’ blood for the mineral spirits of the metals."

We see Lord Voldemort stealing the blood of Harry, a child, in GoF to transform himself. There is also the myth that Kronos, (Saturn) kills his children as they are being born because his own death is foretold as occuring by one of his own children. Lord Voldemort also tries to kill the child that is prophesied to kill him.

Harry's journey begins with LV (Saturn, Lead) acting on the prophecy. I am not sure how the next six characters would play, but I would put hagrid or Draco next.(. I know many have put Ron as tin, which would sit him next on the journey as well as Hermione as Mercury who comes next. Not sure about mars, but I would put Luna and her influence on Harry to look outside what is traditional for silver and When Harry fully embraces what Dumbledore has taught him he will have reached gold.

LV or Neville=lead
Draco= copper (???)
Ron=Tin
Hermione=mercury
Hagrid=Iron
Luna=Silver
Dumbledore=Gold

Where does that leave Neville? Again, this is just a brainstorm, he possibly could be lead, although I really live LV in that role, Lead is symbolized by a toad which of course is Trevor, Neville's pet.

Thoughts oh brilliant ones???

Posted by: EruditeWitch Feb 26 2007, 09:44 AM

Your assessment makes sense, M. The people you put with the metals fit the descriptions and what they are ruled under. The only thing I would say to go against this is the root characterization.

I'm not accusing anyone in HERE, but it seems that some people rely far too much on just alchemy. It is my firm belief that characterization is the most important thing JKR focused on when making these characters. Their personalities come first, and the alchemic formula second. Which is why I think Ron is a pieces, but still has moments of Ares in him.

That being said, there are just some people on that list that dont' really fit to me. I think Hagrid, while very important, doesn't follow any sort of pattern. I think LV is the motivation for Harry, whether he be alchemist or already gold, and not really a part of the mixture. I think we need look only to the extended trio and an as yet named character to mark. When we get to book five, Harry begins to rely on others more. This becomes clear as we see who was at the DoM. Those were the same people holding down the fort when Harry came back from The Cave and those were the ones who got the Felix Felicis. I think this marks them as the important ones in the equasion. So all of them need to be placed somewhere in there.

Also, I think Luna is indisputably silver. Her wisdom following Sirius' death and just the nature of their fellow students leads me to believe she is the most contemplative. Hermione is smart, but Luna's introspection makes her far more silver.

I also think Ginny belongs as Copper. The obvious reason is her hair. Also, she is marked as pretty by people that don't even like her. She is the girl in the series *besides Fleur* who gets that description the most. Couple that with her flowery scent, and we have feminine beauty.

Harry can be gold and be the alchemist. The alchemist must make gold. Harry needs to use these other metals and experiences to make gold within himself and become that last ingredient. That being said, he may need to BECOME gold, but be lead right now. I think the most poignant argument in favor of this is his resistence to corrosion. Harry is still a very flawed character who doesn't quite understand his journey, but that doesn't keep him from sticking to is core values. That would leave us with no gaps as well.

I still stand by Ron as Iron, just because he seems to be marked as the most masculine and tempermental...which is all Mars to me.

Luna is silver and Hermione Mercury, those are very set for me.

That leave Neville as tin. When Neville is alone or put on the spot, he often retreats to this area of fear and low confidence. But we see Neville shine when put in the DA. With the support of his friends *the other metals* he gains a lot of skill.

Whew....does any of this make sense?

Posted by: becky920 Feb 26 2007, 11:30 AM

There's also the possibility that there are multiple metals. More than one iron, gold, lead, tin, etc., because there are more than one "alchemist." Just a thought.

Posted by: EruditeWitch Feb 26 2007, 11:51 AM

Who's the other alchemist? Is that Dumbledore? Or do you mean in the study of alchemy in general?

Posted by: Lost Centaur Feb 26 2007, 01:57 PM

FWIW...copper and tin alloy to Bronze...a very hard and beautiful metallic alloy. In the ancient world, bronze made for superior weaponry. It continued to be widely used for canon and armaments until a few centuries ago. It still is used to make great large bells.

Perhaps an alliance, if not a love relationship, between the copper figure and the tin could indicate a powerful weapon/warrior/alarm group for Harry.

Posted by: EruditeWitch Feb 26 2007, 02:07 PM

That could be an argument for Ron as Tin..then he and Ginny could unite and maybe do some powerful family stuff...

for lack of a more eloquent phrasing.

Posted by: memyslfnI Feb 26 2007, 02:39 PM

there is a quote somewhere I need to find, but it is basically "You need Gold to make Gold' Which would place, obvioulsy, Dumbledore sqarely in the gold position.



I am torn on the Ron/Tin thing myself. I truly believe Ron is Sulfur and therefore would put him as Iron. I need to look for more info on Iron/Mars (the rue thing is a convincing argument for Ron as Iron./Mars/)

Posted by: Alchemist Apprentice Feb 26 2007, 02:49 PM

ok quick question...If gold needs gold, does that mean DD and the stone? or does it refer to DD and another character?

Posted by: EruditeWitch Feb 26 2007, 02:54 PM

Dumbledore and Nicholas Flamel?

Cute baby by the way!!!!!!!

Posted by: memyslfnI Feb 26 2007, 04:16 PM

I interpreted that as, it is going to take Dumbledore (gold) to mold Harry, to transform Harry into gold

Posted by: EruditeWitch Feb 26 2007, 04:19 PM

Interesting....

That begs the question: IS Harry now gold after HBP, or did DD not finish his job.

Or..

When JKR said "Dumbledore is giving me trouble" while writing book seven...Will he finish his Make Harry Gold quest posthumously.

Posted by: memyslfnI Feb 26 2007, 05:25 PM

I believe that Harry will not reach gold until after the wedding. If Bill and fleur's wedding is the Chemical wedding (I think it is), then this must occur first.

I hope we don't have an "Obi Wan' moment where Harry is asked to remember the force so to speak. the only thing I can thing I can think of is if he is given information , as Prongs Patronus so elequenly put in her essay featured on www.harrypotterseven.com: http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/#static:bookseven/blood

Posted by: Shard Feb 26 2007, 05:47 PM

I wanted to ask a clarifying Question here, Is it Harry as the Alchemist that will defeat LV or as the Philospher's stone? I'm kinda under the impression that Harry is the Stone, that DD was the Alchemist who made or helped guide HArry into being the Stone.

Posted by: EruditeWitch Feb 26 2007, 06:05 PM

I tend to move toward Harry making the stone. The stone representing a repaired wizarding world and a more perfect self. But then agian, your version sounds just as likely.

ACH

Posted by: memyslfnI Feb 26 2007, 06:23 PM

My impressions are that Harry is the Stone. dumbledore, the alchemist is helping mold that stone into gold. The stone starts out as the "first thing" the "prima materia", the "one thing" salt..it has many names but through the alchemical process, is transformed to gold.

Posted by: galadriel12 Feb 27 2007, 06:46 AM

Accio Quote has unearthed nine older interviews of JKR´s from 1998. Most of you will already have read that on the TLC. I have not read them, but TLC gives a few short quotes. She specifically mentions alchemy in one of them.

JKR: To invent this wizard world, I´ve learned a ridiculous amount of alchemy. Perhaps much of it I´ll never use in the books, but I have to know in detail what magic can and cannot do in order to set the parameters and establish the stories´internal logic.

To me, this confirms my suspicion about how and to what she applies alchemy. She is not setting up the whole story, including all aspects, according to a certain alchemical concept. We know that, since in 1998, long after she has planned out the whole story, she is still not sure how much of her knowledge will be used in the HP books. Alchemy was guideline for her to believably create the wizarding world.

Alchemy is important for her:

- to know what magic can or cannot do

- parameters of the wizarding world and magic

- internal logic

Now, that really leaves all possibilities open, and for us the opportunity to analyse and speculate freely.

Posted by: EruditeWitch Feb 27 2007, 11:05 AM

I'm going to copy and paste this, Galadriel. Can I have your permission? Also, you can just go over to the ummm...misguided forums and post for yourself if you want.

Posted by: coach Feb 27 2007, 11:09 AM

Couldn't Harry be the Alchemist and his soul is the stone?

Posted by: galadriel12 Feb 27 2007, 11:44 AM

Posted by: Alchemist Apprentice Feb 27 2007, 01:10 PM

Posted by: memyslfnI Feb 27 2007, 02:04 PM

hahahaha! AL As I was reading Coach's post and wondering myself if this could be true I was leaning towards my opinion being a no, but wondering to myself "How could I explain it"? and "Why do I believe this"?

Alchemically speaking, the stone is not only made up of Soul, but is also made up of the body and the spirit.

Sulfur=spirit
Mercury=Soul
Salt = body.

I always thought in JKR's magical alchemical world, the transmutation to a higher state allows you to create the stone. The stone is a symbol of this higher state of knowledge. It represented more than just the soul. There needs to be a total transformation (including body and spirit) to be able to create the stone.

I certainly could be way off base on this. Its a question I never thought of before! I would like to hear more about this thought Coach! I hope you post more thoughts on this.

Posted by: SillyPutty Feb 27 2007, 03:11 PM

Okay, I am sorry to interrupt but I know next to nothing about Alchemy but I am reading on the Divine Femeine in the Arthurian legends and it was speaking about Alchemy and its connection with the ancient Goddess of all... how the 3 images of the goddess: Maiden, Mother, Hag are represented by the three colours of Alchemy.

Maiden - White
Mother - Red or Red/White
Hag - Black or Black/White

These three women also represent three women in the champions life. I am not sure where I am going with this but I wanted to know if I am reading this passage correctly? I figured this was the best place to ask because supposibly the three goddess also represent three aspects of the chamopions journey?

Posted by: firephoenix Feb 27 2007, 04:21 PM

Posted by: coach Feb 27 2007, 04:31 PM

hahahaha! AL As I was reading Coach's post and wondering myself if this could be true I was leaning towards my opinion being a no, but wondering to myself "How could I explain it"? and "Why do I believe this"?

Alchemically speaking, the stone is not only made up of Soul, but is also made up of the body and the spirit.

Sulfur=spirit
Mercury=Soul
Salt = body.

I always thought in JKR's magical alchemical world, the transmutation to a higher state allows you to create the stone. The stone is a symbol of this higher state of knowledge. It represented more than just the soul. There needs to be a total transformation (including body and spirit) to be able to create the stone.

I certainly could be way off base on this. Its a question I never thought of before! I would like to hear more about this thought Coach! I hope you post more thoughts on this.

Posted by: Shard Feb 27 2007, 04:34 PM

SillyPutty

I have noted the Three women as well, for me I think it's three females that are close to the Hero, in my opnion that being Ginny, Hermione and Luna.

Posted by: SillyPutty Feb 27 2007, 05:29 PM

SillyPutty are you sure that the third is called the Hag? We were referring to the third as the Witch and this is the part that we were debating. I thought it might be Mrs. Figg. We did see her at the beginning of the Black stage (OotP) but not at all in the White Stage.

• "that of the woman warrior who often acts as bodyguard or resourceful companion to the champion."
• also noted as the role of tutor in some stories.
• She is the loathly lady, dark woman of knowledge.
• She guides and warns the champion.
• She battles hard to bring her protege to self-knowledge and responsbile action.
• corresponds with the a male figure idetified as the Provoker of Strife - troublemaker who we can precieve the role of the Sovereignty's guardian

Posted by: PAM2002 Feb 27 2007, 06:28 PM

QUOTE

SillyPutty are you sure that the third is called the Hag? We were referring to the third as the Witch and this is the part that we were debating. I thought it might be Mrs. Figg. We did see her at the beginning of the Black stage (OotP) but not at all in the White Stage.

In my book she is called the Hag or The Black Maiden...
other info

• "that of the woman warrior who often acts as bodyguard or resourceful companion to the champion."
• also noted as the role of tutor in some stories.
• She is the loathly lady, dark woman of knowledge.
• She guides and warns the champion.
• She battles hard to bring her protege to self-knowledge and responsbile action.
• corresponds with the a male figure idetified as the Provoker of Strife - troublemaker who we can precieve the role of the Sovereignty's guardian

Posted by: redshoes Feb 27 2007, 11:33 PM

Posted by: SillyPutty Feb 28 2007, 12:40 AM

Posted by: Snark Feb 28 2007, 01:18 AM

Posted by: madamros Feb 28 2007, 04:09 AM

Posted by: Kidney Pie Feb 28 2007, 11:20 AM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivalent_Exchange

This is an interesting article. I think the laws of equivalent exchange were written for Full Metal Alchemist, but I am not sure. It seems as though they do have their roots in real alchemy. Basically, to make something out of something else, one must lose something of equivalent value. This got me to thinking about Voldemort and why he would have liked to get the Philosophers stone, which FMA can bypass this law.
I think that this is also something the stone is thought of to be able to do in real life, by real alchemists, because FMA had to get the idea from somewhere.


Well according to Full Metal Alchemist it can bypass this law. If it is something to do with real alchemy, then perhaps it too can find it's way into the Harry Potter world, if Jo has studied her alchemy.

You see, Voldemort is losing what humanity he has every time he makes a horcrux, becoming more and more reptillian looking or at least less human. Maybe that is the price he must pay, the exchange he must make. Maybe the stone would have helped him to retain some humanness. There could be more sacrifices he was willing to make, we just are not sure what he has lost. He has perhaps lost quite a bit that we are unaware of at this time.


Also the gate of Alchemy in FMA reminds me of the veil very much. I have never watched this series, so fans of the series here must tell me if I am wrong.



Also interesing as it says this was never shown:

The only component of human transmutation never shown is the extraction of the soul of a deceased human from the gate.

The stone could be used to make a pure body and also get a soul into the body, basically bringing someone back to life. Now Jo says that she will never do this, but maybe the Veil doesn't really represent death, just a holding place for souls. In that case, she wouldn't be bringing anyone back from the dead, since they are not technically dead, just held in some halfway point.


SO could the Philosophers stone be used to create a perfect body and remove a soul from the veil, bringing Sirius back to life?

But the stone was destroyed. And it is also suggested that thousands of people must die to make a stone, as it is souls that give the stone it's power, and that souls are used up sooner or later, so a stone will decay sooner or later anyway, unless repowered.

Actually the FMA stone does not sound very nice at all.

We never learned how the Harry Potter stone was made. We do know that Dumbledore was best friends with Nicolas. If it really required thousands of souls to power the stone, then either Dumbledore is evil too, or he was unaware of what Nicolas did to make the stone. But I can't see Dumbledore not knowing what Nicolas did to make the stone. And the deaths of thousands of people wouldn't go unnoticed. But perhaps Nicolas aquired the stone from Grindlewald or something. But it did say on his card he was the maker of the stone. So the stone in Harry Potter must have been made a different way. I can't see it being made in an evil way. It is interesting to compare it to the stone of FMA though, where that stone required thousands of souls to power it. Maybe this one is powered by love or some other means.


Maybe there is another way of getting souls for your stone, if you have thousands of friends all willing to give a peice of soul for a good cause. Then maybe it would not be evil. I've read other stories in which people are able to share souls or offer up a peice of soul for someone. I've read a story in which someone has no soul, but someone gives them half of theirs. Then they both have half a soul, and each peice regrows into a full soul. So maybe a stone could be made with peices of donated souls I guess. Since there is no stone, maybe Harry and his friends can start one in order to bring Sirius back from the veil, if the veil represents a halfway point, that is, not really death. So they aren't bringing someone back from the dead.
Or maybe Harry himself would fall into the veil, only to be brought back by thousands of friends who all donate some of their soul for the stone. Or maybe the trio figure out how to make a stone or power it in the love room or something.

Anyway, it would be interesting what some of the FMA fans or at least people who have watched this series think about comparing it to Harry Potter. I am not sure if we will see any simularities, but there does seem to be some.

Voldemort can not have a perfect body, he loses his humanity each time he splits his soul. He wanted the stone and there could be more than one reason why he wanted it. It could have helped him to have a perfect body.

There may be a good horcrux, that is, one may be able to use the stone to get their soul out and make a horcrux without killing anyone. Voldemort might have like this, but not for any noble reasons, just it is convenient for him.

The Gate of Alchemy and the Veil seem very simular. I don't know if the gate were just invented for the FMA series of if it has it's roots in real alchemy.

Also when reading about the Full Metal Alchemist series, there is an object like a horcrux that people can make using a Blood seal to bind a soul to an object. Sounds very simular.

Posted by: firephoenix Feb 28 2007, 02:44 PM

Posted by: SillyPutty Feb 28 2007, 03:22 PM

I think I am understanding this... it is sort of since Harry is the opposite of Voldemort, whose soul has been fractured in his journey towards enlightment, Harry's soul stays pure and compelet at the end?

Just trying to understand it...

eta - still thinking on the triple goddess and will post more about it later.

Posted by: memyslfnI Feb 28 2007, 06:32 PM

Bingo Sillyputty!

One of the endproducts, of the creation of the stone, as we all know, is the Elixir of Life. Flamel had it, Voldemort wanted it! Only the very few are worthy of the journey, as an alchemist, to create the stone. Tom Riddle was smart enough, but could not comprehend the journey. He tried shortcuts to become immortal, to reach perfection while Harry, whose only desire is the love of family, was able to hold the stone in PS/SS. Why? Because he was worthy of the journey.

Tom can never be an alchemist because he absolutely cannot sacrifice himself for the love of another. (Dumbledore has done this in HBP) We see Harry, who has this "saving people thing" do this constantly.

I am wondering how JKR will do this, because I believe that Harry will have to sacrifice himself but I do not believe he will die. This is probably what I want to read the most. What wil happen after Harry destroys the final horcrux.
Ooooh! 139 days!

Posted by: davidenglish Feb 28 2007, 06:54 PM

Posted by: redshoes Feb 28 2007, 10:37 PM

Posted by: davidenglish Mar 1 2007, 12:13 AM

Posted by: Shard Mar 1 2007, 12:19 AM

Posted by: hpaddict Mar 1 2007, 12:07 PM

We've got a great alchemy thread already in progress where this will fit quite nicely.

Hold on to your hat - we're going to apparate on over...

A LA PEANUTBUTTER SANDWICHES!

hpaddict - LL Mod



ETA:



I moved/merged a bit late and the post by kidney pie got bumped back. Since I was the one who was tardy, I'll copy their post again so that it won't get left in the shuffle.

Posted by: memyslfnI Mar 1 2007, 01:22 PM

We spoke of the metals and who might be related to what. I found this when looking into Ron's Birthday.

March 1 is the http://www.pantheon.org/articles/m/mars.html or the Feast of Mars.

Could be another clue as to the role of Ron as Iron along with the rue correlation.

Posted by: EruditeWitch Mar 1 2007, 01:30 PM

Oh excellent, M! I am even more convinced now that Ron is ruled completely by mars. He is very symbolic of Iron to me.

Another way this can be true is by looking to what I believe is Ron's character symbolism. Starting at the chess game, I find Ron to be characterized in Knightly ways. What is the principle way a Knight protects and fights? With metal armor and metal swords, which used to be based in Iron.

Posted by: SillyPutty Mar 1 2007, 05:23 PM

Posted by: Shard Mar 1 2007, 05:39 PM

So going with that logic, Harry's Pure soul can destroy Voldemort's 1/7th, Unicorn tainted soul?

In the end Power, Skill and ability will not have mattered, but the fact that Harry's open and accepting and perhaps Forgiving Heart will be key to destroying the impure Voldemort.

Posted by: firephoenix Mar 1 2007, 11:35 PM

Posted by: Shard Mar 2 2007, 12:46 AM

True but then it was Albus who has been his guide, then again I think Harry has had many guides really. Albus however was the one with the master plan on how to set things up. PLacing Harry with the Dursleys for instance.

Posted by: SillyPutty Mar 4 2007, 01:22 PM

Posted by: Snark Mar 4 2007, 09:36 PM

Posted by: memyslfnI Mar 5 2007, 12:50 AM

I look at Luna as the one who is the "anti-Hermione". She shows him the things that Hermione can't. Hermione is logic and cannot look outside the box, while Luna will achieve this role. She could very well be important to HArry in book seven as she can see Thestrals, and also can hear what lies beyond the veil. What that means in the triple goddes theory? I am not sure.

Posted by: SillyPutty Mar 5 2007, 12:56 PM

you make a good point Snark - I guess in some ways, each book has the goddess' in them just as their are HJ steps in each book and Alchemy seems to encompass the whole

Posted by: Snark Mar 5 2007, 01:01 PM

Posted by: memyslfnI Mar 6 2007, 06:03 PM

I thought this was interesting:

The Rosicrucians:

The Rosicrucians were said to follow the teachings of Paracelsus.

Rosicrucian Concepts

1. The origin of the universe is divine.
2. The soul is a spark of the divine consciousness in the universe.
3. The moral law is the basic law of the universe.
4. The soul-force possesses potenially the powers of the divine principle at work in the universe.
5. Life has a purpose. Life is not meaningless.
6. Man has free choice.
7. Since the individual soul is part of the universal soul, man has access to powers he does not know, but which time, knowledge, and experience will gradually reveal to him.

WE have talked about the Chemical Wedding of CR in this thread a few times and I see much of what Dumbledore is trying to teach HArry in these seven concepts. The idea of Choice is paramount. I also see Dumbledore's idea that through knowledge and experience Harry will be able to understand the power of love.

Posted by: scollins Mar 7 2007, 08:45 PM

Posted by: memyslfnI Mar 8 2007, 10:27 AM

Using your idea that would place DH as a book based on intellect. this makes total sense to me. Harry is going to have to take EVERYTHING he has learned from Ron, Hermione, Luna, Hagrid, Dumbledore, Lupin, etc and apply it in the books. If this is the case, I bet we see a lot of "Harry thought of Hermione's words when she..." or Harry remembered Dumbledore's warning..." type of sentences in DH.

as far as PoA and GF I wounder if they are
:

GF Intellect - Harry spent alot of time learning about how to master each task. He mastered the Accio spell and spent alot of time in the library to learn how ot survive each task.

My initial thought is that PoA would be a heart book, because he finds Sirius, but he learns a lot about his past in this book. He learns about the treachery of Peter and the truth is discovered about Sirius' past

Posted by: firephoenix Mar 8 2007, 02:20 PM

Posted by: EruditeWitch Mar 8 2007, 02:51 PM

That is an excellent theory!

Is Harry the Stone, or does he have to make The Stone?

And if he is The Stone or has to make the Stone, then the belief of the ingredients he needs, where does that come into play?

Will that make Ron Sulphur? Or do you not NEED sulphur if the stone is already made?

Posted by: SillyPutty Mar 8 2007, 04:18 PM

so her final sacrifice would of set him on the path of becoming the stone?

Posted by: Narya Mar 8 2007, 05:00 PM

Posted by: firephoenix Mar 8 2007, 11:11 PM

Posted by: memyslfnI Mar 12 2007, 08:39 AM

I had to post this stuff on Celtic alchemy because I thought it was really interesting! I will bold the things that I thought were relevant to HP! (cinnebar is also called Dragon's blood)

Posted by: firephoenix Mar 12 2007, 09:55 PM

Mem - I just love this and with St. Patty's Day fast approching it seems only fitting that we discuss Celtic Alchemy!

The rhythm of Celtic Alchemy reminds me of the music threads that have been started.

Posted by: Snark Mar 12 2007, 10:22 PM

Posted by: memyslfnI Mar 13 2007, 11:10 AM

I was thinking more about the "cult of the cut head" which was referenced in the post about Celtic Alchemy. I am wondering if it is not a refereence to the cut on Harry's head but as a reference to "the Headless hunt"?

Posted by: Pat_Rorrythe Mar 13 2007, 04:52 PM

It was evoqued sin Scribbulus 's topics that Harry's head could have been chosen to be the sixth horcruxe, like the so nammed "fetiche", which was a head of a killed child which was supposed to tell the future thanks to the spirit who could speak through his mouth.
And those heads appears also in the films in the magic bus doesn't it ?

Posted by: Weasle Diva Mar 13 2007, 06:05 PM

I am very much in favor of the Celtic references to alchemy. I believe wherever we can get an alliance on a Celtic, esp Arthurian, Egyptian, Christian, and Alchemical image, we have hit the HP plot paydirt.

Posted by: firephoenix Mar 13 2007, 10:16 PM

Mem, I think you maybe are on to something. We once talked about the mind, boby, spirit and soul having to be together in order to work. They need each other and can not fuction without the rest.

Nearly Headless Nick explans that he choose to leave an imprint on the Earth, because he was to much of a coward to move on. The Headless Hunt members seem to be more respected by the other ghosts. With their soul & mind (head) seperated from their flesh & spirit (body) I wonder if they had the choice to pass through the veil or if they had to stay, because they were no longer whole.

Posted by: becky920 Mar 14 2007, 05:00 AM

Posted by: Alchemist Apprentice Mar 14 2007, 01:01 PM

Wait maybe I am over simplifiling??? But isn't the possibility of the tiara more for Fluer? I mean for the upcoming wedding rather than Ginny?
So what will that marriage be then LV and the werwolf??? or if the tiara is part of the ceremony will Bill's mild reaction to the bite become more intense?

Posted by: SillyPutty Mar 15 2007, 12:25 PM

I am entirely confused by the last page of posts... can someone please clear it up for me? There is a lot of discussion suddenly on the horocruxes, which I am trying to figure out the connection to alchemy.

I thought the tiara was for Fluer as well but then again I do not think that Voldemort would create a horocrux and then leave it in the possession of the owners. So maybe that is why I am confused?

Posted by: Weasle Diva Mar 15 2007, 03:07 PM

The tiara is a Weasley family heirloom. Therefore, it is used at Weasley weddings. After Fleur's wedding, one can assume, it goes back on the shelf awaiting the next wedding.

Since Ginny will probably marry Harry, eventually she would wear the tiara.
Since Hermione will probably marry Ron, eventually she would also wear the tiara.

The alchemy of it, is this - towards the end stage of the process of making a stone, you have the Chemical Wedding. Many of the alchemy drawings have kings & queens who wearing crowns and tiaras.

I have been on the bandwagon that Voldemort does alchemy backwards. Hence, he can't join with anything to produce anything of merit. He is stuck with himself.

So I hope that helps a bit, SillyPutty.

Posted by: firephoenix Mar 15 2007, 07:52 PM

SillyPutty - We are discussing the "cut-head cult" from Celtic Alchemy and how it might relate to Harry Potter.

memyslfnI's March 13 post:

Posted by: memyslfnI Mar 16 2007, 10:08 PM

and in a brilliant email from Arianhrod she writes:

Posted by: SillyPutty Mar 17 2007, 12:04 PM

so another question (just trying to get all this filed into things I already know) the substances that can represent the horocruxes - being 7 of them... would be representative also of maybe the chakras?

Posted by: Pat_Rorrythe Mar 17 2007, 07:24 PM

7 horcruxes in connection with the chakras, yes, but up to now it is difficult to attribute a horcruxe to a chakra :
top of the head : the book of jedusor ? (seat of the memory)
third eye : Harry 's scar ?
throat :
solar plexus : Nagini ? (Boehm pictures shows a snake surroundig the heart)
belly bottom : the ring ?
genital parts :
root : the locket ?

Posted by: SillyPutty Mar 18 2007, 03:52 PM

wouldn't the locket be the neck? maybe we should look at what the horocruxes stand for... and their connections that way?

Posted by: memyslfnI Mar 18 2007, 04:57 PM

I am not sure about the chakras relationship with the horcruxes. I think it might be a stretch, some fit while others we need to struggle to get to make sense.

I am still not convinced that the Weasley tiara is a horcrux. I think that all of them will be well protected and Harry will have alot of work to do just getting to the item that holds it. Look at what happened in the cave.


Alchemically "cabut mortem means desths head (a great use of it in the story is not only the idea of the house elves heads on the wall, but the dark mark as well.) I think its extrememy interesting that Nick wants to join the headless hunt and cannot do so because his head is still attached. We also have the idea that Nick's fear to "go to the light" so to speak and remain an impring on this earth. Would Lord Voldemort, who fears death so strongly do the same thing? As dumbledore says, "Death is the next adventure" yes the headless haunt and Nick do not believe this.


I wonder if there is anything to the beheadding of buckbeak? The caput mortuum is also associated with the black crow as well.

Posted by: Weasle Diva Mar 18 2007, 05:48 PM

The locket could be neck. Or the locket is heart - Lockheart?

Definitely third eye = Harry's scar.

In alchemy, most HP alchemy fans connect Lockheart with the peacock's tail, sometimes called the peacock's fan.

I am slow, but only today I realized that Lockheart, with a peacock's feather, writes to his fans!

***
Firephoenix, I am inclined to think that there are anti-horcruxes as well: The sword, a stone, a cauldron (The Leaky Cauldron!) and a spear. Here are the Hallow items per Celtic lore.

***

Regarding the Cult of the Head, Voldemort is certainly in on the fun with the Death-eater skull sky symbol and tattoo. Caput motem, indeed.

***

I am currently re-reading PoA and find myself very fearful of Hagrid getting the chop. I can see the trial now, with Ron and Hermione using their law studies from book three to try to save Hagrid.

"As long as Hagrid keeps his head this time..." Professor Trelawney's Prediction from PoA p. 320.

But perhaps, we will be led to think that Hagrid got beheaded, when actually they used a Headless hat for fool the bad guys.

***

Also, I can see Voldemort finally defeated once and for all...Harry finally opens up a can of whoop a** on Voldemort by turning loose his two best friends who are...wait for it...LAWYERS!

You see, Ron and Hermione's bickering was all practice for their stint as legal defence attorneys.

Final sentence of book seven:
...And the Dark Lord was vanquished under a stack of legal parchment and there was a hoot of laughter from the kid with the scar.

***

I have been studying the Waterstone of the Wise, a Christian alchemical text.

http://www.levity.com/alchemy/hydrolit.html

Posted by: SillyPutty Mar 19 2007, 12:04 AM

memyselfnadi - okay I see what you mean about the chakras and I guess that answers my questions on it.

Posted by: memyslfnI Mar 19 2007, 04:29 PM

Posted by: madamros Mar 20 2007, 07:09 AM

Posted by: Weasle Diva Mar 21 2007, 02:57 PM

This post sounds like the redneck version of alchemy.

(Since I am half Hoosier and half Kentuckian, I must speak my own language.)

I am striving to get the process broken down into very simple sentences which are the kind of sentences most useful to my brain.

Let me know if I have it wrong.

***

If you start with dragonblood, (alias cinnabar, pure mercury sulfide) and add that to the lead (or tin, copper, iron etc.) and heat it all up, can the "cut to the chase" alchemist go straight to the Chemical Wedding and avoid the blackening, whitening, and reddening and vitriol?

Aren't those steps only needed to get pure sulphur and pure mercury? The lead can't transform to gold until the sulphur and mercury get it together.

I mean, usually the alchemists started with impure sulphur and mercury and applied them to the lead at the very start. Then they had one heck of a time in the lab with black stuff, then white stuff, and finally red stuff all over the place oozing through with that greasy vitriol. You have to dissolve and recombine the chemicals many times. If this isn't tough enough, you have to drop everything and draw little ravens, swans, pelicans, stars, planets, etc. mostly because the lead and mercury poisoning has gotten to you.

(You have to feel sorry for the alchemist's housekeepers because they didn't have Mr. Clean back then.)

So finally you have pure sulphur, pure mercury, and lead. (maybe sprinkle in a little salt if you are going to be all Paracelsus about it). You apply the fire, and the heat makes all the solids become liquid. Then the impurities from the lead leeches out and the whole mess becomes putrid. You have to wait awhile, but eventually you can scoop out the g--k that sank (That's called the Regulus).

During this three day waiting period, the good stuff (the King) putrifies because the yucky impurities are drowning the King. Eventually, the crud (Regulus) is scooped out and the reamaining red liquid becomes a purified solid. Then it is called the Red Stone, Philospher's Stone, or Red Lion.

You can then draw pictures of happy kings and queens wearing crowns holding roses and lilies with suns and moons hanging over them.

So once you have the Stone, you can scrape off some of it. This is a Red Powder. You can sprinkle the red powder, like paprika, into water and it makes an Elixer and use it to heal injuries and/or extend your life.

Or you can sprinkle the red powder on lead, which Shazaam! turns to gold on the spot without all the previous trouble. Quite the time saver.

When you use the powder from the stone, either as a health drink or as a gold-maker, you then can draw pictures of Phoenixes, because, to quote a great alchemist, Larry the Cable Guy, you just "Got 'er Done!"

Posted by: becky920 Mar 22 2007, 08:30 AM

Can I ask you guys a really out-of-the-way question? I need some good basic info websites -- so I can point a friend toward some "Alchemy for dummies" reference points, preferably non HP sites. Any ideas? Levity.com seems almost like too much information to inundate her with at the moment.

Posted by: scollins Mar 23 2007, 09:46 AM

Thanks, Weasle Diva! That was a very clear-cut (and very entertaining ) description of the process. I can't tell you if there are any errors, but I have been trying to "get" alchemy simply from the spiritual aspect, and it helps to have a description of the actual process.

Also, in my readings, I have come across a description of a specific "order" in transforming the lead to gold. I have seen the process described as lead-tin-silver-mercury-iron-copper-gold. Am I understanding correctly that the original lead changes into each of these metals before it becomes gold? Do the books consistently reflect this order as well? I ask because in reading OotP for reading groups I noticed at the end of ch. seven iron bolts, iron keyholes, iron locks, and an iron doorhandle, and I wondered if all of the references to iron were describing Harry's transformation into that "metal" on his way to gold.

Posted by: EruditeWitch Mar 23 2007, 10:23 AM

Posted by: faerenach Mar 28 2007, 12:17 PM

To do with the new book covers:

So do any alchemy specialists have an idea about the symbol on the spine of the new jacket cover? It's a triangle, with a circle enscribed in it, and a line running vertically through from base to vertex. Any hypotheses?

*edited to remove spoiler tags*

Posted by: EruditeWitch Mar 28 2007, 12:30 PM

Well H/Hr shippers say this points to the chemical wedding and that they were right all along.

I think it's a little different.

The center is SUPPOSED to represent the Man/Woman chemical wedding. But we have no figures in the center of the book symbol. Which points to my belief that alchemy in HP has very little to do with Romance.

The sqaure is supposed to represent the elements. So surrounding this chemical wedding is DD, Sirius, and Hagrid in my opinion, as they represent stages and elements in the series.

The triangle is the joining of above and below. Slytherin and Gryffindor? The Deathly Hallows themselves? Harry aligning with someone thought to be evil?


What about you guys?
Do you think this points to H/Hr?

Posted by: mlwl Mar 28 2007, 09:43 PM

No, I never think it points to H/Hr.
Your analysis is a great one, though! I was going to echo your thoughts, but now there is no need.

What am I excited about? IT'S GOLD!!!!! We called that one two years ago!!!

Posted by: EruditeWitch Mar 28 2007, 09:46 PM

I think when everyone gets around to it...someone should point out what has been proven correct on this cover in regards to the predictions you've made.

But of course it's gold!

Posted by: SillyPutty Mar 28 2007, 11:28 PM

Posted by: EruditeWitch Mar 28 2007, 11:35 PM

They say that the triangle and circle is a symbol of the chemical wedding...and they think that wedding will occur between Harry and Hermione.

I think that the absence of the square, as Ari points out, invalidates this as that sort of symbol.

Posted by: KyleJRM Mar 29 2007, 01:08 AM

Posted by: faerenach Mar 29 2007, 07:50 AM

What I think everyone is doing with the symbol is breaking it up to analyze it. I was trying to find a symbol as a whole that closely resembled the one on the spine. But apparently one doesn't exist.

Posted by: Alchemist Apprentice Mar 29 2007, 09:45 AM

Posted by: SillyPutty Mar 29 2007, 12:21 PM

Posted by: EruditeWitch Mar 29 2007, 12:25 PM

Yes there were...I believe it went Wizard, Owl, Dog/Were-something, another Owl (I think), Phoenix?, and Slytherin's Ring...

I'm not sure if I'm correct, but they all mean something to the books.

Posted by: Madame Batwoman Mar 29 2007, 01:03 PM

I'm new here and I just wanted to point out a quick observation.

I think we're going about analyzing the symbol all wrong. Trying to find the meaning of the symbol to the book is, I think, going to lead us on a wild goose chase.

Usually the bits on the spine are things that Harry actually observes. They're objects of significance, not messages in themselves.

I don't think the symbol is telling us anything about the plot. I think it's going to be on something that Harry sees or uses. It could be on a rock in Godric's Hollow. It could be on a goblet or the side of a pensieve. I think it may be the key the trio (probably Hermione mostly) uses to decipher the use or the power of an object.

Posted by: EruditeWitch Mar 29 2007, 01:08 PM

I agree! I think it is marking something important, however.

Maybe it's on the statue of paracelsus near the owlery...and it marks one of the seven passages...
Or maybe since it's representative of the PS it could be marking Flamel's grave or possessions and they may find something important there.

The ring itself wasn't that important, but it was part of a much larger and important concept.

Posted by: Weasle Diva Mar 29 2007, 06:32 PM

Well, the new symbol has a triangle. That would be three points and three sides.

So this means Harry and Hermione, some folks say?

Well, certainly, they continually miss and/or misrepresent one point of the trio. Consequently, I would not trust their interpretation of a triangle too far because missing a point of the triangle could mean missing THE point.

***
For Christians, the triangle means trinity.

An alchemical symbol of fire is a triangle.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/harrypotterforseekers/message/2690

On this website, post #2690 has quite a bit of information about symbols like what was on the cover.

What is fun, considering the Harry/Hermione emphasis of some fans, is that one of the best interpretations of the symbol is King, which is a triangle divided down the middle by a line. And Harry did not get the King theme song! But this is a pretty obscure reference.

Also, looking at the US dollar bill, we see a pyramid, with a eye. That's a triangle with a circle in it. It is called the eye of providence and goes back to the eye of Horus in Egypt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_of_Providence

Posted by: hpaddict Mar 30 2007, 12:36 PM

Modly moment:

Just in case - we're still working out the whole spoiler tag issue when/when not to use them. There is a great thread over in UDH about the symbol - alchemy experts welcome and desired to discuss it there!

http://www.leakylounge.com/index.php?showtopic=42445



hpaddict - LL Mod

Posted by: Pat_Rorrythe Apr 2 2007, 09:17 AM

Just to remind the famous picture of Maier, evoquing that the circle becomes a square, then a triangle then again a circle., at the http://hdelboy.club.fr/atalanta_xxi.html here.
So we have the complete process through the four elements, the spirit-soul-body triad and the circle at the beginning and the end.
On the children's cover, we can see also three people(even four) and a sword, coming out from a circle.
As Harry is carrying through the creature on his back the sword, he could be like the man drawing a circle around the male and female : Ron and Hermione.
Interesting that the text on the site mentions the two conjonctions of the stars : "The flood of water and fire arrives when Godlikes it to create a better World and to finish of it with the old one [...] the sphere, it says, takes fire when all the stars which have courses now, will meet in Cancer [...] the flood will take place when all these stars are gathered in the same way in the Capricorn. The first of these constellations governs the summer solstice and the other the winter solstice…".
This evoques also the two broken prophecies in the ministery (book V): at the solstice will come...And nobody will come after..." said by a young girl and an old bared man, like on the Tarot card XX, the judgement, associated with the multiplication of the powers of the stone.
So, the circle in the triangle migth evoque the process just before the final circle.

Posted by: Lady M. Apr 2 2007, 09:39 AM

Sorry to interrupt the symbol-discussion, but I have a question: has the symbolic meaning of the snake in alchemy been discussed somewhere in this thread (or the older alchemy threads)? I'm sure that topic is not new, but maybe someone could save me from having to read through 18 pages. Thanks!

PS: the only thing I have to add to what you all said about the symbol on the spine is that a triangle standing on its base symbolizes male power.

Posted by: Alchemist Apprentice Apr 2 2007, 10:04 AM

Pat knew you would give some fabulous insight!
You know I completely didn't look at the trio in the circle that way! Now looking at position of the trio within the cicle...it kinda looks like a equalateral triangle within the circle but I may be looking too hard here.
But the sword is a very intresting part of the cover...
Ari and M along with firephoenix were discussing how the title was linked with Arthurian legends long ago...
Yet tying it to alchemy isn't their signifigance with the metals- metal used to make the sword? whether it is GG sword or not?


ooh Lady M
I am pretty sure you can find the answer of te snakes within Ari's essay found in the first two issuses of scribbulus. Also check the HP 101 forum there is an mini- condensed ifo on alchemy there

Posted by: EruditeWitch Apr 2 2007, 10:08 AM

But there is no square and no outerlying circle. To me that means this symbol is not the Mier (sp) symbol, but something else. Do you guys think this symbol is the "chemical wedding" symbol even without the square?

Posted by: SillyPutty Apr 2 2007, 12:19 PM

No, in symbology the symbol has to be exact because with something different then it can have a completely different meaning.

Posted by: Weasle Diva Apr 2 2007, 01:24 PM

Hooray for Pat! Great find!

It is the nature of symbols to take on new meaning every once and awhile. Rowling may have created her own symbol using the Maier one as a foundation.

Posted by: Pat_Rorrythe Apr 2 2007, 03:16 PM

Posted by: Weasle Diva Apr 2 2007, 06:15 PM

I am not up on Egyptology. But the eye certainly is an image that the Egyptians used often. You are probably right.

Trelawney is constantly on about the Inner Eye. Who knew that Trelawney would come in so handy?

On the alchemy web site, the writings from Maier, Atalanta are very interesting. The image Pat found indicates that Rowling may have looked over the various emblems Maier produced.

From what little I have figured out, Maier refers to the Sun and Moon as Apollo and Diana. We have basilisk and spider lore with the Apollo and Diana temples.

Check this out:
Wording from Emblem 15.

Posted by: latecomer Apr 3 2007, 07:45 AM

Posted by: galadriel12 Apr 3 2007, 08:20 AM

Okay, to give my two knuts, as inconsequential as they might be

As intriguing as I find the symbol on the spine, I have a feeling it is like with the many other mythologies and traditions JKR refers to. She borrows and puts her own spin on it. I can imagine she completely invented her own symbol here. Inspired by alchemy and runes and hiroglyphs, but her own nevertheless.

I love the idea of the triangle representing the trio. The circle representing unity, eternity, wholeness etc. The vertical line bisecting the triangle could represent the path Harry (and his friends) have to go.

Has anyone on here already mentioned that the line 'creates' three triangles? A smaller left one and a smaller right one form the big one. Bringing us back to the trio: 'Alchemical wedding' of Ron and Hermione who support their 'child' Harry. All of this is symbolic of course. But we see Ron and Hermione behaving like parents to Harry a lot of the time in the books. He considers them his family. They are Harry´s supporting system. That has to have a meaning, IMO. And I love the idea that JKR created a symbol specifically to represent that. The circle in the middle could represent the foursome (a square transforming into a circle), putting Ginny into the picture as well.

Okay, that was my brainstorming for today.

Posted by: Pat_Rorrythe Apr 3 2007, 09:27 AM

Here is the symbol : Of course, there are differences with maier 's picture. But the ressemblances are there too : the triangle, the circle inside with the symetry given not by the couple but the line dividing the circle.
The triangle means fire, the circle is the ouroboros, also the personnality, the being, and the straigth line l is evoquing the "solve", the ascencion to higher states, while the - means more a fixation, like in the symbols of air and earth : air is seen as a fixation of fire, and earth for water. The mixture of fire and water gives the David's star.
But the circle divided in two with a vertical line is also the Nitrum, a kind of salt.
Another picture gathering triangle, circle and square : to be founded on : http://hdelboy.club.fr/aurora_consurgens.html
Here a re the circle of mercury, the square of salt and the triangle of sulphur.
We could also bring the caducee of Flamel back to see circle of snakes cutted by a vertical line :

So may be a conjonction of JKR with those pictures ?

Posted by: SillyPutty Apr 3 2007, 01:43 PM

Posted by: rotfang07 Apr 4 2007, 12:43 AM

I agree with the post that says Jo has combined several other alchemy signs to create her own. It appears Jo has taken four elements to make up her symbol which will help Harry to conquer Voldermort.
1. The Key of Solomon, which is retrieved from a tomb.
2. The Magic Circle that defines good magic from God and keeps out Evil.
3. The Triangle that traps and contains the Evil Eye or bad magic.
4. The Spear of the Irish god Lugh or that of the Babylonian god Marduk, which was used to defeat the Evil Eye (Irish tradition), or CHAOS as represented by the watery dragon goddess Tiamat.
see
http://altreligion.about.com/library/gloss...triangleart.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spear_Luin
http://www.esotericarchives.com/solomon/ksol.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marduk

Posted by: rotfang07 Apr 4 2007, 04:30 AM

Just a thought
I think Jo uses Alchemy as a main pillar of the series but you need to add:
1. Sumerian-Akkadian-Babylonian magic, astrology, and myths.
2. Hermeticism that includes Alchemy alongside Astrology and Theurgy.
3. Druid and Norse myths and festivals.
4. Medieval esoteric magical practises. (all sources below).

Jo, judging by the covers of Hallows, will puncture the book’s timeline between three major Celtic festivals: Lughnasadh, Samhain/Halloween, and Yule. They all fall on a full moon. The sun, Harry’s constellation symbol, is also important representing a new beginning, but the most significant for Harry will be Halloween/Samhain.

This is because according to the Sumerian-Babylonian-Akkadian (Semitic) calendar Halloween, falling on 31 October-1 November is the cusp between the Planetary Regency of Mars and that of the Sun.

Mars is associated with Iron, the colour red, war, conflict and chaos. The Sun is associated with gold, wisdom, peace and order, as well as a new beginning.
Judging by the covers a significant discovery, Godric Gryffindor’s treasure, is made during the Lughnasadh holiday, still celebrated in Ireland on August 1st. Trial marriages, the harvest season, and bonfires are lit. The festival is named after the Celtic god Lugh who, like Harry, is described as a boy-hero, multi-talented, a healer, associated with the Sun (Harry’s constellation symbol).

Lugh defeated the Evil Eye of Balor (Voldermort), who represented chaos and destruction, using the Spear of Lugh (one of the Four Treasures of Ireland), Ravenclaw’s hallowed object (?).

The sky on the US Deathly Hallows cover is red and gold, denoting the passage from the Planetary Regency of Mars to that of the Sun on Halloween’s end.

A combination of Sumerian-Babylonian-Akkadian and Medieval magic is used to destroy Voldermort. These combine the Key of Solomon (Medieval), with cylinder-sealed amulets and semi-precious stones (Babylonian), together with the magical Spear of the Lugh and Marduk myths (Marduk used a magical spear to stab the water dragon goddess of Chaos, Tiamat, before cutting her in half to create the seas and skies), in which the slaying of Chaos brings order to the world.

If Harry follows this model he will need, at some stage, the Gryffindor Sword, as well as the Spear of Ravenclaw. The Locket of Slytherin, another founder Hallow, is encrusted with precious stones, emeralds, and resembles magical Babylonian cylinder-seal amulets that were used to combat the Evil Eye and demons. Emeralds were used in amulets to cure eye disease, to ward off the Evil Eye, and were said to terrorise snakes so that their eyes popped out !

Harry has this Voldermort horcrux under his control, which indicates at some stage the use of the Key of Solomon (as represented on the spine of the children’s UK edition). The primary Key of Solomon symbol is like a key seen in profile with a dagger/sword as part of the key blade, and the grip part is portrayed as a magic circle within a square surrounded by pentacles. Within the magic circle are the names of the teacher and disciple (ie would be Dumbledore and Harry). But this key acts like a portal to the seven planets (Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Sun, Venus, Mercury, Moon), each of which offers pentacles with magical properties. Those that apply to Harry are associated with Saturn, his Planetary Regent, and the Sun, his constellation symbol.

The most similar symbols to the one’s on the UK spine are Saturn:
4th Pentacle – invokes spirits/information, and retrieves stolen property.
And, the Sun:
4th and 6th Pentacles – makes evil spirits visible (Voldermort will be visible to Harry even under the Invisibility Cloak), and the holder invisible.
7th Pentacle – the ability to escape imprisonment, and to make demons’ powers rebound upon them.

If the Locket contains a Key of Solomon or a black stone of Serpentine, as featured on the UK Adult edition cover, Harry will be protected by their properties; Serpentine’s include protection against snakebite and poison.

According to The Emerald Tablet of Hermes Trimegistus (Hermeticism), only when Alchemy joins with Astrology, and Theurgy (practical magical alchemy), can wisdom be achieved and order maintained. Harry possibly embodies the Alchemy journey (Sun influence) that ends in the gold rays of Planetary Regency of the Sun on 1 November (All Saints Day). Hermione may embody the Astrology aspect (Moon influence) that achieves wisdom by grasping intellectual metaphor. And, Ron, the practice of Theurgy (Stars influence), which requires choosing divine over black magic. Wisdom can only be achieved when all three operate together to reclaim human destiny, which has been stolen by the forces of Chaos and Destruction (see also Marduk myth (Tablet of Destiny), Irish myth (Stone of Destiny). The black stone on the Adult cover may also refer to another stolen Stone of Destiny that Harry has retrieved and returned to its proper place.

The final full Moon, see children’s back cover, is that of Yule, when according to Celtic tradition the new Sun is born and a New Year begins. Perhaps Hogwarts is celebrating the new Sun (light from the door), and Year, following the final defeat of the Lord of Chaos and the flight of his followers.


Sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marduk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeticism
http://www.esotericarchives.com/solomon/ksol.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tablets_of_Destiny
http://altreligion.about.com/library/glossary/symbols/bldefstriangleart.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druids
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spear_Luin

Dictionary of Mythology; (1994), Chancellor Press
Amulets and Talismans; E.A. Wallis (1970), Collier Books
Kabbalah; Gershom Scholem (1974), Keter.

Posted by: Pat_Rorrythe Apr 4 2007, 08:44 AM

Very instersting ! By looking at the child cover, I was thinking also at the cornucopia, or horn of abundance by the part of circle and the abundance of treasure coming out. What do you think rotfang07 ?

About the triangle+circle, Weasle Diva mentionned the eye of Horus.

Posted by: rotfang07 Apr 4 2007, 11:17 AM

Wish I had an answer. I know little of Crowley because he is considered (rightly or wrongly), as a charlatan and sexual predator. The Eye of Horus, apart from his avenging the killing of his father, and the astrological aspects (eyes representing the sun and moon), is all I can find that might be relevant. I stick to the list I made just above
1. Sumerian-Akkadian-Babylonian magic, astrology, and myths.
2. Hermeticism that includes Alchemy alongside Astrology and Theurgy.
3. Druid and Norse myths and festivals.
4. Medieval esoteric magical practises.
Sorry, best I can do !!

Posted by: EruditeWitch Apr 4 2007, 11:25 AM

I would say 2,3,4 are very likely...but I haven't seen much Near Eastern influences in JKR's writing and symbolism.

I think Celtic ceremonies are VERY likely. JKR said once that she tried to focus on the English Mythology as it is very underused.

Excellent info, Rotfang!

Posted by: ePhoenix Apr 4 2007, 11:37 AM

I think the symbol on the UK childrens book cover is a triangle with the greek letter Phi (Ф) in it... if I could coin a phrase... a Phiangle
! Phi is a mathematical constant that is known as the "Golden Proportion" or "Golden Number". Phi appears in geometry, astrology, nature, paintings, and loads of other things...See here for more details... http://goldennumber.net/geometry.htm
The golden number was thought to be found by inextricably linked with the construction of the Alchemical Hemetic Seal (See Links Below).

http://altreligion.about.com/library/glossary/symbols/bldefshermeticseal.htm
http://altreligion.about.com/library/glossary/symbols/bldefsgoldenrectangle.htm


If this is true gold resides within the triangle (mind, body and soul), which seems to me to confirm that Harry will attain Gold status from finding things within himself (through lessons he has learnt along the way).

Also I was was thinking the snake on the other cover looked like an Ouroboros. (See details here http://altreligion.about.com/library/glossary/bldefouroboros.htm).

Posted by: Pat_Rorrythe Apr 4 2007, 12:04 PM

Posted by: rotfang07 Apr 4 2007, 07:54 PM

It's this one from the list
http://www.esotericarchives.com/solomon/ksol.htm
Unfortunately you have to scroll for a bit, but there is also a list in red on right to choose from.

Posted by: memyslfnI Apr 5 2007, 04:43 PM

found an image that I believe is the symbol on the spine. It is from the piece "Alchemy and Symbols" by M.E. Guidewell.

close-up



whole chart

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/kdevoe/fullchart.jpg

I have referenced this chart for years and came across it when the books came out again. the symbol is that of red fire. What is interesting is if red fire in alchemy is the same as the devine spark, or devine fire that Pat R. has mentioned many moons ago. it also is called sacred fire I believe but pat would know more.

there is this from paracelus:

Posted by: Pat_Rorrythe Apr 5 2007, 05:26 PM

About tickeling a dragon, HPB or Helena Petrovna Blavatsky uses the sentence : "do not tickle a cat which is asleep" and she mentions some peolple who tried to follow the path of enligthment, the thesophy she was teaching. Apparently, those people let the kundalini coming up but they could not master it and they become murderers, thieves or sexually agressives. At the beginning they were full of good intentions and finally made horrible things. This migth inspire writers for magic stories....

Memyslfn1, the triangle you mentionned has no bar in the circle. Ephoenix spoke about the letter phi which is a circle cut with a bar, the gold number (1,6....). Is there a link between that number and a triangle ? I saw that the golden number is used to draw pentacles (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentacle)

Posted by: HP Theoretician Apr 5 2007, 05:28 PM

Wow, what a great post memyselfnI! That is really excellent!
I was just looking at your table of achemical symbols, and on a side note, does anyone else think that the Death's Head symbol looks a bit like the seventh rune? Does anyone else think they are connected?
NB: Sorry if this is a bit off-topic, but I'm not quite sure where else I should post this

Posted by: The Azkaban Dietitian Apr 10 2007, 01:32 PM

I had a bit of luck (I think) today when I ran across this allegory which centers on the Mystic Tower. I believe that there is a intricate connection between the symbol on the spine of the UK edition, but I also believe that there is a lot of detail which may have inspired JK Rowling for the Harry's journey through the Spirit World. I've bolded certain parts for emphasis on what I thought pertained to the story and cover art that we know thus far. Enjoy!

Posted by: Weasle Diva Apr 12 2007, 05:29 PM

Wow! There are so many good points being made here! That is a lot to think about Azcaban Dietian with you Mystic Rose quote.

Good find on the Sacred Fire, memyselfni. The Divine Spark is also the Holy Spirit in Christian theology.

I have been lurking in an alchemy thread with people who are actually interested in the chemistry of it all along with the philosophic aspects of alchemy and they had this quote:

Posted by: redshoes Apr 15 2007, 04:53 PM

Interesting discussion of the spine symbol.

Is it too late to bring in some comments on John Granger's latest book, the one published in March 2007? I assume everyone knows that he has reverted to his original idea that Harry will be alone and Ron and Hermione are together.

I decided to examine the book as you would any other scholarly, academic work, which means considering sources and methology. So I apologize if this is a bit dense at times.

John Granger, Unlocking Harry Potter: Five Keys for the Serious Reader

Granger’s new book was published in March 2007, although much of it is material repurposed from his Website. He devotes three chapters to alchemy in HP, in which he again fully supports Ron and Hermione being together. However, he has no use for Harry/Ginny. He dispatches the Chocolate Ship in just two sentences:

Posted by: EruditeWitch Apr 17 2007, 04:54 PM

Your essay brings up an interesting point.

but first I'd like to say that I've never read Granger. I've really been more into Flamel and Paracelsus when looking into alchemy. I wish I had more time to consider what you've written, or even more time to think on what Granger says. However, I don't. I will do so later on tonight, because a few points you've brought up really sparked something in me.

But let me ask you, have you ever read why JKR like TLWH, Emma, and Manxmouse? She does not cite literary alchemy at all. She says she likes TLWH for the plain but vain heroine. So it's characterization that has her most fascinated. In Manxmouse, she again points to one of the main characters as her reason for liking the book. Finally, she says the thing she liked most about Emma was how deluded the characters were.

So she likes the unique characterization of these books. As she said in 2000 good books don't follow a formula. She isn't choosing these books because of their astute adaptation of literary alchemy...it's not their formulas. It's their characterization that gets her going. So ultimately, characterization will be the driving force behind a character's decision..not a formula.

I'm not saying she's not using alchemy, it's just very clear to me that we shouldn't apply it in so many ways. Especially romance.

I'm going to do some thinking on the Luna thing. You've brought up some interesting point on her I think I can associate with my beliefs on her future.

Posted by: ePhoenix Apr 19 2007, 11:46 AM

......

...The effects of the Secret Fire however, and not its re-distributive effects on the Vital Energy, can create the following phenomena:

QUOTE

.....The energy can reach the top of the head in a flash of light.....

We have spoken about the chakras a dozen times in this thread and its connection to alchemy. well here it is! Harry suffers through these fits when he is dreaming or shis scar hurts? Is this the energy in Harry that we see preparing him for the "liberation of the sacred fire"?

Is the coiled serpent a reference to the Hogwarts motto "Never tickle a sleeping dragon"?

more on this from Ari's source:

QUOTE

.....
This ‘zigzag’ of Creation is called the “Lightning Flash”. The return of energy from dense matter, back through the various stages, Sepherith, and Worlds of Creation is known as the “Path of the Serpent” because of its reverse, or complimentary ‘zigzag’ nature back up this diagram called the Tree of Life.
For the alchemist, somewhere between the third and fourth level, or sphere of creation, energy takes on the characteristic that will allow for the formation of matter at some future state, or level ten. This energy is called Prima Materia, Chaos in the Bible, Spiritus Mundi (Spirit of the Earth), and others.......

The symbol is sacred fire! He has just described Harry as salt with a lightning bolt scar!! It is the path of the serpent!

Posted by: firephoenix Apr 19 2007, 10:10 PM

redshoes - Thank you for the lesson on John Granger. Would this be the same John Granger that paired Hermione and Ron in his first book? Yes, and he went as far to say that the would be the ones married in the Chemical wedding. Well at least now I know why I distain Mr. Granger. I am a Jung girl.

Posted by: ePhoenix Apr 20 2007, 04:14 AM

redshoes - Thank you for the lesson on John Granger. Would this be the same John Granger that paired Hermione and Ron in his first book? Yes, and he went as far to say that the would be the ones married in the Chemical wedding. Well at least now I know why I distain Mr. Granger. I am a Jung girl.

QUOTE(ePhoenix Posted Today @ 11:46 AM )

I love the Divine fire concept. Fascinating stuff. I also think that the start and end of the path, coincide with the cycle of Voldemort's end. Afterall the deconstruction of LV is the source of the "flash of light at the top of the head" of the lightning bolt that sends Harry on his way along the path, and I think the path will end with the reconstruction, and final total destruction of LV. Do you think LV follows the path of the snake in reverse?

I believe that Voldemort is the Anti Alchemist and is doing the work backwards.

QUOTE

I agree that the characterisation is the most important thing, and slightly off topic, JK does seem to be a bit of a Jane Austen fan. Mrs Norris is exactly like the Mrs Norris character in Mansfield Park, you mentioned Emma in your references above, and I think that there will be a D'Arcy-like change of attitude in Book 7 about Snape. Not necessarily that he has improved in essentials, but that our further knowledge of him will improve our opinion of him.

Not off topic at all. Jane Austen is one of the writers that inspired JKR to write a story based in Alchemy. I do not see the Darcy connection at all though. Darcy was a good man that did stupid things. Snape is knowingly mean.

Posted by: Norris Apr 21 2007, 10:59 PM

Posted by: galadriel12 Apr 22 2007, 10:56 AM

Posted by: Pat_Rorrythe Apr 22 2007, 04:05 PM

Posted by: Norris Apr 22 2007, 10:27 PM

Posted by: firephoenix Apr 23 2007, 01:44 PM

Pat R. - I agree with everything you said, but I wanted to comment on this part further;

Posted by: Pat_Rorrythe Apr 23 2007, 03:42 PM

IMO, It is a mistake to try and classify Harry. In SS he starts out as lead and in DH he will become Gold. In all the other books he was different metals. So to say he is one metal or the other is wrong - He is all metals.
Harry is also the living Sorcerer's Stone. It is within him the chemicals are mixed and the reactions achived. Harry is far greater then just one chemical.
The shippers will do as they please and believe what they must to get the out come they desire. ALAS! As Ginny pulled Harry from the true path so will the study a subject to prove a point you already have your mind set on.

Posted by: firephoenix Apr 23 2007, 07:41 PM

Bonjour Pat!

It is really hard for me to debate you when you start speaking French! All my brain thinks is, "Say my name!" Americans! Really!

Posted by: EruditeWitch Apr 24 2007, 12:29 AM

All of this really goes in one ear and out the other. But there are some simple concepts of alchemy I can grasp.

The three elements, I'm with Galadriel here. I think that they are BEST represented by Hagrid, Sirius, and Dumbldore, which would make sense when looking at the theories regarding the stages of Harry's journey and their deaths.

Perhaps Harry will have to combine the love and experiences of these three elements to become gold. He does learn and change with each one.

I also think Harry has been each metal it takes to become gold.

So to me, Harry is trying to become gold. Is he trying to become the philosopher's stone?

Also, I don't think that JKR has written her book to the strictest sense of any specific alchemical formula. She doesn't seem like an author who's going to follow some archaic rules. I agree with Pat, if this was the point he was trying to make. That this use of alchemy is a metaphor. That nothing is specific, that people represent things and roles, but that this roles can be multi-functional and bend to the whim of the author, not the rules.

Especially when Applying literary alchemy. An alchemy not proven to be used by the author, and one that has very stringent rules regarding characterization. Something that's not in line with JKR's writing style.

Posted by: galadriel12 Apr 24 2007, 06:23 AM

Posted by: Pat_Rorrythe Apr 24 2007, 11:30 AM

[quote name='galadriel12' date='Apr 24 2007, 01:23 PM' post='1192928']
[quote name='EruditeWitch' post='1192739' date='Apr 24 2007, 12:29 AM']
The three elements, I'm with Galadriel here. I think that they are BEST represented by Hagrid, Sirius, and Dumbldore, which would make sense when looking at the theories regarding the stages of Harry's journey and their deaths[/quote]
This reminds me the divisions between ancient greek alchemists : do they focus onto processes or onto the results ? Is the phenix representing the final process or the achieved result ? These are finnally two aspects of the same reality.
About classifying the trio, I think it is possible if we think of the microcosm beeing like the macrocosm. We could see the process at many levels : Harry's one, the trio one, the whole school one, the sorcerers' one. This hitted me in book IV : we can see the conjunction of ennemies as a general thema : Harry and Ron (after the jalousy of Ron), Harry and Cedric, Harry and Voldemort (and of course the hug of Harry and Hermionne before the hunt for dragon's egg even if they do not look like ennemies).

Posted by: firephoenix Apr 24 2007, 10:24 PM

Posted by: galadriel12 Apr 25 2007, 06:15 AM

Posted by: memyslfnI Apr 25 2007, 12:28 PM

Posted by: theredwitch Apr 25 2007, 02:21 PM

Posted by: Pat_Rorrythe Apr 25 2007, 04:11 PM

If Harry was marked by Voldemort, Ginny was possessed by Voldemort also, so they both share a special relation to the Dark Lord, and both are equal by the possession of LV.

QUOTE(firephoenix @ Apr 25 2007, 03:24 AM)
I agree with you and if one classifies Harry as something then Ginny would have to be that too. JKR, in the M.A. & E.S. interview, says that it was important to make Ginny Harry's equal in every way. Then there is Neville, the boy that might have been. Since he had just as much chance of being the "chosen one" wouldn't that make him the same element, symbol or chemical?


If Ginny has to be classified like Harry what can it be ? If Ginny is the new body, she can resist to fire. The new body is seen as the ashes who survived from the fire of putrefaction, and it is the gold hidden in saturne. The book of El Habir says : "The Red (means the final process) exists and appears only in these precious ashes". So sulphur and new body can resist to the fire.

About the classification of Black-Albus-Rubeus, alchemists says that the color of each stage is the same than the elements : black body, white spirit, red soul. Too simple ?

Posted by: galadriel12 Apr 26 2007, 05:54 AM

Posted by: memyslfnI Apr 26 2007, 08:11 AM

From what I have read White is associated with salt

Posted by: galadriel12 Apr 26 2007, 11:09 AM

I would not classify sirius as salt I would classify him as the symbol of the Black Stage to Harry culminating at his death. Dumbledore who is the white stage for Harry, I believe was on his own journey to gold which he achieved at his death (being a partner to flamel would make him worthy of the journey) We now go into the red stage with hagrid as the symbol for this. I wouldn't put him as sufur though. I still would place Ron in that role. With hermione as mercury. to me I guess it just doesnt make sense to have all these heavenly substances flitting around the story. We are forgetting that mercury and Sulfur are the fixed and the volitle whick have to be resolved and combine. We never see dumbledore and Hagrid combatting each other. There doesn't seem to be in my mind any fixed and volitle there at all. (Unlike ron and hermione)

So in a nut shell, I guess after my vacation from the alchemy thread (LOL!) I am not sure how the classifications changed from Harry, Ron and Hermione as the three hevenly substances that must synthesize to make the stone to hagrid, Dumbledore and sirius?