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Posted by: ravenclawz Jun 19 2009, 06:24 PM

This has been bothering me for quite some time. I'm a fan of the Harry Potter Series, and I've admired the open-minded views exhibited throughout the series, but why is there no mention of any religion at all in the books?

I mean, the only thing religious-related we see is Christmas and Easter (which have become more cultural holidays rather than religious what with commercialism) , which is seemingly celebrated by all.

Why not have students at school practice other religions? Like Judaism or Hinduism (by the Patels). Maybe even an atheistic character. She has characters of all races, different genders, sexual preferences (with her announcement concerning Dumbledore) and backgrounds, but not a single world in her novels is specifically concerned with religion (correct me if I'm wrong).

Since the message of acceptance and tolerance is a prevalent one in the book, you would think that she would include characters of different religious beliefs, wouldn't you?

What are your thoughts on this? Should J.K. Rowling have included religion in her books? Why?

Posted by: red_wych Jun 19 2009, 07:34 PM

I truely love that there was NO Religion in the books. The complete lack of religion was refreshing! It made everything simply simple. I believe it would have put restrictions/ limits on the books and story lines. Magik is limitless and was cept that way!

Posted by: HulaHula22 Jun 19 2009, 07:50 PM

Perhaps having absolutely no religion in the series is the best way to have acceptance/tolerance throughout the books.

Yes, it is possible that she could have included characters with all different religious backgrounds like she did with race, ethnicity, etc. but it would have immediately summoned the question: Do their familys accept their children studying magic? Jo was more focused on analyzing socio-economic prejudices and political issues.

Tossing the religious issue into the mix might have been more than she wanted to deal with. It certainly would be for me!

Posted by: ShanksForte Jun 19 2009, 08:36 PM

For several reaosn's probably:

1) So the books wouldn't be remembered as "a children's book that tackled religous themes."

2) So the books won't seem exploitive of religious beliefs.

3) Because it's easy for the subject of religion to become a biased\forced issue in books.

4) To make it more available to a wider audiance. A book with strong Jewish themes wouldn't have such a wide appeal, for example.

Posted by: Zoom Jun 19 2009, 09:59 PM

It's a can of worms. People being who they are, NOBODY could be content. Someone would always be PO'd that their religion was either misrepresented or not represented at all.

She'd have gotten a LOT more criticism for including religion than leaving it out.

Posted by: cooncatbob Jun 20 2009, 12:32 AM

Once you introduce religion where's the dividing line between what is magical and what is divine.
While there's no mention of God there is also no mention of Satan.

Posted by: Kirsikka Jun 20 2009, 02:58 AM

That's an interesting idea, actually.

I personally think it's better that way, after all, it's a fantazy book, not a bible or something like that.

From the other hand, I see the whole "blood status" as religions in some kind of a way, there are purebloods, half-bloods, muggles - if you're creative you can treat them as some kind of religions.

Anyway, it's up to you how you "translate" what's written in the book to your words, to your own world.

I find this lack of religion perfectly fine, I think readers would feel discriminated (I know I would) 'cause their religion is not the same as 99.9% of the characters in the book.

In any case, it's individual to you.

Posted by: Laura W Jun 20 2009, 03:02 AM

The Harry Potter books can - as we have seen over and over again on LL - be interpreted in many ways. Theologically, ethically, morally (with no religous over or undertones), philosophically or just as a great yarn populated with wonderful, memorable characters facing trials and tribulations and triumphs that can easily be identified with by people of all ages and backgrounds in the Real World.

Religious Christians see all kinds of Christian symbolism/references in the HP series, pagans see all kinds of pagan symbolism/references, etc. How wonderful that these novels can be so universal and speak to so many diverse groups! (One of the best examples of this is the King's Cross chapter of DH. The author purposely wrote it such that each reader could see it taking place wherever they choose.) That is exactly what Jo has said she wanted.

And it's all there, of course. She has incorporated so many different traditions, legends, philosophies and ethical messages in this series - very deliberately, I believe. Jo herself is a self-professed Christian but she obviously realizes the value of all stories and belief systems which do not have hate as their basis (ie - LV's religion has hate of "the other" as its basis). Within the seven books, there are loving, respectful tributes to the stories and the thought-processes of Christianity, the numerous types of paganism, secular-humanist-rational ethical thought, etc. Book Seven might be a bit more Christian-focused, but that is only one of seven books.

Harry's journey and it's final outcome is mirrored in the tales of MANY belief systems - not just Christianity by a long shot. Even in the religious stories of the North American Indians. A hero or heroine "dying" and coming back to life to save the world (often to provide a good harvest upon his or her return) is as old as the ancient Egyptians and Osiris. (In that case it represented the cyclical near-drying-up of and the overflowing of the Nile River.) As is the mythology of a hero "returning to life" in order to fight a vital battle.

Jo says that Hogwarts is a multi-faith school and, at no time, is the religion of any of the students, teachers or other HP characters mentioned. We can assume that Anthony Goldstein is probably Jewish, that the Patil sisters might well be Hindu, that the Irish Seamus Finnigan could be Catholic. (I like to think that Minerva McGonagall is a Scottish Unitarian, but that's just personal prejudice. (heh, heh)) But Jo has left that up to each reader's imagination. The important thing to her is that none of these children are discriminated against because of their religion or lack thereof. In the wizarding world, apparently, it is blood-status that is the main fodder for bigots.

One of my favourite non-academic essays on the HP series is one which was written by Nathan Thornburgh in the Apr.28, 2008 issue of Time Magazine. It is entitled "You Didn't Know Harry Potter Was Jewish?" and is quite delightful (at least I find it so). (Just go to www.time.com and type in the title of the article as your search term to read it.)

Another Jewish reference Jo uses is Nick's Deathday Party. I once saw a play about this. As I recall from the play, Jewish culture celebrates the day a loved one dies. The ones who knew him or her have a special meal and speak of the person. How wonderful of Jo to incorporate this! I think i like the idea of the kind, popular Sir Nicholas de Mismsy-Porpington being Jewish. And none of the Gryffindor students have any problem with that. (Were it only so in the real world!)

Jo is a Christian. There is Christian symbolism in her books. But there is also much Greek and Roman and Norse mythology. There is also the philosophy and ethical arguments spoken by the great rationalist non-theological thinkers and philosophers throughout time. And many other influences which I am not educated enough to recognise.






Laura





"At least as much as they've been attacked from a theological point of view," she (JKR) says, the books "have been lauded and taken into pulpit, and most interesting and satisfying for me, it's been by several different faiths." The values in the books, she observes, are by no means exclusively Christian, and she is wary of appearing to promote one faith over another rather than inviting people to explore and struggle with the hard questions.

Rowling's religious agenda is very clear: she does not have one. "I did not set out to convert anyone to Christianity. I wasn't trying to do what C.S. Lewis did. It is perfectly possible to live a very moral life without a belief in God, and I think it's perfectly possible to live a life peppered with ill-doing and believe in God."

Time Magazine (Dec. 31, 2007)






edited by laura w to rearrange a few sentences

Posted by: Anna-leden Jun 20 2009, 02:38 PM

The lack of religious mention in the books hadn't crossed my mind at all until this thread and I'm pretty much in agreement with everyone else.
Fans of the Harry Potter series tend to pick over any and all themes in the books that bringing in such a provocative topic as religion almost seems like asking for trouble. The books have been written in such a way that there (I feel at least) is no need to mention anyone's faith or lack of as it's open to interpretation.

Posted by: The Crimson Artist Jun 20 2009, 07:07 PM

I agree. HP reminds me of many things (in particular, Disney films) where you can see what you want to see without having any particular belief shoved down your throat--and thus indicating its superiority.

Also, we know that Rowling gave many characters different races, religions, etc. But they're never important enough to the plot or the reader to be mentioned.

Posted by: Pleione Jun 20 2009, 10:19 PM

everyone.

The role of religion has been a hot topic throughout the HP fandom and on Leaky. Here in OB we have the following threads on specific faiths or practices in the books:

http://www.leakylounge.com/Christian-Symbolism-Har-t56012.html

http://www.leakylounge.com/Pagan-Celtic-Harry-Potte-t1171.html

http://www.leakylounge.com/Buddha-Harry-Potter-Na-t52805.html

http://www.leakylounge.com/Wizards-Religious-t30402.html

http://www.leakylounge.com/Jewish-Values-Harry-Pot-t31887.html

Rather than closing or merging this thread (there's too much good discussion!), I'll ask everyone to please keep the thread going in the direction it is now, which is about the role of religion in general in the books and why JKR did or didn't include it.

For discussion of whether the books promote a particular faith or practice, please use one of the threads linked to above, or start a thread if the faith or practice you want to discuss doesn't have a thread.

Thank you and happy posting.

Pleione
LL Moderator

Posted by: Hermy-one Pince Jun 21 2009, 01:23 PM

That's one of the many reasons, why I loved Rowling's books from the very beginning. Among wizard bigots, it's the blood status segregating people while race, religion etc don't matter.

Posted by: Aliyah95 Jun 21 2009, 03:32 PM

If the HP series had one more subplot, it would explode!

She already had the sacrifice and coming back to life themes, so religion was already covered in a more hidden way.

Posted by: Min Jun 23 2009, 01:15 AM

Im glad there wasnt religion in Harry Potter - plots involving religion are so old fashioned...

Posted by: lupinwandcaster Jun 28 2009, 09:17 PM

Religion would have ruined the story and made it even more a target of criticism by Christians.

Posted by: xxjennydxx Jul 5 2009, 07:31 AM

I think you're mostly wrong there. I believe that if there were Christian characters, then perhaps those Christians with strong anti-HP feelings could relate to the books more, and it would make it more realistic, and those characters could have several new ways of interpretation.

Also, HP is only targeted by a certain small number and type of Christian, so Christians in general do not target HP. I know several Christians that read and enjoy HP, and I came across HP in a Church school, despite definitely not being Christian myself.

I do read this sort of critism, as I find it fascinating, and shall be doing a LOT more of it over the next few months. I also agree with some people above, saying that people have their own interpratations, and they can adapt that for themselves.

I am not strictly relgious, but as a Theology and Religious Studies student, I can definitely see religion in there, and this is not just limited to Christianity. I guess that someone of a certain religion or faith and see parts of it associating to their own faith and religion, as they are familar with it, and therefore, can relate to it more than other relgions and faiths.

I can see why Christianity is 'highlighted' more than other religions, especially in DH, due to large numbers of christians, and Christianity being such a big, worldwide, and very diverse religion, when it comes to speaking about HP and religion, but I believe that all religions can and should be taken into account.

I also believe that if religion was mentioned explicitly, or in good detail, then it perhaps would of added to the story, depending on what was included. Religion is a global issue, and almost everyone has relgious beliefs or views, whether they believe in deities etc or not.

I also think the use of non-denominational or specific relgious texts and words in the weddings and funeral was very interesting!

Posted by: BeAchL0veEr05 Jul 29 2009, 11:05 AM

I wouldn't have minded religion in the books, actually. I don't think she should have based her book solely on religion, or had it one of the main topics. I will agree with some other people above that religion makes books complicated. What if Harry is Catholic, and you are not? What if Harry doesn't have a religion and you do, or vice versa? However, I would like to add that I don't think it's the religion that makes the book complicated, I think it's the people reading about the religion. For some reason, people don't like reading or talking about religion.
I'm writing a book actually, and I put in the fact that the students went to a Catholic school. But then I started thinking, is it important to the plot? Maybe not, but it was important to me. In the end, I decided I did not want to offend people or make them uncomfortable, so I left religion and Catholic schools out. Will I make one of the characters say, "I went to Church."? Maybe, but I won't state what Church it is or what religion it is, and the reader can decide.
Lastly, I would like to say that I think JKR did a very good thing with the seventh book. For all people who are religious, they could recognize that Harry went to a purgatory like place and that the quotes on the gravestones were from the Bible. But for people who are not religious, Harry could have just died, and those quotes were just normal ones. She gave a nod to religion, but it was so subtle it didn't have to be passed off as anything religious.

Posted by: JohannMdlAmerica Jul 29 2009, 11:19 AM

No religion?

I will simply point out the epitaph of James and Lily Potter:

You'll find it in Paul's First Letter to the Corinthians, Chapter 15, Verse 26.

There are folks who study the theology of literature, and who have already placed JKR in the same category as Tolkein or CS Lewis: A writer of allegory to the Christian Gospel.

Granted, there is limited overt declaration of faith, but it's very much there, as a thematic.

Posted by: wordsaremagic Aug 5 2009, 09:38 AM

Well, I am going to have to disagree with the assumption built into the question of why there is no religion in HP.

I believe that the septology is awash in religion, that the entire story is essentially a religious story. Rowling herself has said that the Christian elements in her story are "obvious."

No, it is not a religious allegory; it is far better than that. No, it is not a didactic religious tract trying to convert you to some specific denomination; it is better than that. It is, however, a piece of classic English literature filled with literary religious symbols that have a history going back as far as, well, as far as history itself: unicorn, phoenix, golden gryffin (gryffin d'or), philosopher's stone (all of these are Christ symbols in the history of English literature); then we have things like "so, this is what it is like to die" followed three days later by waking up, or "the last enemy to be destroyed is death"--and then there all the wonderful name choices (King's Cross, for example). I could go on and on, but as a beginning I would recommend How Harry Cast his Spell by John Granger or perhaps Lord of the Hallows by one of Leaky's own, PhoenixWeasley.

To me, the assertion that there is no religion in HP is similar to an assertion that there is no beach because of all the sand and water in the way.