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Let sleeping trolls lie, Order of the Phoenix and the 5th task to find the Philosopher's St
WaggaWaggaWerewo...
post Apr 27 2007, 06:07 PM
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TROLLS IN THE DUNGEON!


Throughout the previous Book Clubs, the seven tasks to retrieve the Philosopher’s Stone have foretold and linked into the sorts of adventures the trio faced in each of the other books in the Harry Potter series. Fluffy acted as a Hogwarts-style Cerberus, introducing the reader to the Devil’s Snare, put there by Hufflepuff’s Professor Sprout. Then Professor Flitwick, the head of the House of Ravenclaw, revealed to Harry in an overheard conversation at the Three Broomsticks pub, much about the Fidelius Charm as well as Peter Pettigrew’s supposed role in the betrayal of the Potters.

Professor McGonagall’s overgrown and transfigured Chess game, the next task, implied much about the Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire story. The Chess game, itself, like all such games, involves rivalry, motive, strategy, and adherence to the rules. For example, there were the chess pieces, black opposing white, lined up like enemy combatants in an ancient war-game. But Ron, who knew the rules, was able to read the board and direct Hermione and Harry accordingly. And so Hermione and Harry passed onto the next stage in their quest.

Which was a stinking, smelly troll, fortunately for Harry and Hermione, lying sound asleep. The troll Harry and Hermione had to get past in the fifth Philosopher Stone task was the defence of their first year DADA teacher, Quirrell, to stop anyone reaching the Philosopher’s Stone. Quirrell even mentioned his skill with trolls at the end of PS/SS, (UK ed. Ch 17, p. 210):

QUOTE
‘Certainly. I have a gift with trolls. You must have seen what I did to the one in the chamber back there? Unfortunately, while everyone else was running around looking for it, Snape, who already suspected me, went straight to the third floor to head me off- and not only did my troll fail to beat you to death, that three-headed dog didn’t even manage to bite Snape’s leg off properly.’


How do these smelly, stinking creatures influence the action in Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix? Where do they crop up throughout Book 5, and in what ways are this Defence Against the Dark Arts task particularly relevant to DADA as it is taught by one Professor Umbridge?

On the other hand, is Hermione’s and Harry’s passing the sleeping troll really the fifth task? Before the publication of the sixth book in the series, on July 16th 2005, one Mugglenet article did not see any connection between Order of the Phoenix and the fifth task to find the Philosopher’s Stone. They thought that Harry’s and Ron’s demolishing the troll in the girls’ bathroom was the first book task, reprised by the sleeping troll, and that the fifth task was actually Snape's potions task. What do you think?

And there is another parallel. When Harry, Ron, Hermione and Ginny found themselves visiting Gilderoy Lockhart in St Mungo’s, they revisited other Chamber of Secrets connections, such as a woman covered in fur, and barking like a dog. And there was a second task herbology connection, the cutting of Devil’s Snare, a Christmas gift. Finally, accompanied by his formidable grandmother, Neville, always best at herbology, who had tried to stop the trio from attempting to face the Philosopher’s Stone task, was visiting his parents, unable to remember and recognise him.

Was that particular encounter enough to reorganise the order of the Philosopher’s Stone tasks? Or was the reappearance of the Devil’s Snare, merely a horrible co-incidence?


This post has been edited by WaggaWaggaWerewolf: Apr 27 2007, 06:13 PM


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Granjo Granger
post Jun 14 2007, 05:41 PM
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QUOTE(gadigal ghoul @ Jun 13 2007, 02:48 AM) [snapback]1253684[/snapback]

QUOTE(WaggaWaggaWerewolf @ Jun 2 2007, 06:46 PM) [snapback]1238198[/snapback]
Harry's capacity to love certainly is a weakness if it leads him to believe, and act on lies. The dreams he was having may possibly have been a truthful insight into what LV was thinking and doing in the beginning, unintentionally on LV's part. But once LV got to know there was a connection, he exploited it to tell lies. Hermione, on the other hand, has learned to ask questions, and to try to find out the truth. I agree that Hermione had learned to be more objective since PS/SS, when she accepted the rules uncritically, and obeyed teachers accordingly. Of course Harry should have paid more attention to her objections to rushing off. But did her advice to check to see where Sirius was merely expose Harry to more lies?

And does Hermione think she is right all the time? Sometimes in OotP, we see another side to Hermione, which many query, such as her treatment of Rita Skeeter, of Marietta Edgecombe, and of Dolores Umbridge, herself, someone else who definitely thought she was right all the time. Whatever their reasons for doing so, who else besides Harry, believed and acted on lies?


I don't think Hermione thought she was right all the time though Dolores Umbridge definitely did. And she definitely believed a lie and acted on it. What about the Death Eaters? Bellatrix thought LV was pure blood. Did Bellatrix get rewarded fro faithful service? And what about the otehr DE's who got put back in Azkaban?


Please consider the reason that Hermione's advice to Harry resulted in his acting on lies about Sirius's whereabouts. It was not Hermione's fault that Kreacher told lies or that Harry believed them. He most unfortunately had forgotten that Kreacher had no obligation to tell him the truth.Somehow Harry is somewhat Don Quixote-ish in this book. He runs around fighting nonexistant foes.

I can comprehend what all of you are saying about trolls when I am reading it, but I sure don't see it for myself.

Back in PS/SS didn't the boys do something to stop the troll in the bathroom. It slowed the troll down so that an adult could dispatch it? I don't see anything as quite as clear cut as you do.


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gadigal ghoul
post Jun 14 2007, 09:11 PM
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QUOTE(Granjo Granger @ Jun 14 2007, 05:41 PM) [snapback]1256930[/snapback]

QUOTE(gadigal ghoul @ Jun 13 2007, 02:48 AM) [snapback]1253684[/snapback]
I don't think Hermione thought she was right all the time though Dolores Umbridge definitely did. And she definitely believed a lie and acted on it. What about the Death Eaters? Bellatrix thought LV was pure blood. Did Bellatrix get rewarded fro faithful service? And what about the otehr DE's who got put back in Azkaban?

Please consider the reason that Hermione's advice to Harry resulted in his acting on lies about Sirius's whereabouts. It was not Hermione's fault that Kreacher told lies or that Harry believed them. He most unfortunately had forgotten that Kreacher had no obligation to tell him the truth.Somehow Harry is somewhat Don Quixote-ish in this book. He runs around fighting nonexistant foes.


That is what the Daily Prophet would like the Wizarding World to think, isn't it? Yet Harry was telling the truth that LV had come. Hermione can't be blamed for Kreacher's behaviour.

QUOTE
I can comprehend what all of you are saying about trolls when I am reading it, but I sure don't see it for myself.

Back in PS/SS didn't the boys do something to stop the troll in the bathroom. It slowed the troll down so that an adult could dispatch it? I don't see anything as quite as clear cut as you do.


Ron hit the troll in the bathroom with its own club, using the Wingardium Leviosa spell. The troll in the 5th task was different. It ws bigger and Quirrell had already knocked it out so that it was lying on the floor. All Harry and Hermione had to do was pass it by, and somehow avoid the horrible troll smell.

I think that whoever started this thread was making a pun on the word to lie, which can mean to lie down, what the troll was doing, or could also mean to tell lies, stinking rotten lies. Umbridge made Harry carve into his hand "I must not tell lies".
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Posts in this topic
- WaggaWaggaWerewolf   Let sleeping trolls lie   Apr 27 2007, 06:07 PM
- - Nevermore   QUOTE In what ways are this Defence Against the Da...   May 1 2007, 11:40 AM
|- - WaggaWaggaWerewolf   QUOTE(Nevermore @ May 2 2007, 02:40 AM) 1...   May 1 2007, 05:48 PM
- - Oryx   QUOTEI'll go for the obvious first - there is ...   May 1 2007, 01:27 PM
- - SoonerGryffindor   Another point I would like to mention is that the ...   May 1 2007, 02:45 PM
- - Nevermore   WWW, those examples are fantastic! It was H...   May 2 2007, 06:57 PM
- - Spectre   What exactly did Dolohov's purple curse do to ...   May 4 2007, 05:50 AM
- - Nevermore   I don't know exactly - I always figured it was...   May 4 2007, 11:12 AM
- - Spectre   Avada Kedavra is green, not purple.   May 4 2007, 11:33 AM
- - fawkes28   This is a friendly modly reminder to stay on the t...   May 4 2007, 11:50 AM
- - Pyxis   I wonder if the troll could be the Ministry itself...   May 4 2007, 04:14 PM
|- - WaggaWaggaWerewolf   QUOTE(Pyxis @ May 5 2007, 07:14 AM) 12056...   May 4 2007, 09:05 PM
- - luvhp   This is my first post in a book club section!...   May 4 2007, 10:34 PM
|- - Dreamteam   QUOTE(luvhp @ May 5 2007, 04:34 AM) 12059...   May 5 2007, 06:50 AM
|- - WaggaWaggaWerewolf   QUOTE(luvhp @ May 5 2007, 01:34 PM) 12059...   May 8 2007, 06:07 AM
|- - Nevermore   QUOTE(WaggaWaggaWerewolf @ May 8 2007, 07...   May 8 2007, 10:10 AM
|- - Sethtaylorsummer   QUOTE(Nevermore @ May 9 2007, 03:10 AM) 1...   May 9 2007, 06:42 AM
|- - Nevermore   QUOTE(Sethtaylorsummer @ May 9 2007, 07:4...   May 9 2007, 12:21 PM
|- - WaggaWaggaWerewolf   QUOTE(Nevermore @ May 10 2007, 03:21 AM) ...   May 13 2007, 07:03 PM
|- - Nevermore   QUOTE(WaggaWaggaWerewolf @ May 13 2007, 08...   May 13 2007, 11:15 PM
|- - WaggaWaggaWerewolf   QUOTE(Nevermore @ May 14 2007, 02:15 PM) ...   May 19 2007, 04:03 AM
- - The Sportz Freak   QUOTEYour ideas do make a lot of sense. But there ...   May 8 2007, 06:58 AM
- - jslotter2004   I'm not really sure I subscribe to this theory...   May 19 2007, 05:24 AM
- - Nevermore   I think your theory is very well thought out and i...   May 22 2007, 10:07 PM
- - rowena r   I'm afraid I have to disagree with you Nevermo...   May 23 2007, 11:08 AM
- - Nevermore   I see what you're saying Rowena - I was lookin...   May 24 2007, 01:34 AM
- - rowena r   Nevermore, I agree that Harry does have a 'sav...   May 24 2007, 09:13 AM
|- - Nevermore   QUOTE(rowena r @ May 24 2007, 10:13 AM) 1...   May 29 2007, 09:49 AM
|- - WaggaWaggaWerewolf   QUOTE(rowena r @ May 25 2007, 12:13 AM) 1...   Jun 2 2007, 06:46 PM
|- - gadigal ghoul   QUOTE(WaggaWaggaWerewolf @ Jun 2 2007, 06...   Jun 13 2007, 01:48 AM
- - shantih   I've never seen any similarities between the 7...   May 29 2007, 08:38 AM
- - rowena r   QUOTE(Nevermore @ May 29 2007, 09:49 AM) ...   May 29 2007, 10:30 AM


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