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Posted by: lupinrocks Mar 11 2006, 09:04 PM

My son and I just finished reading OotP again, and he asked me a question that I have no answer for. I am hoping that someone here may have an answer for him.

Since Sirius was an animagus, is it possible for him to turn into Padfoot and come back through the veil? I didn't think so, but you never know with magic. I don't remember seeing anything about it before.

Any thoughts?

Posted by: Narya Mar 11 2006, 11:03 PM

As this topic deals with theorising about Sirius's return from beyond the Veil, it will be moved to Magical Theory.

Mobilithreadus!

Narya
Leaky Mod

Posted by: Sterling_Scufflegrit Mar 11 2006, 11:53 PM

Unfortunately for all the Sirius lovers out there, JKR has confirmed that SIrius is indeed dead, and won't be returning.

Posted by: museofhistory Mar 12 2006, 05:39 AM

*stuffs fingers in ears*

I'm more delusional than a diehard H/Hr shipper when it comes to this. I keep convincing myself that she's left loopholes in that the Veil is never fully explained, the living can hear voices etc.

Also, Sirius' is the most incomplete story arc in the books and will just seem like Pointless And Sudden Murder Of One of Harry's Father Figures Part Deux if left at what's in OOtP.

Posted by: Spinks Mar 12 2006, 09:42 AM

If he can't come back as a human, why would he be able to come back as a dog? If one of his forms is dead, you can count on the other one being dead, too. They were both the same Sirius.



That's kind of the point, though. When people die in battles, it often is pointless and sudden, and death doesn't avoid loved ones. Jo Rowling wanted to get that across.

Posted by: lupinrocks Mar 12 2006, 09:25 PM

I realize that the animagus Sirius and the human Sirius are one and the same, but there was an interview recently that Jk said that we would see Sirius again. I was hoping that someone had some kind of idea as to how.

Posted by: memyslfnI Mar 12 2006, 10:09 PM

i personally do not see Sirius coming through the veil..We do however have the two-way mirror that some have speculated Sirius will use to communicate with Harry. My personal opinion is that the mirror is useless. It drives home the point that Harry did not listen, or did what he was advised to do. If he had practised closing off his mind, or even stopped two seconds to really think about the situation instead of being so darned quick to act on emotions, he would have remembered the mirror. A terrible and horrible example of Harry's emotions getting the best of him.

There has also been speculation that Sirius will be a sort of "spirit guide" for Harry if he goes through the veil with LV in the final battle in book seven. Sirius could indeed show him the way back...I. myself am a sucker for happy endings, so I hope that if, as some have speculated, that Harry and LV fall through the veil, Sirius will lead him back..

Posted by: museofhistory Mar 12 2006, 10:16 PM

My issue, though, is that she already did. Repeatedly.

I think she's a better writer than to use an identical set-up at the end of consecutive books. In HBP, it was entirely different as DD's death, although itself instantaneous, wasn't all that surprising considering all the 'passing-of-the-torch' clues leading up to it. That's why I'm perfectly happy to accept that he's dead as the proverbial dodo despite being one of my other favourite characters.

Sirius' death just grates. And I don't think it's any emotional feelings I have that are clouding the issue, more a deep-seated, nagging thing based in my intellectual and literary instincts.

Posted by: Spinks Mar 13 2006, 10:38 AM

And people die pointlessly and suddenly in battles. Repeatedly.

Another point is that it's not always the 'new guy' (the random underling venturing on to the mysterious planet with the captain) who dies. We didn't actually see Lily and James die and they weren't characters we knew. Cedric wasn't a character we knew, even though his name might have been mentioned (I can't remember) in earlier books. Sirius's death stopped readers relying on death only claiming the 'disposable' characters or the ones who must die dramatically, like Dumbledore and Lily and James. Sirius was a different kind of pointless and sudden death, if only because he was a beloved character.



Not with me, but I suppose my intellectual and literary instinct doesn't count.

Posted by: museofhistory Mar 13 2006, 09:02 PM

What on earth are you talking about? I love having people who disagree to discuss things with!

I can see your thinking in demarcating the deaths of Cedric and Sirius based on relative 'belovedness' - or lack thereof - and your point about challenging reader preconceptions is no doubt valid. I am indeed nearly sure that Jo meant the events in the DoM to serve the latter purpose. However, I also personally think it's more complex - at face value, it almost seems trite and tacked-on (although the terms are rather pejorative). Further woe to heap upon our young protagonist and all that, and too basic a plot device.

I first started looking beyond the simple explanation for Sirius' death because of the scene's effect on me. If you'd asked me hypothetically pre-OOtP what my reaction might be to such an occurrence, I'd have replied along the lines of "Wailing, gnashing of teeth, throwing myself on the pyre...". However, when it came to it, I was curiously detached and even when it had sunk in the overriding feeling was of irritation rather than deep sadness. At first I concluded that the scene had been badly written, that the fact there wasn't much explanation of the Veil was a failing that resulted in the effect being greatly lessened. In more recent times I've arrived at a contrasting conviction, i.e. that Jo's not done there. I respect her as a writer, especially in her creation of wonderful set-pieces...the Chamber was terrifying, when Cedric died I felt exactly as I imagined Harry was feeling. With Sirius it was entirely different, almost as if it was intended that we become an observer to his grief. How many of us were shouting "But what about the mirror??!!" at the book way before he remembered it was in his trunk? How many have wondered why it wasn't mentioned throughout the whole of HBP? I think it's been left deliberately vague, and for a very good reason.

On a side note to do with some of your assertions; not quite sure what you mean about characters that 'must die dramatically' - do you mean because of sensationalism, internal logic, plot etc? I think there are arguments against DD's being described as such anyway in that it was heavily foreshadowed and evidently not quite as it seemed. I would suggest that Lily and James' deaths have indeed been experienced by Harry - he spent most of third year listening to it happen and we know that he often has dreams about it. Who knows how much - I'm inclined to think the whole event - is embedded in Harry's subconscious. He was after all over a year old at the time.

On the subject of Cedric and Sirius and how much they meant to him, well, while it's obvious that Sirius is a link to Harry's parents and the more important figure I think it's vital not to dismiss the former. I certainly wouldn't call him merely disposable myself, as I felt that Harry formed a strong bond over the fourth year as well as the eminently possible notion of previous Quidditch camaraderie. Hogwarts in all probability didn't have many students at the time, which strengthens it for me; when a girl in my (very large) school passed away the effect on the student population was deep and lasting. Yes, Cedric's death didn't make interesting whirlpools in the plot fabric, there aren't threads devoted to its dissection...but I don't think that means it wasn't important in the context of Harry's development and experiences. I told myself I wouldn't visit that considerably inelegant term bildungsroman but it does do a better job of describing the point of the HP series than most, I suppose. We know by now that he's a person with (excuse the expression, I'm well aware of how redolent of cheese it is) a lot of love, and I saw Cedric's death as all the more shocking and meaningful because of this. And that's before you consider all the guilt about indirectly being the cause.

I do apologise if that's all a bit rambly, but I felt some attempt at elucidation was needed (apologies once more for the terse nature of my earlier posts in this topic, didn't explain myself too well!). I'm also going to be annoyingly proleptic in blaming any and all errors on the late hour and my correspondingly muddled thinking. Shocking form, I know...what can I say, I'm a little rusty having done pure science for the past couple of years rather than proper subjects. I await your reply with interest.

Posted by: Kitiara Mar 19 2006, 06:25 PM

I dont think my wanting Sirius or Dumbledore to come back has as much to do with emotions.OK, so Harry has lost a lot of family he has not ever met and it really sucks to lose the people he cares about, but unless the veil is what separates the world of the living from the world of the dead, then there should be a possibility of Sirius coming back sometime in the near future. I hope.

At the very least, Harry should have the opportunity to see him through the veil. There is a definite lack of closure regarding Sirius being gone. At least w/ AD there was a funeral and people got to say good bye.

On a side note, wouldn't it be cool to have a book of Fred and George's version of Hogwarts?